Ok, relevant rules
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Combat Expertise (Combat)
You can increase your defense at the expense of your accuracy.
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
So I have a level 16 monk. My BAB is +12. That means I get -4/+8 from power attack and -4/+4 from combat expertise. Now when I flurry, for the purpose of my attacks, my BAB goes up to +16. Does this increase in BAB effect my power attacks and/or combat expertise?
I'd have to agree. For those attacks, your BAB is higher, and should use the increased effects. (I'm presuming you wouldn't try to use both Power Attack and Combat Expertise on the same round...'cause that would suck...)
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Quote, "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus." I'm choosing to see the Power Attack changes as a tiered feat. Thus for the purpose of the feat, your BAB is 12, not 16. Same would go for Combat Expertise.
Regardless, check with your GM. In the end, it's their call.
That quote says "for the purposes of qualifying for feats", not for the purpose of using them.
Also a tricky one and really nice question.I think that this needs an official answer and everything that i'll say is just my opinion.
A 16 lvl monk using power attack takes -4/+8 because his BAB is 12. Only for hitting with flurry his BAB becomes equal to his lvl. Gaining more bonus from a feat i think is like qualifying for the feat and the ability's description clearly states that for qualifying you use your class BAB not the flurry BAB.
I think that flurry of blows is poorly written and should say that your BAB stays the same but you gain bonus to hit as if you where using a full BAB class with two weapon fighting feats.
My interpretation is that since your BAB is considered higher for those attacks, things that trigger off BAB use the higher value.
I agree that you have to "decide" before attacking. So, when you "decide" to use PA, the penalty is initially set (at -3).
However, PA's wording include "when your BAB reaches +4", which is pretty clear to me. When you flurry, your BAB "reaches" a new value.
So, "for the purpose of these attacks," you have a greater impact. And a greater penalty too.
I'm of the opinion that your BAB is considered higher for those attacks, so feats that care about your BAB will treat your BAB as higher, as well.
After all, I think we all agree that for the Improved and Greater TWF use, the monk gets reduced attacks according to their flurry BAB. I don't see why other feats shouldn't work the same way.
At some point (possibly soon) I'm liable to come up against this same question as I have a monk PC in my new campaign. Until I see otherwise, though, I'll just assume that Power Attack is based off of the normal BAB printed for the monk rather than the modified FoB BAB.
For those interpreting the ruling that FoB BAB is what should be used, when would a monk qualify to take the feat in the first place? Would it be level 4 (+3 BAB or +4 FoB BAB) or level 6 (+4 BAB)? I'm just curious. Thanks!
At some point (possibly soon) I'm liable to come up against this same question as I have a monk PC in my new campaign. Until I see otherwise, though, I'll just assume that Power Attack is based off of the normal BAB printed for the monk rather than the modified FoB BAB.
For those interpreting the ruling that FoB BAB is what should be used, when would a monk qualify to take the feat in the first place? Would it be level 4 (+3 BAB or +4 FoB BAB) or level 6 (+4 BAB)? I'm just curious. Thanks!
I'm not sure what you mean by your question, because both PA and Combat Expertise require a +1 BAB, not a +4. What we are saying is that at lvl 4, when you are using FoB, your power attack gets the increase in penalty/bonus, but your normal attack does not until lvl 6.
For purposes of qualifying for the feat, it is explicitly stated that you cannot use the FoB BAB, so you would not qualify for it until lvl 2 and would not be able to take it until lvl 3, when your normal BAB is high enough and you have a feat free.
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
ALL OTHER PURPOSES includes feat activation, because that is what ALL OTHER means.
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.ALL OTHER PURPOSES includes feat activation, because that is what ALL OTHER means.
You're right. I was thinking of something else entirely. Oops! Just ignore the question in my previous post hehe. That also clarifies that a monk cannot take Power Attack at level 1. Thanks!
EDIT: Thanks to you, too, Caineach!
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.ALL OTHER PURPOSES includes feat activation, because that is what ALL OTHER means.
I interpret the " the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." as the important part because that is where power attack will trigger off of. The examples they give are all for out of combat things, not in combat when attacking. Its like SLA in my mind, where the caster level is there but can't be used to qualify for feats or prestige classes.
For the record, I think the monk would get the higher power attack/expertise, but there is enough ambiguity I though I would ask the question, and get some thoughts.
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.ALL OTHER PURPOSES includes feat activation, because that is what ALL OTHER means.
+1. That's how we read it too.
The examples "such as ..." are not exhaustive. All other purposes probably mean all other purposes. The rules are vaugue. Same problem with Vital Strike. FAQ is needed.Also, no need to nerf the flurry of misses even more. Let all other purposes mean all other purposes ;-)
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.ALL OTHER PURPOSES includes feat activation, because that is what ALL OTHER means.+1. That's how we read it too.
The examples "such as ..." are not exhaustive. All other purposes probably mean all other purposes. The rules are vaugue. Same problem with Vital Strike. FAQ is needed.
Also, no need to nerf the flurry of misses even more. Let all other purposes mean all other purposes ;-)
Yes, but combat expertise and Power attack are both abilities that are used as part of an attack, thus the "For purposes of these attacks" is very applicable.
I saw this in a couple other threads as well. I am replying to this one since it was a post that was just about this issue.
We could use an official ruling, so let's hit the FAQ button.
I personally see it since his BAB actually changes that power attack woudl be based off his flurry BAB.
The part about for all other purposes is for stuff like improved critical, etc.
Power Attack and Combat Expertise looks at the BAB when used. So the Monk declares flurry (his BAB changes) before he rolls his attack he declares use of PA or CE which then looks at his BAB and acts accordingly.
Since it is a grey area we need some official word on this. Looks like there are two distinct views on it, and cannot be resolved without Developer input.
Yes, but combat expertise and Power attack are both abilities that are used as part of an attack, thus the "For purposes of these attacks" is very applicable.
IMHO this is the key. The feats modify the attack action and the full attack and are strictly influenced by the BAB in that moment.
IMHO, the monk should get full PA when flurrying.
My interpretation is that since your BAB is considered higher for those attacks, things that trigger off BAB use the higher value.
Going to add a +1 here. It says 'for the purpose of the attacks'. That would indicate to me that effects or feats which key off the BAB would indeed change for those attacks. It is just you still need your normal BAB value, the one you have as a constant, to learn new feats, etc. with.
Can you Combat Expertise AND power attack at the same time?
Can you Combat Expertise AND power attack at the same time?
There is nothing I am aware of in the rules suggesting you cannot.
Said this, unless you are hevily buffed by spellcasters or items the penalty can be just too high to be affordable.
By level 12 is a -8 to every attack. Maybe a fighter moving and attacking a dangerous opponent could swap his + 25 for a +17 and hope rolling high (CR 12- 14 average AC is 27-29 according to monster creation rules).
Can you Combat Expertise AND power attack at the same time?
Yes, you can add Fight Defensively in there too if you wanted.
If your BAB was 8 you would be at a -10 to hit +6 to damage +5 AC.
Unless you are fighting zombies or other creatures with very low AC I do not think you would want to do it, but you could!
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
At this point in time only 5 people have pressed the FAQ button.
Let's get a bunch more presses so we can get the devs to answer this one.
Thanks!
