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I have a player who really wants to delve into the magic system. He started as a cleric of Pharasma, but over time has realised that he really would prefer to be a cleric of Nethys/Wizard hoping to become a Mystic Theurge.
I'd really like to give him some help to realise his character concept and feel useful in the campaign (running Kingmaker by the by).
So here's his build so far:
Lvl 1 Cleric (just enough xp to hit level 2)
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 15
1. What advice would you give this player?
(If your advice is: "Don't play a mystic theurge" then you're not helping.)
2. He wants to keep the Knowledge Domain, what other domain should he take (from either Nethys or Pharasma)?
3. Finally, since I'm the GM, I'm not averse to tweaking the Mystic Theurge prestige class (from pre-reqs to class features), if there's REALLY no way to make the class useful in the campaign then what changes should I make?
I'd probably reduce the spellcasting requirements to CL 2 of each of arcane and divine casting. It's a bit of a departure from the standard PrC style of requirements (usually by spell levels) but this way sorcerers can have a go at it, too.
Practiced Spellcaster feat or Magical Knack trait can help this kind of character a lot.
I use the following feat in my campaign, and have removed the PrC.
It works better for those who are planning a straight even advancement (ie, those who would be Wiz5/Clr5/MT10 at 20th level), and not at all for those who want to dip one and focus on the other.
Mystic Theurge
You have combined the paths of arcane and divine magic, blah blah.
Prereq Able to cast 1st level arcane spells, able to cast 1st level divine spells.
Benefit: Choose an arcane casting class. Choose a divine casting class. For the purposes of caster level in each class, these two classes stack. For the purposes of spell acquisition, every two levels in your divine casting class increases your arcane spellcasting access by one level and vice versa.
Special: Those who do not keep their two classes within a single level of each other apply a penalty to caster level for every level of difference beyond 1.
Now, for those who realize at say, level 8, that they want to begin the multiclass, I defer the Special penalty so long as they take classes towards balancing the build out.
To explain, I would let a 6th level cleric taking a level of wizard (at 7th level) to take this feat. I wouldn't apply the penalty. As long as the character agreed to keep taking wizard levels up to 6 before taking more cleric levels, I wouldn't inflict the caster level penalty.
Yes, that would mean that a Clr6/Wiz1 would have 6th level cleric casting at caster level 7, and 4th level wizard casting at caster level 7. I'm ok with that, personally. We've got a character in my campaign running a similar feat that lets him do the same with wizard and sorcerer. He isn't overpowered in the slightest, and he's 11th level. (don't remember if that is wiz5/sor6 or vice versa, but it is 8th level spell access and 11th caster level in both classes.)
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Well, let's start with the basics. I'll assume a 20 point buy.
First, race. Go with dwarf, take Magical Knack and the Perception base as your two traits; or magical knack for both classes if gM is generous.
Stats:
Str: 7 Int: 16 Wis: 19 Dex: 10 Con: 16 Chr: 5
He may not like the uber-dump of Cha, but honestly the theurge needs all the stat points he can scrounge.
Divination is a good path for him; as the 1st level power is amazing. Cleric choose to flavor, though Liberty/Travel are always good (if you want highest power).
Focus on spells with less level-dependent features, and buffs. The high HP and great saves will help make the character survivable.
If you wanted to try to improve the class for. him without "busting" him:
*Let levels of Theurge stack with Wizard for "Specialist" ability; and Cleric for "Divine Channeling". The latter will keep him mostly on par for healing.
*Let Magical Knack work for both of his classes
*Require only 2 levels of one of the classes to qualify. 1 is too few, but being down "only" 2 levels (or exactly 1 spell level) will bring their power to bear better.
I just rule that all character's have one caster level and all caster levels stack. I also allow non-casters to add their class level -3 to the caster level of any caster class they have.
So if you are a Cleric 3/Wizard 3 you have 2nd level spells in both, but they are at caster level 6. If you are a Wizard 5/Ranger 4/Arcane Archer 3 you have 4th level Wizard Spells, 1st level Ranger Spells and your caster level for all spells is 8th (5 Wizard +1 Ranger +2 Arcane Archer = 8). A Fighter 5/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 8 would cast 6th level spells and have a caster level of 15 (6 Sorcerer +2 Fighter +7 Eldritch Knight = 15).
I've seen plenty of Theurges in action, and I'm not convinced that a lot of help is needed. They do play differently than a straight caster, and if the player doesn't adjust to that, the theurge always feels underpowered.
1) Get there as fast as you can. Even the difference between wizard and sorceror (spells a level later) is HUGE. Avoid at all costs.
2) Think of yourself not as a sledgehammer, but as a toolbox. Have a wide variety of spells, and know them all inside and out.
3) Crafting feats are a great choice. You should use that scribe scroll all the time, and you'll be able to make just about anything else you want with the appropriate feat.
4) It's often helpful to avoid X,Y,X,Y levelling. I'd suggest Cleric 1, Wizard 1-5, and then double back for the remaining cleric levels. Even if you only go Wizard 1-3, it's useful to get higher level spells in a hurry.
5) Look for spells that don't have DCs, you'll never be good at that. Or find spells that have an effect even with a save, like ray of enfeeblement.
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I think there's a big fallacy in thinking here. Many think the Theurge is a toolbox, and has more spells. These really aren't true; in many other threads they do the math... straight casters end up with fractionally less spells, and of course higher levels yields more diversity.
If they're looking for a solid healer/arcane support, might I propose the witch? I think the witch class is the perfect blend of cleric and wizard in a straight-class character, and gets to be that way the whole time. Much of what people always wanted to accomplish is taken care of there.
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I have played a mystic theurge in 3.5, and I currently am playing one in Pathfinder Society organized play.
My 3.5 mystic theurge had 3 levels of cloistered cleric, and 3 levels of wizard, and by the end of the campaign got up to 4 levels of Mystic theurge.
I can recommend the practiced spell caster feat.
We were playing in Ptolus. My character was a cleric of Sylvanus, an elven deity of magic. (he was an elf)
Currently I am playing a Cleric of Pharasma 3 Wizard specialty Necromancy 3, and 3 levels of Mystic theurge.
From my previous character I found it was best to do damage spells that required saving throws. His attack bonus sucked. Also the Mystic Theurge excels as a Party Buffer.
I found this combination devastating. Round 1 Haste the party. Round 2 cast spell Recitation or (prayer), Round 3 Cast Slow on opponents, Round 4 cast bless on party, Round 5 Cast Bane on opponents.
If the enemies were still standing, then I would use magic missile spells to finish them off.
In crafting my current character, he excels at dealing with the undead. However I made the mistake of choosing Conjuration and Transmutation as my forbidden schools. Please don’t make that mistake for yourself.
I don’t think anything needs to be changed for the mystic theurge. If you adjust the level requirements, then there wouldn’t be any point in playing a single classed wizard or cleric.
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All right, all of that is 3.5, and why I'm happy we don't have many splatbooks for Pathfinder. Also, you're talking high level (10th) before you can pull off that combo; a travel domain cleric could do it at 7th.. as a quickened action if we go all-out splatbook power and divine metamagic quicken. The point is, to even get any feeling of payoff means hurting from levels 4-10. Hurting a lot. Between 5 and 7 you feel almost worthless (at 8 haste finally comes online).
The theurge is VERY tough; one of my players playing one is feeling overwhelmed, simply because of how far behind he is. If the rest of your group are lower on the "power gaming" scale, that will help a lot.
Finally, since I'm the GM, I'm not averse to tweaking the Mystic Theurge prestige class (from pre-reqs to class features), if there's REALLY no way to make the class useful in the campaign then what changes should I make?
The best houserule to making a MT i have seen was:
Changed it to a 18 level prestige class that got bad BAB, good will bad fort and reflex saves, 2+ skill points per level. Prereq's was ability to cast Divine and Arcane spells. Spell progression went like
Arcane/Divine
1 - +1/+1
2 - +1/+1
3 - +1/+1
4 - +1/+1
5 - +1/+1
6 - +1/+1
7 - No increase in caster level
8 - +1/+1
9 - +1/+1
10 - +1/+1
11 - +1/+1
12 - +1/+1
13 - +1/+1
14 - No increase in caster level
15 - +1/+1
16 - +1/+1
17 - +1/+1
18 - +1/+1
The CapStone would be 9th level spells in both types at level 20. Also you can sprinkle in the class features of Combined Spells and Spell Synthesis in where you see fit. I would put Combined Spells (1st) at MT level 4, and then again every two levels. Spell Synthesis I would give at level 7, with one extra use at levels 14 and 18. Just to have something so those are not dead levels. This was partially stolen from Kyrt-ryder on THIS thread. That thread also has other ideas on this subject.
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That's actually really solid; only 1 level behind on spells till they get 4th level access, and at the higher levels when it matters most it switches over. I like that a lot actually; you could even make it a full base class, give it d6 every 3 level healing and one domain of their choice; in exchange they get full caster level for all spells (level 1 and 2 would be +1/+0 and +0/+1). Also by making it base it can be a favored class for HP purposes.
The Mystic Theurge does have more diversity. They get all of the Wizard versatility plus they get the spells the Wizard wishes he had. Cures, heals, restoration, invisibility purge, freedom of movement, death ward, etc.
An important thing to consider is party makeup. If you have a full class caster in the party then the Mystic Theurge may suffer by comparison, but if he is the only caster then he has doubled his face time. He is now both the Wizard AND the Cleric.
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A big mix of advice so far.
Some clarifications:
1. This is for one of the PCs in a campaign that I'm running. I won't be playing the character, but he has his heart set on the concept. I'd rather find a way to make the concept of a mystic theurge work than tell him to re-roll a witch. He's already played a few adventures as a cleric, he didn't plan on Mystic Theurge on character creation, it's just an outgrowth of his character.
2. So to those people that have been satisfied with the mystic theurge, was there anything you would improve?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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This is possibly off topic, but one option is the Pathfinder Savant PrC. You get to add either divine or arcane spells to your spell list. I think it does a great job of letting you add the cool diversity of spell types without requiring great ability scores or missing a ton of levels.
Mystic Theurge
You have combined the paths of arcane and divine magic, blah blah.
Prereq Able to cast 1st level arcane spells, able to cast 1st level divine spells.
Benefit: Choose an arcane casting class. Choose a divine casting class. For the purposes of caster level in each class, these two classes stack. For the purposes of spell acquisition, every two levels in your divine casting class increases your arcane spellcasting access by one level and vice versa.
Special: Those who do not keep their two classes within a single level of each other apply a penalty to caster level for every level of difference beyond 1.
As the player in question, I've rather enjoyed this feat.
My personal recomendation is to use undead. Im not sure if it still works in pathfinder, but in 3.5 when you had seperate caster classes, they tracked spell limits sepereatly. This meant that that you could basicly double the HD of undead you controll via spells like controll undead and animate dead by casting them using both your wizard levels and your cleric levels.
I played a theurge using that tactic and had 4 zombie dragons at my beck and call. Just make sure to take practiced spellcaster on at least one side, and keep a supply of onyx gems on you at all times. Then your wide spell selection lets you buff your personal army easily.
EDIT: And if you channel negative energy as a cleric, you can controll some more like that.
I have a player who really wants to delve into the magic system. He started as a cleric of Pharasma, but over time has realised that he really would prefer to be a cleric of Nethys/Wizard hoping to become a Mystic Theurge.
I'd really like to give him some help to realise his character concept and feel useful in the campaign (running Kingmaker by the by).
So here's his build so far:
Lvl 1 Cleric (just enough xp to hit level 2)
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 151. What advice would you give this player?
(If your advice is: "Don't play a mystic theurge" then you're not helping.)
2. He wants to keep the Knowledge Domain, what other domain should he take (from either Nethys or Pharasma)?
3. Finally, since I'm the GM, I'm not averse to tweaking the Mystic Theurge prestige class (from pre-reqs to class features), if there's REALLY no way to make the class useful in the campaign then what changes should I make?
1. Stick with cleric until 3rd level, then switch to wizard for three levels to qualify for mystic theurge. With those physical stats, don't bother with trying to act as a main combatant. Invest in item creation feats: take Craft Wondrous Item as your 3rd level feat and then you pick up Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat when you switch to wizard. Go with a bonded item instead of a familiar and select a school to specialize (for the extra spell slots). Choose your specialty and opposition schools to compliment your cleric domains (and vice versa). The Magical Knack trait (or the 3.5 Practiced Spellcaster feat, if allowed) helps keep the proto mystic theurge a lot; with it, you can take Craft Wand at 5th level (cleric 3/wizard 2) which allows you to make your own wands of cure light wounds, wands of magic missile, wands of lesser restoration, wands of scorching ray, etc. Be aware that the most difficult levels for a (proto) mystic theurge are 5th-7th, but with the appropriate preparation and self-crafted items can be useful and versatile characters.
2. Magic or Protection are good domain choices. With the Magic domain and specializing in the Divination school, the character will be a tremendous resource for collecting information. Protection can increase your survivability.
3. A properly prepared mystic theurge can be useful in a very wide range of situations. They may not be able to overwhelm an encounter as easily as a straight primary caster, but they should almost always be able to do something useful.
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Nethys with Knowledge/Magic domains is a classic MT build for a cleric. I like it a lot. I too recommend staying cleric through to 3rd level, unless the party is really needy for an arcanist. As a DM, it would be really nice to allow MT levels to stack for domain and school purposes. Since Pathfinder came out, I usually have wizards with item bond, but this time, I'm thinking the familiar is better. The MT shouldn't sacrifice any body slots for magic items. He'll want them all, since he has access to a wide variety. Also, the familiar moving in to deliver touch spells is a dream with so many cleric spells with a range of touch.
Also, the familiar moving in to deliver touch spells is a dream with so many cleric spells with a range of touch.
Two words: spectral hand.
Unless your GM allows your mystic theurge levels to stack with wizard levels for familiar advancement, the familiar is less useful than a bonded item and scribing a few scrolls of spectral hand. Selecting a staff as the bonded item doesn't limit the body slots, either. It also gives you a bit of leeway in feat selection, since you can enchant it as a weapon without needing Craft Magic Arms and Armor (at cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 2) and/or as a magic staff without Craft Staff (at cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 8; if you have the Magical Knack (Cleric) trait, then you can take the feat at mystic theurge 7 and make other staves, too).
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In Pathfinder, the Mystic Theurge just feels too crippled for me. Loosing advancement in Channel Energy, Domain powers, familiars, etc just seems too costly. So, I went through the thought exercise of trying to bring the theurge back up to par using a new feat. It still needs more work in toning down a bit.
Feat: Focused Studies
Prereq: Multiclass caster
Stack: Yes
Because of your split attention in multiclassing, one needs to focus on specific class features to advance them. Taking this feat allows advancing a primary class feature of one currently held class by one level or advancing a secondary class feature by two class levels. No class feature level can exceed the total character levels.
Cleric primary: Spell casting
Cleric secondary: Channel Energy or Domain powers
Wizard primary: Spell casting
Wizard secondary: familiar or school powers
Sorcerer primary: spell casting
Sorcerer secondary: bloodline powers
Druid primary: Spell casting
Druid secondary: companion or wild shape
Summoner primary: Eidolon
Summoner secondary: spell casting or ediolon/summoner links
Oracle and Witch: similar
By using the feat multiple times, a character can backfill the class features that are important to them without becoming the overpowered monster of a gestalt.
Examples:
Classic: Cleric 3, Wizard 3, MT5 at 11th level with feats of
Selective Channel, Focused Studies(Channel Energy)x4, Focused Studies(Divine Spells) would be effectively a Wizard caster 8, Cleric spellcaster 9 and channel energy at 11th level, but domain powers and possible familiar stuck at 3rd. A very powerful healer and caster.
Interesting: Druid 4, Sorcerer 4, MT 3 at 11th level with feats of
Boon Companion, Focused Studies(Sorc Casting), Natural Spell, Focused Studies(Wild shape), Focuses Studies(Sorc Casting), Focused Studies(Companion) would effectively be a Druid caster 7, sorcerer caster 9, with bloodline powers at 4th, an animal companion at 10th and wild shaping at 6th.
Or just a Dipper: Human Cleric 1, Summoner 10 at 11th level with feats of Spell Focus(Conj)(h), Augment Summoning, Focus Studies(Channel Energy)x5 would be a summoner and eidolon behind by one level, with cleric 1 casting, but Channel Energy 11.
Ok. That one just blows the power curve. But it would give the summoner something to do while the eidolon is mauling everything is sight.
As the player in question, I've rather enjoyed this feat.
Mystic Theurge
You have combined the paths of arcane and divine magic, blah blah.
Prereq Able to cast 1st level arcane spells, able to cast 1st level divine spells.
Benefit: Choose an arcane casting class. Choose a divine casting class. For the purposes of caster level in each class, these two classes stack. For the purposes of spell acquisition, every two levels in your divine casting class increases your arcane spellcasting access by one level and vice versa.
Special: Those who do not keep their two classes within a single level of each other apply a penalty to caster level for every level of difference beyond 1.
I'm definitely going to suggest you adopt this feat fast for your player. I mean ... like super-fast! It's great for the concept.
I have to say that lowering the pre-reqs of entry to the PrC will NOT be a bad idea - caster level of 2 in both mage/cleric = level 4 character (w/level 2 abilities in either, though ==> trouble already anyway by comparison to more complimentary class combinations). So, yeah - it's NEVER a bad thing to let the theurge 'get there' faster than normal.
My other suggestion is going to sound wild beyond wild, though - you *could* just have him BEGIN play with the PrC levels only. Ie: just start out as a level 1 Theurge and run for the 10 levels *as* a theurge, and then try to focus from that point forward on one or the other class, or a mix of both. The advantage here is that you don't *really* have to worry too much about the theurge trying to keep up to get to his concept. I'd suggest "average" stats, though, not serious dumps left and right to str/cha and the like. Say 16's top in his casting stats or so and let the rest of his character progression be about upping those stats.
Just a totally outside suggestion there - but it'll work pretty well I'd guess.
personally I am a fan of the magic rating system or a similar mechanic, this is mainly beneficial for multi-class casters making them a bit more viable and keeps the MT from taking mandatory traits or feats on upping his/her casterlevel.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm
I am using a simpler version just counting caster classes as +1 CL and other classes as +1/2 CL, mainly to keep things simple for my players.
I just rule that all character's have one caster level and all caster levels stack. I also allow non-casters to add their class level -3 to the caster level of any caster class they have.
So if you are a Cleric 3/Wizard 3 you have 2nd level spells in both, but they are at caster level 6. If you are a Wizard 5/Ranger 4/Arcane Archer 3 you have 4th level Wizard Spells, 1st level Ranger Spells and your caster level for all spells is 8th (5 Wizard +1 Ranger +2 Arcane Archer = 8). A Fighter 5/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 8 would cast 6th level spells and have a caster level of 15 (6 Sorcerer +2 Fighter +7 Eldritch Knight = 15).
I also like this solution quite a lot, actually.
I've seen MT's played effectively in 3.5 and have no reason to believe that they'd be much weaker in PF excepting the decrease in available spells. The MT is pretty good at high levels. It does have a really weak spot around levels 5-9 though. If you're planning to play levels 1-10 only that could be pretty painful. If you're playing 1-20 it isn't quite so bad.
Throwing in a magic item or two to prop up the PC during the weak levels is probably easier than rewriting the PrC and possibly ending up with something over the top. A wand or two would probably do the trick. A metamagic rod would help a lot too.
Even without those props the MT can probably be reasonably effective with the right spell selection. All of this assumes that you allow the Practiced Spellcaster feat or at least the PF trait which grants +2 caster levels. Without that the MT will really stink.
The player needs either the Magical Knack trait for each class, or else the Practised Caster feat twice. Without it they will struggle due to lack of casting levels. With it, they will be fine.
For a specialist wizard theurge, what would be a good choice of opposition schools?
I'd try enchantment; pretty much everything these has a save, and abjuration; it seems to overlap too much with the cleric spell list.
Thoughts anyone?