Arizona law enforcement not enforcing the Federal laws? I'm not sure what you are discussing here.I said law enforcement personnel in Arizona, which would include Federal law enforcement? Or are there not any in Arizona?
Do they answer to Arizona law enforcement agencies? If not, again, I am not sure what you are discussing here.
Well, I'm not American, so the breakdown in responsibilities between the Federal and State laws and law enforcement is not immediately obvious, especially in this case.
So, the actual holding of the border itself is the responsibility of the US Border Patrol, which is a Federal institution. Once these illegal immigrants/drug smugglers are across the border and within Arizona proper, they are then liable to intercept by the Arizona police force. But what is complicating this particular case is that the area where these smugglers/people traffickers are operating is Federal-reserved parkland, where the Arizona police force do not have jurisdiction at all? Is that the case?
So, if this is the case, what reason is there for Federal law enforcement operating within Arizona not to have dealt with the problem, and if these people are on Federal land where Arizona law enforcement cannot operate, what effect would changing Arizona's laws have at all on this particular issue? Presumably Arizona could change its laws authorising the use of nuking sites of criminal activity from orbit, and it still wouldn't make a difference to this issue, as it's on land where Arizonan law does not hold sway? Or is this not the case?
you know, I had a really clever and witty reply to this thread
but then realised it would be seen as trolling
That's not stopping anyone else. Nor a lack of cleverness or wit. :)
That's not stopping anyone else. Nor a lack of cleverness or wit. :)
Yeah! Just look at me.
|
It's not a tangential issue. Our lack of border security is the root cause of both issues. They are, in this part of the country intertwined.Hilarious. Our lack of border security is the "root cause" of Mexican drug cartel violence. So thousands of Mexicans formed criminal gangs, not to profit by selling illegal drugs here, but because we have bad border security. So if the demand for drugs dropped to zero tomorrow, Mexican drug cartels would go on as before?
Is this how you imagine it going down?:
(Mysteriously spoken, of course, in broken English)
Hey ese*, those gringos has lousy border security. That makes me want to form a gang.Okay, ese; but only if we kill a bunch of people.*Everyone knows criminals from Mexico say this constantly. Duh.
What I love about this is apparently that is one brown criminal saying that to himself :D
That's not stopping anyone else. Nor a lack of cleverness or wit. :)Yeah! Just look at me.
And me.
What I love about this is apparently that is one brown criminal saying that to himself :DIt's not a tangential issue. Our lack of border security is the root cause of both issues. They are, in this part of the country intertwined.Hilarious. Our lack of border security is the "root cause" of Mexican drug cartel violence. So thousands of Mexicans formed criminal gangs, not to profit by selling illegal drugs here, but because we have bad border security. So if the demand for drugs dropped to zero tomorrow, Mexican drug cartels would go on as before?
Is this how you imagine it going down?:
(Mysteriously spoken, of course, in broken English)
Hey ese*, those gringos has lousy border security. That makes me want to form a gang.Okay, ese; but only if we kill a bunch of people.*Everyone knows criminals from Mexico say this constantly. Duh.
Not only is he a criminal, but he's got multiple personalities. :P
Do you know how much money it takes to legally immigrate? thousands of dollars per person, it can take decades for 1 person to immigrate and then make enough money to bring the rest of their family over. There needs to be reform, major reform, and part of that reform needs to be reduction in application fees that fuel the bureaucracy.
I've been saying that for years. If the system weren't insane, people wouldn't accept illegal immigration and illegal immigrants: They'd ask why the immigrants couldn't come here legally.
Not if I have access to a hot poker, I think the poker to the eyes would be preferable.
I'm too sexy for your eyes…too sexy for your eyes…poor little optic organs.
Not only is he a criminal, but he's got multiple personalities. :P
Then he's obviously not from Mexico. Everyone knows the insane ones are from Cuba.
Not only is he a criminal, but he's got multiple personalities. :PThen he's obviously not from Mexico. Everyone knows the insane ones are from Cuba.
Or Texas. Or Florida (where I live).
I've actually been camping near the area described. My kid's church Bible study group went there regularly. The group used to have trouble with cross-border criminals victimizing them and swiping their stuff, so they adopted the practice of posting multiple sentries all night and visibly arming every man with a rifle or shotgun and a sidearm.
For some reason, the criminals left the group alone after that.
You're a FL? what part?Or Texas. Or Florida (where I live).Not only is he a criminal, but he's got multiple personalities. :PThen he's obviously not from Mexico. Everyone knows the insane ones are from Cuba.
Fort Myers.
I've actually been camping near the area described. My kid's church Bible study group went there regularly. The group used to have trouble with cross-border criminals victimizing them and swiping their stuff, so they adopted the practice of posting multiple sentries all night and visibly arming every man with a rifle or shotgun and a sidearm.
For some reason, the criminals left the group alone after that.
Swiping stuff in what sense? Gypsy(Is OUR ball now!) or Thug(worshipper of Kali)?
|
It may be a trans-atlantic issue, but using Gypsy in that context could be seen as racist
Swiping stuff in what sense? Gypsy(Is OUR ball now!) or Thug(worshipper of Kali)?
That would be a trans-atlantic issue. Most Americans aren't aware that Gypsy can refer to an actual ethnic group. As it is, any Romani who actually come to the US wind up getting lumped in as "white" in a demographic sense, so the whole issue tends to make Americans scratch their heads (the few that actually pay attention to European news, that is).
It may be a trans-atlantic issue, but using Gypsy in that context could be seen as racist
Swiping stuff in what sense? Gypsy(Is OUR ball now!) or Thug(worshipper of Kali)?
Strangely enough, I used the word gypsy to NOT be insulting to anyone of Rom descent(who I understood have taken pains to remove themselves from the term and dont' take offense so long as it is not used to refer to them personally). I guess I got it twisted a bit. Sorry about that!
Owner - Round Table Games
|
Or do you honestly believe that you can divine something about my character solely from the fact that I once received a photo-radar ticket?
Seems like a lop-sided argument. Not all crimes are created equal.
Character? No. Actions? Yes. I can divine that you once were accused of speeding. Assuming you still have a license I also assume you do not do it/get caught on a regular basis.
In the country illegally? Continued action that is against the law. Other character judegments don't come into it. Stop breaking our law. Seems simple enough.
Seems like a lop-sided argument. Not all crimes are created equal.
Which is exactly my point. For some reason, people keep trying to imply that illegal immigrants are indistinguishable from murdering drug lords by putting everyone into "lawbreaker" or "not lawbreaker" buckets.
Character? No. Actions? Yes. I can divine that you once were accused of speeding. Assuming you still have a license I also assume you do not do it/get caught on a regular basis.In the country illegally? Continued action that is against the law. Other character judegments don't come into it. Stop breaking our law. Seems simple enough. .
I get it; they're breaking the law. SO WHAT?!? I'd do the same in their shoes. It simply doesn't follow that they're bad people.
There is a human trafficking element as well, which feeds into illegal immigration, although the money the smugglers get from this is peanuts compared to what they get for drugs.Wow, you have no idea, do you?
Something like 15-20k per head, and the "coyotes" sometimes leave them in the middle of the desert to die...sometimes still locked in a semi trailer...
Not a nice way to go, especially if you paid them so much cash...
There is a human trafficking element as well, which feeds into illegal immigration, although the money the smugglers get from this is peanuts compared to what they get for drugs.Wow, you have no idea, do you?Something like 15-20k per head, and the "coyotes" sometimes leave them in the middle of the desert to die...sometimes still locked in a semi trailer...
Not a nice way to go, especially if you paid them so much cash...
Human trafficking is a better payday for a certainty, but the risks involved as well as the financial unreliablity of your customers means that drug sales are simply a better investment.
I do not believe there is any simple solution to illegal immigration and it is naïve to think so. Furthermore, I have not seen any convincing evidence to suggest illegal immigration is the root of any problem except illegal immigration.
[rant] If you are not a native American, what is your problem anyway? [/rant]
I do not believe there is any simple solution to illegal immigration and it is naïve to think so. Furthermore, I have not seen any convincing evidence to suggest illegal immigration is the root of any problem except illegal immigration.
[rant] If you are not a native American, what is your problem anyway? [/rant]
So you are suggesting those immigranting have been given legal right to do so from their home countries? I mean if you want to compare it to the settlers and the native americans, that would have to be true, right? Or is this just blowing smoke out of your ...
No, I do not recall saying that at all. I am not even sure how relevant it is. There is plenty of fence and guards on the US side of the border. I imagine the Mexican government is incapable of stopping or simply does not care if its citizens cross over.
I would not chalk that up as an official 'ok'.
No, I do not recall saying that at all. I am not even sure how relevant it is. There is plenty of fence and guards on the US side of the border. I imagine the Mexican government is incapable of stopping or simply does not care if its citizens cross over.
I would not chalk that up as an official 'ok'.
So it is fundamentally different then the immigration that occurred when the settlers came and had to interact with the native americans. As the settlers did have official support from their home nations. So the comment about the native americans was just blowing smoke from your nether regions, got it.
|
So it is fundamentally different then the immigration that occurred when the settlers came and had to interact with the native americans. As the settlers did have official support from their home nations. So the comment about the native americans was just blowing smoke from your nether regions, got it.
Er, not making sense. Is that a straw man blowing in the wind (presumably from your nether regions)?
So if Mexico emptied its prisons and let those people come over then it would be the same? Or are you using your rose colored glasses to review US history?
So if Mexico emptied its prisons and let those people come over then it would be the same? Or are you using your rose colored glasses to review US history?
Are we talking about down under? or Cuba?
But yes, that would be closer to what happened (of course not everyone that immigrated during the early years were criminals), it would at least be Mexico officially supporting the action of those immigrating.
This thread is still going?
Up until now I hadn't noticed, as I'd been too busy "weeping for America that was" (n't).
Something like 15-20k per head, and the "coyotes" sometimes leave them in the middle of the desert to die...sometimes still locked in a semi trailer...
Not a nice way to go, especially if you paid them so much cash...
Yuck.
The best part about this thread is that people keep suggesting we should tighten border security. If people are already getting paid 15-20k to smuggle someone across the border, do we want to make it harder, thereby driving the price (i.e. incentive) up? Really?
It makes a lot more sense to elminate the incentive altogether. Readily available work visas + crack down on employers who hire undocument workers == elimination of the demand for illegal labor.
Something like 15-20k per head, and the "coyotes" sometimes leave them in the middle of the desert to die...sometimes still locked in a semi trailer...
Not a nice way to go, especially if you paid them so much cash...
Yuck.
The best part about this thread is that people keep suggesting we should tighten border security. If people are already getting paid 15-20k to smuggle someone across the border, do we want to make it harder, thereby driving the price (i.e. incentive) up? Really?
It makes a lot more sense to elminate the incentive altogether. Readily available work visas + crack down on employers who hire undocument workers == elimination of the demand for illegal labor.
+1 to this, with increased border security. That would make the most sense to me. To do both. Make it easier for people to enter legally, while at the same time, crack down on illegal entry.
+1 to this, with increased border security. That would make the most sense to me. To do both. Make it easier for people to enter legally, while at the same time, crack down on illegal entry.Something like 15-20k per head, and the "coyotes" sometimes leave them in the middle of the desert to die...sometimes still locked in a semi trailer...
Not a nice way to go, especially if you paid them so much cash...
Yuck.
The best part about this thread is that people keep suggesting we should tighten border security. If people are already getting paid 15-20k to smuggle someone across the border, do we want to make it harder, thereby driving the price (i.e. incentive) up? Really?
It makes a lot more sense to elminate the incentive altogether. Readily available work visas + crack down on employers who hire undocument workers == elimination of the demand for illegal labor.
To play devil's advocate, I'd say work visas are already readily available. My question is what happens to companies that hire illegal workers? So far, I've seen nothing(which doesn't mean nothing is happening, but still).
More seriously, the UK is is island with a limited number of access points/ports, but we still get illegal immigration - the simple truth is that people will always find a way, eventually, to get into a country they want to be in.
Therefore no efforts should be made to control one's sovereignty.
More seriously, the UK is is island with a limited number of access points/ports, but we still get illegal immigration - the simple truth is that people will always find a way, eventually, to get into a country they want to be in.Therefore no efforts should be made to control one's sovereignty.
False dichotomy. More troops on the border are not the only means -- things like streamlined legal opportunities and cracking down on employers would be another.
Snark works a lot better when there's an element of sound logic behind it.
|
More seriously, the UK is is island with a limited number of access points/ports, but we still get illegal immigration - the simple truth is that people will always find a way, eventually, to get into a country they want to be in.Therefore no efforts should be made to control one's sovereignty.
No, but keeping people out (through force, barriers, etc.) is the wrong way to do it. Illegal immigrants motivation for coming here is that they can find work...and they can because people will hire them for pennies on the dollar compared to legitimate workers. The ONLY way to prevent illegal immigration is to remove a persons motivation for immigrating.
How do you do this? Two basic things would remove motivation from potential illegal immigrants:
Remove business owners' motivation for hiring illegals. Make the penalties so steep that more than 1-2 violations would bankrupt a business.
Make work visas easier to get. They won't be coming here illegally if they're coming here legally.
Now if those two things were implemented, business owners would stop hiring illegals and, when they need to fill a position, are going to be more likely to hire a "native" worker as opposed to an immigrant because they're paying them the same and they don't have to worry about language skills deficiencies.
Oh and legalize drugs...how is it that an amendment is required to make alcohol illegal, but a simple law can make other drugs illegal? Drugs such as marijuana are far less harmful than alcohol, yet they're illegal and alcohol is legal? Gimme a break.
Therefore no efforts should be made to control one's sovereignty.
sov•er•eign•ty (svr-n-t, svrn-)
n. pl. sov•er•eign•ties1. Supremacy of authority or rule as exercised by a sovereign or sovereign state.
2. Royal rank, authority, or power.
3. Complete independence and self-government.
4. A territory existing as an independent state.
I do not see how illegal immigration, at least in the context we are discussing, removes our control over any of those definitions. Are you suggesting we will be overrun by Mexicans and become a colony of Mexico? Surely not.
Help me understand your position.
+1 to this, with increased border security. That would make the most sense to me. To do both. Make it easier for people to enter legally, while at the same time, crack down on illegal entry.Something like 15-20k per head, and the "coyotes" sometimes leave them in the middle of the desert to die...sometimes still locked in a semi trailer...
Not a nice way to go, especially if you paid them so much cash...
Yuck.
The best part about this thread is that people keep suggesting we should tighten border security. If people are already getting paid 15-20k to smuggle someone across the border, do we want to make it harder, thereby driving the price (i.e. incentive) up? Really?
It makes a lot more sense to elminate the incentive altogether. Readily available work visas + crack down on employers who hire undocument workers == elimination of the demand for illegal labor.
+2 "all of the above" is the federal government so corrupt and incompetent that it can't walk and chew gum at the same time? (metaphorically speaking)