Still wondering why Arizona is taking harsh steps to combat Illegal Immigration?


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It's because of things like this.
Closing a large section of park land to U.S. citizens, leaves it to drug and human traffickers.
This is expletive disgusting. Unless something is done, this shows that if you just up the violence enough, America will back down on it's own soil. Yeah, that's the image of a strong World Leading nation.

I weep for America that was.


OK my question is why not call in the arizona national guard and give them free freign to pacify that area. We know that all U.S. citizens are out of it so lets take it back, thats 80 miles of OUR land those blood suckin vermin are takeing.

Sovereign Court

At the risk of adding some early sanity to this thread, the article points out that the violence is from drug cartels. What exactly will cracking down on any suspected illegal immigrants do to stop drug cartels, hmm?

The Exchange

We could just legalize drugs and let people come and go as they please.


Uzzy wrote:
What exactly will cracking down on any suspected illegal immigrants do to stop drug cartels, hmm?

They are just looking for a scapegoat. I would Godwin here, but history is full of examples.

Dark Archive

CourtFool wrote:
Uzzy wrote:
What exactly will cracking down on any suspected illegal immigrants do to stop drug cartels, hmm?
They are just looking for a scapegoat. I would Godwin here, but history is full of examples.

Ah, Mr. KourtFool, your Godvin permit vas zhust approved! Kongrats und "Godvin" avay.

The Exchange

Or they are doing nothing that the fed has not already put into play but are being called evil because they need to enforce it.

Let the flaming begin


Uzzy wrote:
At the risk of adding some early sanity to this thread, the article points out that the violence is from drug cartels. What exactly will cracking down on any suspected illegal immigrants do to stop drug cartels, hmm?

*facepalm*

First, thanks for implying that I am somehow less sane than you are. I find that oddly amusing.

Now, anyone care to tell us who the drug cartels are comprised of? Anyone care to take a guess? Anyone?

People who are illegally entering our country! That's right Mikey.

And before you go there Uzzy, of course I know that not all illegals are drug smugglers. But if the Illegal issue wasn't so ridiculously out of control it would be a lot easier to crack down on the drug cartels.


Wolfthulhu wrote:
But if the Illegal issue wasn't so ridiculously out of control it would be a lot easier to crack down on the drug cartels.

I am curious how you arrive at that conclusion.


Wolfthulhu wrote:
...But if the Illegal issue wasn't so ridiculously out of control it would be a lot easier to crack down on the drug cartels.

Right. The borders in the US are swiss cheese, with less than 1% of all illegal drugs being caught -- for decades now -- and it's suddenly the illegals' fault. What about the tons of drugs making their way into the US through every other port and across the Canadian border... is that illegal Mexicans' fault too?


Wolfthulhu wrote:
Now, anyone care to tell us who the drug cartels are comprised of? Anyone care to take a guess? Anyone?

The drug cartels are comprised of drug barons and criminals based in Mexico, where they have greater freedom of action than within the United States. They sell their product within the United States, but have no wish to live in the USA where they would be arrested quite quickly. Their operatives are crossing the border, sure, but they are also going back and forth, not staying put in the USA. That's why they're called 'smugglers'.

There is a human trafficking element as well, which feeds into illegal immigration, although the money the smugglers get from this is peanuts compared to what they get for drugs.

So primarily this is a border control and narcotics smuggling issue. 'Proper' illegal immigrants to the United States are going to try and disappear ASAP into the big cities and avoid detection. Illegal immigration is a major problem in the United States and worldwide, but its connection to this particular incident is minor at best.


As you do the analogy that illegal immigrant = reason for rising drug related crimes it would be interesting to see if states that do not have a problem with illegal immigration also do not have a problem with drugs...

If you compare the statitstics you will see that illegal immigration actually plays a minor role in drug dealing activities.

But to each their own illusions of simple solutions in a black and white world.


MicMan wrote:

As you do the analogy that illegal immigrant = reason for rising drug related crimes it would be interesting to see if states that do not have a problem with illegal immigration also do not have a problem with drugs...

If you compare the statistics you will see that illegal immigration actually plays a minor role in drug dealing activities.

Crystal meth remains a major problem in cities/areas with little/no problem with illegal aliens. Tons of BC Bud come over the US/Canadian border and I doubt many illegal aliens have a role in it.


I blame aliens of the extraterrestrial sort.


MicMan wrote:
But to each their own illusions of simple solutions in a black and white world.

Again, I think this is really what is going on here. We are looking for someone to blame for something that is far more complicated and, quite likely, largely our own fault.


So if you can't stop all drug activity, it is not worth the effort to try to stop any drug activity?


Urizen wrote:
I blame aliens of the extraterrestrial sort.

They are to blame for the Reeces Pieces shortage.


CourtFool wrote:
Urizen wrote:
I blame aliens of the extraterrestrial sort.
They are to blame for the Reeces Pieces shortage.

Damn. That's it! I'm writing my congressman.


pres man wrote:
So if you can't stop all drug activity, it is not worth the effort to try to stop any drug activity?

Who said that?

If government (or anyone) is really interested in "winning the War on Drugs," they'll need to take an honest clear look at the real situation and not just fall back on demagoguing and blaming the "illegal immigrants" (which has been happening since the US was founded: the Irish, the Italians, the Chinese, the Germans and Japanese,...). That also means far better education efforts starting in schools, reforming laws that throw pot possessioners in jail for longer than far more violent offenders, and much more funding in drug abuse rehabilitation programs.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This is less about illegal immigration and more about border security. Porous southern borders with Mexico are the cause such that illegal immigration and drug trafficking are the effects (of course, drug trafficking has other causes as well).

The federal government's lack of motivation in securing the border is an enabler to both the immigration and trafficking issues.

-Skeld


Wolfthulhu wrote:
I weep for America that was.

Historical awareness FAIL

...and yes, I'm still wondering why Arizona is taking harsh steps to combat illegal immigration.


Skeld wrote:

This is less about illegal immigration and more about border security. Porous southern borders with Mexico are the cause such that illegal immigration and drug trafficking are the effects (of course, drug trafficking has other causes as well).

The federal government's lack of motivation in securing the border is an enabler to both the immigration and trafficking issues.

-Skeld

Well said, Skeld.

Interesting that the thread is focusing on my choice of presentation rather than the actual article and the fact that an incredibly large area of sovereign U.S. soil has been effectively 'surrendered' to a group of non-citizens because they have a lot of guns. That really doesn't bother you?


bugleyman wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
I weep for America that was.
Historical awareness FAIL

Aww. See, now you're just hurting my feelings. :^/

...

Ok, I'm over it now.


Wolfthulhu wrote:
Interesting that the thread is focusing on my choice of presentation rather than the actual article and the fact that the drug cartels have unopposed mobility through an incredibly large area of sovereign U.S. soil.

No, people were focusing on the original question of the thread:

Quote:
Still wondering why Arizona is taking harsh steps to combat Illegal Imigration?

If you wanted a discussion thread about the drug cartels and cross-border security, perhaps giving the thread a title related to that subject rather than a tangential issue would have been advisable?


Wolfthulhu wrote:

Aww. See, now you're just hurting my feelings. :^/

...

Ok, I'm over it now.

Self awareness FAIL.

Don't worry, it has happened to all of us at one time or another. Even in the "America that was."


Werthead wrote:
If you wanted a discussion thread about the drug cartels and cross-border security, perhaps giving the thread a title related to that subject rather than a tangential issue would have been advisable?

Good point, but you're proceeding from a false assumption. Discussion wasn't the aim; the venting of misguided anger was.


Werthead wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
Interesting that the thread is focusing on my choice of presentation rather than the actual article and the fact that the drug cartels have unopposed mobility through an incredibly large area of sovereign U.S. soil.

No, people were focusing on the original question of the thread:

Quote:
Still wondering why Arizona is taking harsh steps to combat Illegal Imigration?
If you wanted a discussion thread about the drug cartels and cross-border security, perhaps giving the thread a title related to that subject rather than a tangential issue would have been advisable?

It's not a tangential issue. Our lack of border security is the root cause of both issues. They are, in this part of the country intertwined.

Dark Archive

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
...But if the Illegal issue wasn't so ridiculously out of control it would be a lot easier to crack down on the drug cartels.
Right. The borders in the US are swiss cheese, with less than 1% of all illegal drugs being caught -- for decades now -- and it's suddenly the illegals' fault. What about the tons of drugs making their way into the US through every other port and across the Canadian border... is that illegal Mexicans' fault too?

Here in the British Isles, we tend to blame single mothers for everything. Have you ruled them out?


bugleyman wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:

Aww. See, now you're just hurting my feelings. :^/

...

Ok, I'm over it now.

Self awareness FAIL.

Don't worry, it has happened to all of us at one time or another. Even in the "America that was."

bugleyman wrote:
Werthead wrote:
If you wanted a discussion thread about the drug cartels and cross-border security, perhaps giving the thread a title related to that subject rather than a tangential issue would have been advisable?
Good point, but you're proceeding from a false assumption. Discussion wasn't the aim; the venting of misguided anger was.

Anything besides personal attacks you wish to share?


amethal wrote:
Here in the British Isles, we tend to blame single mothers for everything. Have you ruled them out?

Can we deport them?


Wolfthulhu wrote:
It's not a tangential issue. Our lack of border security is the root cause of both issues. They are, in this part of the country intertwined.

Hilarious. Our lack of border security is the "root cause" of Mexican drug cartel violence. So thousands of Mexicans formed criminal gangs, not to profit by selling illegal drugs here, but because we have bad border security. So if the demand for drugs dropped to zero tomorrow, Mexican drug cartels would go on as before?

Is this how you imagine it going down?:

(Mysteriously spoken, of course, in broken English)

Brown criminal #1 wrote:
Hey ese*, those gringos has lousy border security. That makes me want to form a gang.
Brown criminal #1 wrote:
Okay, ese; but only if we kill a bunch of people.

*Everyone knows criminals from Mexico say this constantly. Duh.


Wolfthulhu wrote:
It's not a tangential issue. Our lack of border security is the root cause of both issues. They are, in this part of the country intertwined.

So, to recap the thread so far, Arizona is taking harsh steps to combat illegal immigration because Mexican drug and people traffickers have turned a national park on the border into a no-go area which means clearly that in fact Arizona is not taking harsh enough steps to combat illegal immigration and in fact its existing harsh steps (which have significantly damaged the state's reputation on a national and international level) are completely ineffective?

Or at least, that's what the situation appears to be so far.


Werthead wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
It's not a tangential issue. Our lack of border security is the root cause of both issues. They are, in this part of the country intertwined.

So, to recap the thread so far, Arizona is taking harsh steps to combat illegal immigration because Mexican drug and people traffickers have turned a national park on the border into a no-go area which means clearly that in fact Arizona is not taking harsh enough steps to combat illegal immigration and in fact its existing harsh steps (which have significantly damaged the state's reputation on a national and international level) are completely ineffective?

Or at least, that's what the situation appears to be so far.

Are we paying attention, logic fans? That's what we like to call a tautology... Or as our friends south of the border might be inspired to say:

"Gooooooooooooooooooooallllllll!"


Wolfthulhu wrote:
Anything besides personal attacks you wish to share?

Pointing out that you're expressing misguided anger is a personal attack? I don't think so.

Look, if you post an ill-considered opinion rife with logical fallacies, people are going to point it out. It might hurt your feelings, but it isn't a personal attack. If you want an echo chamber, there are plenty of places you could go to find one.


Werthead wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
It's not a tangential issue. Our lack of border security is the root cause of both issues. They are, in this part of the country intertwined.

So, to recap the thread so far, Arizona is taking harsh steps to combat illegal immigration because Mexican drug and people traffickers have turned a national park on the border into a no-go area which means clearly that in fact Arizona is not taking harsh enough steps to combat illegal immigration and in fact its existing harsh steps (which have significantly damaged the state's reputation on a national and international level) are completely ineffective?

Or at least, that's what the situation appears to be so far.

Something like that, yes.

I think it's a hammer and nails issue, really. I have no problem with them stepping up their border patrols/closing borders or what have you, but the way they go about it is inelegant at best.


Wolfthulhu wrote:
I weep for America that was.

Sadly, that America never was, except in our own imaginations. The violence associated with drug smuggling is directly analogous to the gangland violence that surrounded the bootleg liquor trade during prohibition -- this is nothing new. I used to live in Troy, NY, which was a major stop along the Canada-to-NYC bootleg liquor smuggling route -- and, yes, the old folks there remember the demands to invade Canada and/or close the border there, too.


Werthead wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
It's not a tangential issue. Our lack of border security is the root cause of both issues. They are, in this part of the country intertwined.

So, to recap the thread so far, Arizona is taking harsh steps to combat illegal immigration because Mexican drug and people traffickers have turned a national park on the border into a no-go area which means clearly that in fact Arizona is not taking harsh enough steps to combat illegal immigration and in fact its existing harsh steps (which have significantly damaged the state's reputation on a national and international level) are completely ineffective?

Or at least, that's what the situation appears to be so far.

The law enacted by Arizona doesn't even take effect until July 29th, so how can it have been effective yet? And even when it is in place it will likely take years to make a difference. So, yeah. I'd say your recap is pretty much... bupkis.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
I weep for America that was.
Sadly, that America never was, except in our own imaginations. The violence associated with drug smuggling is directly analogous to the gangland violence that surrounded the bootleg liquor trade during prohibition -- this is nothing new. I used to live in Troy, NY, which was a major stop along the Canada-to-NYC bootleg liquor smuggling route -- and, yes, the old folks there remember the demands to invade Canada and/or close the border there, too.

Yup. And with the end of Prohibition came the end of the violence. Not that I'm advocating legalization of drugs (I do, but that's another topic entirely), but surely we can establish that the violence is because of the drug trade, which exists not because of a lack of border security, but because of a demand for illegal drugs?

Attacks against the supply (of which tightenting border security is one), if successful, will have exactly one result: driving up the equilibrium price of drugs, which in turn increases incentives, thereby enticing new entrants (drug smugglers) into the market. In other words, attacking the supply is a fool's errand.


Werthead wrote:
Or at least, that's what the situation appears to be so far.

They are just targeting the wrong brown people. It is hard to tell the difference between hard-working, family oriented Hispanics who provide valuable service by happily doing the crappy jobs Americans wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole vs. blood-thirsty, greedy parasites making a literal killing on the weakness of America.


CourtFool wrote:
They are just targeting the wrong brown people. It is hard to tell the difference between hard-working, family oriented Hispanics who provide valuable service by happily doing the crappy jobs Americans wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole vs. blood-thirsty, greedy parasites making a literal killing on the weakness of America.

Do you mean that crossing the border illegally doesn't turn the former into the latter?!? Crazy talk. ;)


bugleyman wrote:
CourtFool wrote:
They are just targeting the wrong brown people. It is hard to tell the difference between hard-working, family oriented Hispanics who provide valuable service by happily doing the crappy jobs Americans wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole vs. blood-thirsty, greedy parasites making a literal killing on the weakness of America.
Do you mean that crossing the border illegally doesn't turn the former into the latter?!? Crazy talk. ;)

No, but it still does make them lawbreakers.


CourtFool wrote:
Werthead wrote:
Or at least, that's what the situation appears to be so far.
They are just targeting the wrong brown people. It is hard to tell the difference between hard-working, family oriented Hispanics who provide valuable service by happily doing the crappy jobs Americans wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole vs. blood-thirsty, greedy parasites making a literal killing on the weakness of America.

Actually, the 'wrong brown people' would be those hard-working, family oriented Hispanics who came into the country legally. But why get nitpicky?


Orthos wrote:
No, but it still does make them lawbreakers.

Yes, it certainly does.

It's just that some of us just question the point of categorizing people. I'm curious: Have you ever sped? Jay-walked? Littered? Loitered? I'm a lawbreaker. Almost all of use are, but I really don't see how that is a useful distinction.

Or do you honestly believe that you can divine something about my character solely from the fact that I once received a photo-radar ticket?


Wolfthulhu wrote:
The law enacted by Arizona doesn't even take effect until July 29th, so how can it have been effective yet? And even when it is in place it will likely take years to make a difference. So, yeah. I'd say your recap is pretty much... bupkis.

Right, so your position is actually that Arizona has not taken harsh enough measures in the past to stop illegal immigrants crossing the border, and these new, much-criticised laws are nevertheless needed to stop this from happening and combat the drug cartel problem.

This still doesn't explain why Arizona's laws are so lax in the first place as to allow Mexican drug cartels to set up a permanant camp and crossing point on American soil. Wouldn't existing laws be enough to send them on their way? Or are the existing laws simply not being enforced? And if the existing laws are not being enforced, why does it then follow that harsher laws are required? If law enforcement personnel in Arizona are not enforcing current laws, what guarantee is there that they will enforce the new ones?

Quote:
We could just legalize drugs and let people come and go as they please.

If you legalized drugs, there would be no need for smuggling as people could just buy them from the local store. Of course, it'd be a cold day in hell before the USA even considered doing this.


Uzzy wrote:

Now, anyone care to tell us who the drug cartels are comprised of? Anyone care to take a guess? Anyone?

MexiCIAns?

CIAlombians?

Venture Capitalists in the illicit agriculture and extortion business?

Corrupt PolitiCIAns?


The cartels aren't the illegal IMMIGRANTS, they don't stay to work. They are smugglers and traffickers, NOT Immigrants. Yes, there are some who come and drug traffic, but they aren't the majority of immigrants, the majority are people trying to escape Mexico, Ever been to Tijuana or Mexico City, crossed the open cess-pit of filth that empties into the ocean, seen the hovels that some people live in?

Do you know how much money it takes to legally immigrate? thousands of dollars per person, it can take decades for 1 person to immigrate and then make enough money to bring the rest of their family over. There needs to be reform, major reform, and part of that reform needs to be reduction in application fees that fuel the bureaucracy. I live in San Diego, they don't take our jobs, they take jobs we don't want...the biggest of which I believe is landscaping, people without money pick up a couple workers on the side of the road, give em $20 and a 12 pack to work in the yard all day. People with money hire a Landscaping company. OK they might take away lawnmowing from Jimmy, but he'd rather sit in the living room playing video games than go outside and work anyway...

"Give us your tired, your hungry, your poor..." NOT ANYMORE "Give us your money, we're tired and poor"


Werthead wrote:
This still doesn't explain why Arizona's laws are so lax in the first place as to allow Mexican drug cartels to set up a permanant camp and crossing point on American soil.

Arizona's laws shouldn't have to address national borders. That's the federal governments job. Sadly, the federal government has ignored this issue for decades.

Werthead wrote:
Wouldn't existing laws be enough to send them on their way? Or are the existing laws simply not being enforced?

Yes, the existing (federal) laws should be enough, but they aren't being enforced.

Werthead wrote:
And if the existing laws are not being enforced, why does it then follow that harsher laws are required?

The law is not harsher. It is actually almost the exact same law as already exists at a federal level. The only reason I used the word is that the laws opponents call it such.

Werthead wrote:
If law enforcement personnel in Arizona are not enforcing current laws, what guarantee is there that they will enforce the new ones?

I'm not a lawyer, but the fact that they made a law that pretty much duplicates a federal law suggests that for some reason enforcement of the existing law was difficult for state authorities to do. In reality, there is no 'guarantee' that it will be enforced, but if it isn't then nothing changes. If it is, the law hasn't really changed, only the enforcement of it.


Werthead wrote:
This still doesn't explain why Arizona's laws are so lax in the first place as to allow Mexican drug cartels to set up a permanant camp and crossing point on American soil.

You mean, why are Arizona's state laws so lax on enforcing Federal land? Gee, let's think about that for a while ...

Werthead wrote:
Wouldn't existing laws be enough to send them on their way?

One issue is that on many of these Federal reserve lands, officers can not use conventional transportation such as jeeps or trucks, because it would damage the environment despite the fact that by allowing these criminals (which include illegal border crossers who intend to become hard workers) to pass through is doing exponentially more damage to these environments. Thank the greenies for that one folks.

Werthead wrote:
Or are the existing laws simply not being enforced? And if the existing laws are not being enforced, why does it then follow that harsher laws are required?

Many of the Federal laws are not being enforced, or not to the degree they should be. A state can't force the Federal government to do its job, therefore the state has to do what it can within its own borders. These "harsher" laws that Arizona is initiating are actually less "harsh" then the Federal laws that are on the books right now, but not being ultialized(sp?) to their full capacity.

Werthead wrote:
If law enforcement personnel in Arizona are not enforcing current laws, what guarantee is there that they will enforce the new ones?

Arizona law enforcement not enforcing the Federal laws? I'm not sure what you are discussing here.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
I weep for America that was.
Sadly, that America never was, except in our own imaginations. The violence associated with drug smuggling is directly analogous to the gangland violence that surrounded the bootleg liquor trade during prohibition -- this is nothing new. I used to live in Troy, NY, which was a major stop along the Canada-to-NYC bootleg liquor smuggling route -- and, yes, the old folks there remember the demands to invade Canada and/or close the border there, too.

Yeah, I live in Brooklyn, and I used to hear stuff like this all the time regarding meth(From the USA) and pot(from Canada) from friends who live upstate.


pres man wrote:
Arizona law enforcement not enforcing the Federal laws? I'm not sure what you are discussing here.

I said law enforcement personnel in Arizona, which would include Federal law enforcement? Or are there not any in Arizona?

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