I'm working on writing up all the forms that a druid in my campaign can take with all the adjustments already on index cards so that my player can quickly grab the appropriate form and we can play.
I noticed that each Beast Shape adds on to a few of the movement rates. These are often faster than the original form. Is this intentional or am I misreading something? I don't think that a constrictor snake should all of a sudden have a climb and swim speed of 90 feet. A bat goes from speed 40 to speed 90.
Also, if the druid take the form of a bat swarm, would he gain the swarm traits? His type doesn't change but it seems odd that he wouldn't.
Would he keep the cheetah's and crocodile's sprint ability? The text doesn't say that he would but that's part of the reason why someone would want to become a cheetah.
Thanks, and expect more questions as I type these up.
The spells (or polymorph description) specifies that you get the creature's movement rates *up to* what is listed in the spell. Similar to if the spell (such as elemental body) grants resist fire 20, and the creature is immune, you only get resist fire 20.
I'm not sure a druid can take a swarm form... hmm.
The spells actually say that you gain the speeds listed.
From Beast Shape III (II and I have similar wording just different speeds)
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet,
Another question I just ran into: would the druid gain an electric eel's electricity attack?
The spells actually say that you gain the speeds listed.
From Beast Shape III (II and I have similar wording just different speeds)
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet,Another question I just ran into: would the druid gain an electric eel's electricity attack?
Look under the Polymorph Heading of the Magic Section -
From the PRD -
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead . Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
Edit - Also under each entry of Beast Shape it "a" or "an" animal/beast, so I would say swarms are not a choice. You could become a bat, but not a swarm of bats.
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The spells actually say that you gain the speeds listed.
From Beast Shape III (II and I have similar wording just different speeds)
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet,Another question I just ran into: would the druid gain an electric eel's electricity attack?Look under the Polymorph Heading of the Magic Section -
From the PRD -
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead . Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
Edit - Also under each entry of Beast Shape it "a" or "an" animal/beast, so I would say swarms are not a choice. You could become a bat, but not a swarm of bats.
To make sure I understand your interpretation, you get the movement listed or 90 ft, whichever is lower so long as the form grants the movement in the first place. I like your interpretation but it does run counter to what the spell says. The polymorph being a general rule and the spell being a specific rule.
I think I may have to go with the interpretation for the bat swarm. It is listed as an animal and I can definitely see my player going for it. I was hoping there was a way to avoid the problems with swarms.
So I'm almost half way through the animals so far and none of them seem to have any speeds that are 90 feet. Am I missing something? Should the movement rates be 30, 60, or 90 depending on the beast shape spell?
So I'm almost half way through the animals so far and none of them seem to have any speeds that are 90 feet. Am I missing something? Should the movement rates be 30, 60, or 90 depending on the beast shape spell?
Sorry, I was off for the day...
The polymorph description refers to what is written in each spell description, quote...
"In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses."
Then it tells you how that works with each Polymorph Spell...
"If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead ."
The spells follow the rules for polymorph, they are not exceptions, how they are worded is taken into account in the Polymorph section.
If an animal has a 30ft move, you get 30ft move, even if the spell says you could go as high as 90. If the animal has a 100ft move, you get 90ft move as the max described by the spell.
Edit - I Expect it was done this way so the explanation of the limitations didn't have to be repeated for each Polymorph Spell, just once in the Polymorph section, then list the Max for each individual spell.
So I'm almost half way through the animals so far and none of them seem to have any speeds that are 90 feet. Am I missing something? Should the movement rates be 30, 60, or 90 depending on the beast shape spell?Sorry, I was off for the day...
The polymorph description refers to what is written in each spell description, quote...
"In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses."
Then it tells you how that works with each Polymorph Spell...
"If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead ."
The spells follow the rules for polymorph, they are not exceptions, how they are worded is taken into account in the Polymorph section.
If an animal has a 30ft move, you get 30ft move, even if the spell says you could go as high as 90. If the animal has a 100ft move, you get 90ft move as the max described by the spell.
Edit - I Expect it was done this way so the explanation of the limitations didn't have to be repeated for each Polymorph Spell, just once in the Polymorph section, then list the Max for each individual spell.
+1
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As a side note, a swarm of bats isn't an animal. It's a bunch of animals. If your player wants to turn into a bat, cool. But I don't think a swarm of bats is on the table for a Beast Shape spell. Even if you let him do so, he gains none of the benefits of being a swarm because those benefits are not listed in the beast shape spell description.
Sorry for the confusion. The spell is worded so specifically that I was stuck on the spell. They really should have worded the spell better. This is the first time anyone has played a druid in any of my games since 2nd edition so I'm not really as familiar with wild shape as I should be.
Another quick question, while the polymorph description and the beast shape spells don't specifically mention it, would a cheetah's or crocodile's sprint be something the druid would gain? They gain the jet ability from the octopus and squid. Having the cheetah's fast movement would be one of the reasons to change into a cheetah instead of a lion.
It doesn't specifically say so, but basically you can allow anything you do not consider overpowered for the spell, personally I think it similar enough to jet to allow it, you might even look at the individual creature if the package isn't becoming too good.
Cheetah shape for a 5th lvl spell equivalent doesn't seem so bad even with sprint though, bend the rules a bit for the player's sake and feel the love :)
Thanks everyone for your help. I will probably be asking more questions as my player decides to delve more into the elemental and plant forms later.
So I'm almost half way through the animals
Go tiger! I do the same. Let's show PETA what we think of their vegetarian cult! :D
Oh to resurrect an old post, but did you ever finish the list?
I am doing the same for my player, or to be more precise, I am looking for someone else to have done it first so I can steal it and if I fail to find one, I will bite the bullet and do it my self.
Seems easy enough to do. I'll work my way through alphabetically through the Beast Shape I list. Here's what I have through G.
Small forms: +2 dex, +1 natural armor
Dire rat: speed 40, climb 20, swim 20, bite 1d4, low-light vision, scent
Dog: speed 40, bite 1d4, low-light vision, scent
Eagle: speed 10, fly 30 (average), 2 talons 1d4, bite 1d4, low-light vision
Electric eel: speed 5, swim 30, bite 1d6, tail touch 1d6 electricity, low-light vision
Medium forms: +2 str, +2 natural armor
Ankylosaurus companion: speed 30, tail 1d6, low-light vision, scent
Boar: speed 40, gore 1d8, low-light vision, scent
Cheetah: speed 50, bite 1d6, 2 claws 1d3, low-light vision, scent
Constrictor snake: speed 20, climb 20, swim 20, bite 1d4, scent
Deinonychus: speed 60, 2 talons 1d8, bite 1d6, foreclaws 1d4, low-light vision, scent
Dolphin: swim 30, slam 1d4, low-light vision
Giant frog: speed 30, swim 30, bite 1d6, low-light vision, scent
Goblin dog: speed 50, bite 1d6, low-light vision, scent
I have Beast Shape I, II, and Elemental Body I. I need to get Beast Shape III, Elemental Body II, and Plant Shape I done. I originally had no intention on making it available to others but it wouldn't be a problem. When I get it done, I'll make it available.
So I've got it done, completely. I did all the calculations and put them into nice simple charts so that the players don't have to waste time doing all the adjustments. Every animal, elemental, and plant that the druid can wildshape into is there. I don't have any means of hosting it so if someone wants me to email it to them so they can host it, I am more than willing to send it.
I am also open to criticism and suggestions to improve this. It is currently at 15 pages and I don't think I can make it any smaller.
So I've got it done, completely. I did all the calculations and put them into nice simple charts so that the players don't have to waste time doing all the adjustments. Every animal, elemental, and plant that the druid can wildshape into is there. I don't have any means of hosting it so if someone wants me to email it to them so they can host it, I am more than willing to send it.
I am also open to criticism and suggestions to improve this. It is currently at 15 pages and I don't think I can make it any smaller.
You sir are a star, if you e-mail it me, I will try and get it up on a free hosting site.
andrewhedley@btinternet.com
I can't wait!
It's sent. I think I accounted for everything including size modifiers. The only thing I didn't add in would be the +8 for swim checks if the creature can swim naturally. I didn't know if the druid would get this since he doesn't naturally have a swim speed.
Thank you General Dorsey, I have received the file and will give it a second set of eyes.
Once we are both happy with it I will get it up on a free hosting site so others can benefit from your work.
I am very happy with the work you have put into this and I am sure the community will be as well.
EDIT:
Here is the origional file:
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Thank you General Dorsey, I have received the file and will give it a second set of eyes.
Once we are both happy with it I will get it up on a free hosting site so others can benefit from your work.
I am very happy with the work you have put into this and I am sure the community will be as well.
EDIT:
Here is the origional file:
Hell yea we will.
Just sayin'.
- Drillboss
Issues I am looking at:
1) Beast shape tables, AC, not sure what that figure is, maybe it should be renamed size as I do not see that on the list.
2) I am not sure all the Attack bonuses are correct yet. Medium? Tiny?
As I am at work, I will look at it in more detail, if anyone finds any errata, I can modify and upload the next version each time.
Hell yea we will.Just sayin'.
- Drillboss
Definitely look it over. I'm sure there are some errors in there. A couple were already pointed out.
Issues I am looking at:
1) Beast shape tables, AC, not sure what that figure is, maybe it should be renamed size as I do not see that on the list.
2) I am not sure all the Attack bonuses are correct yet. Medium? Tiny?
As I am at work, I will look at it in more detail, if anyone finds any errata, I can modify and upload the next version each time.
The AC column is supposed to be the total AC adjustment. When I wrote the tables, I put the size bonus in there so I wouldn't forget to add it in and then I forgot to add in the rest of the adjustments. My bad.
Medium and Tiny attack bonuses were definitely incorrect. They should both be +1.
The AC column is supposed to be the total AC adjustment. When I wrote the tables, I put the size bonus in there so I wouldn't forget to add it in and then I forgot to add in the rest of the adjustments. My bad.
Medium and Tiny attack bonuses were definitely incorrect. They should both be +1.
As the table already lists the total AC, I changed the AC column to Size again.
I am in the process of adding x1.5 to all attacks that qualify and x0.5 to those that also qualify, my player needs the help.
Made some small changes to stat blocks, mainly speed increases and the like for Beast Shape II and III.
I also don't think Dolphins get 'hold breath(ex)' as I don't see it on the Beast Shape spell lists.
That is as far as I have got, we are playing tonight, so not much chance to look more tonight, but I will carry on tomorrow.
I also found that the whole list would format better in landscape, or at least it does on my printer.
I also don't think Dolphins get 'hold breath(ex)' as I don't see it on the Beast Shape spell lists.
Actually, RAW, the dolphin form would grant the ability to breathe underwater. All forms with a swim speed do, according to the polymorph subschool rules.
In my game I would probably houserule that back to the normal dolphin "hold breath" instead.
As the table already lists the total AC, I changed the AC column to Size again.
That wasn't supposed to be there anymore. I took it out of the elementals and the plants. My player was getting confused so I meant to remove it. The fewer columns, the easier it would be.
I am in the process of adding x1.5 to all attacks that qualify and x0.5 to those that also qualify, my player needs the help.
For my player, I would be doing the same thing.
Made some small changes to stat blocks, mainly speed increases and the like for Beast Shape II and III.
I wasn't sure how I wanted to do this. Going by exactly what's written in the rules, there should be quite a bit of speed increases but earlier it was suggested that those are meant to be maximum speeds and the beast shaped character shouldn't be faster.
I also don't think Dolphins get 'hold breath(ex)' as I don't see it on the Beast Shape spell lists.
I noticed that too and I left it in there for the same reason I left the sprint ability for the crocodile and cheetah: it seemed right to me. It certainly is a house rule.
That is as far as I have got, we are playing tonight, so not much chance to look more tonight, but I will carry on tomorrow.
I also found that the whole list would format better in landscape, or at least it does on my printer.
I haven't printed it yet. I was tinkering with the format and hadn't settled on anything yet. I don't really like the way it looks right now but it is meant to be functional first. I am certainly open to better layouts. I want to reduce the number of pages as well as make it easier on the eyes.
Thank you for helping me with this.
That wasn't supposed to be there anymore. I took it out of the elementals and the plants. My player was getting confused so I meant to remove it. The fewer columns, the easier it would be.
In landscape, the tables can actually have more information, I'll convert them to that format when I post the v.1.1.
For my players, the size is probably relevant, as I found out when my druid player shapechanged last night into a huge form and was shocked at the minus 2 ac and attack.
I wasn't sure how I wanted to do this. Going by exactly what's written in the rules, there should be quite a bit of speed increases but earlier it was suggested that those are meant to be maximum speeds and the beast shaped character shouldn't be faster.
It may be repetitive, but where a medium or smaller creature can swim/climb/burrow/fly faster with higher levels of beast shape, it is probably worth assuming every one is an idiot and pointing it out.
I noticed that too and I left it in there for the same reason I left the sprint ability for the crocodile and cheetah: it seemed right to me. It certainly is a house rule.
I agree on all of those, they are flavour for those animals and as such I think they could be good house rules, but a note to say so might be of use if this is going to be a file for everyone. It will raise questions over rare abilities like the electric eels shock or the one of the dinosaurs stuns, but we can deal with those on a case by case basis.
My computer died and I don't have access to the files for the time being. I think I need a new motherboard. Anyway, has anyone else made corrections or adjustments to my file yet? I would like to see what people have come up with.
I did get it updated with some of the changed suggested. I don't have any place to put it so if someone would like the file, just let me know.
I did get it updated with some of the changed suggested. I don't have any place to put it so if someone would like the file, just let me know.
I would like to take a look at the list. Seems like a very handy thing to have and would be very helpful for an animal loving shape-changing friend of mine.
I did get it updated with some of the changed suggested. I don't have any place to put it so if someone would like the file, just let me know.I would like to take a look at the list. Seems like a very handy thing to have and would be very helpful for an animal loving shape-changing friend of mine.
Er, ha, it would probably help if I told you how to contact me. Is there a way to send private messages on this board? Have to admit, while I've been reading these forums for a while this is my first post.
You can just send me an email to gendorsey at hotmail.com.
I'm open to suggestions on how to make it better and to correcting mistakes.
I'd like my Cave Druid to eventually be able to morph into a shoggoth. Considering that this ooze is Huge, I'd need the spell Beast Shape V. It doesn't seem to exist. I'm just wondering if such spell could exist and what would be the requirements to gain this spell.
BTW, I can use the Beast Shape III for oozes at the 10th level and the IV one at the 12th level. There is got to be a way to have the V one between the 12th and the 20th level...
So I managed to update the wild shape file (I am also General Dorsey). It now includes the Bestiary 2.
Something to note: I do have a house rule mixed in there but it is easy to ignore. I allow Sprint since Jet is allowed.
Email me at b_l_z_bob at hotmail.com if you are interested. Please don't use the previous email. I no longer check it except to clear it out.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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1) Beast Shape adds on to a few of the movement rates. These are often faster than the original form.
The spells actually say that you gain the speeds listed.2) form of a bat swarm, would he gain the swarm traits?
3) Would he keep the cheetah's and crocodile's sprint ability?
1) You get the speed limited by the spell. So a 40ft fly with 90ft limit, you get 40 (the speed of the bat and not the speed of the spell.) If the speed of the animal is 120 ftp but the spell only provides 90, you get only 90 (the speed of the spell.)
If you plan on doing polymorphs, you need to read the whole page on 211-212.
2) How do you get to be a swarm? I see no way to do so, as a swarm is not a creature but a swarm treated as a creature.
3) If the Sprint ability isn't specifically listed in the Beast Form spell, you don't get it.
druid gain an electric eel's electricity attack?
Electricity (Ex) wouldn't be gained. You would however gain a Secondary Tail attack that deals no damage (since you don't gain the Electricity ability.
I like your interpretation but it does run counter to what the spell says. The polymorph being a general rule and the spell being a specific rule.
Again, as I say above, the rules for polymorph are on page 211-212. So unless you expect Paizo to print two pages of text for every Polymorph spell, you need to understand that all polymorph spells must comply with all the rules on page 211 to 212. Unless the spell says something like "you gain 90 ft instead of the normal speed rules of polymorph" then you gain 90 or the speed of the creature whichever is lower.
Sprint since Jet is allowed.
If you allow this (or the Electricity ability above) then I got a Greater Vital Strike Spit Acid attack from a Fighter/Druid to deal ranged 40d6 Acid every round. I'm ready to play, are you DMing? In short, when you deviate from the explicit rules in one way (allowing Sprint when it isn't allowed) then you open yourself up to real actual bogus things being allowed in the same slippery slope.
Most of that was settled a while back (you probably didn't notice that I resurrected the thread, I should have said something). The only house rule I am using is the Sprint being allowed. I don't see any real issue, at least not in my games. My players aren't out to break the game. If someone doesn't want to use that house rule, that's cool. It's easy to just delete it from the file. I made the file for my group but I am more than willing to share with others.
When I write up a house rule (and it is rare that I do), I take a lot into consideration. If the house rule ends up being a problem, then I make adjustments. If the problem is a player, then I make adjustments. This particular house rule is not game breaking for my group.
ohw nice,
can't open the file at work but will look at it at home.
i have an Excel sheet with all the math in it for the different shapes. As soon as something changes, like level or belt of giant strenght i just input the number and everything changes for all shapes.
i also have a list of all beasts, although most of Bestiary two are still missing
can't wait to have a look at your sheets
Does this file still exist? I am currently playing a druid and would love to see the spread sheet.
I have a polymorph excel sheet that I use. It does not include the base forms but what it does do is makes leveling each form pretty much automatic.
Polymorphamory - The Love of Changing Form
This is also a good resource.
B4 made Plant Shape a lot better, this needs an update.