Ferocity enables a creature to remain conscious even when it's going under 0 HP. What about going unconscious due to nonlethal damage? Both explanations my players and I found don't make any sense to me.
Explanation #1 : Creature with ferocity are immune to nonlethal damage, but that sounds a bit strong, doesn't it?
Explanation #2 : Creatures with ferocity are affected by nonlethal damage like any normal creature, but then ferocity becomes pretty useless. As soon as a creature with ferocity falls under 0 HP, anyone can deal 1 nonlethal damage to it to make it fall unconscious.
|
Ferocity: A creature with ferocity remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. The creature is still staggered and looses 1 hit point each round. A creature with ferocity still dies when its hit point total reaches a negative amount equal to its Constitution Score.
Nonlethal Damage:
Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.
Ferocity deals with actual hit points. It only comes into play when the creatures hit point total is below 0.
Nonlethal damage doesn't change your hitpoint total at all. Instead, once the nonlethal damage total equals your current hp total, you're staggered. When it's exceeded, you're unconscious.
Thus, ferocity doesn't interact with nonlethal damage at all. And, yes, anyone can deal 1 nonlethal damage to make the creature fall unconscious. But to do so, they're using an action that would have otherwise just killed the creature outright. I don't see a problem.
Thus, ferocity doesn't interact with nonlethal damage at all. And, yes, anyone can deal 1 nonlethal damage to make the creature fall unconscious. But to do so, they're using an action that would have otherwise just killed the creature outright. I don't see a problem.
I'll take a low level example. A boar can fight until his HP reaches -17. From -1 to -17, he can still fight and inflict serious wounds to his opponents. Basically, when using this rules, shoving swords in the boar's skin can't stop him, but a little kick in the side will make him fall unconscious? Doesn't make much sense to me.
Houserule it if you want.
Instead of adding the nonlethal damage starting from 0, start from wherever the creature would normally be unconscious. (For most creatures, this is still zero; for creatures with ferocity or diehard, it's -Con.)
For example, a boar starts with 18 hp, and dies and falls unconscious at -17, right?
Surprise round, your knight charges, does 26 hp, but forgot his boar spear at home and ends up with a stuck lance, face to face with an angry pig. Boar is at -8 hp, but still Fierce. Knight starts punching the pig, doing 6 points of nonlethal damage, bringing his nonlethal total to -11 (that is, -17+6), still lower than the Boar's current hp, -8, so the pig gets another Fierce round. Either the knight can punch him again, bringing his nonlethal total up above his -8 current hp, or his friend the ranger can shoot the pig to bring his current hp down below his nonlethal total.
As a side effect, it removes the bonus for defeating a boar with nonlethal damage (instead of only 18 subdual, you have to do the full 38hp), whereas one might prefer that it's specifically lethal damage that MAKES a creature Fierce. Other than that, I think it works well.
This also slightly reduces the lethality of having ferocity/diehard, for PCs, since they can again be knocked out without being killed. (Though, pretty much only by intelligent villains who specifically want to capture them alive.)
The funny thing is that mathematically, technically, Ferocity is useless. "...when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious." If your nonlethal damage is 0, that is greater than any negative hit points. But that's just stupid. :)
Ferocity stops a creature from falling unconscious due to HP total -- I read this as including unconsciousness due to nonlethal damage. Note, though, that instead of falling unconscious the creature is staggered and loses 1 HP each round.
If you accept my reading, a creature with ferocity is not immune to nonlethal damage, as nonlethal damage can get him staggered and bleeding much more quickly. The nonlethal damage just doesn't contribute toward killing him. In other words, the only situation where nonlethal damage doesn't make a difference is where the creature was already staggered and bleeding. Even then, if you do enough nonlethal damage to where it exceeds the character's max HP, additional damage is treated as lethal -- so, again, not immune, just less effective in one specific set of circumstances.
In the case of the boar, then, you normally have a boar that will be fine for the first 17 damage, then staggered and bleeding until you've hit it for 35 damage total in which case it falls dead. Nonlethal damage lowers the amount of damage to get it staggered and bleeding, so 10 lethal + 9 nonlethal damage = staggered and bleeding boar. But the nonlethal damage doesn't contribute to killing it, so a staggered and bleeding boar with 9 nonlethal damage and 8 hp left still takes 25 more damage before dying.
If you deal another 12 nonlethal to that boar, it would take 3 of it as lethal damage, and it would be a staggered and bleeding boar with 18 nonlethal and 5 hp; any additional damage, lethal or nonlethal, will be treated as lethal and contribute to killing it at -17 hp.
"Immune to nonlethal"? No. Nonlethal is reduced in effectiveness in some limited situations, but that's all.
AvalonXQ is exactly right.
The only way to count Lethal Damage that makes sense and fits the RAW is to begin at the lowest poosible HP at which the injred creature can still function. So, you count up from the lowest point for Non-Lethal damage and down from the highest point for Lethal damage, and when they intersect, the creature goes unconscious.
For everyone who doesn't have Ferocity, those -HP are not actually a part of our HP. They are nothing more than a buffer against dying when we have taken so much damage that we are out of HP. Therefore, we cannot take them into consideration for anything, including Non-Lethal damage.
But for those tough monsters (including half-orcs) who have Ferocity, their -HP become part of their total HP. Consequently, we must take those HP into consideration for all matters concerning damage, including Non-Lethal damage.
So, the only way to count Non-Lethal damage against such monsters is to begin the count at the lowest possible HP value at which they remain functional, which is at the negative value equal to their CON score. We count upward from there.
If you're concerned about completely making ferocity redundant, there's a feat that makes it so you cannot fall unconscious due to nonlethal damage. It's called Flagellant and requires Zon Kuthon worship, but the option is certainly there