Personally, I'm not a fan of cheating or fudging, either as a DM or a player. To me they are the same thing.
When I DM, I have a pile of d20s. As I make rolls in combat, I toss them out into the center of the table where everyone can see them. Players roll them back when I start to get low. I have no opportunity to fudge, DMing this way. I tell my players all the time that I'm rooting for them, but the dice are merciless.
This creates a culture of Roll Sharing at my gaming table. It's just expected that everyone gets to look when dice are rolled. Their 20's and my 1's cause cheers and likewise my 20's and their 1's cause groans, but it's all in fun. If someone picks up a die real quick or uses hard-to-see dice, there are a lot of complaints from everyone.
I've ran through one and a half Adventure Paths with my current group and there have been no TPKs and everyone has a good time. They know I'm not going to save them. They fight conservatively and flee when it looks bad.
If the DM does his job when developing the encounter and the players do their jobs and play wisely, there's really little danger of a TPK.
I'm not criticizing DMs who believe fudging enhances the game. Over the years, I've found that games where no one fudges or cheats are a lot more fun than the ones where rolls don't matter as much.
Well I think it goes without saying that if the system works in your game. And all the players and the DM are playing with the same system. And if everyone is having fun with it, than obviously don't change anything. However in my experience the games that have been most fun, and the ones we still talk about years later were the ones that had above table rolling with everyone watching each other's rolls. At least in my experience when people start fudging rolls it always feels as if they are trying to steal the show one way or another, and to me saying that I change my roll to critically fumble just as often as I change it to critically succeed doesn't change that fact.
Another example, in a game with rolls that everyone watches. Just last week our rogue couldn't miss, her attacks, skill checks, saves, even damage rolls were absurdly high. She totally stole the show, information other charecters probably should have known they didn't but she did, in combat my best move was to move around the monster so she could be flanking it was absurd. Yet since we all watched her rolls, and this sort of thing never happens for her none of us felt like she was one upping the rest of us. In fact we had almost as much fun as she did, because in a way we were all part of it watching each roll and seeing if it could continue. To me this is something that can't be reproduced by someone who rolls on a book that is on their lap and fudges a die or two.
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Consider this hypothetical. A player makes an incredible die roll and, so, prevents another PC from dying. Everybody is excited and happy. Only, you, the GM, noticed the die roll and know the player cheated. What do you do?
I will call him on it and likely never trust him in game again. If it's organized play I'll follow whatever the policy is on cheating for organized play.
Cheating is about trust and it bugs me a lot when someone at the table is cheating whether I'm GM or another table. I tolerate cheating about as much as I tolerate that guy who tells little lies to me to make his life seem more exciting.
As for the GM 'cheating' the only time I might cheat is if I feel I've put the players in an unfair situation to begin with. I could just tell them "Hey look I goofed up when making this encounter, bang he's dead". Instead I simply pencil off some hit points or use poor tactics.
Lying is BS, cheating is just lying about dice.
now I have a hypothetical question on cheating and fudging dice roles.
purely hypothetical, so please do think about your answer.
the chance of it happening is not in your favor anyway, but it still could happen so.... my question.
Hypothetical Player is cheating at his die attack rolls, and hypothetical DM suspects it, but cant prove it. Hypothetical DM has had him use DM's die and player still does it, and has even done it out of a cup.
Player is still suspected of cheating at the dice rolls.
player's dice rolls on attack one one roll is always a critical hit and the second attack after confirming the critical is always a miss.
3 games later Hypothetical player admits to it and how hypothetical player did it.
( hypothetical player is a psi) how would you hypothetically deal with the cheating then??
I tell Hypothetical Psychic player the only solution is if they accompany me to Vegas so we can play in concert with each other (or just buy some winning lottery tickets if that's how they roll)
....!?!?!?
now I have a hypothetical question on cheating and fudging dice roles.
purely hypothetical, so please do think about your answer.
the chance of it happening is not in your favor anyway, but it still could happen so.... my question.Hypothetical Player is cheating at his die attack rolls, and hypothetical DM suspects it, but cant prove it. Hypothetical DM has had him use DM's die and player still does it, and has even done it out of a cup.
Player is still suspected of cheating at the dice rolls.
player's dice rolls on attack one one roll is always a critical hit and the second attack after confirming the critical is always a miss.3 games later Hypothetical player admits to it and how hypothetical player did it.
( hypothetical player is a psi) how would you hypothetically deal with the cheating then??
Abandon the game and call in the Society for Psychical Research to confirm the existence of consistent and repeatable psychokinesis to the scientific world, write a paper on it and win the first Nobel prize for parapsychology.
Consider this hypothetical. A player makes an incredible die roll and, so, prevents another PC from dying. Everybody is excited and happy. Only, you, the GM, noticed the die roll and know the player cheated. What do you do?I will call him on it and likely never trust him in game again. If it's organized play I'll follow whatever the policy is on cheating for organized play.
Cheating is about trust and it bugs me a lot when someone at the table is cheating whether I'm GM or another table. I tolerate cheating about as much as I tolerate that guy who tells little lies to me to make his life seem more exciting.
As for the GM 'cheating' the only time I might cheat is if I feel I've put the players in an unfair situation to begin with. I could just tell them "Hey look I goofed up when making this encounter, bang he's dead". Instead I simply pencil off some hit points or use poor tactics.
Lying is BS, cheating is just lying about dice.
This. All this.
I've pulled a player outside (we used to game in my apartment, and would go out onto the porch for DM-player one-on-ones whether they be lone scenes or "Dude we need to talk" situations) at least twice for suspicion of cheating, and banned the use of computerized die-rollers during live games. Now that we game over Ventrilo, I can't really check whether or not my players are cheating, but because we nixxed quickly situations where one or another was cheating before (one no longer plays with us, and the other seems to have dropped the habit) I can pretty much trust them to play the game fairly.
I rarely fudge as a DM. And even then it's not "Oh, that 20 suddenly turned into a 10/2/1!" as much as "The party has been annihilated. Those of you still in negatives, the surviving enemies pull out bandages and bind your wounds and drag you off unconscious, you are no longer dying. Stop losing HP. Those of you already dead are piled onto a cart and taken along for burial/necromancing/spare parts/monster food when they get to their HQ/fortress/whatever" instead of having them go around and CDG everyone. IE, don't fudge the rolls - just fudge the actions that follow.
Bowing out now. Thanks for the discussion, guys.
I was suspected of cheating. I don't ninja my dice, and the players next to me see the rolls. I use a red dice with white numbers for melee, green with gold for ranged or magic, and silver brushed metal for skills, creation, or high-tech combat(sci-fi game). It's just that I roll a roll a lot of natural 20s. Generally at least 3 per gaming session. I also roll at least that many natural 1s. Most of my rolls are between 11 and 15. That's high, but it's not gamebreaking. It's just how I roll, as long as I use the right die. If I use the green dice for melee, I won't roll above a 12. If I use the red for high tech, I average around 8 on a d20. That seems to be fairly consistent.
Back to the subject at hand, just provide a tray or box and make everyone roll in it. Say you're sick of people dropping or playing with their dice instead of paying attention, and that only rolls in the box will count. That doesn't single the "cheater" out and may even help speed your game up.
You're putting the worse possible spin on a player who cheats.
Frankly, they did that to themselves. As 0gre said, cheating is just lying about the dice. A person who lies once makes a mistake. A person who lies on a regular basis loses all respect they ever had, if they ever did have any. It's one of the things I don't tolerate.
If telling people "I do not appreciate lying and will not associate with liars" makes me an "arrogant prick" to use your terms, it's a title I will wear with pride.
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Seriously, as a GM, I encourage cheating.
So, basically, what you're telling me is that the way I GM is wrong. Not only are you saying it is wrong, you are saying that the way I GM encourages people to act in such a way that you think they are worthy of being insulted. When, what I see it as, is a way to promote fun - which is really the ultimate point of the game.
So, yeah, I got a big issue with you. I may not enjoy the way some of you play, but I've always said that what you do at your table is what you do at your table - whether or not I want to play at your table.
Quit being arrogant pricks.
Wow... I tell you I don't like cheating so I'm an arrogant prick? If you ask a question and you might not like the answer then DON'T ASK IT.
If telling people "I do not appreciate lying and will not associate with liars" makes me an "arrogant prick" to use your terms, it's a title I will wear with pride.I've got no problem with you saying "I do not appreciate lying and will not associate with liars" , but that's not what you said. What you said is, "A person who lies on a regular basis loses all respect they ever had".
Isn't it the same thing? I don't like what they do. I don't respect them and I won't want to spend time around them.
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Seriously, as a GM, I encourage cheating.
So, basically, what you're telling me is that the way I GM is wrong. Not only are you saying it is wrong, you are saying that the way I GM encourages people to act in such a way that you think they are worthy of being insulted. When, what I see it as, is a way to promote fun - which is really the ultimate point of the game.
So, yeah, I got a big issue with you. I may not enjoy the way some of you play, but I've always said that what you do at your table is what you do at your table - whether or not I want to play at your table.
Quit being arrogant pricks.
Wow... I tell you I don't like cheating so I'm an arrogant prick? If you ask a question and you might not like the answer then DON'T ASK IT.
You didn't say "I don't like cheating".
You said "There is a reason 'liars and cheats' is an insult. Any negative spin on being a cheat is self imposed."
Errrm... most people don't like liars and cheats. Sorry you associate yourself with a title which is unpopular.
But not everyone plays that way. Like I said, some of us role play. So, letting the dice get in the way of a good story simply makes no sense.
And WE'RE the arrogant ones?
Wow, okay, how about everyone walk away from this thread for a while? This is starting to get personal with no reason to be. Calm down, folks. It's just a discussion about a game.
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There's that arrogance again.
Which would be well placed if the game were played like a tactical sim. If you play it that way, then go ahead and b%@#~ about the rules all day long. I'll agree with you.But not everyone plays that way. Like I said, some of us role play. So, letting the dice get in the way of a good story simply makes no sense.
If you feel random chance and dice get in the way of role playing there is a diceless role playing system. Rite Publishing has a patronage project which they just opened up where they are working on developing it. It's based on the same system that Amber RPG was based on which is supposed to be quite good (I've never played it).
Your false outrage is quite funny as I've done nothing but point out the obvious.
LT, um, you're still coming off as confrontational, though.
You disagree with what some people here have said, I get that, but there's no reason to get down to name calling. I think everyone should consider taking a break from this topic.
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Wow, okay, how about everyone walk away from this thread for a while? This is starting to get personal with no reason to be. Calm down, folks. It's just a discussion about a game.
Actually I think it's only just gotten to the core of it.
Some people think it's Ok to cheat in game. Many people find cheating offensive. Where things start to break down is when the people who find it offensive start to catch on that there are cheaters at the table.
What I don't get is if cheaters really honestly feel that cheating is OK then why don't they just start out and say "Hey guys I lie about dice rolls when things go south". I wonder how well that would go over?
Can Mr. Fishy be a prick too?
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What I don't get is if cheaters really honestly feel that cheating is OK then why don't they just start out and say "Hey guys I lie about dice rolls when things go south". I wonder how well that would go over?
Replying to myself here.
This is likely one of the 2 reasons why GM 'cheating' is acceptable. Many GMs (maybe most) will tell their players outright they fudge rolls.
There is an unspoken assumption by many players that all GMs do this.
The other reason GM cheating is acceptable is because it's assumed to be equitable for all players. I've heard cases where GMs have played favorites for one player or another and that is as highly frowned upon as lying about rolls or fudging character sheets for the same reason. People want the system to be fair to everyone at the table.
Which would be well placed if the game were played like a tactical sim. If you play it that way, then go ahead and b~&#@ about the rules all day long. I'll agree with you.
But not everyone plays that way. Like I said, some of us role play. So, letting the dice get in the way of a good story simply makes no sense.
Ugggh I have to disagree with part of this. Though I would preface that with saying that I agree with some other things you have said. Namely I can understand that you play in a group where rolls are fudged by DM's and players, and everyone enjoys the heck out of that. This does not make your group lairs or cheats, nor would a member of your group suddenly become a lair or cheat if they sat at another table and fudged dice. They simply would be playing in the framework they are used to. At which point it would be the DM of the new table's job to inform them of how the rules worked there.
However what I disagree with is your implication that fudging dice is in someway important for a good story and or role playing. The table I gamed at for many years was heavy roleplay, light rules and rolls, but when you did roll it was always out in the open for everyone to see and you went with what you got. Now once in a while a player would come up with a plan that was so amazing or perfect that the DM would nod and say no problem you can do that, it totally works in this situation, but at least in my eyes that is different than rolling for something and fudging it if the roll didn't come up your way. Now as far as roleplaying, if my bard with an amazing knowledge skill, and background as someone who spent hours finding the most minute details out about everything somehow rolled a natural 1 about something he should probably know I wouldn't fudge the die because the outcome was ridiculous. I would use it as an opportunity for roleplaying, create a completely false story about whatever the roll was about maybe include a hook for our DM about how so and so told me. At least in my experience, absurd die rolls only creates a better framework for roleplaying.
Not confrontational, rather defensive.LT, um, you're still coming off as confrontational, though.
You disagree with what some people here have said, I get that, but there's no reason to get down to name calling. I think everyone should consider taking a break from this topic.
I was describing how your words seemed to me. You appear confrontational. I accept that you feel defensive. Please do not change my words, but consider them.
I have no stake in the conversation really, but it rankles me to see name calling, so I'm asking you personally to recognize the hostility and stop.
* I should note perhaps that I agree with many of your points, but I am troubled by the way you're expressing them.
Right about Mr. Fishy being a prick. Cheating is a personal thing some people are very sensitive about it and be come very angery. Some people are more interested in playing the game. That said can Mr. Fishy be a PRICK? Hey if this turns into another tier war someone come find me.
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Ugggh I have to disagree with part of this. Though I would preface that with saying that I agree with some other things you have said. Namely I can understand that you play in a group where rolls are fudged by DM's and players, and everyone enjoys the heck out of that. This does not make your group lairs or cheats, nor would a member of your group suddenly become a lair or cheat if they sat at another table and fudged dice. They simply would be playing in the framework they are used to. At which point it would be the DM of the new table's job to inform them of how the rules worked there.
See again if there is an expectation set that everyone is going to be fudging rolls then there is an understanding. It's when one person is cheating without everyone else being clued in that trouble comes.
Wow.
Well, in response to the OP, I would suggest either establishing a new rule for everyone rolling dice in the open to help against cheating or just talking to the player about it privately depending on your comfort level and how well you know the player.
As for my view on player cheating, as a GM, if I caught a player doing it in one of my games, I would give them a warning and would uninvite them from the group if they continued to do so. As a player, I would talk to the GM about it privately, if it continues I would likely leave the group.
I don't care for the tone the thread has taken, but if I found myself in a game where the GM said at the beginning that "cheating" was alright as long as it didn't reduce the amount of fun everyone was having, I would be fine with it and not think ill of the GM or players.
But.
That is only because that isn't really cheating in my mind. It is just an option allowed by the rules of that table. A house-rule, like many other house-rules. If it helps the game, then good.
If I had to give an example of how I consider it, one game house-rules that when you take some feat that makes you choose a weapon (like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency) it applies to all weapons instead of just that one. That is fine with me. Not in my current game, but I'm not going to ill of a group that uses it.
Now, let's say that there is a player that likes this rule and thinks it is a perfect idea. They come into my game, knowing that all games don't use that house-rule, and decide that is they way it will work for their character without asking or telling me. I would be quite irritated if I found out that they did so and probably would lead to me checking more closely on them or just let them now that they are uninvited from the game.
I feel the same way about players who just cheat to try and make the game more fun. Just because I accept it is a reasonable house-rule doesn't mean that I am fine with one trying to secretly slip it into my game.
And if I, as the GM, am at a table where my players are expected to cheat (and know that they are expected to cheat), should a player new to the table just start out and say "Hey guys, I can't abide cheating on dice roles when things go south"?
Look, fudging doesn't have to be done in secret. If you feel at some points players should have editorial control over what happens in the game, just grant them that power, there's no need for the subterfuge in hiding behind a modified die roll. If you feel like the subterfuge is necessary so that you can keep the illusion of fairness in the outcome you're modifying, then you need to consider whether you have the right to assume editorial control when the implicitly agreed upon framework is that you can't.
Your hypothetical has nothing to do with the initial discussion, and I'm not sure if this is the topic shifting or whether you don't actually see the difference between a table where it's understood that you can ignore the dice when it suits the story and doing so in a table when it's understood you don't. If you're in a game where it's understood that everyone has the option of ignoring the dice, then it's not even cheating, just a different set of rules that treat the dice as a suggestion. This is not the standard understanding, if for no other reason than the fact that people use dice specifically because they're neutral arbiters in the first place.
And if I, as the GM, am at a table where my players are expected to cheat (and know that they are expected to cheat), should a player new to the table just start out and say "Hey guys, I can't abide cheating on dice roles when things go south"?Wow, okay, how about everyone walk away from this thread for a while? This is starting to get personal with no reason to be. Calm down, folks. It's just a discussion about a game.
Actually I think it's only just gotten to the core of it.
Some people think it's Ok to cheat in game. Many people find cheating offensive. Where things start to break down is when the people who find it offensive start to catch on that there are cheaters at the table.
What I don't get is if cheaters really honestly feel that cheating is OK then why don't they just start out and say "Hey guys I lie about dice rolls when things go south". I wonder how well that would go over?
If I was that latter player, I would know it was time for me to find a new gaming group.
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Most games, as well as the Core Rules, assume that everyone abides by the numbers shown on the dice. Any place where this isn't the case, it's explicitly called out because it's an exception. The same goes for any other rule - humans move 30' per round, a longsword does 1d8 damage, etc. Anything else is either an error, a deliberate exception, or a houserule.
If it's agreed upon in your game that everyone will lie about dice rolls when the story warrants it, then it's bloody well not "cheating". It's a gorram house rule, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's obviously working for your group, otherwise you'd play differently.
We're not talking about a game with this houserule though. We're talking about a game that follows standard assumptions about die rolls, and this player is not someone mistakenly importing an unapproved houserule. He is a cheater.
Cheating means breaking the rules without consent. If you're not doing that, you're not actually cheating. Please don't get offended when we say that cheating is wrong.
I live next door to a bakery. At the end of the day, they will often set slightly stale bread in bags outside their door with the expectation that passersby will help themselves to it. I will occasionally grab a baguette on my way past, but you won't see me getting my hackles up when the community agrees that stealing bread from a bakery is wrong, because I'm not stealing in the first place.
I feel your pain. We have a player in my saterday night group that will sometimes mess up his math some. When I mention to him that he can't reach the number he just gave me, he usually replys with "well I got a nat 20". After every such roll, he'd quickly ninja the dice.
(I have everyone's stats on a sepreate paper so I can secreatly roll for hidden doors, random saves, and other dm stuff.)
- my various games back in college neatly sidestepped this issue by having a gaming culture where everyone was interested and paying attention to everyone else's actions. So it didn't matter if the GM could see the roll, because all of the players were watching just to see what happened.
In my experience this is a good way to reduce cheating.
the last time i accused a player of cheating(while rolling stats), i made him reroll stats. They actually rolled all 18's on the rerolls, in front of me, using MY dice....
Same player also rolled natural 20's like no tomorrow. I couldn't hate on him, but it was nearly game breaking
We have one of these guys in our group too. I'm always watching 19-20 roll across the table in front of him, except when he really needs it.
It's like he's got magic dice hands. I'll save this story for another thread though, too off topic.I'm sorry cheating really says something about a persons character, and it usually isn't good. IMHO anyway.
I have to agree with this.
As far as the DM being allowed to fudge rolls but the player not:
The dm's job is to balance the game to be fun for everyone. Sometimes that means that 20 didn't confirm, other times it means that third 1 was a 20. More or less balancing out the dice rolls, and helping prevent boring fluke deaths.
On occasion if a player has been getting screwed by there low rolls the dm will intervene. On rolls that really matter "Are you sure? I didn't see that. can you roll again for me?" is the most common way to go about this.
On the other side of things I've played in a campaign that the DM didn't hold back any rolls, including the random monster tables. Out of 5 players, every night at least 2 would die.
In the end, over 20 characters met there deaths, before he lost the folder that contained everything we needed.
This is all I'm going to mention on the topic, because I don't want to further degenerate into another player vs dm thread.
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Not confrontational, rather defensive.
Defensive to you is coming off as confrontational to others. At least two of us, anyway.
If you take offense to the idea that being a cheat has a negative connotation, I'm afraid there's not going to be any reasoning with you.
Declaring that those who take that stance against cheats are arrogant simply for doing so is ridiculous. Cheats are widely frowned on; it's dishonorable, deceitful, and certainly has no place in a cooperative storytelling game. To cheat in a game that has no winner is so pointless, that very few people like to associate with those who are petty enough to do it anyway.
Yes, there are places for fudging dice in the name of a good story. It's a good GM tool to keep a campaign moving when it might otherwise come to a premature end, or to help players through a streak of unlucky die rolls. However, that decision lies in the GMs hands, and not the players.
No time to read everything here but my suggestion, if you don't want to make a confrontation about it, is to bring in a dice rolling tower or dice bowl or something of the sort. Make every player roll in said tower/bowl, they can't hover of course, or snatch before you have a chance to see. In the case of multiple attacks they must use different colored dice and designate which dice goes to which attack or roll them one at a time. Just my two bits.
Personally I think the occasional fudging of a dice roll is fine, but when it's consistant then one needs to put their foot down, excessive is excessive.
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Right about Mr. Fishy being a prick. Cheating is a personal thing some people are very sensitive about it and be come very angery. Some people are more interested in playing the game. That said can Mr. Fishy be a PRICK? Hey if this turns into another tier war someone come find me.
Um I'm a noob on forums in genral what's a tier war??
And on the cheating thing I think it is wrong and I agree with the gm should fudge the actions not the rolls that said I was taught to play in a rp heavy 1st ed game at the end of the 80s and we have made all rolls where as many ppl as possible can see them and the gm only uses his screen to hide notes we caught a guy one time using weighted dice we kicked him to the curb as it wasn't fair to the rest of us that when chance was called upon "fate was always on his side"
Um I'm a noob on forums in genral what's a tier war??
Organizing classes by levels (tiers) of power from weak to strong, then determining what you should/should not play because of what tier everyone else is on.
That's the short version. Getting into anything more will lead to flames and badness and we don't want that.
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Um I'm a noob on forums in genral what's a tier war??Organizing classes by levels (tiers) of power from weak to strong, then determining what you should/should not play because of what tier everyone else is on.
That's the short version. Getting into anything more will lead to flames and badness and we don't want that.
Ah well then that explains all of my buddies b#**# that I can't play something cause its not effective crap I then build it as an npc and kick his ass with it ineffictive my ass everything works you just have to know how to use it dam it and sorry bout the thread jack I don't mean to derail
Yikes, there's some serious harshness for my playstyle. Eh, serves me right for being honest about fudging a roll every couple sessions.
But seriously, this attitude of "I'm the DM, you're playing MY game, and any contribution you make had best be put to the dice" is pretty scary. I realize our group may be a bit off the beaten path, but we're high on the roleplaying and see the game as an opportunity to play as our characters in a high fantasy setting. Combat is about tactics, clever thinking, and taking advantage of enemy weaknesses to succeed.
My personal opinion is that poor tactics and stupid choices should get you killed, but a series of low rolls and crit-heavy enemies is a terrible reason to lose a character you've invested months or years in. If your players are mature enough to fudge a roll (cheat, essentially) to *improve* the game, or gaming atmosphere, and not simply to make their own character a badass, then more power to them. Having a character die will ruin your night.
I see it like this: there are dice on both side of the dungeon master screen. As a DM, yes, you can lower the enemy's HP or lessen their offense but there's only so much you can do. Eventually you're going to end up in a scenario that poor rolling gets a character killed, and there's nothing you can do aside from the *awful* deus ex machina hand wave. As a player, and ally of our DM, I see it as my responsibility to help out in these scenarios. I don't really consider it cheating, though. I think of it as facilitating.
And just for the record: I've chosen to critically fumble or fail more than once, and my cheating is rarely for my own benefit. I like the idea of losing a character (makes it real, you know?), but my co-players don't. Like I said, it's all about having fun and keeping up the atmosphere.
I know I responded to you personally, but let me clarify that the game is a group effort. If someone in the group, who is not an arbiter of the rules decides to take it upon themselves to just decide their own outcome in what ever situation they please, that damages the foundation and trust level of the entire group. If I, as the DM, present a carefully thought out encounter that I feel challenges the group and plays to your interests, going out of my way to try and make a fun and interesting encounter for you, the player and you just say "Meh, I succeeded. Sure, I rolled a *17*. Really, I did"...
...I would boot you from my table right then and there, if I had found proof of rolling otherwise.
Seriously, what would happen in the NFL is a quarterback simply decided he didn't get tackled that one time. What if that running back decided he wasn't out of bounds at the goal line?
The player's trust the DM to provide a good story, a fun setting, and fair play. The DM trusts the players to play by the rules presented in the game.
As in the cheating player I mentioned earlier. This guy was my best friend, roommate at the time, etc. He is no longer welcome to our games unless we audit his character sheet and watch every roll. We've even told him this, it doesn't bother him much. He got caught and he knows it. It bothers me even more, because it shouldn't come to this point. I shouldn't have to do that.