I gotta say, it's been interesting reading the two different sides of this conversation. It seems that side A believes that cheating isn't a big deal if it's not hurting anyone, and you should just compensate on your end to make up for his statistically high responses. Side B, however, thinks that cheating destroys the game and will eventually lead to more disruptive play, so should thus be stopped. Either way, I'd like to offer my own opinion.
I'm a cheater. I've been playing for 5 years now, and yeah, I fudge my rolls every now and again. To me, cheating is like a form of player DM'ing- it's the only time you have a mechanical "say" in the world. When combat has gone on too long (hitting the 3 hour mark) because nobody in the group can seem to hit the enemy, I'll bump up a roll or two to help end the fight. When a player's character is on the line, I've "rolled" well on a stabilization check- but in our campaigns we play with perma-death. And yeah, when sessions have been sorta mundane I've been known to botch a particularly crucial save. In fact, I've been known as Mr. Unlucky by more than one group. :D
So yeah, I've modified the numbers to fit my own desires from the session- rarely more than once a night, if that, but it happens and I'm not really ashamed of it. I think you should try to figure out *why* your player is cheating. If this person is your friend, and you value his/her presence at your gaming sessions, I think that you should figure out why s/he's cheating. If it's because they want to be mechanically the best, I'd recommend trying to set the person straight (using any of the suggestions above) and then offer other ways to "be the best." If it's just the stuff like I mentioned above, I'd say let it go. But hey, I'm partial.
I welcome your input, even if I wouldn't welcome you to my table. In my gaming groups, cheaters don't get invited back. Admitted cheaters don't get invited in the first place. I've seen campaigns train-wrecked and fall apart because someone "fudge's the dice to fit their own desires". At that point, why even have dice? Why play? If you're just gonna change the outcome to your favor, why bother playing with other people at all?
I welcome your input, even if I wouldn't welcome you to my table. In my gaming groups, cheaters don't get invited back. Admitted cheaters don't get invited in the first place. I've seen campaigns train-wrecked and fall apart because someone "fudge's the dice to fit their own desires". At that point, why even have dice? Why play? If you're just gonna change the outcome to your favor, why bother playing with other people at all?
Do you feel the same way about the dm fudging rolls? Does that train wreck the game? I think if you only do it extremely rarely and only in story critical moments its not as big a deal as you are making it out to be. If we can trust a dm to do the exact same behavior for the right reasons, its possible to do so for players as well.
Dont get me wrong, I totally ascribe to the let the dice fall where they may mentality, but I can understand the other side of things.
I have had to deal with this twice, and a good friend of mine who moved is dealing with it in his new group.
In retrospect I used various methods above to tippy-toe around everyones feelings. I have come to the conclusion that the next time I encounter this issue I am just going to call the guy out at the table in front of everyone. Bottom line, any cheater at my table is expendable.
I welcome your input, even if I wouldn't welcome you to my table. In my gaming groups, cheaters don't get invited back. Admitted cheaters don't get invited in the first place. I've seen campaigns train-wrecked and fall apart because someone "fudge's the dice to fit their own desires". At that point, why even have dice? Why play? If you're just gonna change the outcome to your favor, why bother playing with other people at all?Do you feel the same way about the dm fudging rolls? Does that train wreck the game? I think if you only do it extremely rarely and only in story critical moments its not as big a deal as you are making it out to be. If we can trust a dm to do the exact same behavior for the right reasons, its possible to do so for players as well.
Dont get me wrong, I totally ascribe to the let the dice fall where they may mentality, but I can understand the other side of things.
I see being the DM a bit differently. The DM is responsible for a LOT more factors in the game. In my opinion, the DM's sole responsibility is to prodvide a fun backdrop for everyone(theirself included). Sometimes, in extreme circumstances, yes, fudging some dice. If a roll goes bad, or if the payer's are just on the receiving end of some particularly cruel dice on a given night, the DM has to weigh whether the outcome is for the good of the campign or not. If the party is facing a TPK, then I may slight the roll by a conditional(+/-4) modifier. Otherwise, the die stands as is.
The player in question, as in the OP's original statement, appears to be doing this on a regular basis. NOT in extreme circumstances. The player whom I responded to admitted to doing maybe once per session. This is entirely too often.
I like Kenderkin's idea of allowing one reroll a day/session. This might alleviate some of the need to cheat.
I'm a cheater. I've been playing for 5 years now, and yeah, I fudge my rolls every now and again. To me, cheating is like a form of player DM'ing- it's the only time you have a mechanical "say" in the world. When combat has gone on too long (hitting the 3 hour mark) because nobody in the group can seem to hit the enemy, I'll bump up a roll or two to help end the fight. When a player's character is on the line, I've "rolled" well on a stabilization check- but in our campaigns we play with perma-death. And yeah, when sessions have been sorta mundane I've been known to botch a particularly crucial save. In fact, I've been known as Mr. Unlucky by more than one group. :D
So yeah, I've modified the numbers to fit my own desires from the session- rarely more than once a night, if that, but it happens and I'm not really ashamed of it. I think you should try to figure out *why* your player is cheating. If this person is your friend, and you value his/her presence at your gaming sessions, I think that you should figure out why s/he's cheating. If it's because they want to be mechanically the best, I'd recommend trying to set the person straight (using any of the suggestions above) and then offer other ways to "be the best." If it's just the stuff like I mentioned above, I'd say let it go. But hey, I'm partial.
Yes, but then you don't fudge every single roll to make yourself look awesome, do you? There's a huge difference in scale between fudging a life-or-death roll once a session and: "Oh look! my fifth natural 20 in six rounds of combat! Looks like I win again! That's four kills to me and none to the rest of you guys - man do you all suck! I think I deserve a double treasure share for this!"
The first is not really noticeable, the second is blatant and spoiling everyone else's fun.
I like Kenderkin's idea of allowing one reroll a day/session. This might alleviate some of the need to cheat.
Or use the Action Point system out of Eberron. When the going gets tough and you failed the roll - spend an action point to add 1d6 to it! It's great for dramatic effect, and takes away the desire to fudge the dice because you can do so within the rules.
I welcome your input, even if I wouldn't welcome you to my table. In my gaming groups, cheaters don't get invited back. Admitted cheaters don't get invited in the first place. I've seen campaigns train-wrecked and fall apart because someone "fudge's the dice to fit their own desires". At that point, why even have dice? Why play? If you're just gonna change the outcome to your favor, why bother playing with other people at all?Do you feel the same way about the dm fudging rolls? Does that train wreck the game? I think if you only do it extremely rarely and only in story critical moments its not as big a deal as you are making it out to be. If we can trust a dm to do the exact same behavior for the right reasons, its possible to do so for players as well.
Dont get me wrong, I totally ascribe to the let the dice fall where they may mentality, but I can understand the other side of things.
I see being the DM a bit differently. The DM is responsible for a LOT more factors in the game. In my opinion, the DM's sole responsibility is to prodvide a fun backdrop for everyone(theirself included). Sometimes, in extreme circumstances, yes, fudging some dice. If a roll goes bad, or if the payer's are just on the receiving end of some particularly cruel dice on a given night, the DM has to weigh whether the outcome is for the good of the campign or not. If the party is facing a TPK, then I may slight the roll by a conditional(+/-4) modifier. Otherwise, the die stands as is.
The player in question, as in the OP's original statement, appears to be doing this on a regular basis. NOT in extreme circumstances. The player whom I responded to admitted to doing maybe once per session. This is entirely too often.
I like Kenderkin's idea of allowing one reroll a session. This might alleviate some of the need to cheat.
I agree that the player in question in the OP's statement is doing it more then could ever be acceptable, i was refering instead to the standard put forward by sean which defintately implied a rarity of this behavior. I have once in my memory deliberately fudged a series of dice rolls. It was when a dm followed a module a little too closely. We we came into conflict with a soothsayer suddenly and unexpectedly, and her rogue gypsy buddies ambushed us while she ran off. We fought off the rogues (which was against 8 level 5 rogues for a level 7 party), then chased her down since she still had the info we needed. We found her suddenly having become a buffed ogremage (an illusion made her appear initially humon) with 3 ogre buddies, a hard fight to begin with. Half way through the fight, with 1 party member down and the caster out of spells, a cloud giant busts into the clearing having crashed through the woods unheard and unseen in order to protect it's 'mother'. My scout apparently had no opportunity to notice a cloud giant running through the woods from some distance away.
The party was in dire straights, when the ogre mage was down, only I was up and bellow half hp facing a healthy cloud giant. The dm at this point realized he made a rather dire error in following with this encounter (the cloud giant surprising us made it impossible to run from the hard fight turned into an impossible one). So I fudged a series of rolls, and managed to just barely survive the encounter. To this day my group still talks about the encounter, I was able to revive my fallen players with potions and we even got some information from the ogre mage when we interegated her staggered self. A TPK would have ended the campaign as it turns out we had to kill the ogre mage, and she knew it, so it's not like she would have just captured us.
So in this situation, a little dice fudging on the player's part made the game better, and actually saved everyone's fun. I realize this is an extreme case, and ought to be very rare, I am just saying its not impossible for there to be good reason for a player to fudge dice.
What I prefer to this is something like an action point system, where a player can legaly 'fudge' some numbers. After all it always sucks to miss out on that important moment because you rolled crummy one time, or die because you failed that save you should have passed. And I agree that something like it will decrease player's urge to cheat, which is almost certainly a good thing, because once it is in the system, it is measurable, can be accounted for and there are no hard feelings between players or with the dm.
Aww, come on TOZ, don't make this an alignment debate =P
It sounds like you define "gauging an encounter" more in terms of a tactical sim than a role playing game. For me, what I want from my players is to have fun role playing. That means that, for example, if I have a player who wants to role play a character who makes mistakes (forex. one who is a...
For me, "gauging an encounter" means coming up with a challenging scenario for my players, based on what my players bring to the table. Case in point, in a game I am currently running, nearly the entire party are spellcasters. The closest thing to a competent melee type is the level 4 cleric with 12 STR. So, when choosing challenging encounters, I keep that in mind. A Golem would wreak havoc on the party, for example.
It makes these encounters difficult to gauge since the cheater is doing things above and beyond what they are capable of doing at their character's level. So, you bump up the CR. That may eventually slow the cheater down, but in the process makes the game exceedingly difficult for the honest players.
It's as simple as finding encounters you feel are appropriate for your players. Now, do you really not know how to do that, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
I used one example. Sue me. You're fishing for yet another argument over semantics. I'll tell you what; get yourself a party of low-level arcane spellcasters and toss them a Golem with Spell-Immunity. Count the bodies afterward and tell me how much fun they had.
Encounters are more than just combat, and if you are implying that my games are nothing more than tactical war games, you are sadly mistaken. Gauging encounters can be things like, for yet another example, if your party are playing a small contingent of mercenary barbarians, who prefer sharp objects to diplomacy, then planning a lengthy debate with the King of the land is asking for trouble. Sure, by all means still have it happen, but don't expect courtly behavior.
The party was in dire straights, when the ogre mage was down, only I was up and bellow half hp facing a healthy cloud giant. The dm at this point realized he made a rather dire error in following with this encounter (the cloud giant surprising us made it impossible to run from the hard fight turned into an impossible one). So I fudged a series of rolls, and managed to just barely survive the encounter. To this day my group still talks about the encounter, I was able to revive my fallen players with potions and we even got some information from the ogre mage when we interegated her staggered self. A TPK would have ended the campaign as it turns out we had to kill the ogre mage, and she knew it, so it's not like she would have just captured us.
So in this situation, a little dice fudging on the player's part made the game better, and actually saved everyone's fun. I realize this is an extreme case, and ought to be very rare, I am just saying its not impossible for there to be good reason for a player to fudge dice.
What I prefer to this is something like an action point system, where a player can legaly 'fudge' some numbers. After all it always sucks to miss out on that important moment because you rolled crummy one time, or die because you failed that save you should have passed. And I agree that something like it will decrease player's urge to cheat, which is almost certainly a good thing, because once it is in the system, it is measurable, can be accounted for and there are no hard feelings between players or with the dm.
This, I can definitely be in support of. I really liked using action dice in Eberron, and a similar mechanic with Force Points exists in Star Wars Saga Edition. This way if things aren't going your way, you can get a little nudge back your way and not derail the game. I'm all for it!
Tell all of your players that if the Gm doesn't acknowledge the roll (even by waiving the right to look), the roll doesn't count. Don't single this guy out, just make it your general policy.
Keep it simple, and don't be too strict. Cheaters really spoil their own fun in RPGs. A good character is derived from the adversities overcome.
Aww, come on TOZ, don't make this an alignment debate =P
I wonder if batman fudges his dice rolls...
Aww, come on TOZ, don't make this an alignment debate =PI wonder if batman fudges his dice rolls...
Well, we know Two-Face doesn't...
Does that make him Lawful for following a code, Chaotic for letting fate decide, or Neutral for doing both Lawful and Chaotic acts?Well, we know Two-Face doesn't...Aww, come on TOZ, don't make this an alignment debate =PI wonder if batman fudges his dice rolls...
He's clinically insane, alignment rules do not apply to him!
Plus, Batman does not fudge his dice rolls - he just has a lot of action points. Why? because he's Batman!
Use this.
Problem solved unless he has enough ranks in Sleight of Hand to ninja even this dice ;)
Plus, Batman does not fudge his dice rolls - he just has a lot of action points. Why? because he's Batman!
Okay, this I can agree with.
I think batman just stares down poorly rolled dice and they roll over to 20's because they fear the badassery.
I used one example. Sue me. You're fishing for yet another argument over semantics. I'll tell you what; get yourself a party of low-level arcane spellcasters and toss them a Golem with Spell-Immunity. Count the bodies afterward and tell me how much fun they had.Encounters are more than just combat, and if you are implying that my games are nothing more than tactical war games, you are sadly mistaken. Gauging encounters can be things like, for yet another example, if your party are playing a small contingent of mercenary barbarians, who prefer sharp objects to diplomacy, then planning a lengthy debate with the King of the land is asking for trouble. Sure, by all means still have it happen, but don't expect courtly behavior.
Looks like you are looking for an argument rather than just accepting that we play the game very differently.
I never said encounters are or are not more than just combat. You brought that up. I just pointed out that combat doesn't have to be done as a tactical sim.
Nope, you brought it up. Here:
It sounds like you define "gauging an encounter" more in terms of a tactical sim than a role playing game. For me, what I want from my players is to have fun role playing.
And yes, it sounds like we play profoundly different games. In my games, we role-play the characters we want to role play as, and every once in a while we do this thing called "combat", to advance the story by resolving conflict when diplomacy will not do. Seeing as how character's respective classes are adept at different facets of encounters(in and out of combat), I feel the need to gauge my encounters so that they play up to my player's strengths when possible.
I quoted you in saying that we disagree on the cheating thing, seeing as how I am fairly intolerant of cheaters and you see no problem with them as long as no one notices.
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Look at it from a different direction.
Cheating is aggravating, but what real harm are his actions causing? (this isn't an insinuation that his actions aren't harming anyone, rather it is a request for you to identify what harm his actions are causing)
Once you know the extent of the harm his actions are -actually- causing, then you know how far to press the issue. This can be all over the board.
Some GMs (and players) get overwraught just because somebody else isn't playing by the rules and they tend to overreact in ways which can be damaging to the campaign and detrimental to friendships. It's a game. Unless there's money on the line or he's actively harming someone else's ability to have fun, it probably doesn't matter whether the guy cheats.
I have experience with this kind of player before, not from a GM perspective but from a player perspective.
A new player in a group I had been involved in for a few months showed up with a character whose stats had been 'rolled' at home. The characters lowest stat was a 16 in a game that used 3d6 6 times then assign.
He also had uncanny luck with rolls, which were done usually behind cover of his hand and then immediately picked up. After noticing this I started tracking his rolls, and as a 3rd level character his total d20 attack rolls averaged at around 25.
I spoke with the GM one day after everybody had left, and he had noticed the same trend but didn't want to risk alienating him by doing something about it. I tried to tolerate it some more, but the combat and challenges we were facing were a joke because of this characters phenomenal 'rolls'. The rest of the group may as well have not been there, and so I lost interest in the game and left.
It can be really frustrating to other players to see somebody cheating, getting away with it, and in doing so completely trivializing the rest of the group.
See, a good cheater makes sure no one notices...er, I mean....
Surprisingly, if nobody is noticing it means they aren't cheating that much. Seriously, though, w0nkothesane has the right of it - cheating players can ruin the game for others even if they are too polite to protest. It's best to deal with it in a non-confrontational way, but it needs to be dealt with.
I had a player once who used to roll dice very low to the table and, if she didn't like the roll, would roll it again. It was so utterly obvious, undeniable, and irritating to the other players.
I eventually had to ask her, in front of the group: "What was your first roll result?" - which seemed to correct the problem from that point on.
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Aside from dealing with circumstances where you know a person is cheating - and simply suspect fudged rolls, you might consider another option.
One way is to have a "dice tray" - say like a 8x10 platter or baking dish of some sort, with sides. Place it squarely in front of you and declare that all rolls by all players must be done in the tray. Rolls falling outside the tray are not counted. This way you can see the rolls clearly and you're applying this method to all players (so no one person feels singled out). If you suspect a player of using fixed or funny dice, you can also have players only roll your specific set of dice.
Granted, these measures start to drain the fun out of the game but we are talking about cheaters here... which do drain the fun out of the game for those who don't cheat.
This is a very interesting conversation. I've been having rather similar problems. But...
My cheater, in my groups games was... trying to be subtle, but failed. The person themselves is a rather intelligent guy, but he would have stats that were higher, would min/max to levels that were insane, would try to get homebrew classes in on newer DMs, AND tried to used the infernal barrel d20s where when you bump the table slightly, that 2, becomes a 20.
Alright. Not very subtle. Also, he, and another player, would get into the most angering of debates, ICly and OOCly. Over who gets a +1 longsword.. This one, resulted in breaking of laptops, tables, and me ending the game for a hour. It was as though everyone dumped charisma, and continued to make diplomacy checks while Roleplaying intimidate checks.
Most of my players are over 18, and generally well-minded individuals. With the exception of two. The other, rolls high. All the time. When he DMs games, the casters have learned to NEVER choose spells that have Save DCs, because the dm always, always makes the save. Also, we never, ever, focus on AC, because its usually pointless in his games.
Though, the original cheater, was banned from the two places with play at. For cheating, being a huge disruption, property damage(He was a big dude), and being a part of arguements, that both sides would, for some bloody reason be unable to back down from. Now, seeing this from a DM perspective usually makes you wish you wielded the powers of God(Or a god depending on your beliefs) and smite the idiots involved.
Though, this was all last year. NOW, the player really, really, wants to play with us again. With the minus of the player he has a rivalry with. We have a game shop once again, so we could play there. But I'm worried that everyone is just going to turn this down, and since I'm the only player that is honest with -the cheater-, I get to tell him why others don't want to game with him.
Seriously. Godlike powers would be quite useful in fixing this.
As far as his reasons for cheating? In one instance, he was the rogue.
He tried to steal all the treasure in character, or out of character, finagle a way that he gets more gold. I.E. the longsword situation that resulted in everyone getting stupid angry and slamming the bloody table up and down on the floor. First time, and last time I have ever stopped a game for a hour so everyone got the -clincally insane- out of their system.
Okay. That ended up being alot more typing than I thought.
Just an aside comment on purported DM "cheating". I can honestly say that for as many (rare) times I may have fudged a die roll to further harm the PC's, I have fudged a die roll to further help them.
This is part of the job, IMO since, as a ref, your job is to further the story, be a neutral arbiter, and promote the fun (when the dice get in the way, for example).
These cheating players never cheated to further harm their own interests. Thus, fudging becomes cheating when it's one sided.
Think on that for a moment.
Just an aside comment on purported DM "cheating". I can honestly say that for as many (rare) times I may have fudged a die roll to further harm the PC's, I have fudged a die roll to further help them.
This is part of the job, IMO since, as a ref, your job is to further the story, be a neutral arbiter, and promote the fun (when the dice get in the way, for example).
These cheating players never cheated to further harm their own interests. Thus, fudging becomes cheating when it's one sided.
QFT. As a DM I fudge rolls, but only in the interest of making the game better. I am also happy to turn a blind eye on a bad roll at the end of a string of bad rolls being 'bumped' by the player (although this became unnecessary once we started using Action Points). But the constant roll-and-snatch natural twenties that spoil everyone's fun are something I have to sit on whenever I encounter them, because it's always best to do this before the game gets ruined for everyone.
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QFT. As a DM I fudge rolls, but only in the interest of making the game better. I am also happy to turn a blind eye on a bad roll at the end of a string of bad rolls being 'bumped' by the player (although this became unnecessary once we started using Action Points). But the constant roll-and-snatch natural twenties that spoil everyone's fun are something I have to sit on whenever I encounter them, because it's always best to do this before the game gets ruined for everyone.Just an aside comment on purported DM "cheating". I can honestly say that for as many (rare) times I may have fudged a die roll to further harm the PC's, I have fudged a die roll to further help them.
This is part of the job, IMO since, as a ref, your job is to further the story, be a neutral arbiter, and promote the fun (when the dice get in the way, for example).
These cheating players never cheated to further harm their own interests. Thus, fudging becomes cheating when it's one sided.
That's the problem. People assume that when a GM cheats, it's to further the game, but a player who isn't a GM doesn't have the maturity to cheat so as to further the game? Maybe these people have never had mature players at their table. But many of us have. As such, we know that a player can cheat to further the game.
Consider this hypothetical. A player makes an incredible die roll and, so, prevents another PC from dying. Everybody is excited and happy. Only, you, the GM, noticed the die roll and know the player cheated. What do you do?
Talk to them after the game. Let them know that you know what they did and why they did it, but you would appreciate it if they let the dice speak for themselves.
My issues with cheating has been a player who will fail a DC by 1 or 2 points then go back over his character sheet and realize he "miscalculated" his saving throw value or skill check value and bump it up just enough to make the roll. In situations like these, if it's not on their sheet it doesn't count.
QFT. As a DM I fudge rolls, but only in the interest of making the game better. I am also happy to turn a blind eye on a bad roll at the end of a string of bad rolls being 'bumped' by the player (although this became unnecessary once we started using Action Points). But the constant roll-and-snatch natural twenties that spoil everyone's fun are something I have to sit on whenever I encounter them, because it's always best to do this before the game gets ruined for everyone.Just an aside comment on purported DM "cheating". I can honestly say that for as many (rare) times I may have fudged a die roll to further harm the PC's, I have fudged a die roll to further help them.
This is part of the job, IMO since, as a ref, your job is to further the story, be a neutral arbiter, and promote the fun (when the dice get in the way, for example).
These cheating players never cheated to further harm their own interests. Thus, fudging becomes cheating when it's one sided.
That's the problem. People assume that when a GM cheats, it's to further the game, but a player who isn't a GM doesn't have the maturity to cheat so as to further the game? Maybe these people have never had mature players at their table. But many of us have. As such, we know that a player can cheat to further the game.
Consider this hypothetical. A player makes an incredible die roll and, so, prevents another PC from dying. Everybody is excited and happy. Only, you, the GM, noticed the die roll and know the player cheated. What do you do?
I think this was the point i was trying to get across. Everyone in my group DMs. There is not some holy divide between us where we arent capable of making that kind of decision. It doesnt happen very often but I have seen maybe once every couple of sessions someone pick up a die that was rolled before people can see it, at some critical moment. And it usually has been a moment when failure would have been bad for the party. I completely agree that people who are 'extremely lucky' and constantly cheat rolls for their own gain are bad for any game. But it is not impossible for a player to fudge a die roll at a time that is good for the game.
And actually I have fudge dice rolls against myself at times. There was one game when the double crit kill was in effect. Roll a 20, roll a 20, then confirm and whatever it was is dead. Well we came around to the big fight, and my charging smiting rebalanced paladin with rhino rush rolled a crit of a natural 20, sweet this big bad is in for a world of hurt, oi, rolled another 20...roll to confirm...'damn i rolled a 2 (it was actually a 15 which would have confirmed the double nat 20).
More recently, in a low level session my summoner had been kicking some serious butt. There were 2 other melee characters in the party but they werent particularly well built. I dominated the first 2 combats with some lucky rolls and good tactics (i love the grease spell). So I conveniently starting missing with my attack rolls in the 3rd combat of the session. Usually only acknowledging one or the hits my summoner, eidolon or summon made.
Afterwards I helped the other 2 melee characters optimize a little more but thats besides the point.
The player listens to you and agrees. But after a month or two of real time, a situation comes up where the player makes another incredible roll - this time to circumvent a bad rolling streak which has affected everyone around the table and is about to end up in a tpk.
Again, everybody is excited and happy. Again, you notice that he cheated.
What do you do?
I would look over the screen at him, giving him the over the eyeglasses look of the ticked off librarian, and say "Dude?". If he doesn't back off, I would call him on it.
I use action points and allow luck feats that can involve re-rolls. So there is player fudging going on at my table - in an organized and structured way, which I believe is the appropriate method for player fudging. They won't save the party from everything, but they help.
I won't abide willy-nilly player fudging to avoid the consequences of poor decision-making or failing to react to a run of bad luck.
QFT. As a DM I fudge rolls, but only in the interest of making the game better. I am also happy to turn a blind eye on a bad roll at the end of a string of bad rolls being 'bumped' by the player (although this became unnecessary once we started using Action Points). But the constant roll-and-snatch natural twenties that spoil everyone's fun are something I have to sit on whenever I encounter them, because it's always best to do this before the game gets ruined for everyone.Just an aside comment on purported DM "cheating". I can honestly say that for as many (rare) times I may have fudged a die roll to further harm the PC's, I have fudged a die roll to further help them.
This is part of the job, IMO since, as a ref, your job is to further the story, be a neutral arbiter, and promote the fun (when the dice get in the way, for example).
These cheating players never cheated to further harm their own interests. Thus, fudging becomes cheating when it's one sided.
That's the problem. People assume that when a GM cheats, it's to further the game, but a player who isn't a GM doesn't have the maturity to cheat so as to further the game? Maybe these people have never had mature players at their table. But many of us have. As such, we know that a player can cheat to further the game.
Consider this hypothetical. A player makes an incredible die roll and, so, prevents another PC from dying. Everybody is excited and happy. Only, you, the GM, noticed the die roll and know the player cheated. What do you do?
Myself, I let it lie - because if the player hadn't fudged, I would have. If he then took this as carte blanch to cheat, I'd speak to them in private about it.
But as I said, using an Action Point system takes away 95% of the 'need' to cheat in such circumstances.
However, where a player is cheating for their own ends and potentially spoiling the game for others, the DM has a duty to do something about it.
I am getting into this discussion a little late, but from a players perspective I find cheating extremely harmful to the game. The cheater I am talking about is the one who always seems to make the important rolls, if a skill check is real important it is passed, if a save is versus something that would really hurt the character it is passed. In combat he/she hits 50% or so more often than they should, that type of player.
At least to me as a player the greatest thing about D&D combat is surviving against all odds, and a cheater really makes that near impossible. There will be nights when everyone is rolling bad, your cleric failed that easy save vs fear, your fighter can't hit the ground he is standing on and so forth. But somehow combining Grease, Silent Image and your last bottle of Alchemist's Fire you save the party with a McGyver like plan. That is the sort of thing that will become a legend in your gaming group. Yet if Bill the rogue has been making every single sneak check with a 30, and somehow manages to hit the anti-paladin in full plate with his measly +4 attack bonus every round there is no need for some crazy plan to save the party cause don't worry when everything hits the fan Bill is always manages to go on a 'lucky streak'.
If you let this go on game session after game session, maybe your players won't openly complain but trust me some of them will get bitter eventually.
Hmmm... Our AoW group was hit with a Disjunction spell fighting Darl the cleric of Vecna a few sessions ago. We are playing 3.5 and switching to Pathfinder for STAP, but in 3.5 Disjunction is wicked.
So everyone at the table is going over their sheets and making a crapload of Will saves. There are 7 players and a cohort so the DM just takes everyone's word for each item. And there are lots of goodies. I run a cleric with a +17 will mod. And I lose my two most powerful items. I'm all bummed and slowly getting mad at the evil SOB who just crapped in my cheerios.
Then I realize that only myself and the youngest player at the table (13) lost anything of importance. Really? Really?!? The fighter and barbarian? Really?
I didn't cause a scene but I've dropped a couple comments here and there.
Now I really don't know if anyone fudged any rolls but it seems a bit fishy. And if they did fudge rolls and I took the railing... I feel cheated by everyone else. I'm not mad at the DM I'm disappointed in my fellow players.
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Story Trumps Rules, but it is the GM's job to make sure that happens. It's the player's job to play by the rules and try to move the story forward.
If the party is about to TPK, the last man standing could "fudge" a roll that everyone knows he failed, or the GM could take the legit roll and "fudge" the result. The preferred method is the second (I think the GMing portion of the book even advises it in extreme situations).
In the first case, the player fudging would say "its the same thing, dying here is lame, having someone swoop in and save us is lame, and Story Trumps Rules so its ok". But the counter to that is: the GM is the one "in charge" of the story (as much as one person can be in charge of a shared story).
It's not the Player's role to prevent the rules (or chance) from screwing up the story - it's the Game Master's role. If the party is about to wipe, it's time for the GM to start missing, rolling low on damage, lowering the enemies remaining HP, and in extreme cases lowering the bosses (otherwise static) defenses. It's not the player's place to do the opposite to himself.
As soon as a player steps over that barrier, breaks that trust, the entire group could unravel. It doesn't always happen, of course, but it's a gray and nebulous area that a player who respects his group will not drag them into.
Which, ultimately, is the core of the problem - respect. When a GM cheats to save the party (or to compensate for their power-builds), he makes things more fun for everyone, and even the players who notice generally don't mind (as long as he's not just screwing the players over). When a player cheats, he makes things more fun for himself at the cost of less fun for everyone else.
It's selfish, unfair, and disrespectful to everyone gaming with the cheating player.
When a player cheats, he is saying "all of you have to play by the rules all the time, but I am awesome and special so I only have to play by the rules when i want to". Even if he cheats for altruistic reasons, he's still saying "I do not trust the other players to come up with a legit way out of this, nor do I trust the GM not to screw us over".
It's a jerk move. Call him out on it, explain why it's a jerk move and ask him to stop. If he refuses (or says he will but keeps on doing it), tell the group that you think he is cheating, explain why, inform them that you do not particularly enjoy playing with a person who is cheating, and ask how they feel about the matter. If they disagree with you or defend him, or if he still cheats, reiterate your feelings and options and walk away - this is not the group for you.
Either you are willing to put up with a certain amount of crap to game (in which case this topic would not exist), or you are not willing to put up with a certain amount of crap to game (and will walk away rather than put up with it). Be the later, it's far more relaxing on a personal level.
Player
1. (probable cheater): 20.13
2. 14.63
3. 11.13
4. 14.38
5. 16.5
DM. 16.5Any thoughts on how I should address this? He's an adult, so I want to treat him as such.
This is particularly bad information. Unfortunately, you don't have a drop of evidence in this case. If you had a sample size of 100 initiatives and you knew the character's initiative score, that might be helpful. But a tiny amount of rolls is rather useless for statistical interpretation. There's also nothing preventing this result from happening naturally *assuming the character's initiative score is greater than zero*. But, for instance, if he's playing a 4th level bow-focused ranger with Improved Initiative and on his primary favored terrain, he could easily have a +11 initiative bonus -- meaning his average roll should be 21.5.
Seeing your look, he backs off and says, "no, I made a mistake. I failed that roll". Everybody was happy and excited, now they aren't. The tpk happens. Oh wait, no it doesn't. You, being the "merciful" GM, bring in the heavy hand of a Deus Ex Machina and the party is saved. Sure, they aren't happy about it. They know they were saved by GM intervention, but what does that matter? You've proven to everyone at the table that you are the puppet master.
Oh, sure. Let's put the worst possible spin on this without knowing a thing about me other than what I just said about not abiding cheating by my players.
I could just let the TPK stand (in fact, I probably would). I might just capture PCs who could be saved. It depends on what they're doing at the time, who they're fighting, and if their opponent would see any value in having hostages.
However you play, make sure everyone agrees on the rules, whether it is dice rolling, action/luck points, DM fudging, whatever, because this is the basis to determine if anyone is actually "cheating". Then implement a three strikes and your out rule, and vote by consensus.
Typically if something can't be resolved with a clear set of rules, then there is some type of personality conflict, and good luck with that.
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As a DM, I have noticed two different groups of players who cheat. One is the occasional "extra +1" that makes it just enough to hit, or the "my dice rolled off the book so I rolled it again", which is not great, but does not destroy the game. If that gets out of hand, usually just making some comment about it to the player fixes the problem. The other kind, where they nearly always make rolls, even ridiculous ones, always hit, do such high damage amounts that you have sometimes have to calculate to see if it is even possible to reach that amount, etc. This type of player, in my experience, is not going to change. For whatever reason, they have the need to hyper excel, succeed, overdo, take all the loot, be invincible, or whatever emotional insecurity they are bringing to your table. Either that or they have no clue how ridiculously obvious their cheating is, which is just as scary. The first kind you just make a DM intimidate check occasionally to keep them in line. The second type of player you have to address.
As far as DM cheating, too much fudging or doing it so your players know is just as damaging, if in a different way. If they think you will fudge on their behalf, they sometimes take too many risks, or encourage others to, "knowing" you will save them. If you do, they take even more, if you don't, they can feel betrayed, because to them, you changed the "rules" on them.
The player listens to you and agrees. But after a month or two of real time, a situation comes up where the player makes another incredible roll - this time to circumvent a bad rolling streak which has affected everyone around the table and is about to end up in a tpk.
Again, everybody is excited and happy. Again, you notice that he cheated.
What do you do?I would look over the screen at him, giving him the over the eyeglasses look of the ticked off librarian, and say "Dude?". If he doesn't back off, I would call him on it.
I use action points and allow luck feats that can involve re-rolls. So there is player fudging going on at my table - in an organized and structured way, which I believe is the appropriate method for player fudging. They won't save the party from everything, but they help.
I won't abide willy-nilly player fudging to avoid the consequences of poor decision-making or failing to react to a run of bad luck.
THIS.
If youre a player cheating at the table then youre questionable, FOR WHATEVER REASON. Because either way you are designating your own outcome while the other players are not.
I use action points at my table as well. In fact in my last game one of my players got hit with a crit from and orc. Now I told them that I had problems with having flunkies draw from the Critical Hit Deck, but the players INSISTED. So I had her (the player) draw from the deck and sure enough she drew decapitation (Double Damage + FORT Save or DIE) and guess what? She failed her Fort save.
Of course she was bummed and it was near the beginning of the session so I proposed that if everyone wanted to give up an Action Point to keep her alive (the blow wasn't as serious as it looked. It brought her down to -1 and she would still have to Stabilize but there would be many chances for her companions to get her help...) I'd be behind it. And all of the players DID IT without flinching. That was one way where you place control of the story and the characters in the hands of the PC's. All it would have taken was one player to refuse and she would have stayed dead, but they didn't do that.
For me honesty and fair play is a big deal, If I can't trust you then I dont want you at my table.
As far as DM fudging goes, I tend to minimize that (with a few exceptions I try to roll in front of my players). Even in fights vs. "solo's" or "elites" (relax I play Pathfinder but I use some ideas from TRAILBLAZER as well...) I have a hit point buffet, the first number being the average die per HD for the creature (a 6d10 creature would have 30hp) then maximum hit points for the creature, then DOUBLE the hit Points for the creature. This way if the fight is going really BAD for the PC's I'll use the first number for the creature, If the fight is fairly even I use the middle number, if the fight is going really EASY for the PC's I'll use the last number.
Example: vs. A Phase Spider it's HP buffet would be (48/78/156). During the first few rounds of combat you do get an idea of how it's going. So if the PC's are doing well, I'd use the 78hp number, if they are doing pretty poorly then I'd use the 48hp number, if they are doing awesomely then I'd use the 156hp number. This is in conjunction with action points for "solo" type creatures as well. If the solo is doing really well vs. the PC's I don't use action points for things like extra attacks. I may even limit the amount that they use, but if they're getting their asses kicked then it's action point city.
All I'm saying is that there are ways to play the game without being a cheat. Granted these are things that you'd need to talk to your DM about but there should be some sort of conversation about this sort of stuff ANYWAYS. That way you can find out if this particular game is the game for you. and before anyone asks, YES, I'm a big proponent of no gaming is better than Bad gaming or gaming that I'm not enjoying.
I'm sorry cheating really says something about a persons character, and it usually isn't good. IMHO anyway.