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I have been chewing over this question. A paladin, if he grossly violates his code, looses his paladinhood, A cleric, if he grossly violates his ethos, looses all of his spell casting and class abilites.
What about a witch, who makes a pack with a devil or demon for power? what about a wizard? A summoner wizard ? a Necromancer?
What about those classes who have quasits or imps for familiers? I cant believe that these evil powers would give something for nothing.
my only thought is this, if someone choses to use the powers of evil, shouldn't it come with a price? after all you don't get to wield the powers of good for free, you have to follow their rules. i thing the same would be true for the powers of evil even more so.
what are your thoughts?
thanks
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Most arcane spellcasters aren't 'given' the power. They take it by strength of will and knowledge of the rules. I think the forces of evil are more than willing to 'gift' the mage with a familiar, because that means they are predisposed to commit evil, and having the familiar is just another force to push him towards the service of evil. Why charge for it when it will get them his soul that much quicker? It's no different from the 'free 100 dollars when you open an account' deal at banks. They'll be making more money off of you once they get you in the door than that 100 dollars they spend to get you.
Price for power? Capitalist pig! ;-)
I have been chewing over this question. A paladin, if he grossly violates his code, looses his paladinhood, A cleric, if he grossly violates his ethos, looses all of his spell casting and class abilites.
Power that is given can be taken away again. When getting a free ride, you have to obey to some rules.
You know what they say: Those who are born with power use it. Those who are born without pray for it for the rest of their lives.
What about a witch, who makes a pack with a devil or demon for power? what about a wizard? A summoner wizard ? a Necromancer?What about those classes who have quasits or imps for familiers? I cant believe that these evil powers would give something for nothing.
my only thought is this, if someone choses to use the powers of evil, shouldn't it come with a price? after all you don't get to wield the powers of good for free, you have to follow their rules. i thing the same would be true for the powers of evil even more so.
So you say evil clerics can do what they want? They surely cannot.
Divine casters aren't always good. arcane casters aren't always evil.
It's important to make the right distinctions. It's not good or evil that is the matter here. It's arcane or divine.
Arcane power doesn't come from a divine source. You take it and use it. The power doesn't care what you use it for.
Of course, the arcanist who commits atrocities will get what they got coming. Hell, Abaddon and the Abyss is open to everybody who will make the effort to get there.
And a wizard can pretty much wield the power of goodness for free, too. Conjure up an angel and it will come. Depending on how you conjure it, you might not even to negotiate the terms of its service.
True but if a 20th level conjurerer no matter what his alignment decides to make the angel a permanent summon, it's superior might decicde to find out why it's minion is missing.
And a wizard can pretty much wield the power of goodness for free, too. Conjure up an angel and it will come. Depending on how you conjure it, you might not even to negotiate the terms of its service.
Maybe. Depends on how you see the whole summoning business. It's possible that those creatures you can summon have their "summonable" switch turned to "on", and I think that you get to have a look at someone who wants to make you his permanent.
I think the "price" you pay for your behaviour, the consequences you incur for your choices, are the usual in this case. If you do, say, evil deeds, you will be noticed and the forces of good (in this case) might decide to deal with you. That's as true for someone who summons a celestial to do evil as for a wizard who throws meteors at hospitals and orphanages as an idle pastime.
The big difference is that the cleric of Serenrae who starts using his firestorms to torch innocents will very quickly find that his divine powers do no longer work - at least no the way he wants them to work. In such a case, it's possible that Serenrae would divert the power and he'd find himself in the very pillar of flame he just wanted to engulf hapless innocents with. A user of divine magic has to be prepared for repercussions of a far quicker and more direct nature than someone who uses other sorts of power.
Clerics (and rangers, and Paladin) have full access to their complete spell list whenever they attain sufficient level to cast a new rank of spells.
They merely browse through the PHB each morning and select their spells.
The Wizard on the other hand has to select 2 spells each level to get for free, and otherwise has to *pay for every single spell he gets*. He either has to pay up front (through scrolls) or take his share of the party loot in scrolls or enemy spell books.
In short- there is a price for power and his spell book is that very literal cost.
The Cleric and Pally aren't short changed at all.
-S
I don't know if there's anyone out there that will say dealing with devils or demons is completely without a price. :)
Except ...
Far too many Munchkins will ignore the "theoretical" character cost for the right now - at the table - game advantage.
Remember, this is DnD.
In DnD, being evil in life just means you get rewarded by some evil god who happens to be just as powerful as some good god. This means that pacts with dark gods of demon lords are not actually a bad deal, in most senses.
Purely as a game, there is a reason why there is no price: there actually is. You see, Wizards have spellbooks and Sorcerers have spells known and Clerics have codes of conduct and all of these things are ways that spellcasters can get screwed over by enemies or DMs looking to de-power them for a particular adventure.
I don't know if there's anyone out there that will say dealing with devils or demons is completely without a price. :)Except ...
Far too many Munchkins will ignore the "theoretical" character cost for the right now - at the table - game advantage.
Just like the people who make the deals in the first place :-)
R.
Ergo, munchkins go to hell!
In DnD, being evil in life just means you get rewarded by some evil god who happens to be just as powerful as some good god. This means that pacts with dark gods of demon lords are not actually a bad deal, in most senses.
Unless you go to hell, of course. Which is where you'll end up if you make a deal with a devil. You signed it, go to hell, do not pass go, do not collect redemption. We hope you enjoy the aeons of suffering we have prepared for you and look forward of having your soul converted into a lowly devil to serve Hell forthwith!
Can you take your illusions of democracy somewhere else, please? ;-P
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Thank you all for your posts. I have enjoyed reading the thread. Perhaps the question of a price for power should be best addressed in a home game. My only thoughts being this: If the powers of good require their followers to follow an ethical code or they loose their granted powers, I think that in the case where characters make deals with evil entities in exchange for power, they would require either payment in terms of the characters soul, or to be an active agent doing favors and fulfilling tasks.
It may be that if the character has sold his soul, then he cant be raised from the dead. Possibly if the character refuses a request from his patron, the patron might withhold some power, in terms spells class abilities etc.
In terms of sorcerers who have power in their blood line, and wizards who draw their spells from the formulae in their spell book, their power is their own. However, it might be interesting to have a character negotiate a contract a with a devil; to have a character win an charisma check or intimidate check with a demon if they frequently summon them. In the case of necromancy, where an evil spell like animate dead is cast, it might be interesting to have the caster make fortitude saves to avoid having ones constitution temporarily damaged from the exposure to the negative energy required to animate a dead corpse, and a fortitude save to avoid contracting a disease from exposure to a dead corpse.
Just some thoughts.
Reminds me of my character in my previous game back home. I played an Elf Cleric (of Solonor, cg faerunian god of archery and hunters). The campaign was very heavily anti-devil. Along the way Malkezid ends up manipulating events to make my character think that my allies lives were in danger, and the only way to stop it is to 'sign the contract'. So, I did. Turns out it was a roleplayed nightmare spell. Several levels later, we're in a town that has this tinker gnome who makes golems. Wierd golems. Special golems. Fighting them, and defeating them, allows you to 'take their essence' in order to 'upgrade' minor artifact weapons to major artifacts. Well, I had some sort of icy longsword, and fought the Ice Golem. He got a lucky hit off and critted me in the face for well over massive damage. I roll my fortitude save vs massive damage, and I rolled a 1. Not just dead. But my soul now belongs to Malkezid, and I'm forced to do his bidding, and was immediately turned into one of his favoured creations: the "Formless Fiend". That was the end of my character Nym
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Unless you go to hell, of course. Which is where you'll end up if you make a deal with a devil. You signed it, go to hell, do not pass go, do not collect redemption. We hope you enjoy the aeons of suffering we have prepared for you and look forward of having your soul converted into a lowly devil to serve Hell forthwith!
See, this is why I sign up with Hextor and avoid all that nasty devil business. :)
my 2cp for the discussion.
All spellasters pay for power.
Clerics/pally's/druids/rangers etc. all pay by following a code of conduct or ethoes.
When my druid had illegal setlers try and invade his area and they knew they were violating the barons and kings law but didn't care because their families were starvng. My druid waited till they were all asleep one night in the sheltter they had built and after warping the doors shut, a call lightning or two later they were all dead. Thus solveing their overpopulation problem and saveing my beloved forest. If I had failed to protect nature I would have lost my power, if the paladin in my party ever found out what I did and failed to try and bring me in for murder he would have lost his powers. The lawful good cleric did her thing by takeing care of any survivors,there wernt any when I checked in charecter but the DM wanted to make things intresteing so some kids survived in the basement.
Wizards and other arcanists pay in gold and other ways. Try casting a stoneskin without the diamnod dust. or summon a planular creature and not have payment ready. as far as witches and other extra planular dealers the price is generally the soul of the seeker.
everything has its price. except for broken ass melle classes that can do firball damage per hit all day long and nobody says anything cause they cant do AOE or their not broken like spellcasters sem to be, but thats a diffrent thread.
firball
I have no intention to correct your every spelling mistake, but this one warrants comment.
Before google entered the search engine scene and became the de facto standard, everyone had his favourite search engine (different engines, you understand). A friend and fellow student of mine preferred fireball.de (they're still around).
We were in one of the computer rooms of our university (in between lectures) and he wanted to search something.
But he misspelled it, writing firball.de instead - and back in the day, this was some kind of porn page. Of course, he made that error just as I glanced over to his screen.
Needless to say, he never made that error again. Our relentless teasing for half a week saw to that.
"You sicko! can't you do that stuff at home?" "Do you need some privacy?" "You know the weirdest sites, man. So, is this one with dogs or something?" "What else are you into?" "Do I need to warn the female students? Or perhaps the male ones?" and so on.
Ah, those were the days. :)
My only thoughts being this: If the powers of good require their followers to follow an ethical code or they loose their granted powers
Let me reiterate: It has nothing at all to do with good or evil.
It has everything to do with where the power comes from.
A cleric or other divine spellcaster has a code to fulfil. Doesn't matter whether he is good, evil, lawful or chaotic, or nothing of this or a mix or whatever. A LE priest of Asmodeus has a code, too. If he doesn't advance Hell's agenda, he'll find himself powerless.
Wizards don't have this sort of supervision with their power, whether they're good or bad. A guy who summons a demon (with a simple summon monster spell) for his work is in no way forced to use this demons for nefarious purposes. He can be a lawful good conjurer fighting a devil and finding the chaotic demon to be the best tool for the shop.
That wizard's choice might have consequences in the long run, but it's nothing compared to what happens to a priest who violates his code.
I think that in the case where characters make deals with evil entities in exchange for power, they would require either payment in terms of the characters soul, or to be an active agent doing favors and fulfilling tasks.
It may be that if the character has sold his soul, then he cant be raised from the dead. Possibly if the character refuses a request from his patron, the patron might withhold some power, in terms spells class abilities etc.
Look at spells like planar binding. You have to make a deal with the summoned critter there. Other than that, the arcane classes don't really draw their power from a pact with an otherworldly entity, at least not per default.
I think this has to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis: If someone forges a pact with a devil, he'll be bound to it. But since no class in the game requires such a pact, you don't have to hard-code it into the rules.
However, it might be interesting to have a character negotiate a contract a with a devil;
As I said: Case by case basis. Maybe draw up some "pact feats" if you want game mechanics for it.
In the case of necromancy, where an evil spell like animate dead is cast, it might be interesting to have the caster make fortitude saves to avoid having ones constitution temporarily damaged from the exposure to the negative energy required to animate a dead corpse, and a fortitude save to avoid contracting a disease from exposure to a dead corpse.
Unless you boost those spells to off-set this, you'll just punish necromancers.
And why pick on necromancers? What about the rest? Why won't those who summon demons contract a form of insanity from the inherent destructiveness in a demon's being? Why don't devils get a chance to mentally dominate you whenever you summon them, them being the Great Beyond's ultimate oppressors? Why won't you go blind from seeing an angel (or other celestial)?
Hmm.. Pact feats..
OP, the difference between the two is commonly here the difference between arcane and divine. The arcane produces it through themselves, which in the end means they suffer from wearing armor and are less able to focus on combat.
I removed some gratuitous flamebait. Play nice.
Unless you boost those spells to off-set this, you'll just punish necromancers.
And why pick on necromancers? What about the rest? Why won't those who summon demons contract a form of insanity from the inherent destructiveness in a demon's being? Why don't devils get a chance to mentally dominate you whenever you summon them, them being the Great Beyond's ultimate oppressors? Why won't you go blind from seeing an angel (or other celestial)?
Yeh, this is an important consideration because people like to make the mistake where "higher price = more power" is some kind of fair trade. It makes a certain sense from a RP standpoint, but makes for bad game mechanics because at the end of the day more power is still more power.
I mean, people always find way to minimize or negate their weaknesses, but at the core of the problem is the fact that more power is always more power. I mean, take Planar Binding: sure, a DM can play up the price and cause demons to take great offense at being bound and then seek you out weeks or months later, but who cares? It's just more XP.
By the same token, various taint or corruption costs don't stop people from taking powerful abilities. Heck, Lahm's Finger Darts shoots off your fingers and it's still a spell I'd take in a New York minute.
agreed K but blinding eyebite is pretty cool too. Fail save perm. blindness from a first lvl spell.
I'm curious if the original poster has ever played shadowrun and if thats what he would be considering as a "price for power"
For those unaware of that system the casters need to roll vs drain for every spell cast but if it's low level or an easy spell the drain is nothing and so you can let lose with a fireball against the cops or drug dealers or whatever all day long.
Thats the best example I can think of for a magical price.
(no spelling mistakes, I can spell I just don't worry about it most of the time)
Wizards and sorcerers pay for their power in different ways:
Consider:
Cleric - 9th level spells, 2 good saves, medium BAB/HD, cast in armor, channel energy, spells are *free* -- Continuously sucking up to some "god"
Compared too:
Wizard/Sorcerer - 9th level spells, 1 good save, poor BAB/HD, don't cast in armor, no channel energy, pay for spells or limited access -- No need for the "god"
You get a harder lot in life, but it is your own.
And as KaeYoss pointed out -- it's not a good or evil thing -- that wizard could make a pack with an angel just as quickly as he can with a devil -- and neither being would have any actual or direct impact on what he gets from his class -- other abilities or goods maybe, and the price is negoiated between the creatures involved -- but anyone in D&D (pathfinder) can do this -- it has nothing to do with class abilties.