This is probably pretty obvious, but when using Giant Form II, it says it functions the same as the first, except you can take a huge form. The stats are better for Giant Form II. I'm thinking that in order to get better stats you have to be huge, but I have a player disagreeing per RAW that since it functions the same as Giant Form I that he can be Large and he would still get these stats (the Giant Form I stat boosts apply instead here IMO). Am I wrong here or is he? (Just looking for a second opinion).
EDIT: This would also apply to the Forms of the Dragon too...
This is probably pretty obvious, but when using Giant Form II, it says it functions the same as the first, except you can take a huge form. The stats are better for Giant Form II. I'm thinking that in order to get better stats you have to be huge, but I have a player disagreeing per RAW that since it functions the same as Giant Form I that he can be Large and he would still get these stats (the Giant Form I stat boosts apply instead here IMO). Am I wrong here or is he? (Just looking for a second opinion).
EDIT: This would also apply to the Forms of the Dragon too...
First, you can't take the form of a Huge creature and become Large in order to get the special benefits of the Huge creature(darvision, rend, etc.). You take the Large version of the creature or the Huge version, not a mix.
If a Large creature would get the bonus of Giant II form, I don't know. But the spells don't say that you get the usual reach for that size, i.e., use your common sense.
Rules for Transmutation are in page 211, but I can't get an answer from there.
Contrarily to the Beast Shape family, Giant Form and Dragon Form don't separate the abilities gained by the spell and the stat modifiers gained by the form.
Reading the spell GF2 as it's currently written (it doesn't even say like GF1 "Once you assume your new form"), I understand that you gain the listed stat modifiers (Str+8 etc) regardless of the size you choose to be (however, the listed abilities, like regeneration, depend on the chosen form: a Large Giant might have Rend 2d6 and not 2d8).
In simple terms, it can be argued as "more spell power gives more punch". But your regular DM might not let that fly. Mileage may vary, etc.
You take the Large version of the creature or the Huge version, not a mix.
I agree with you but keep in mind that Polymorph spells actually do some mixing, because you don't always gain all the abilities of the creature you are morphing into, only those in the list given in the spell.
I agree with your player; the better stats given by Giant Form II apply regardless of whether you choose a Large or Huge giant. In the same way, you get access to more abilities of the Large giant according to the GFII spell description.
As mentioned above, this is different from Beast Shape, where the stat increases are size-dependent and so do not change from one spell to the next.
I don't think it's clear one way or the other, but I would lean towards only Huge forms getting the better stats (although you'd still get fire immunity if you used Giant Form II to become a fire giant, rather than fire resistance 20).
At any rate, it's not clear so I'd say it's up to the GM to decide.
considering the stat difference bwteen large and huge giant forms don't match up with the stat differences between monster base large and huge forms one could argue its the spell granting power not the size.
although I also agree DM approval here becuase
Elemental Body 4, would by the same token it be fair the get the bonus for being Huge while in a small elemental form ?
Thank you all for your responses. Perhaps we could get an official ruling on this due to the spells vagueness here? I see both sides of the fence. The main reason I sided with the "needs to be large" camp is because the rend goes up one damage step from 2d6 to 2d8 (typical of increasing a size catagory).
Either way I guess it's GM fiat... thanks everyone!
Elemental Body 4, would by the same token it be fair the get the bonus for being Huge while in a small elemental form ?
The spell description doesn't say that the EBIV bonuses are for being Huge; it says that the bonuses are based on which type of elemental you become. The bonuses are also obviously not based on the size but rather on the form -- a Huge creature generally does get a +6 to dexterity, for example.
So, yes, I would say that someone casting Elemental Body IV could choose any air elemental between sizes Small and Huge and get the same ability bonuses and fly speed.Also, the fact that Elemental Body specifically notes that abilities like vortex and burn are based on size, implies that the other abilities aren't.
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Elemental Body 4, would by the same token it be fair the get the bonus for being Huge while in a small elemental form ?The spell description doesn't say that the EBIV bonuses are for being Huge; it says that the bonuses are based on which type of elemental you become. The bonuses are also obviously not based on the size but rather on the form -- a Huge creature generally does get a +6 to dexterity, for example.
So, yes, I would say that someone casting Elemental Body IV could choose any air elemental between sizes Small and Huge and get the same ability bonuses and fly speed.
Also, the fact that Elemental Body specifically notes that abilities like vortex and burn are based on size, implies that the other abilities aren't.
If it were obvious then threads like this wouldn't come up.
Elemental body says "If the form you take is that of a Small earth elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +4 natural armor bonus."
So it seems pretty clear right there that if you are small regardless of the spell cast those are the bonuses you gain. The rest of the spells in the chain are less clear. If the bonuses were meant to scale for size small creatures why would they even put that clause in there since this version of the spell only allows access to the small size?
Further Elemental Body II Says:
"This spell functions as elemental body I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Medium air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the elemental."
Seems to me that the second sentence is meant to apply to the medium form only. I would assume that the progression to EB III continued.
All that said it's NOT obvious at all and if you feel it makes more sense to run it where small creatures get the bonuses then it's likely going to work fine.
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The beast shape spell chain is beautifully clear about this, and that is the method I would apply to all the other shapes.
Elemental one describes the bonuses for small elementals. Elemental body two describes medium forms. Elemental body three... ect ect ect.
Again, look at Beast shape 1 2 3 and 4 for your comparison point.
The beast shape spell chain is beautifully clear about this, and that is the method I would apply to all the other shapes.
Elemental one describes the bonuses for small elementals. Elemental body two describes medium forms. Elemental body three... ect ect ect.
Again, look at Beast shape 1 2 3 and 4 for your comparison point.
Except this doesn't really work:
After all at beast form 1 you could take the form of a wolf -- but you won't get the abilities of a wolf until later beast form spells. That doesn't increase the size of the wolf, but you still get the abilities from the use of the higher level spells. You don't not get those abilities simply because you didn't choose a larger form.
Same with the elemental spells -- just because you can take the form of a medium elemental with 2 doesn't mean you have to -- you can still choose to take the form of a small elemental but you would gain the abilities that the elemental form 2 spell provides.
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For beast shape II/ III/ IV:
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 4
This spell functions as beast shape I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Tiny or Large creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 60 feet, fly 60 feet (good maneuverability), swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, grab, pounce, and trip.
Everything above here is NOT size dependent everything below IS size dependent.
Tiny animal: If the form you take is that of a Tiny animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a –2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Large animal: If the form you take is that of a Large animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus.
This spell chain it's fairly clear that there is a separation between the benefits you gain due to size and other benefits that are not. In short size determines Strength, Dexterity, and Natural Armor while the rest is based on the spell level you cast.
If you cast Beast Shape II your wolf would gain the shape and stat boosts from the medium size listed in Beast Shape I and the scent, low light, and trip from Beast Shape II.
The elemental XXX spells confuse the issue by having all the different elements broken out separately. My feeling on this is that all the stat bonuses (STR, DEX, CON) and the Natural Armor are all based on size but the rest is based on the spell level used. The fact that all the stat boosts are typed "size" bonuses sort of supports that idea for the stats at least.
I'd be willing to be convinced that size only effects the bonuses in the spells that list it explicitly but I am a bit skeptical since they are size bonuses.
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But they have the same separation in the elemental body spells. Look at elemental body three.
In the first paragraph it says "You are also immune to critical hits and sneak attacks while in elemental form."
That's something new that all the forms get. Same as rake or trip or ect, for the forms that have them available.
Then it separates to specifics.
Heck, look at the bonuses for beast shape from size and elemental body 1, 2, 3, 4
Diminutive animal: +6 dex, -4 str, +1 NA
Tiny animal: +4 dex, +2 str, +1 NA
Small animal gets +2 dex, +1 na
Medium: +2 str +2 NA
Large gets +4 str -2 dex +4 NA
Huge gets +6 str -4 Dex +6 NA
Looks like a pretty straight forward pattern for size differences.
Now look at Elemental body, assuming it works based on size.
Air elemental gets:
Small +2 dex +2 NA
Medium +4 Dex +3 NA
Large +2 Str +4 Dex +4 NA
Huge +4 Str +6 Dex +4 NA
Another nicely increasing pattern. And each type has the same pattern. According to the polymorph spells, ability modifiers from size changes are only applied as the spell description tells you to. Other size modifiers are applied normally, but the changes to stats are in the spells themselves. And that's exactly what we're seeing here.
So, to wrap it up, I think this pattern for polymorphic spells is sufficient enough to imply that each higher version of the spells is specific to the new size forms presented in those spells, except where specifically overridden by the text.
The specific wording is open to interpretation, so a clarification is needed from someone *cough*. However, I think that intent has been shown as to which way the particular ruling should go.
Until such time as official clarification suffices, the dm will have to review the arguments and make a decision.
Besides, the best ability of the bunch is that perfect flight :P With whirlwind coming in close behind.
Or, alternatively, look at what the spell is supposed to be doing. Transforming you into an elemental of the appropriate type.
A small air elemental has a NA of +3. Medium has +3. Large has +4 and huge has +4. Compare it to the above chart. It's really close :p
My reading of giant form II is that the abilities are granted regardless of size chosen. I base this on the wording of the first sentence "giant form I except that it also allows you to assume the form of any Huge creature..." combined with the wording of the second sentence not qualifying that it is for the Huge form only.
I am not trying to say this is right. It just reads very much like you can take either a Large or Huge form with giant form II and get the same bonuses.
Also, the second sentence lists some things that the caster should have gotten for Large size (the speed increase) had the game not removed modifying the recipient for the size change.
But... I wouldn't be surprised to see this errata-ed out at some point.
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My reading of giant form II is that the abilities are granted regardless of size chosen. I base this on the wording of the first sentence "giant form I except that it also allows you to assume the form of any Huge creature..." combined with the wording of the second sentence not qualifying that it is for the Huge form only.
I am not trying to say this is right. It just reads very much like you can take either a Large or Huge form with giant form II and get the same bonuses.
Also, the second sentence lists some things that the caster should have gotten for Large size (the speed increase) had the game not removed modifying the recipient for the size change.
But... I wouldn't be surprised to see this errata-ed out at some point.
Seeing as Giant Form II is an 8th level spell it wouldn't surprise me if it's different and better.
To me this is crystal clear. You gain the bonuses of GSII regardless of what size giant you polymorph into.
Yes, beast shape and elemental body spells give you specific bonuses based on the size of the creature you polymorph into. Giant Form and Form of the Dragon spells do not distinguish between sizes at higher levels, you just get the bonus stated in the spell description. They are different spells and behave differently.
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To me this is crystal clear. You gain the bonuses of GSII regardless of what size giant you polymorph into.
Yes, beast shape and elemental body spells give you specific bonuses based on the size of the creature you polymorph into. Giant Form and Form of the Dragon spells do not distinguish between sizes at higher levels, you just get the bonus stated in the spell description. They are different spells and behave differently.
To me it is equally crystal clear. Just in the exact opposite direction. Clearly it isn't so clear as either of us think it is.
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My confusion with the Giant Form spells is why Giant Form II has a reduction in the number of resistances and immunities granted compared to Giant Form I
If the creature has immunity or resistance to any elements, you gain resistance 20 to those elements. If the creature has vulnerability to an element, you gain that vulnerability.If the creature has immunity or resistance to one element, you gain that immunity or resistance. If the creature has vulnerability to an element, you gain that vulnerability.
Are there any giants that have immunity or resistance to 2 elements? I'm not finding any in a hurry. Yeah it's confusing but doesn't really seem to affect anything. Maybe when bestiary 2 comes out it will be more significant? I'm leaning towards just giving the character all immunities/ resistances at GF II.
To me it is equally crystal clear. Just in the exact opposite direction. Clearly it isn't so clear as either of us think it is.To me this is crystal clear. You gain the bonuses of GSII regardless of what size giant you polymorph into.
Yes, beast shape and elemental body spells give you specific bonuses based on the size of the creature you polymorph into. Giant Form and Form of the Dragon spells do not distinguish between sizes at higher levels, you just get the bonus stated in the spell description. They are different spells and behave differently.
So your crystal clear is to assume things not said in the spell merely because other similar spells fit a certain pattern.
lolwut?|
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To me it is equally crystal clear. Just in the exact opposite direction. Clearly it isn't so clear as either of us think it is.To me this is crystal clear. You gain the bonuses of GSII regardless of what size giant you polymorph into.
Yes, beast shape and elemental body spells give you specific bonuses based on the size of the creature you polymorph into. Giant Form and Form of the Dragon spells do not distinguish between sizes at higher levels, you just get the bonus stated in the spell description. They are different spells and behave differently.
So your crystal clear is to assume things not said in the spell merely because other similar spells fit a certain pattern.
lolwut?
Wow, guy disagrees in a respectful polite way and you reply with sarcasm. Classy.
As I said above, if the issue were "crystal clear" there wouldn't be threads like this.
To me it is equally crystal clear. Just in the exact opposite direction. Clearly it isn't so clear as either of us think it is.To me this is crystal clear. You gain the bonuses of GSII regardless of what size giant you polymorph into.
Yes, beast shape and elemental body spells give you specific bonuses based on the size of the creature you polymorph into. Giant Form and Form of the Dragon spells do not distinguish between sizes at higher levels, you just get the bonus stated in the spell description. They are different spells and behave differently.
So your crystal clear is to assume things not said in the spell merely because other similar spells fit a certain pattern.
lolwut?Wow, guy disagrees in a respectful polite way and you reply with sarcasm. Classy.
As I said above, if the issue were "crystal clear" there wouldn't be threads like this.
About once a week someone comes here asking if the base attack bonus from their class and prestige class stack. The answer is crystal clear within the rules, but some people are not well versed on the rules.
There are no if/then clauses in that part of the spell. You can become a large giant. Also, you gain +x +y and these other abilities (if that creature has them).
I know it works differently than beast and elemental polymorph spells, but giant and dragon form spells do. I can see where it might provide one with a momentary pause or questioning since it doesn't fit the pattern of other polymorph family spells, but to insert entire extra clauses or rules into a spell because it is dissimilar from another spell seems nuts to me.
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Considering many very experienced GMs don't read it the way you do I will have to disagree with your simplistic assessment that "it's obvious". As an easy example because his opinion is published and often referenced Treantmonk assumes that the spells work based on size.
Personally I think it makes a lot of sense to read it the way you do but I can see it being read either way.
...Considering many very experienced GMs don't read it the way you do I will have to disagree with your simplistic assessment that "it's obvious". As an easy example because his opinion is published and often referenced Treantmonk assumes that the spells work based on size.
Personally I think it makes a lot of sense to read it the way you do but I can see it being read either way.
Again, I can see where confusion arises because the other spells work a different way. I cannot see how, upon reading it closely and interpreting the spells based on the language of that spell only, one can continue to be confused.
In the end you say you understand how it can be interpreted either way. That's fine. I don't see how that's possible, and it's not arrogance or hubris it's just how I see it. I'm not sure why my opinion should count for less because I won't try to patronize.
I think this thread should have originally been titled, "We need a clarification/errata on these pathfinder spells"... :D I can see the perspective of both sides of the field with these spells being a new part of pathfinder...
However, at this point, the original player in question and I have dug in out heels and are waiting for an official standpoint. My searchfu has yielded for naught. I know the staff is pretty busy, but this does warrant a bit of clarification, anyone else agree?
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I think this thread should have originally been titled, "We need a clarification/errata on these pathfinder spells"... :D I can see the perspective of both sides of the field with these spells being a new part of pathfinder...
However, at this point, the original player in question and I have dug in out heels and are waiting for an official standpoint. My searchfu has yielded for naught. I know the staff is pretty busy, but this does warrant a bit of clarification, anyone else agree?
The answer is... roll for it. Whoever wins the roll off gets to decide. Ultimately keep in mind it's an 8th level spell and should be capable of some pretty awesome stuff. Alternately make a compromise. In the long run it's not going to kill your game either way.