More Specifically, are they NPC classed or Hero classed? And what would be the best way to switch between the two?
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Followers are 'generally low-level NPCs'. I'd go with just NPC classed. Heroic class are for, well, the heros. Cohorts, 'named' enemies (yes I know everything has a name, I mean the boss or subboss as opposed to generic thug). As for switching between the two, um... you can't? It's up to the DM in the end. :)
To give sort of a fluff explanation for the followers granted by Leadership you have to return to previous editions. This feat used to simply be a class feature of most classes. Your basic fighter, once he reached 7th level or so, started simply accruing people because he was awesome. The player's handbook mentioned that most of the followers were baggage carriers, armorers and weaponsmiths and other hangers-on. You got a fist full of actual warriors attracted to your renown, but most were what 3.x would call "NPC classes" (experts, commoners and warriors). Since the vast majority of your followers are level 1 and level 2 characters, even if they were given "hero" class levels, they would be pretty useless in a proper fight. Your cohort is there to fight with you. Your followers maintain the town you should be running because you clean out the countryside from wandering horrors.
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There's no definite answer set in stone, because Leadership is such a potential complication for a game that the fine details really need to be left up to the player and GM to work out between themselves. There's nothing wrong with a bunch of level 1 fighters, rogues or clerics in one campaign and having level 1 adepts, warriors, and experts in another.
It just depends on what's best for the game, what suits the power expectations of the campaign most along with what you expect your followers to be doing(coming along on adventures, staying at "home base" and providing stability to the area, working on side-projects for the PC, etc).
Yar!
The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for it's level (see chapter 14). A cohort can be of any race or class. ... Followers are similar to cohorts, except they're generally low level NPCs.
There you have it; low level NPCs. I'd make followers from the NPC classes. It also refers you to chapter 14: Creating NPCs. This is, for me, the most important thing to remember to keep this feat balanced... which is what most people often ignore (I find): To build your cohort and followers using the rules in chapter 14. The Leadership feat becomes broken when they are created the same way a PCs.
If your PCs stats are build using either the Standard, Classic, Heroic, Dice Pool, or Purchase methods (above 15 points), I see no issues with making your cohort with the heroic NPC stats and regular classes, and followers with the basic NPC stats and PC classes. And their gears should be purchased referencing table '14-9: NPC Gear' on page 454, NOT table '12-4: Wealth by character level' for PCs on page 399. If your PCs were made using purchase of 15 points or less, then you may want to use basic NPC stats for both cohorts and followers to keep their power level appropriate. (You’ll note that the basic NPC stats can be achieved by 3 point purchase, and heroic NPC stats are 15 point purchase).
This is just the way I read the rules. I've been in groups were cohorts and followers were made as extra PCs (4d6 drop lowest for stats and wealth/equipment as a PC), and the feat was quickly banned. I'm running a campaign now where I strictly follow the NPC creation guidelines in chapter 14 for stats and wealth, and the feat is just fine. If the character has a home base, followers generally stay there, or they are treated as the followers of King Arthur in Monty Pythons search for the Holy Grail: completely unseen in the background until the one moment where they are needed (for the holy hand grenade), and then they fade into the background again.
So yeah, my vote is for followers being NPC classed, and cohorts being heroic classed but with NPC stats and wealth.
~P
Depends on how you do it. If you do it RIGHT?
Maids.
All of them are maids.
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I am currently playing in a game where I have picked up leadership of a thieves guild. Beyond the occasional "Tough" picking up levels in warrior my GM has allowed me to have 1st level rogues for followers. Personally I don't have that much of problem when running game if a player wishes to use "Hero" classes. Especially when dealing with NPCs from about 3rd-6th level, those guys should have character and a good chance at surviving.
Here is an example of what I gave to my GM for a NPC in my guild, I think fully stating these NPCs is to too much of an exercise in bookkeeping for the player and GM.
John CroninJohn is a cleric with no particular god; he has entered the priesthood of more than one church in Ptolus. Each time he’s been initiated into deeper mysteries of the religion he has become disillusioned with the faith. His first faith was Lothian, then Olam, then the 53 god of chance and now nothing. He’s now joined the Longfingers in a bout of “doing something useful with his life”. He sees that the organisation is changing and want to give it a loose moral code.
Relevant to GM info:
2nd level Human Cleric
Domains- Trickery and Community
Neutral alignment – Channels Positive Energy
Common Spells Memorised – Bless, Obscuring Mist, Remove Fear
Feats – Selective Channelling
The "maids" and Longfingers me laugh.
At my table, the leadership barbarian has his little wilderness stronghold with the lv1-5 warriors/experts for different kinds of support, and hero class reserved for the cohort. Except for a few (4) of the highest level followers, who have hero classes (cleric, sorcerer, ranger, bard) with fluff and background justification and a high level, charismatic barbarian.
Thank you all for the information. I am the DM of th group, and the parties barbarian has the leadership feat. We built his cohort to have heroic levels but we used the pre-genned ability scores as per creating the Heroic NPC, and we bought his equipment the same way. We also built him to have his own leadership feat.
The cohort runs a small fledgling thieves guild that the barbarian allows him to run, meanwhile the barbarian player only usually calls on followers when he needs a small force for something, and then usually lets them go, much like Conan does in REH stories.
I asked the question though, because during last weeks session he needed to get a follower quick to aid him on a suicide mission, and with his leadership score we grabbed the highest level follower, which was level 4. Well, he said he wanted soemone tough, so I on the fly made a half-orc named Grul, who was basically a homless thug.
So during the scene the players brought Grul into a 'store' and bought him some food and some armor and weapons, and Grul was happy, and went on about 'Grul no PAY!' to everyone, and it seemed to become his war cry.
And as NPC's go, the player's became attached to Grul, and miraculously, though he was on the front lines as a Warrior 4, he survived the 12th level series of final encounters.
So the players have adopted him, so what I might do then is take the character as a Warrior 4, and then at some point detach him from the Leadership feat, and give him barbarian 1 or something, and make him a roady or groupie to the pc's.
And i think it will work, because when my daughter plays with us (she has a Sorcerer 1 who is almost level 2, but bed time always seems to get in the way of adventuring) I always throw some kobold or goblin toilet paper changers or something in there for her to fight, so I bet grul could help her with that!
I would suggest the players should mainly use the followers for one of the following:
Manufacturing/Merchant base -- Low level adepts and experts can help keep the players stocked with low level potions and magical gear. Helps the DM explain where some of those magical potions are coming from without having to have a magical shop. Some of the proceeds are of course sold to support the followers and their activities. Autocrats and nobles can even help here with tax levies... in fact the noble follower might be the parties benefactor -- after all he's giving them stuff, including gear, information, and assistance... presumably because he believes in them and what they are doing.
Information base -- the people they ask for various information on things, who different nobles are, what the mayor is up to, when the next shipment of "x" might come, a good place to stop in the next town over etc. All these are things a autocrat follower might know, or an expert (barkeep), or part of the above manufacturing base could help with.
General low key offensive/defensive work -- House/body guards, raiders, and some of the 4~6th level followers can actually be "shock troops". Now granted these folks won't be taking on balors, but for large battles with a lot of low level people (which are supposed to be most the world... Galorian has a general NPC level limit of 9 for the most powerful regular people) it makes sense to have these people in these duties. Yes many might die but as long as it's in the "normal" course for their activities it shouldn't be a huge deal... only when the players decide to throw their army of level 1 goons at the Balor directly and on purpose should it be a huge issue.
For the most part I generally use whatever class makes the most sense for that follower. If the party wants some musicians as part of it's level 1 slot I'll give a bard or two and several experts that are musicians. If they want some spell casters I'll give a couple of adepts and possibly an apprentice wizard or sorcerer (level 1). How much I put into the followers (as a DM) depends on how much the players bring them out and interact with them. If the players are simply "This is my merc army of followers" or "This is my school of mages I'm training" etc, I don't put too much into it, however if they want to help name the teachers for their school (aka the higher level mages) and what not I'll put more time into them and assign more to them with the expectation that they are a hook for that player. If the player doesn't treat them like the hook they are then they'll fall more by the way side again.
Grul is cool, change him to barbarian or fighter/rogue =).
More Specifically, are they NPC classed or Hero classed? And what would be the best way to switch between the two?
I can tell you that 3.0 was worded as "followers can be warriors, experts, or commoners," and 3.5 removed that wording. As far as I know, Pathfinder hasn't added any specific restrictions.
Some believe the change (3.0 to 3.5) was done to allow Hero classes, but your millage can vary greatly depending on who you ask.
As for switching classes, just do it. If the abilities shift too far, such as a warrior becoming a sorcerer (unlikely, I know - but bear with me), add the changes gradually and play up the character picking up tips and lessons from player characters. This works very well if there are characters of the same class in the group.
Keep in mind, even if they are PC classes, followers are still just level 1-2 until higher levels where it doesn't really matter too much.
Ergo?
Maids.
Save it for Conan RPG, fella.
...
Because you get way more followers there anyway.
Well, to go more in depth, I mean more of a full entourage. Cooks, cleaners, maids, butlers, squires (even if you aren't a knight, you're hardly going to dirty your own hands with things), etc, etc.
If you're going to be high level, you aught to both live and travel in style. Otherwise, what's the point?
I wholeheartedly agree. And add the troubadour of course.
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Grul is cool, change him to barbarian or fighter/rogue =).
In the game I DMed for three years, we had a Grul; although he was called Gruurk. He was actually a half-orc slave they bought because the liberal elven monk wanted to buy some non-evil slaves and free them. He actually had a Barbarian level, and the party were very fond of him and his simple mannerisms. Sadly, Gruurk died in a single critical hit by an Ogre Barbarian.
I think the party actually mourned his loss more than PC deaths...
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Maids is the best suggestion ever. But knowing my group, we'd just descend into playing Maid RPG instead of actually going out adventuring...
I have a druid character for an upcoming Kingmaker game that I intend to take Leadership with. The plan is to awaken my tiger animal companion and make her my cohort. And my followers will be all kinds of smaller animals, deer, elk, wolves, birds, mice, rabbits, anything that's in the forest. They'll be my ears and eyes to make sure there's no border threats, logging, poaching, illegal expansion into or out of the territory, keeping an eye on allied monsters and other countries... because how many people will take notice of a sparrow sitting on your window or a cat walking through a town?
Maids... oh, I love getting ideas from messageboards.
In seriousness, I think as others have alluded to, it's about creating what is the most appropriate for the person who took the leadership feat. The description of the feat simply mentions that followers are "lower level NPCs" and the rules for creating NPCs includes creating NPCs of all classes, both player classes and NPC classes. I really don't think it matters whether it's PC or NPC classes--followers are so much lower level than the PC who took the feat, it's not really going to matter that much if they have an extra class feature or two.
This was something I entirely elected to do--i.e., it's not in the rules anywhere--I recently gave a player with leadership a 5th level Expert for a follower that was supposed to be 4th level. I figure since as far as I can tell, it's okay to have followers with player classes, to boost the level of the NPC to raise the "CR" so to speak of the follower to the appropriate level. BUT I also did that because it suited the needs of the campaign and the player; largely, it added up to the character having extra skill points which I deemed appropriate.
But as GM, I can do that.
I'll also note that the PC is gathering characters slowly over time; she didn't wake up to have the cohort and her followers all sitting next to her (though that certainly would have been amusing). So as right now the 5th level expert is the ONLY follower following her (along with her cohort) I figure it's okay if I fudged the character level a little.
Generally, the Leadership feat is described somewhat loosely I think exactly so the GM can have that kind of flexibility in designing the player's followers.
Maids...hmmm....
*Feels Deathquaker's not-so-innocent smile burning on the back of head*
I think the arcane archer can have the maids...really, what would I do with maids in-game?
The feat is also great if you are a high level cleric, for instance, who wants to found a temple and "staff" it with loyal followers. The highest level followers become the primary priests of the temple while the lower levels become the workers, guards etc.
Same goes for a PC rogue that wants to be the head of his own thieves guild. All those low level followers become the guilds agents etc.
As long as the player and GM are willing to work together, the feat can add a great deal to the campaign.
Maids is the best suggestion ever. But knowing my group, we'd just descend into playing Maid RPG instead of actually going out adventuring...
Got my copy at GenCon, haven't actually managed to get a game. Shares shelf space with "Macho Women with Guns".
If your group was really descending, skip over Maid and get to BBSW (Big Breasts, Small Waist), a 'variant' of BESM (Big Eyes, Small Mouth).
Back on topic, in most of the campaigns I've been in, the high charisma characters were too egotistical to share the spotlight with "followers", so the leadership feat was rare to find.
Or use the old adept class to make followers...
That way they are somewhat useful and can be around the same level as the pc.
link
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm
I like it b/c it never outshines any other PC!!
Or make them minions
That way they can be semi useful to the players, but would still die very easily.
Travel Agents.
Assign one low level expert, heavily invested in social/info gathering skills, in every region of Golarion. Collect hair samples to make scrying easier. Then teleport where ever you need to go and have a loyal, local guide already there.
Also called a spy network. But only by jealous competitors.
I usually just knock a level off of followers when they get PC classes (but still NPC stats). So if you've got a 4th level follower, that could be a 4th level warrior or a 3rd level fighter.
Note: followers don't get xp, so grul wouldn't level normally. I always find it reasonable to "level" followers when your level cap goes up though. And if you felt like "switching", you could convert warrior levels to fighter when that happens. You could even do it gradually as the player gets close to a 5th level follower.
A tangent and collaboration with what Majuba posted:
If the players get attached to one of the followers (like Grul) I usually have that specific NPC go up in levels has they get higher level followers and change them to regular hero classes if they didn't have them already.
For example Grul is currently 4th level right? So when the person that has him as a follower gets access to a 5th level follower I just say Grul gained a level and make him the fifth level follower, in addition to switching him over to a heroic class. Gives him more of a chance to live and be a hook for later use.
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A tangent and collaboration with what Majuba posted:
If the players get attached to one of the followers (like Grul) I usually have that specific NPC go up in levels has they get higher level followers and change them to regular hero classes if they didn't have them already.
For example Grul is currently 4th level right? So when the person that has him as a follower gets access to a 5th level follower I just say Grul gained a level and make him the fifth level follower, in addition to switching him over to a heroic class. Gives him more of a chance to live and be a hook for later use.
This is how it's been going for the fighter's followers in our Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign. They were all given simple backgrounds nad personalities, and the PC's have gotten so attatched to them that they are extremely hesitant to place them in any situation that could get any of them killed. The fighter has meticulously managed who is doing what in his company as well as who is getting promoted when a slot opens up for one of them to level up.
I also allow players to spend their character's own wealth on equipping their followers. Generally it helps insure more loyalty and helps the followers keep up with the "elite guards" and what not you see in various places in games with more equipment than might be standard. Generally for follower equipment I'll give a slight edge back in character wealth (generally about 1/3~1/2 of what was spent on the followers) to keep the player from getting too far behind the others.
The basic idea is to give your players basically the type of people they want so long as it fits their character. They've taken the feat so don't make it too hard for them to use it... but at the same time it doesn't have to be easy either.
I'd go with PC class levels, since often followers can represent disciples or apprentices of a PC.
Still - is there ANY official ruling later than 3.0 anywhere in 3.5 or better in some Pathfinder source?
In my campaign, I have a player (cleric) that took leadership. I ruled that roughly 1 in 6 of his followers could have a PC class. The nice thing is that if we have too many people miss the session, the players that do show up just use the statted up followers to run a low-level side adventure. Works for us.
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While there are no rules for it, I'm a fan of allowing NPC classes to 'upgrade' to PC classes with some sort of unusual event. The Adept 3 finally finds the grace of Gozreh and becomes a Druid 3 or whatever, trading her Adept levels for Druid (or Cleric) levels.
In the case of someone like Grul, if he was to become a 'secondary cohort' someday, or be played by the daughter, he could trade in his warrior levels for Fighter levels or something, perhaps having to spend the difference between the fast and slow advancement tracks to do so, or only being able to convert one old level with each new level gained (so that when he gains enough exp to become a Warrior 4/Fighter 1, he can also swap a level out and become a War 3/Ftr 2), or whatever pace of transition I'm comfortable with.
But, otherwise, NPC classes all the way for non-Cohorts.
Was the book you are referencing published SEVEN years ago when this thread was active?