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SO I was thinking of making a Dwarf Slayer much like Warhammer. I thought I would go half barbarian/fighter. As I looked into the barbarian rage powers I asked myself are they really this weak? all they seem to be is flavor. Hp and Rage the only thing making barbarians worthwhile. why not just make a fighter since the rage powers are pretty much feats and magic items.
It's definitely not you. The company announced plans for new powers in the upcoming book (waiting patiently for that myself), and there are several threads around discussing exactly this - check further down and in the Archives for more info/ideas.
General and Suggestions/House Rules will be your friend here.
{i'd say search, but I've never tried it much myself - for a guess I'd say start with "rage powers" and refine from there}
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Yeah, the Rage Powers seem to be close to feats but less so... Honestly I would only go into Barbarian for 2 levels for the rage and a secondary bite attack while raging. Any more and you're wasting your time. The way I figure it, by that time you have 6+con modifier rounds of raging per day, so we'll say 8. With extra rage, that goes to 14 rounds per day. In my group, combats only ever last maybe 3 rounds, and they can go up to 5 if it's a particularly tough enemy. If we haven't killed it by that point, we probably started running. My main point is that you don't really need any more levels of barbarian to get more rounds per day of rage, and you definitely don't need the rage powers... Hell, the bonuses from rage don't even go up until level 11.
Some of them are not bad, but there just aren't many powers in total, and some of the good ones can't be selected until you're level 8 or 12 or whatever. So at some points in your career you'll be facing slim pickings. At least until the Advanced Player's Guide comes out (hope, hope).
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But this doesn't bug me at all. They should be weak considering how strong the class is.
The only things, in my experience, that are as strong as the Barbarian are a Druid built for Animal Summoning and a high level wizard (or higher-level Sorcerer).
And at low, and even at early mid-levels, the Barbarian is the strongest class by far.
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I've found myself underwhelmed by looking at the class as a whole (when compared to the boosts the other classes got), but due to Ray's claims I think I will build one to satisfy my curiosity.
EDIT: Now I remember my big problem with Barbarians... The low AC they suffer from, especially when raging.
But this doesn't bug me at all. They should be weak considering how strong the class is.
The only things, in my experience, that are as strong as the Barbarian are a Druid built for Animal Summoning and a high level wizard (or higher-level Sorcerer).
And at low, and even at early mid-levels, the Barbarian is the strongest class by far.
lolwut?
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lolwut?
= (LoL. What?)
???Um, with the extra HP (regular & more while raging) and the uncanny dodge, and with plenty of Feats especially now that everyone gets them at odd levels, the Barbarians in my game are always tougher than the Fighters and Rangers. Folks may get 1 level of Ranger for skills and favored enemy, but with extra movement and improved STR while in rage, the Barbarians are considerably stronger in my games.
The only thing about my game that may skew my groups' results may be that we don't typically have more than one fight per session -- always a real tough one -- thus my Players have learned to go full tilt during all fights (casters don't reserve spells for later, Barbarians don't worry about using all the Rages/day, etc). They don't have to pace themselves.
But even with this I think Barbarians are better than all the other combat classes and better than all classes at low levels.
lolwut?= (LoL. What?)
???Um, with the extra HP (regular & more while raging) and the uncanny dodge, and with plenty of Feats especially now that everyone gets them at odd levels, the Barbarians in my game are always tougher than the Fighters and Rangers. Folks may get 1 level of Ranger for skills and favored enemy, but with extra movement and improved STR while in rage, the Barbarians are considerably stronger in my games.
The only thing about my game that may skew my groups' results may be that we don't typically have more than one fight per session -- always a real tough one -- thus my Players have learned to go full tilt during all fights (casters don't reserve spells for later, Barbarians don't worry about using all the Rages/day, etc). They don't have to pace themselves.
But even with this I think Barbarians are better than all the other combat classes and better than all classes at low levels.
Hahahaha, that's a good joke man, thanks.
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The Barbarian STR/CON bonus has nothing on the truckload of feats that Fighter has. See the DPR olympic thread.
And having more HP isn't much of a deal as well - after a round or two of full attacks from Something Nasty both classes need healing anyway. Fighters compensate that with far higher AC - it stops iterative attacks, so it soaks damage even better than Barbarian's mountain of HP.
So yeah, bring on better rage powers in APG.
lolwut?= (LoL. What?)
???Um, with the extra HP (regular & more while raging) and the uncanny dodge, and with plenty of Feats especially now that everyone gets them at odd levels, the Barbarians in my game are always tougher than the Fighters and Rangers. Folks may get 1 level of Ranger for skills and favored enemy, but with extra movement and improved STR while in rage, the Barbarians are considerably stronger in my games.
The only thing about my game that may skew my groups' results may be that we don't typically have more than one fight per session -- always a real tough one -- thus my Players have learned to go full tilt during all fights (casters don't reserve spells for later, Barbarians don't worry about using all the Rages/day, etc). They don't have to pace themselves.
But even with this I think Barbarians are better than all the other combat classes and better than all classes at low levels.
lolwut? is a response to something said that is so absurd that one cannot fathom it having been said.
It is to laugh.
Extra HP that does very little other than make you die easier. You get to -1, fall unconscious, immediately fall to -con and die. Not fun. Also, the extra HP don't make up for the loss of AC while raging, and you only get fast movement while in light or medium armor, which is a further -3 off your maximum AC.
So at level 1 a barbarian rages and gets +4 str which is +2 hit and +3 damage with a 2Hander. Not bad, and I'll admit that this outstrips a fighter at level one, but a fighter quickly catches up. Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training match those numbers. With only his selected weapon, but all day every day. Rage isnt' bad...but you get it at level 1, so anyone else can easily dip one level in barbarian and get just about everything they want.
Here's what I can concede: at levels 1-3 barbarian is better at doing melee damage in combat than other character classes. Fighter is going to be stronger at defense, even in a similar 2H build. At level 5 the fighter pulls ahead and never looks back, and the new Paladin smokes them both if they're fighting evil outsiders, dragons, or undead.
Well by making a dwarven barbarian you are going against what most would consider min/max correctness (ignore them, have fun) for two reasons: You will be faster, but only against dwarves, gnomes and halflings PCs. Armor doesn't encumber a dwarf's movement, but a barbarian is restricted to medium armor.
Min/max'ing aside, you want a dwarf barbarian for the theme, ignore armor class somewhat until later levels when you can afford magic or mithril, concentrate on your health and damage output. Potential for starting with a 20 CON which increases to 24 when raging... 26 at 11th assuming you don't have a CON booster by then, you should... on top of DR.
Dwarven barbarian is going to make other players happy your taking the hits and sad they don't even have HALF of what you have(after you get hit), your cleric could potential be grumpy too, lol.
My Suggestions... (spoiler for shortening, no spoilers conatined)
Rage Powers: (I've seen these in action.)
Feats:(Depends on your focus.)
Magic Items: (Once you have the money.)
+1 bonus - Charging (Not Core, Magic Item Compendium)
+1 bonus - Berserking (Not Core, Magic Item Compendium)
OR
Just my thoughts. I've seen a Pathfinder barbarian (up to 14th, CotCT) in action for the past 2 years, the player and our group enjoyed him emmensely. He also had Scent & Raging Leaper Rage Powers.
For those who can't get past the low AC problem, I've had great success with a barbarian using a heavy shield as a weapon with the shield bashing feats. Add Improved and Greater Bull Rush at the higher levels.
For those who can't get past the low AC problem, I've had great success with a barbarian using a heavy shield as a weapon with the shield bashing feats. Add Improved and Greater Bull Rush at the higher levels.
That's really good stuff. BUT you cut the barbarian damage in half by doing this. (almost)
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any barbarian players in our group have always shown interest in the Whirling Frenzy rage variant in Unearthed Arcana 3.5. It was +4 str, +2 AC, +2 Reflex saves, and an extra attack with a full attack with all attacks being at -2. The reason it appeals to me is because you don't insta-die when you fall unconscious because this gives you no false promises of HP. Because honestly, the extra HP from rage is an illusion unless you have Diehard.
My barbarian player was charged in melee combat, and he used his unexpected strike, scored a critical hit, and dealt massive damage. the npc failed his fort save and croaked.
one hit.
so not all of the powers are bad.
The one the pc just took, i forget the name but it grants him a dodge bonus while raging. I recall he got a +3 dodge bonus from the power, however with the -2 AC rage penalty, he netted a +1 dodge bonus, which he and I both scoffed at, however, throughout the encounter the BBEG consistantly kept missing by 1 point, so sometimes....
i too do feel that many of the rage powers are under powered, i think many people here feel they are fine as is and give some examples of barbarian builds to make there point but i personally think if you need to point out optimized feat choices and weapon choices then your point is a little weak.
some of the rage powers are nice i personally like renewed vigor but i think some are worth less than a feat like many of the senses powers that give you scent or low light vision or even the raging climber or swimmer.
i am not trying to attack any one here just give my opinion.
... but i personally think if you need to point out optimized feat choices and weapon choices then your point is a little weak....
All of the builds of any of the classes offered above have specific builds, so your point is somewhat moot.
To me, the Barbarian is a role playing choice, vice just being an optimized combat monster. The skills and other options you get with the class make it much more fun (for me) to play than straight fighter. Plus, I get to toss out Conan quotes all night :)
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lolwut? is a response to something said that is so absurd that one cannot fathom it having been said.
Wow, ouch.
Thank goodness for Mok's post;
it makes me feel a little better:
The only thing about my game that may skew my groups' results may be that we don't typically have more than one fight per session -- always a real tough one -- thus my Players have learned to go full tilt during all fights (casters don't reserve spells for later, Barbarians don't worry about using all the Rages/day, etc). They don't have to pace themselves.
That pretty much explains it. With only one fight rage doesn't even need to be managed, the character likely can rage the entire combat and cool down after the enemy is dead.
The system was built for 4 combats per session, around 20 rounds of combat per session.
It kinda sucks that the way I design my adventures makes Barbarians so much better. I'll have to seriously look at that and see what I can do to balance it out
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Here's what I can concede: at levels 1-3 barbarian is better at doing melee damage in combat than other character classes.... (But) at level 5 the fighter pulls ahead and never looks back
It's really interesting your experience leads you to name level 5 as the cutoff.
I have always agressively posited that level 5 is the point where Wizards "pull ahead and never look back" at Sorcerers.
I have always agressively posited that level 5 is the point where Wizards "pull ahead and never look back" at Sorcerers.
By then they have plenty of slots so they won't run out of spells; they get higher level spells sooner and they get the free Feats every 5 levels. The nifty stuff with Bloodlines is equitable to the "nifty" stuff with specialization.
Funny, because I equate it the other way. Barbarians=sorcerers. Like wizards, Fighters just get so many more options. 11 feats over the course of his career ELEVEN. I think Rage is equivalent to the Bloodline powers. Oh once per day you can hulk out and kick a little more butt, but really your friend over here is doing it all day every day.
Barbarian ends up being a one trick pony. I've never seen someone do anything other than 2Hers with a barbarian, which I can understand because that's the only way to optimize their Str boost to make it conceivably better than fighter specialization. And even then, not much. I can already hear people say "but meatrace, a barbarian is proficient in all the stuff fighter is. he can do all the same neat things." This is correct. A barbarian can wield a sword and a shield, or be an archer, or dual wield kukri" yep, he can. But then he's not using his own class abilities, and is just a fighter without feats. Composite bows are made for a certain strength modifier, and so either the barbarian ONLY uses it when raging or doesn't get the most out of this form of combat. If he uses sword&shield then he doesn't get 1.5x str bonus to damage, and comes even farther behind the fighter specializing in the same weapon. His AC is absolutely horrid when raging, and usually twice as likely to be hit by a level appropriate challenge than a fighter in full plate (who by level 7 moves at full speed thank you very much).
At level 5 a barbarian will have the same things he had at level 1 or 2. Fighter will have weapon training, armor training, and 4 more feats. I just honestly don't see where you see the power. Not to say Barbarians are horrible, because they're a far better class in PF. Some rage powers are spectacular, but a whole lot are meh. In 3.5 no one in their right mind ever took more than 2 levels, and now it's merely suboptimal to do so.
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I agree that barbarians are a bit underpowered, but I don't see where you guys think the rage timers are even an issue. My wife has a level 5 barbarian. She's raged every round of every combat (PFS scenarios - 4 combats per day average) and is still able to use 4 or 5 rounds of rage for renewed vigor per day. Yes, she has extra rage, but if she were to create the character from scratch she wouldn't take it because they already have too many rounds of rage.
Don't forget scent! One of the handiest rage powers. You can pinpoint the target, not even the fighter with blind fighting can do that.
WOW, just... WOW... Not even responding to that...
Barbarian is another class where people who haven't played it sit around and figure out all the ways a fighter is better. If you listen to that crowd, the only classes you should ever play are fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric. Once you put pen to paer and actually go ten levels fighting with one, you'll realize how good they can be built. LEt's not forget that rage is basically greater weapon focus and weapon specialization with EVERY SINGLE WEAPON THEY WIELD whereas a fighter must concentrate on pretty much one weapon. so sure if you have a cheese GM who force-feeds you your favorite weapon then fighters surely kick ass, but any DM worth his salt will handle out random treasure and you might not get the exact weapon you wanted.
In no way am I saying fighters suck, I"m simply saying the people criticizing the barbarian tend to go a little overboard.
Barbarian is another class where people who haven't played it sit around and figure out all the ways a fighter is better. If you listen to that crowd, the only classes you should ever play are fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric. Once you put pen to paer and actually go ten levels fighting with one, you'll realize how good they can be built. LEt's not forget that rage is basically greater weapon focus and weapon specialization with EVERY SINGLE WEAPON THEY WIELD whereas a fighter must concentrate on pretty much one weapon. so sure if you have a cheese GM who force-feeds you your favorite weapon then fighters surely kick ass, but any DM worth his salt will handle out random treasure and you might not get the exact weapon you wanted.
In no way am I saying fighters suck, I"m simply saying the people criticizing the barbarian tend to go a little overboard.
I DO play a Barbarian, and I feel underpowered most of the time. I HAVE to be raging EVERY time just to be close to ANY other melee class. That's not fun.
I DO play a Barbarian, and I feel underpowered most of the time. I HAVE to be raging EVERY time just to be close to ANY other melee class. That's not fun.
Dude you're a barbarian you are supposed to be raging. Do you get mad when fighters aren't good at anything when not fighting? Rage and love it or play something else, because for barbs that's the way it's got to be.
my first character in pathfinder was a barbarian half-orc and i consider him to be my best character ever compared to every character i have ever played since i started dnd back in 01', that being said as much fun as he was and how destructive he was most of that came from how lucky i rolled my d20 more than anything.
i had a real hard time trying to pick rage powers, most of the ones i wanted were high level ones and most of the others just felt like a wast.
the low level rage powers felt like flavor more than anything, i think if you have to chose rage powers you should feel more like there are too many ones you want and less like "well i guess this will work for now"
i cant wait for the APG to see what powers the print in there.
Dude you're a barbarian you are supposed to be raging. Do you get mad when fighters aren't good at anything when not fighting? Rage and love it or play something else, because for barbs that's the way it's got to be.
I DO play a Barbarian, and I feel underpowered most of the time. I HAVE to be raging EVERY time just to be close to ANY other melee class. That's not fun.
Likewise, I would have to wonder if a non-raging barbarian is really any worse than a non-smiting paladin or a melee ranger that's not fighting a favored enemy.
Do you get mad when fighters aren't good at anything when not fighting?
Yeah.
Anyways, I'm pretty sure the barb will be getting some seriously tasty stuff in the APG.
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Don't forget scent! One of the handiest rage powers. You can pinpoint the target, not even the fighter with blind fighting can do that.WOW, just... WOW... Not even responding to that...
But you did! lol
Seriously though, if you want to munchkin/power game a class, barbarian isn't likely to do that for you. Not like a fighter can. Especially with the low AC, which equates to "what is the point of the extra hp when it gets wiped away in the first round anyway."
But if you want to add character to your classes, barbarian seems to be able to do it a bit better than fighter, IMO. I like flavor, and in our games, the GM tends to adjust encounters to the group, instead of the group having to adjust to the GM's encounters. This allows us as players to play characters and not classes with min/max stats and feats.
And as far as the scent thing goes, our group is thankful for it. We had an encounter where the BBEG cast Deeper Darkness and we didn't have a counterspell. The Barbarian in the group had scent and was the only one who was able to consistently hit the BBEG. If it wasn't for that ability we would have TPK'd. Flavor, pure flavor. It most likely will not come up again in the next 100 encounters, but for that one, it made a difference.
Barbarian is another class where people who haven't played it sit around and figure out all the ways a fighter is better. If you listen to that crowd, the only classes you should ever play are fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric. Once you put pen to paer and actually go ten levels fighting with one, you'll realize how good they can be built. LEt's not forget that rage is basically greater weapon focus and weapon specialization with EVERY SINGLE WEAPON THEY WIELD whereas a fighter must concentrate on pretty much one weapon. so sure if you have a cheese GM who force-feeds you your favorite weapon then fighters surely kick ass, but any DM worth his salt will handle out random treasure and you might not get the exact weapon you wanted.
In no way am I saying fighters suck, I"m simply saying the people criticizing the barbarian tend to go a little overboard.
I have played a barbarian, and I've seen many friends play barbarians. They wow people at first, then when everyone actually starts getting gear they cry. If you listen to the crowd? Yeah if you listen to people who have 10 years experience playing d20 fantasy games you can learn from them. Nowhere did I say you shouldn't play a barbarian, or ranger, or sorcerer, or paladin, or monk. I've played all those and enjoyed them. Someone decrying how barbarian is the most powerful class EVAR is absolutely laughable however. My experience does not bear this out, and the math certainly doesn't bear this out.
And consider this, a ftr 4/bbn 2 vs. bbn 6. Raging+weapon specialization. I just wish that they had made barbarian even competitive with fighter or paladin, they're still the red headed stepchild of the warrior classes.
I have played a barbarian, and I've seen many friends play barbarians. They wow people at first, then when everyone actually starts getting gear they cry. If you listen to the crowd? Yeah if you listen to people who have 10 years experience playing d20 fantasy games you can learn from them. Nowhere did I say you shouldn't play a barbarian, or ranger, or sorcerer, or paladin, or monk. I've played all those and enjoyed them. Someone decrying how barbarian is the most powerful class EVAR is absolutely laughable however. My experience does not bear this out, and the math certainly doesn't bear this out.And consider this, a ftr 4/bbn 2 vs. bbn 6. Raging+weapon specialization. I just wish that they had made barbarian even competitive with fighter or paladin, they're still the red headed stepchild of the warrior classes.
First off, I wasn't targeting you directly but it is what it is. Look at these boards man, there is a contingent of people who criticize every single class for there supposed weakness vs. the four main classes, those were the people I was referring too. IMHO if you can't build an extremely effective build FOR ANY CLASS in the core rulebook you probably just aren't good at building characters. Yeah there will always be something better, but that's the nature of the beast.
Secondly: Fighter-4/Barb-2 beats Fighter 6 just as well as Barb 6 so that argument is garbage too. Pointing out effective multi-classing doesn't add anything to the debate.
Third: I never said the barb was better than the fighter I simply said he wasn't as weak as people made him out to be.
As for your 10 years of D20 gaming i beat you on that too, but that doesn't really matter now does it.
As for your 10 years of D20 gaming i beat you on that too, but that doesn't really matter now does it.
d20 was published in 2000...unless you were on the design team at wizards in the late 90s I don't think this is possible.
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Barbarians:
Move faster than Fighters;
Cannot be caught Flat-Footed (after level 1);
Cannot be flanked (after level 5, except by rogues 4+ lvls higher);
Get Damage Reduction that cannot be bypassed (fighters require adamantine armor to get the same effect, and that ain't cheap. but barbarians can also wear that same armor, and the DR stacks);
Get all the same weapon proficiencies fighters do, and all but one of the same armor proficiencies;
Get twice the skill points per level that a fighter does;
oh yeah, and they can go into this cool "berserker rage" thing too.
But this doesn't bug me at all. They should be weak considering how strong the class is.
It for tat all other melee classes win out, with the exception of maybe the ranger, but they got other bonuses.
The barbarian should be the most damage dealing class with two handed weapons compared to the fighter. This is no longer true.
Barbarians:
Move faster than Fighters;
Wear any armor above mithral medium armor and they move at the same speed as a fighter. If you wear light armor, you instead require a much higher dex. So this is a balanced factor.
Cannot be caught Flat-Footed (after level 1);
This is good.
Cannot be flanked (after level 5, except by rogues 4+ lvls higher);
True
Get Damage Reduction that cannot be bypassed (fighters require adamantine armor to get the same effect, and that ain't cheap. but barbarians can also wear that same armor, and the DR stacks);
As noted above about armor and movement, but also note that yeah the DR stacks, it isn't the best, plus any epic game that is to come will find that the fighter wins out on DR as well.
Get all the same weapon proficiencies fighters do, and all but one of the same armor proficiencies;
Okay, however I still miss not having to spend a feat to wear mithral full plate with out a problem.
Get twice the skill points per level that a fighter does;
true
oh yeah, and they can go into this cool "berserker rage" thing too.
This is where barbarians get really bit in the ass. The rage and rage powers are below the abilities of the feats and class features the fighter gets. To make matters worse it is a limited time effect that has negatives on time of that once it deactivates... Some of the rage powers are unique and useful, but do not do what is expected of a barbarian, to actually DEAL DAMAGE. Making things even worse is the rage powers are COMPLETELY over the top with action infested abilities, where the fighter's are always active. To top it all off, the barbarian rage is not typed, making it so that as new spells come out, there will probably be more moral bonuses that will not stack with the rage, thus giving other melee classes a further edge over the barbarian.
Barbarians:
Move faster than Fighters;
Cannot be caught Flat-Footed (after level 1);
Cannot be flanked (after level 5, except by rogues 4+ lvls higher);
Get Damage Reduction that cannot be bypassed (fighters require adamantine armor to get the same effect, and that ain't cheap. but barbarians can also wear that same armor, and the DR stacks);
Get all the same weapon proficiencies fighters do, and all but one of the same armor proficiencies;
Get twice the skill points per level that a fighter does;oh yeah, and they can go into this cool "berserker rage" thing too.
DR from barbarian and adamantine armor doesn't stack RAW, though I usually let it. Thing is, barbarians at level 10 have DR 2/-. Dr/- can be bypassed by any magical damage, so its just against physical damage. And by the time you get DR 2/- as a barbarian, things are doing easily 40 damage a hit. 5% decrease in damage from DR in exchange for 10% more damage because of decrease in AC. Not even counting, again, inability to wear heavy armor which is another 3 AC, so really a net 20% more damage taken. Oh, also, while raging they can't use Combat Expertise so that's potentially another 3 AC.
Out of combat they are potentially more useful, if they actually sink a stat into Int and not dump it, which I see all too often.
Again, I'm not saying they're horrible or they don't get cool stuff, I just would never say they're more powerful than a fighter or a paladin.
and the DR stacks
Errrr, What!?!?
This is slightly off-topic, but I think the design of giving barbarians more hp to compensate for lower AC has been misguided all along. As everyone knows, the damage you take w/ lower hp quickly outpaces the (temporary) higher hp.
I wonder if complaints about the barbarian in general would diminish if that mechanic was changed. Maybe give them the best HD (D12?) for overall "most hp class", but the real way you make them "tougher" in combat, even when getting hit all the time, is redo the DR/- mechanic.
One possibility is simply to raise it quicker than it is. Let's face it, DR 5/- doesn't mean anything at 20th level.
A related possibility is to keep the current progression, but increase it temporarily while--you guessed it--raging.
Just a thought.
As for your 10 years of D20 gaming i beat you on that too, but that doesn't really matter now does it.d20 was published in 2000...unless you were on the design team at wizards in the late 90s I don't think this is possible.
LAst I checked D&D was D20 long before they came up with that cool name
LAst I checked D&D was D20 long before they came up with that cool nameAs for your 10 years of D20 gaming i beat you on that too, but that doesn't really matter now does it.d20 was published in 2000...unless you were on the design team at wizards in the late 90s I don't think this is possible.
Incorrect. The d20 system is the OGL system created by WotC which includes such paradigms as skill points, feats, base attack bonus, and fort/ref/wil saves. D&D used d20, as a die, but was not part of the d20 system, which came about when 3.0 came out. That's the system we are using now (updated to Pathfinder standards) and experience with other systems isn't particularly relevant to this discussion. Barbarians in 2nd edition AD&D are nothing like they are in 3.0/3.5/PF.
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My bad about the DR stacking.
However, DR1/- would cost 5000gp for adamantine light armor. DR2/- 10,000gp for medium and DR3/- 15,000gp for heavy. The barbarian gets this for free, and it caps at DR5/- (8 if you invest rage powers in it). Saying "yeah but magic gets through it" doesn't lessen the ability at all, it just reiterates the definition of "damage reduction". It's less damage for each and every hit. I don't care if the level appropriate bad guy is doing 40 damage/hit or not, every single hit that is reduced by DR X/- is like free hp.
Barbarians don't get proficiency in heavy armor for free. Big whoop, blow a feat on it. Pathfinder gives you more feats than 3.5 did, use one on Heavy Armor Proficiency if it's that big a deal to you.
If a barbarian dumps Int, he STILL has more skill points than the fighter (who also dumps Int, duh).
Barbarians won't be taking all that sneak attack damage the fighter would be taking. Hmmm...
The barbarian class is no longer the be-all end-all of damage dealing, but they shouldn't have been in the first place. That's the fighter's job. The barbarian is, well, a barbaric savage. Good at wilderness skills, a fighting class, with a self-buff that puts them on par with fighters. The Pathfinder has more tools in his toolbox than the 3.5 version, and because they aren't all damage-boosters some people think the class is weak. Oooo-kay...??
My bad about the DR stacking.
However, DR1/- would cost 5000gp for adamantine light armor. DR2/- 10,000gp for medium and DR3/- 15,000gp for heavy. The barbarian gets this for free, and it caps at DR5/- (8 if you invest rage powers in it). Saying "yeah but magic gets through it" doesn't lessen the ability at all, it just reiterates the definition of "damage reduction". It's less damage for each and every hit. I don't care if the level appropriate bad guy is doing 40 damage/hit or not, every single hit that is reduced by DR X/- is like free hp.
Barbarians don't get proficiency in heavy armor for free. Big whoop, blow a feat on it. Pathfinder gives you more feats than 3.5 did, use one on Heavy Armor Proficiency if it's that big a deal to you.
If a barbarian dumps Int, he STILL has more skill points than the fighter (who also dumps Int, duh).
Barbarians won't be taking all that sneak attack damage the fighter would be taking. Hmmm...
The barbarian class is no longer the be-all end-all of damage dealing, but they shouldn't have been in the first place. That's the fighter's job. The barbarian is, well, a barbaric savage. Good at wilderness skills, a fighting class, with a self-buff that puts them on par with fighters. The Pathfinder has more tools in his toolbox than the 3.5 version, and because they aren't all damage-boosters some people think the class is weak. Oooo-kay...??
This is where most of your statments just become opinion and personal preference.
Yes, DR/- is nice, but if your barbarian is still being dropped in one round, the difference between -45 hp and -40 hp is pretty inconsequential. You also failed to comment on the fact that his armor is significantly lower, typically by 5 but often much more. I feel it's important not to trivialize Armor Class because one miss at that level range is worth about 20 hits with a piddly 2 taken off. AC is boolean, all or nothing, so having 1 higher AC can often save you 50+ damage in a swing.
If you "blow a feat" to get heavy armor, you are 1)wasting a precious resource which the fighter already far outstrips you on and 2)wearing heavy armor will dump your movement down to 20 whereas a fighter level 7+ in heavy armor is going full 30. There goes your fast movement bonus.
From personal experience I never dump int as a fighter, in fact I usually try to put a 13 in it, or at least make that my goal, so I can get expertise and the feats that leads to (trip, disarm).
And again, the Barbarian is a fine, fun class to play. The sheer amount of emotional knee-jerk reactions to my asstertion that they aren't overpowered makes me doubt the collective sanity of these boards! I feel they are underpowered compared to fighter, but my stance isn't "man no one but a moron would play a barbarian" it's "I wish they had made the barbarian better with Pathfinder and closed the gap with other warriors".
Wanting better rage powers is part of this.
p.s. I have almost never come across monsters that sneak attack and so improved uncanny dodge has nearly never come into play. Obviously YMMV, but I hope that helps to explain why I don't weight that ability so much.
Well for those who think the barbarian rage powers are underwhelming, I posted on the homebrew section a list of some new 35 rage powers and a slight improvement to some of the existing ones.
What the Barbarian has over fighters is utility and battlefield strategy. The barbarian can control the battlefield while a fighter just swings and stabs. Case in point: my Barbarian is a grapple build. With the Rage power, Unexpected Strike, I can immediately grapple any opponent that just moves up to me. Strength Surge can pretty much ensure that any grapple check (Or other combat maneuver) will always land, making disarms, trips, and pins a snap. Terrifying howl can send groups scattering when you're overwhelmed, they even get a self heal. No escape, especially when paired with step up, makes it so nobody can ever leave your threat range.
Tactically the barbarian is a grab bag of awesome. Now I will fully admit, about half of the rage powers are quite underwhelming and only really useful for "flavor" if anything. Raging climber, raging jumper, low light vision, all meh. But the other half of the rage powers are definitely nothing to scoff at.
My friend even showed me a possible build with a barbarian that effectively would almost never fail a saving throw.
If you view a barbarian as nothing more than a hack and slash meatshield, then yes, you're going to be greatly disappointed. That's what the fighter role is for. If you want to focus on controlling certain aspects of the battlefield and be incredibly hard to kill, that's the Barbarian.
p.s. I have almost never come across monsters that sneak attack and so improved uncanny dodge has nearly never come into play. Obviously YMMV, but I hope that helps to explain why I don't weight that ability so much.
Improved uncanny dodge also protects against the flanking to hit bonus. If monsters NEVER flank you, your GM is playing on easymode.
stuff
I'm sorry, you have things backwards. See, fighters get bonus feats, meaning they can take Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple if that's the way you want to go. Since they have so many feats, they don't have to specialize. Combat Reflexes plus Lunge and Improved/Greater Trip for battlefield control. If a barbar wanted to do all these things that would be 10+ levels worth of feats, not 5.
All these cool powers are only once per rage, feats are all the time.