p.s. I have almost never come across monsters that sneak attack and so improved uncanny dodge has nearly never come into play. Obviously YMMV, but I hope that helps to explain why I don't weight that ability so much.Improved uncanny dodge also protects against the flanking to hit bonus. If monsters NEVER flank you, your GM is playing on easymode.
But, remember, that's only +2 to hit. Ok so occasionally a fighter will get outmaneuvered and flanked. He still has, like, 10 higher AC than the barbarian.
It's funny how you're picking and choosing things for your arguments. Fighters still don't get access to any feats that replicate any of the barbarian talents or inherent skills. A barbarian grappler will defeat a fighter grappler majority of the time. Barbarians can lock down an opponent. Add their level to any CMB or CMD check they want. They can even get a free attack when someone moves into their threat range, unreadied. They can keep anyone from LEAVING their threat range. Intimidate a foe during combat as a move action, then panic them as a standard in the same round. A barbarian can get a movement speed of 55 while raging without burning a feat slot. They can become completely immune to shaken, frightened, nauseated, and sickened conditions. They can even bite as part of their attacks! Please point out to me which fighter feats do any of that?
Fighters are ALWAYS going to be better at the slashy stab. That's what they do, and they do it well. But they can't hold a candle to the strategy and utility on the battlefield control of a Barbarian.
The main issue i see is most people can't see past the diceroll numbers and look at the actual utility and possible unique builds and strategies of classes, and instead look at the straight hack potential, of which the fighter is nothing but. If that's what you're looking for, by all means, stick to the fighter.
Funny how you're assuming that every barbarian has every rage power at every level. I'm not picking and choosing anything, you gave examples I gave counterexamples. And again, all those things are ONLY when he is raging and ONLY once. A 2nd level cleric spell (Calm Emotions) can't take away my fighter's feats, but it can stop everything you just mentioned from ever coming into play.
You say the fighter is nothing but "hack potential". Please explain how all the tactical feats I mentioned make him ONLY a hacker. These feats are not unique to a fighter, it's true, but he gets SO FREAKING MANY OF THEM you can build him just as tactically as your barbarian and have plenty left over to make him do more damage than the barbarian as well.
He can have a 55 foot movement while raging without burning a feat? Yeah but that's 3 rage powers he doesn't get. And he can only do that in light armor, which means move all you want you're going to be SPLAT by the first monster you come across. Fighter can use 3 feats (Fleet) and go 45 in adamantine full plate. ALL DAY.
Grappling? Alright sure, once per rage you can be a better grappler than the fighter. You're raging, which will reduce your CMD, on top of improved grapple and greater grapple my fighter will maintain the grapple with a move action and stab you in the face with his standard. In order to get your +2 from the bite, you have to hit (which you probably won't do).
Again, stop assuming weird things about what I've said. Read them in context and attempt to comprehend. Barbarian is now a good class (was pretty awful in 3.5) but even so, if I were trying to min-max I wouldn't take more than 2 levels and yes I would take Animal Fury as my one rage power.
A barbarian grappler will defeat a fighter grappler majority of the time.
Not the majority of the time, only when the barbarian:
-Is raging-Using his once per rage powers
-Has taken the pertinent improved XX and greater XX feats.
The fighter could get get bull rushed for example, once during a single roll, if he is not specialized in the maneuver being attempted on him. If he has the feat chains, he will still have more chances to not get bull rushed from low to high levels even for that only single roll where the barbarian uses all his special powers.
When that single roll is over, a fighter can have a repertoire of maneuvers with decent bonus 3 times larger than the barbarian's at high levels, AND still have leftover feats. That he can use every single time the whole day. As opposed to "for a single dice roll" or "levelx2 + con +2 rounds a day".
Someone also mentioned the DR/- "special" feature of the barbarian but forgot to mention that at very high levels the fighter gets it as well.
And he will have enough feats to do all kinds of maneuvers the barbarian cannot, do better hack'n slash on average AND overcome said barbarian's DR.
And talking about movement, he will be slightly faster than the barbarian while also having an AC several points higher the whole day, and only be 5ft slower in very particular moments when the barbarian is using his special power and also sacrificing even more AC.
Srs passive aggression in this thread. People should take it easy.
I'm not bothered by barbarians the way they are now. From a combat-centric outlook, I agree with the folks who say that fighters probably have more potential. Still, it's a role-playing game. It's about flavor and story as much as anything (at least to some people), and I don't think the gulf between the class power levels is even as large (or significant) as people make it seem. You can make a solid and functional barbarian at any level, and if it fits your playstyle and character concept I don't think it should stop you from playing one in any circumstances. Don't forget choosing a class also means differences in skill selection and the fact that, well, biting your enemies is hilariously cool. Frankly, if my roleplaying group started getting this concerned over numbers I would tell them to rethink why they're playing the game. Maybe my reasons for playing are different, but I think the strengths of the game go far beyond everyone being able to dish out the same dmg (in fact, that sort of environment sucks), and having classes exist with reasonable differences is a good thing.
Yeah I agree with what you said, except that, well, the higher the level of the game got, the more the difference became disturbing. We just discussed about it a few minutes and came to enhamce existing powers and add some more for the sake of variety and fluff as some kind of enjoyable "homework", gathered again, discussed them, put them together and moved on the next hour or so. Ditto with some other classes and powers. Then continued playing and if anything seems "off", it just gets fixed.
Of course you need a group of gamers who can trust each other on changing some rules or adding more options, then being willing to backpedal. So far so good. And the fighter has still more fightning capacity. Which is normal, it's a "fighter", he fights (only). The barbarian has more to it.
Bah, I had a long post typed out and the forums ate it. Here's the condensed version.
I'm amused at how you seem to be taking the discussion personal, meatrace. It's a discussion. Calm down, take a walk or grab a soda or something.
Yes, a second level can take down a barbarian. Except the same can be said for a fighter. Just to name one of the top of my head: Shatter. That can cripple a fighter. Also, depending on the type of build and how he's optimized, a barbarian can have, on top of his normal base saves, from +2 to +6 (without feats, up to +8 with) to his will save to resist calm emotions, along with the capability of rerolling failed will saves twice. A fighter, with feats, can only get a +2 will bonus and reroll once.
Tossing feats in a barbarian's move could be pumped up to 70 while raging in medium armor. Out of rage, 55. All day. The fighter still can't outshine a Barbarian there either.
I don't get where you see a Barbarian's CMD goes down when he rages... as far as i know it goes UP. So a barbarian vs a fighter, the barbarian is going to have on average +2 higher than the fighter on his CMB/CMD from raging (more at higher levels) with an additional +2 if he lands a bite. With an additional +level Strength surge whenever he wants. That Strength surge alone is invaluable. It can guarantee a disarm or trip attempt, or prevent anyone from breaking your grapple.
Regarding grappling, golden pony, you say that the barbarian grappler wouldn't defeat the fighter grappler the majority of the time unless he is:
-Is raging
Not a problem. Barbarians rage all the time. I've yet to encounter situations with my grappling barbarian where I needed to rage while grappling and could not. I can rage during entire combats and have yet been pulled successfully out of rage. Yes, it's possible, but situational.
-Using his once per rage powers
Not really. My barbarian doesn't use once per rage powers for grapples, yet. He does use his bite for a +2 grapple as many times a fight as he wants, no problem, something a fighter cannot do.
-Has taken the pertinent improved XX and greater XX feats.
Well, yes. But I was also assuming the fighter had also taken the same pertinent feats, making this a moot point.
So far the barbarian is still in the lead in this aspect, too. The fact is, the Barbarian CAPABLE (again, depending on his build) of being a better grappler than a fighter NO MATTER the fighter's build. The Barbarian simply has more and better options available to him in this area than a fighter.
The fighter is better at AC and damage. That's what he does. He can't do a large majority of the things a Barbarian is capable of, however. Barbarians are simply better at utility and strategy.
And yes, meatrace, I have read and comprehended your argument. It's simply not valid and the Barbarian is still better at things OTHER than AC and Damage. It's what makes the classes so different. Sorry to disappoint you.
Okay, this when raging=/= or =all the time is situational. Am willing to admit that at my table we go for long encounters one after another without rest and the barbarian rage management calls for a lot of tough decisions that may easily deprive our barbarian of his rage at important moments.
I can even say that the system was intended for some 4ish battles per day, and this the "while raging= whenever it is important" point would apply in any "default" game, which is not my case.
However, the fighter will still be able to perform not only more damage, but also have higher AC and a wider range of maneouvers than the barbarian.
Your barbarian build can be better than the fighter at the grappling. Not at the rest of the maneouvers unless you spend a lot (most)of your ressources (feats) for that and time the rage to make it real good. The fighter can have comparable bonuses (though lower), but still has a lot of ressources to spare in other areas due to his massive amounts of feats.
I would say in the end it's a lot easier for a barbarian player to build a relatively underwhelming build with the considerable amount of moderately useless powers emitting "noise" around (specially if he wants to be more of a fluff hunter jumping, swimming or climbing relentlessly behind their target and sensing them) than for a fighter player.
And yeah, the will saves and skills superiority is the reason why they should be less of a fighter than a fighter.
I have to agree with the majority of your post there, golden pony.
Barbarians can be built to rock the house and melt faces, they can also easily be built as just cannon fodder if you don't know what you're doing. Fighters are a lot easier in this regard; you can't really go wrong with a Fighter. And Fighters will always be better at AC and damage. It's the staple of the class.
But Barbarian builds, when focused properly, can outdo any other aspect of the fighter. The Barbarian can't do ALL of it all the time, but a focused build can outshine a fighter at certain aspects while still being a recognizable force on the battlefield. Their biggest feature, however, is that rage that gives a +2 to his fort, will, CMB/CMD, attack and damage along with a health boost that the fighter can't emulate in any way. When paired in certain ways with certain rage powers or feats, the utility really shines easily where a Fighter has to work at it to get more utility... which does start cutting into his damage potential after a bit.
I wholly agree that about half of the rage powers are very underwhelming. Raging climber and jumper, low light vision, they are more for fluff than actual help, although It's always nice to have the option. A lot of the other rage powers are quite invaluable however. Strength Surge, Clear Mind, additional DR, even ones that can panic your enemies. There's some really nice options in there once you blow off the chaff.
Dude you're a barbarian you are supposed to be raging. Do you get mad when fighters aren't good at anything when not fighting?
Going on a tanget, yes, the very concept of classes that are only good in direct combat should f@#$%^& die in fire.
Rage and love it or play something else, because for barbs that's the way it's got to be.
If I'm forced to be an one-trick pony, my answer is precisely "play something else". Not that other PF melee classes are much better in this department, but at least they aren't shoehorned into exactly one possible build even at low levels.
Again, for a lot more fluff options to specialize your barbarian(iron body, lightning fast barbarian, hunter, witch slayer, brute strength or feral aspect, via a chain build with prerequisites and rewarding high level rage powers) with hopefully balanced mechanics, and removing underwhelming rage powers off the chart by modifying them or splatting some together, I posted a list of some 50 powers on the homebrew forum a couple days ago.
Though a couple make reference to a homebrew frenzied berserker conversion, and another couple have some typos (specially, at unexpected strike, should add "half" before "level"). A majority has been tested in a high level party with a fighter of the same level as a comparison point.
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But, remember, that's only +2 to hit. Ok so occasionally a fighter will get outmaneuvered and flanked. He still has, like, 10 higher AC than the barbarian.p.s. I have almost never come across monsters that sneak attack and so improved uncanny dodge has nearly never come into play. Obviously YMMV, but I hope that helps to explain why I don't weight that ability so much.Improved uncanny dodge also protects against the flanking to hit bonus. If monsters NEVER flank you, your GM is playing on easymode.
This "only" +2 to hit is no big deal, but -2 AC from raging IS a big deal?? 10 higher AC? Exaggerate much? No monsters use sneak attack? Try the Morlock, Faceless Stalker, or anything with Rogue levels.
You dump Int for a barb, but not a fighter, so the barb's greater number of skill points doesn't matter. Maybe you shouldn't dump Int at all?
Pathfinder barbarians get more than 3.5 ed barbarians got, and none of that matters because their AC isn't as high as the fighter's? Go buy some Bracers of Armor or mithril full plate.
Saying my statement are personal opinion and personal preferrence while yours are solid fact? Riiiight. You pick corner cases, weigh some weaknesses much more heavily than multiple strengths, handwave away evidence counter to your arguement and then have the nerve to say MY statements are just my personal preferrence?? LoL, whatever.
Apparantly you want the barbarian to be able to do everything the fighter can, PLUS.
What the Barbarian has over fighters is utility and battlefield strategy. The barbarian can control the battlefield while a fighter just swings and stabs. Case in point: my Barbarian is a grapple build. With the Rage power, Unexpected Strike, I can immediately grapple any opponent that just moves up to me. Strength Surge can pretty much ensure that any grapple check (Or other combat maneuver) will always land, making disarms, trips, and pins a snap. Terrifying howl can send groups scattering when you're overwhelmed, they even get a self heal. No escape, especially when paired with step up, makes it so nobody can ever leave your threat range.
Tactically the barbarian is a grab bag of awesome. Now I will fully admit, about half of the rage powers are quite underwhelming and only really useful for "flavor" if anything. Raging climber, raging jumper, low light vision, all meh. But the other half of the rage powers are definitely nothing to scoff at.
My friend even showed me a possible build with a barbarian that effectively would almost never fail a saving throw.
If you view a barbarian as nothing more than a hack and slash meatshield, then yes, you're going to be greatly disappointed. That's what the fighter role is for. If you want to focus on controlling certain aspects of the battlefield and be incredibly hard to kill, that's the Barbarian.
I'm really sorry mate, but I have to break some of your concepts.
1 - You cannot use Unexpected strike to inst-grab. Grapple is a Standard action.
2 - You seem to think Strength Surge can be used all the time, it can't, it's once per rage.
2.5 - Sure, you grappled the poor fighter, he won't try to get free, he will simply stab you to death with his sword dealing more damage than you and killing you before you do it to him.
3 - Terryfying Howl (while stylish) Won't send any group running unless you spend TWO feats to use Dazzling display. And probably another one just to add your strength to intimidate.
4 - No Escape... seriously? I NEVER seem anyone making withdraw, and even if someone did, you would run behind the guy and say A-HA! And then he would make another withdraw and you would say: "Ooohh b+*&*++s"
Saves bonus from superstition, awesome, really is. I like it a lot, but the truth is, you WILL die with it, a Barbarian that cannot be healed or get buffs (cause he is gonna save) will die faster than anyother class out there.
Sure, barbarians CAN be used for some good tactics, but from a Roleplaying point of view I really cannot imagine a Raging savage doing anything until he at least kills the guy right in front of him.
2.5 - Sure, you grappled the poor fighter, he won't try to get free, he will simply stab you to death with his sword dealing more damage than you and killing you before you do it to him.
(Assuming it's not a two-handed sword, that is.)
2.5 - Sure, you grappled the poor fighter, he won't try to get free, he will simply stab you to death with his sword dealing more damage than you and killing you before you do it to him.(Assuming it's not a two-handed sword, that is.)
of course. The fact is, chances of a fighter using a 2-handed weapon todat are slim at best, the other options are just SO much better.
What the Barbarian has over fighters is utility and battlefield strategy. The barbarian can control the battlefield while a fighter just swings and stabs. Case in point: my Barbarian is a grapple build. With the Rage power, Unexpected Strike, I can immediately grapple any opponent that just moves up to me. Strength Surge can pretty much ensure that any grapple check (Or other combat maneuver) will always land, making disarms, trips, and pins a snap. Terrifying howl can send groups scattering when you're overwhelmed, they even get a self heal. No escape, especially when paired with step up, makes it so nobody can ever leave your threat range.
Tactically the barbarian is a grab bag of awesome. Now I will fully admit, about half of the rage powers are quite underwhelming and only really useful for "flavor" if anything. Raging climber, raging jumper, low light vision, all meh. But the other half of the rage powers are definitely nothing to scoff at.
My friend even showed me a possible build with a barbarian that effectively would almost never fail a saving throw.
If you view a barbarian as nothing more than a hack and slash meatshield, then yes, you're going to be greatly disappointed. That's what the fighter role is for. If you want to focus on controlling certain aspects of the battlefield and be incredibly hard to kill, that's the Barbarian.
I'm really sorry mate, but I have to break some of your concepts.
1 - You cannot use Unexpected strike to inst-grab. Grapple is a Standard action.
2 - You seem to think Strength Surge can be used all the time, it can't, it's once per rage.
2.5 - Sure, you grappled the poor fighter, he won't try to get free, he will simply stab you to death with his sword dealing more damage than you and killing you before you do it to him.3 - Terryfying Howl (while stylish) Won't send any group running unless you spend TWO feats to use Dazzling display. And probably another one just to add your strength to intimidate.
4 - No Escape......
Terryfying Howl and No Escape are amasing abilities in my group. Just because you don't play to get utility out of them doesn't mean other do not. And you don't need to take Dazzling Display, anyone in the party can. Bards and Rogues love the feat, and casters will love them for it. Demoralize is a win-win for the party.
As for the fighter being able to do all these things and more over the barbarian, not if he really wants to keep up his damage. In order to stay up with the Barbarian, he needs to spend his feats to enhance his fighting. This results in him having only half again as many feats as the Barbarian, who gets other abilities that easily make up for it. While I would like to see more rage powers, there are numberous viable builds for different style barbarians that I have seen in action and on these boards. I think this class is less pigeon-holed than many others.
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As for the fighter being able to do all these things and more over the barbarian, not if he really wants to keep up his damage. In order to stay up with the Barbarian, he needs to spend his feats to enhance his fighting. This results in him having only half again as many feats as the Barbarian, who gets other abilities that easily make up for it.
Sorry... no. The fighter has 11 more feats than the barbarian. He can buy every single fighter-only damage increase, plus every single feat needed to match the barbarian for a specific trick, and STILL have more feats than the barbarian even starts with.
I keep hearing this bogus "fighters AC is 10 better than the barb" crap. LAst I checked plate mail is only 3 higher than breastplate so tell me where the +10 is coming from. not to mention at higher lvls AC is far less than most monsters + to hit, so you are going to get popped regardless. Greater rage at 11 effectively gives the barb +3 to trips and disarms without a feat, so if he specializes (hell even simply takes the appropriate Improved Feat) he will indeed be beating the fighter.
I'd much rather have higher hps than AC above around 8th lvl. All this talk about barbs dying outside of rage THAT'S WHAT CLERICS/POTIONS/SCROLLS are for anyway. Let's not forget this is a team game not some one on one power drill. I'd rather have 50 extra hps at lvl 10 that 5 extra points of AC. I seriously doubt I'll be getting knocked out in regular intervals.
Really it comes down to skills. I've never had a problem making an effective character and I don't play with any sucker GM. Our fights are routinely 1 to 2 CRs higher than our group of 4-5 characters. Poor character creation is the problem not class balance.
As for the fighter being able to do all these things and more over the barbarian, not if he really wants to keep up his damage. In order to stay up with the Barbarian, he needs to spend his feats to enhance his fighting. This results in him having only half again as many feats as the Barbarian, who gets other abilities that easily make up for it.Sorry... no. The fighter has 11 more feats than the barbarian. He can buy every single fighter-only damage increase, plus every single feat needed to match the barbarian for a specific trick, and STILL have more feats than the barbarian even starts with.
Perhaps you missed the point where I said he will have half again. that means he will have ~15 feats, 5 more than the barbarian. I then say that those extra 5 feats are not = to what the Barbarian gets, 10 rage powers plus other abilities like uncanny dodge.
5 more than the barbarian.
11 more.
5 more than the barbarian.11 more.
Not once he spends the feats he neets to make up for Barbarian Rage.
This is slightly off-topic, but I think the design of giving barbarians more hp to compensate for lower AC has been misguided all along. As everyone knows, the damage you take w/ lower hp quickly outpaces the (temporary) higher hp.
Yeah, the barbarian basically becomes a cleric-spell leech simply because noone ever misses him.
About the feat equivalence thingy; The barbarian has rage, but the fighter has Weapon Training, which eventually becomes stronger (Damage-wise only) than the rage.
It is not to be forgotten that the barbarian is a hybrid class; it has a big part fighter and a little rogue. His role in the party is more than dealing damage and tanking. He is a dungeon front-liner that can soak a couple of traps. He excels in melee with many opponents with his Uncanny Dodge (And is then immune to sneak attacks from rogues of about his level, which is not the case of a fighter).
And too... it might be only at 17th level, but once your rage does not tire you, you can end your rage and call it back next round and have back your "one-per-rage, but not once per day" abilities like unexpected strikes. (This trick might get too powerful with the "temporary hit points homerule" stated above though)
Barbarians are still the strongest in the party to lift awesome weights blocking the progression of the adventurers, or breaking bars. The fighter gets more damage, the barbarian gets more raw strenght for breaking stuff appart.
Different powers, different roleplay issues, different roles. Two classes who would be adept at doing the same thing in two different manners... that would be a waste (Might as well consider the barbarian like a fighter build as in 2nd Ed.) But it's not the case.
Good point.
Not once he spends the feats he neets to make up for Barbarian Rage.5 more than the barbarian.11 more.
Ahhhh owwkay...
I keep hearing this bogus "fighters AC is 10 better than the barb" crap. LAst I checked plate mail is only 3 higher than breastplate so tell me where the +10 is coming from.
You're missing the Heavy Shield +5.
I thought this thread was about barbarian rage powers.....
though I agree on some points made here, some powers are really just fluffy others if really thought out can give the barbarian some great options that other won't be able to quite FULLY get the most of like a barbarian can and that's cool, shouldn't stop you from playing the class the way you want.
I love barbarians even from 3.5. To see they have gotten even more powerful than they were is great.
I played a dwarven barbarian up to level 15 or so in 3.5 and he was probably the most dangerous character on the battlefield. We had a human cleric, an elven wizard, and a human monk in our group, and my barbarian dealt out (and soaked up) the most damage of the group hands down.
For feats and gear and stuff, if I can remember, all I had was a +1 greatsword, a belt of giant's strength +4, and a ring of protection +1 combined with power attack, cleave, and weapon focus, and I could dish out, on average, 25-30 damage per hit.
I think the powers are cool.
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I keep hearing this bogus "fighters AC is 10 better than the barb" crap. LAst I checked plate mail is only 3 higher than breastplate so tell me where the +10 is coming from.You're missing the Heavy Shield +5.
I'm sorry, is this the part of the thread where we say the barb's AC is horrible compared to the shield wearing fighter, or the part where we say the barb's damage output isn't as good as a two-handed fighter's?
Barbarians are proficient with +5 heavy shields too.
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I'm sorry, is this the part of the thread where we say the barb's AC is horrible compared to the shield wearing fighter, or the part where we say the barb's damage output isn't as good as a two-handed fighter's?
Why does it have to be one or the other? The sad fact is that a sword and shield fighter now does more damage than a two-handed barbarian. The two biggest reasons for this is the change to power attack and the addition of fighter class abilities (though shield bashing feats are nice also).
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I'm just exposing a scorching case of "move-the-goalpost-itis". First it was "-2 AC when raging? I'll DIE!!!". Then it was "So what if they can't be flanked? +2 to hit doesn't mean anything". Suddenly it's "Barbarians are 10 points of AC behind the fighter". It seems the justification for this nonsense is a high level fighter optimized for AC with a near-epic level shield. A shield the barbarian can also use....
The sad fact is that a sword and shield fighter now does more damage than a two-handed barbarian. The two biggest reasons for this is the change to power attack and the addition of fighter class abilities (though shield bashing feats are nice also).I for one would like to see numbers to back this up. I somewhat doubt it to be true.
Compare Weapon Training and Rage. From levels 1-8 Rage is better (notably better at levels 1-4), but after that it's mostly a toss-up. But in addition, the fighter has more feats that he can presumably devote to dealing damage as well (e.g. Weapon Specialisation, for one).
Likewise, I would have to wonder if a non-raging barbarian is really any worse than a non-smiting paladin or a melee ranger that's not fighting a favored enemy.
Yes, they are. Much worse. Both of those classes have spellcasting. Rangers have animal companions, bonus feats that they don't have to qualify for, and out-of-combat utility, and better saves. Paladins have either an animal companion or a choose-your-own-weapon, all kinds of nifty auras and powers, and much better saves.
Barbarians that don't rage have trap sense (whee...), uncanny dodge, and a little DR at the higher levels.
Yes, they are. Much worse. Both of those classes have spellcasting. Rangers have animal companions, bonus feats that they don't have to qualify for, and out-of-combat utility, and better saves. Paladins have either an animal companion or a choose-your-own-weapon, all kinds of nifty auras and powers, and much better saves.
Likewise, I would have to wonder if a non-raging barbarian is really any worse than a non-smiting paladin or a melee ranger that's not fighting a favored enemy.
I was speaking in the context of just doing damage in melee, in which case most of what you mention would be of secondary importance. I certainly agree that barbarians get the shaft when it comes to non-rage class features. But I still think that a raging barbarian hits harder than a non-smiting paladin (leaving aside the possibility of the barbarian failing some important save, e.g.).
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I just cannot see how the S&B fighter is going to out-damage the Barb.
Presumably using TWF, Double Slice, and Improved Shield Bash (or something like that).
Compare Weapon Training and Rage. From levels 1-8 Rage is better (notably better at levels 1-4), but after that it's mostly a toss-up. But in addition, the fighter has more feats that he can presumably devote to dealing damage as well (e.g. Weapon Specialisation, for one).The sad fact is that a sword and shield fighter now does more damage than a two-handed barbarian. The two biggest reasons for this is the change to power attack and the addition of fighter class abilities (though shield bashing feats are nice also).I for one would like to see numbers to back this up. I somewhat doubt it to be true.
With a +6 str item and 18 base str:
a 2H Barbarian does 8.5 more damage than a Longsword wielding fighter, with 2 less to hit. 6 of this is from power attack, Rage equals damage on weapon training, they get 2 more from a +6 enhancement str item, and do 2.5 more average damage. This is including the feats that the fighter can take to increase his hit and damage.
I for one would like to see numbers to back this up. I somewhat doubt it to be true.Why does it have to be one or the other? The sad fact is that a sword and shield fighter now does more damage than a two-handed barbarian. The two biggest reasons for this is the change to power attack and the addition of fighter class abilities (though shield bashing feats are nice also).I'm sorry, is this the part of the thread where we say the barb's AC is horrible compared to the shield wearing fighter, or the part where we say the barb's damage output isn't as good as a two-handed fighter's?
DPR Olympics.
DPR Olympics.I for one would like to see numbers to back this up. I somewhat doubt it to be true.Why does it have to be one or the other? The sad fact is that a sword and shield fighter now does more damage than a two-handed barbarian. The two biggest reasons for this is the change to power attack and the addition of fighter class abilities (though shield bashing feats are nice also).I'm sorry, is this the part of the thread where we say the barb's AC is horrible compared to the shield wearing fighter, or the part where we say the barb's damage output isn't as good as a two-handed fighter's?
The builds I saw in the DPR Olympics had the sword and board fighters losing to the 2H barbarians. I haven't looked through the whole thread though. Perhaps you can point to a build where this is true.
DPR Olympics state that the barbarian deals more damage two handed than the sword and board fighter. But we can clearly see why. 10th level. When the fighter gets his 2 extra attacks next level it's all gone for the poor barbarian, even his damage.
About the feat equivalence thingy; The barbarian has rage, but the fighter has Weapon Training, which eventually becomes stronger (Damage-wise only) than the rage.
Just a quick heads up, but not exactly true.
The weapon training's to hit bonus (as well as wpn focus, wpn enchantments, etc) all factor into various maneuver checks - there's fine print in the chapter/section about it, but it's all still there and present.
So, fighter w/his best wpn and full training is getting a +6 on his checks vs. the barbarian. If he wants to go "unarmed" as back-up, figure another +2 and the +3 from wpn training, so in a grapple he'd be like +5 vs. the +4 to str the barbarian gets minus the 1/rage rage power thing (looking at lv 20's for comparison), but by then the barb can rage/end rage; rage/end rage - which is, IMO, the LAMEST PF loophole of all things to be revised from 3.x to PF.
:shrugs:
In any case, at the upper level, the barbarian (with a single rage power) will out maneuver the HELL out of a fighter from level 17 on using lame rules exploits. I'm pretty sure the designers didn't intend that kind of tactic ... I could be wrong, though. {Please let me be right!!!}
It was originally designed for the Beta's Rage Points, and under that system EVERY critique brought against the barbarian will INSTANTLY disappear - instantly! The loophole of the rage/on, rage/off goes away, limited use/rage goes away - all of it! *poof*
The new thing is that the barbarian becomes a close resource management class keeping track of his rage points (not rounds of rage). He can go all NOVA like a mage if he wanted ... and he'll be like a kitten afterwards (until level 17 where he just has no more bang for the buck).
Honestly, to leave the class alone and help it - just go right back to the Beta and Rage Points vs. "round of rage" nonsense.
Yes, but THF has a built in 50% dmg modifier over S&B.
No, it doesn't. Two-handed weapons get 150% Strength. Main-hand weapons get 100% Strength + Off-hand weapons get 50% Strength = 150% Strength.
That works with Power Attack as well.
Again, it doesn't.
And if the thought is the TWF S&B fighter is doing more damage, consider the adjustment that lower to-hit bonuses make to overall damage.
I just cannot see how the S&B fighter is going to out-damage the Barb.
Actually, there aren't any to-hit penalties for a sword-and-board TWF at level 11 or higher, because of Shield Master. The Fighter also has Weapon Training, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater/Weapon Specialization, plus Greater/Penetrating Strike, to even the damage curve.
Yes, but THF has a built in 50% dmg modifier over S&B.No, it doesn't. Two-handed weapons get 150% Strength. Main-hand weapons get 100% Strength + Off-hand weapons get 50% Strength = 150% Strength.
That works with Power Attack as well.Again, it doesn't.
Actually, there aren't any to-hit penalties for a sword-and-board TWF at level 11 or higher, because of Shield Master. The Fighter also has Weapon Training, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater/Weapon Specialization, plus Greater/Penetrating Strike, to even the damage curve.And if the thought is the TWF S&B fighter is doing more damage, consider the adjustment that lower to-hit bonuses make to overall damage.
I just cannot see how the S&B fighter is going to out-damage the Barb.
Thank you.
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Actually, there aren't any to-hit penalties for a sword-and-board TWF at level 11 or higher, because of Shield Master. The Fighter also has Weapon Training, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater/Weapon Specialization, plus Greater/Penetrating Strike, to even the damage curve.
I thought the Shield Mastery feat only negated to hit penalties for the shield, main-hand weapons still take a -2 or -4 penalty.