I've always disliked how...gimped...tumbling has become in Pathfinder. My players have been complaining about how it feels impossible to tumble through an enemy's square using CMD + 10. And not even worth a bother to attempt that at full speed, which gives -10 penalty to the check (net +20 gain?! Ouch!). Then it increases by +2 per enemy?
So much for the archtype acrobat that flips and bounds over enemies safely to reach the "insert important task here". :(
As for Feinting in combat, suddenly that's become easier to accomplish. It used to be an opposed roll with BAB + Sense Motive modifier against a Bluff roll. Now it either uses the enemy's CMD or 10 + Sense Motive modifier (in which case, the CMD is usually always the highest).
I guess the playtest didn't work out ALL the kinks.
If I remember correctly, that was harder to do in the beta. And now it's CMD+5 to go through an opponent's square.
But the skill system sure is clunky, and doesn't work well with the combat maneuvers system.
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I've always disliked how...gimped...tumbling has become in Pathfinder. My players have been complaining about how it feels impossible to tumble through an enemy's square using CMD + 10. And not even worth a bother to attempt that at full speed, which gives -10 penalty to the check (net +20 gain?! Ouch!). Then it increases by +2 per enemy?
So much for the archtype acrobat that flips and bounds over enemies safely to reach the "insert important task here". :(
As for Feinting in combat, suddenly that's become easier to accomplish. It used to be an opposed roll with BAB + Sense Motive modifier against a Bluff roll. Now it either uses the enemy's CMD or 10 + Sense Motive modifier (in which case, the CMD is usually always the highest).
I guess the playtest didn't work out ALL the kinks.
3.5 definitely had it easier, but it was often a problem because it never mattered how skilled your opponent was. You just made your DC 15/25 Tumble check and bam. Eventually you didn't even need to roll anymore. So even if you were fighting some crazy CR 20 demon, you could still flip around him as easy as if he were a commoner. That never quite felt right.
Don't forget the fact that Acrobatics now covers Jump, Tumble, and Balance, so it's much easier to keep the skill maxed than it would have been in 3.5.
Ok, here's the bigger problem.
There's a 5 ft. hall, the tumbler wants to move past 3 guys. He succeeds on the 1st two, fails on the 3rd. Where does that place him? back to an empty square (which makes no sense) or prone on the floor? (but he can't share the same square!)
That's why I always assumed a failure means you provoke the AoO, but you can still move through the square.
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Ok, here's the bigger problem.
There's a 5 ft. hall, the tumbler wants to move past 3 guys. He succeeds on the 1st two, fails on the 3rd. Where does that place him? back to an empty square (which makes no sense) or prone on the floor? (but he can't share the same square!)
That's why I always assumed a failure means you provoke the AoO, but you can still move through the square.
I have run into this issue as well. I agree it is hard to understand how the tumbler who succeed on bypassing the first two opponents but failed on the third, causing him to revert all the way back to the starting point in front of the first target. However, IMHO, it is not reasonable to say that he succeeds getting where he wanted to go and only sufferes an AoO from the last opponent. This ruling would always alow anyone to go whereever they want on the battlefield. I don't believe in that either. The problem lies in that the most logical solution is to pass the first two opponents but end up prone in the square with the third opponent. Essentially he successfully stopped the tumble and earned an AoO. But that opens all kinds of issues. What actions are available to the tumbler? Can he stand in the occupied square? Can he crawl or tumble to the next open square? Can he attack, from prone, the enemy standing in his square? What actions provoke additional AoO from the enemy? What about the other enemy that occupies the square next to the one our hero is prone in? It would seem that the current rules, while not necessarily based in reality, simplify the situation so it can be kept consistant without having a huge list of can and can-not's.
The only thing I can turn to, at least until some clarifications are made by the Pathfinder staff, is the D&D FAQ and the D&D Rules pages on WotC's website. They had a series of Rules clarifications, one of them on "Movement" and had 7 parts to it. They offered suggestions to handle an odd situation like that should it occur.
I never liked the idea that tumbling through an enemy square automatically stops if you fail. I think the only drawback should be an AoO, because that would solve a ton of problems. If the enemy really wanted to stop someone from getting through, use the AoO to make a trip or grapple attack.
Correct.I know that when tumbling through an opponent's square you make an acrobatics check vs the opponent's CMD to avoid the attack of opportunity.
If the acrobatics check fails but the AoA missed the tumbler still stops his movement before entering the opponent's square right?
I remember in another post you made that you guys were almost done with a list of clarifications for Pathfinder. Can you add this to the list as well? It's something that comes up rather frequently.
No one have any insight on how to handle a situation like that? It comes up rather commonly, I'm surprised it hasn't been answered elsewhere.
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Ok, here's the bigger problem.
There's a 5 ft. hall, the tumbler wants to move past 3 guys. He succeeds on the 1st two, fails on the 3rd. Where does that place him? back to an empty square (which makes no sense) or prone on the floor? (but he can't share the same square!)
That's why I always assumed a failure means you provoke the AoO, but you can still move through the square.
My suggestion would be to roll acrobatics once for tumbling through the hallway. In this situation you roll acrobatics against each foe's CMD+5+4 (+2 for each additional enemy you are tumbling past). If the roll beats all of the CMDs+4 then the tumbler goes on his merry way. If they fail then the tumbler stop at the first guy and take an AoO. With a second move action the tumbler may make another attempt.
To be honest, the acrobatics skill says nothing about having to roll an acrobatics test against each and every foe. For situations like the above and for groups of low level mooks I would just have my players roll once and compare. For numerous dangerous higher-level foes I would have my players roll for each foe with increasing difficulty per the +2 modifier as they went.
Tumbling is one check per tumble. After all if you pass against the Highest CMD +5+2 per opponent you'll pass all the others too.
Something else I had forgotten though:
"In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5."
Means the medium armored guys better like mithral if they want to tumble.
Ok, here's the bigger problem.
There's a 5 ft. hall, the tumbler wants to move past 3 guys. He succeeds on the 1st two, fails on the 3rd. Where does that place him? back to an empty square (which makes no sense) or prone on the floor? (but he can't share the same square!)
That's why I always assumed a failure means you provoke the AoO, but you can still move through the square.
if you end your movement in an illegal square you immediately go to the closest legal square.
this is a bit of a loophole, where say there's 4 of you in a 5ft. wide tunnel, you move but can only move up to the square that the person at the front of the party occupies, you immediately jump in front of him.
However, if you apply this reasoning carefully, note also that nothing in the Acrobatics description allows you to move through an enemy's square that you would not normally be able to move through. (If I am missing it, I'm sure someone will point it out pretty fast.) So a medium creature could not normally move through another medium opponent's space (without bull rush or overrun that is), right? The acrobatics/tumble check says nothing about letting you do so with a successful check.
unless i'm reading you wrong you're saying that you can't move through an enemy's space. well i'd have to disagree:
Move through an enemy’s space 5 + opponent’s Combat Maneuver Defense
@ Core RuleBook p.88
Ah, i see what you mean now. I think that it does intend to imply that by the way, if someone's in the square, it's harder (+5)
btw, you can move into a enemy's square without a check if it's 3 sizes larger (or smaller) than you (CRB p.193). you provoke tho.
I do not believe it's one skill check no matter how many enemies you tumble by or through, due to the fact that if you read the table correctly, it's assuming you are rolling a check per opponent's CMD.
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SITUATION
Move through a threatened area
BASE ACROBATICS DC*
Opponent's CMD
SITUATION
Move through an enemy’s space
BASE ACROBATICS DC*
5 + opponent’s CMD
*This DC is used to avoid an attack of opportunity due to movement. This DC increases by 2 for each additional opponent avoided in 1 round.
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So this makes it even more confusing. It's also giving evidence to the possibility that you can't even use Acrobatics to move through an enemy square unless you're normally allowed to, e.g. if the enemy is 3 sizes or more smaller or larger than you (I find it highly unlikely, but the wording is funky enough to indicate that).
Now it's saying the DC increases by 2 for each additional opponent avoided. The table says "Opponent's CMD", a singular term. Meaning you make a check against ONE enemy's CMD. It isn't clear on if you have to make a check for each enemy's CMD, adding +2 each time there's another enemy to tumble through or by, or if it really is just on single check and you add the DC for each opponent you plan on attempting to tumble by.
It's a real mess and I hope it's sorted out, because it's kind of freezing up our games.
Since Pathfinder is based off the d20 SRD, here's the following for the Tumble skill:
DC 25: Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy. Check separately for each opponent. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.
So, in 3.5e SRD, it was intentional to check separately for each enemy. Pathfinder doesn't make that entirely clear and doesn't help clarify what happens in the situation described above (5 ft. hall, multiple enemies and a failure happens part-way).
EDIT: Here's an update I found in the Rules Compendium. It's not Pathfinder, but it's the best thing I can find for such odd situations.
Ending Movement in an Illegal Space
Sometimes a creature ends its movement while moving through a space it isn’t allowed to stop in. When that happens, put the creature in the last legal position it occupied or the closest legal position, whichever is closer.
Which still doesn't help with the above situation, since by the 3rd enemy, either direction can be a legal position.
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Take it or leave it. You've been given a few good suggestions so far that work perfectly well in resolving your situation.
I understand your need for RAW but PF is pretty minimilist in explaining exactly how to run everything. So until we get an Eratta/FAQ you're just going to have to use what works best for you. Suck it up. ;P
Take it or leave it. You've been given a few good suggestions so far that work perfectly well in resolving your situation.
I understand your need for RAW but PF is pretty minimilist in explaining exactly how to run everything. So until we get an Eratta/FAQ you're just going to have to use what works best for you. Suck it up. ;P
Well I just find it odd that for about 9 years something like this has never been clarified as I am sure it's happened thousands of times by now.
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Sure, its been addressed in the old 3e and 3.5e FAQs plenty of times in the past but things worked slightly differently there. Pathfinder is doing some different things with some added rules (CMB/CMD) this time around so obviously previous edition FAQs/SRDs don't apply (unless you want them to, whatever works best for you and your game).
In this case, many go with the RAW of a single acrobatics check (which solves your problem) for a contiguous threatened area while others assert that a different check needs to be made per opponent (which causes your problem). This will remain somewhat ambiguous until an official FAQ comes out. Until then, you have to go with seems the most reasonable to you and your game group.
We've been treating it as 'One roll per threatened area moved through at the highest target #'.
For example, let's say I have a monk with 50 feet of movement. He further has a feat that lets him tumble at normal speed with no penalty. (this makes it easier to do the example).
He runs 5 ft and then enters a square threatened by the 3 musketeers, Athos, Porthos, and Dartagnian. He decides to tumble through Porthos, who is standing in the middle of the other two (horizontally). Then the monk tumbles at Porthos's CMD + 5 + 4 (Athos and Dartagnian) to get through the threatened area. He succeeds, and runs another 20 feet past Dartagnian, where he runs into a 5 foot corridor.
This time, he runs into Jean Grey, Wolverine, and Cyclops all in a row and tries to tumble past them. Wolverine, obviously, has the highest CMD, and so he tests against Wolverine's CMD + 5 + 4. If he succeeds, he stops on the other side of Cyclops. If he fails, he stops in front of Jean Grey.
This cuts down on rolls and prevents wierd things like succeeding against Jean and failing against Wolvy and having to teleport back 5 feet. Which would work if the monk in question was Nightcrawler, of course, but for everyone else it makes things complicated.
I run it pretty much the way MDT does.
As for the silliness about not being able to move through a square:
under "Moving through a Square"
Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to use Acrobatics to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see the Acrobatics skill).
If we are using MDT's way how many AoO, and from whom, would the failed tumbler take?
I would say that technically, if the you fail the check, you have never left a threatened square- so you haven't provoked. Seems a little unsatisfactory.
Additional weirdness- you have not used up your movement so you can just decide to move some other direction. Also seems unsatisfactory.