|
I have always wanted to play a summoner type class. My GM is planning on running Rise of the Runelords. I'm not worried about specifics to the modules, just wondering if the Summoner is a big waste of my time. I have read through it several times, and it seems kinda cool, especially for roleplaying, but it also seems a little underpowered. I like the idea of being able to control 2 summoned creatures (Eidolon and your ummoned monster) in a fight, but the limited number of spells makes themreally limited. I am leaning toward it, but just wanted some feedback from people who played one.
Thanks guys.
Right now they're cool, but not exactly strong, especially at higher levels. At least, not with a 'normal' build - ie, monster built for dealing HP damage with summoner in support. Going with a weapon-wielding humanoid eidolon helps some. I'm not sure if there's some other style of playing or building the character that gets more power out of them - they're new and gimmicky, so it wouldn't shock me if there's some out-of-the-box possibilities that haven't been nerfed - mostly due to the developers not realizing they were there.
Also, they aren't in their final version yet. They could still be improved, or even further nerfed, in their final version.
Regardless, Summoners aren't exactly bad, and I'm certainly having fun playing one, so if you like their style then just go with it and have fun.
I've been playing a level 14 summoner in the end of RotRL. I certainly don't think they are underpowered, and I actually be inclined to say the opposite. I might be wrong when numbers are crunched, but I've had no problem in holding my own (and then some) in my group, eventhough my Eidolon is anything but maximized.
Actually I often end up not really using my main character, because I feel I use enough time with my Eidolons attacks and the summoned creatures I've got (If you want efficiency go with several creatures to get most out of Augment Summoning and celestial animals smite).
|
Well, over the playtest period I've had two summoners in my group (DMing for one, playing alongside the other) and both were able to contribute nicely.
The first one, who was 10th level and mostly played pre-nerf (so the following report isn't exactly accurate to what you'd play now, but he still did fine post-nerf), focused on buffing (haste, the mass ability enhancement spells), summoning, and had a couple of blasting type spell wands he used with Use Magic Device to pick off wounded targets. Black tentacles was a favorite too.
His Eidolon, Melisande, was a giantess who specialized in moving the enemy around the field (with the Awesome Blow feat and the Push special ability in the Eidolon description) and dealing one big wollop of skirmishing damage (something like 4d6+27 or so - the dice dropped to 3d6 because of the loss of a feat after the nerf if memory serves), and with Multi-attack wasn't too shabby for a full attacker either. She was a tidbit squishy (albeit this was in a high-powered campaign), but picking up the DR evolution offset that enough. Between her knocking foes around and the summoner himself firing off summons, enemies had a hard time not being herded into the waiting blades of the other party members.
The second one started at I believe 8th level, with the concept of a poisonous, tropical, lizard-like biped with lots of attacks. We only got to see him in action once prior to the nerf, and unfortunately we were in an undead-heavy adventure. With the next adventure, the degrade to only being able to poison once a round was griped at but tolerated. He performed smashingly, doing a decent job of filling the primary full-attack meleer (as our paladin had been temporarily retired to make room to playtest an inquisitor). The added bonus of STR poison was gravy. (The player also just pointed out to me that this eidolon was also on the receiving end of several buffs - primarily defensive in nature - and a simple bull's strength cast by my cleric.)
The summoner herself in this case takes the onus off the arcane caster to throw up buffs, her repertoire consisting of things like barkskin, mage armor, and the attribute enhancement spells and the ever-popular haste. She also provides tactical support with summons too, of course.
So the short of it is that, at least in the 'sweet spot', summoners seem to perform quite adequately. The main weakness we've seen is slightly-weak defenses (again, we play high-powered games) and the fact that the summoners themselves seem to run out of spells rather quickly - though I suppose that's largely intentional given it is bardic casting. (On the other hand, the summon monster spell-like ability is fairly unlikely to run out, so plenty of resources to back up the spellcasting)
Summoner is not underpowered. His spell list is limited, but useful for buffing, and creating havock on the field. I'm a level 7 Eidolon, and went with a quadraped, large, who bites, grabs, and rakes. Also, summoning as a standard action through the spell like ability is reaaaaallly useful. Since you can share your HP when the eidolon is almost dead, a cleric's channel energy can be 2x as effective (damage to one creature, split to a second, and then healed in a burst). And the tv distracted me, I lost my train of thought, but all in all a very playable class, and not underpowered at all.
One rule you should notice if you haven't (like i missed it in the first place since it is hidden in the rules for the link ability) is that the summoner and her Eidolon shares magic item spots. They don't share the effects, it just means that the combined number of magic items can't exceed 2 ring, 1 headband, 1 amulet, 1 cloak, 1 pair of gauntlets and 1 pair of shoes.
The problem I have with several of the new classes is the spell lists.
There needs to be a mechanic in place that allows new spells into the lists, such as a feat that each level lets a character trade out one spell from an additional source.
Especially with new materials coming out and older/favorite spells not being on the list.
If PF ever releases a spell compendium then they would have to specify which spells add to witch lists (pun intended)
Well we have recieved assurances there will be sidebars to explain what the motiviations were to create the spell lists and how to consider new (or old) spells to be added to the list. Either way that had to be done with DM approval, so if they simply add in advice on how to update spell lists from other sources (like 3.5 spells) then it shouldnt be a problem.
I think they needed to create new lists, otherwise the classes that are casters wouldnt have a unique feel to them. After all spells make up a large part of any class that has them, you dont want them all feeling the same as the wizard, cleric and druid.
To the OP:
I think the summoner is very playable. His eidolon can be just about anything you want. Party rogue died, and hte player remade as a paladin? No worries, when you level you can shift your eidolon into skill monkey mode. It can also be a fighter front line type, or even get some spell like abilities to support in casting.
You have to remember the eidolon is the principle feature of the class, not the summoner. His limited spell list is meant to be there to help his summons, not to be his primary input for hte class. He can also be a pretty descent fighter (with 3/4 bab and some pretty good buff spells). Basically he can take on the roll the bard does but you know, better. His casting and combat is secondary, his summons and eidolon are his primary contribution (like the bard's songs).
My advice, don't treat the summoner like just a support caster. He is a gish, and can work well in the fray fighting right next to his eidolon. The people I hear complaining about him don't seem to realize that he works as both a melee or ranged character without his eidolon.
My advice, don't treat the summoner like just a support caster. He is a gish, and can work well in the fray fighting right next to his eidolon. The people I hear complaining about him don't seem to realize that he works as both a melee or ranged character without his eidolon.
I would agree with that, i played a summoner in some playtests and he made a pretty solid combatant, if you make strength (or dex for ranged) a primary stat you can be a pretty good combatant, especially if you stay close to your eidolon and he helps you (shield ally and even aid another, or you give him a spell like ability to buff you). Flank with your eidolon and your summon and you can be a real force when enlarged and hasted.
Either that or keep your casting stat as primary and use support battlefield control as your summoners actions.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
I really like the discussion here, and some of the corner-quirks of the class that people have posted. My sincere gratitude. If you'd allow, I'd like to reiterate one of my concerns about how the class is played around the table.
Some GMs allow players to run their cohorts, animal companions, intelligent weapons, and familiars as extentions of the PC, who always know what the PC is thinking and always agree. (Obviating the need for animal companions to "know trikcs", for example.) From some discussions on messageboards, it seems that this is the playstyle that Paizo employees use.
Other groups treat NPCs as GM-controlled characters. Animal companions, cohorts, and so forth are friendly allies of the PC, but they have their own agendas.
The rules for the Summoner's Eidolon specifically mention that it's an NPC, an aspect of an emmense outsider beyound human understanding, rather than an ectoplasmic extention of the character's will. We play that the Eidolon is under the GM's control, but allied to the subconscious desires of the Summoner. (Organized play, such as Pathfinder Society, is a different thing.)
So, ask your GM how she handles NPCs. If you're expecting to get to play the monster, and the session turns out to be a lot of good monster versus bad monster, with you playing the Summoner off on the sidelines, you might be disappointed.
Just a quick question, i haven´t looked into the class deeply:
Is a ranged Eidolon doable? Either with arms and a bow, or as a moveable catapult that throws rocks at enemies...
Just a quick question, i haven´t looked into the class deeply:
Is a ranged Eidolon doable? Either with arms and a bow, or as a moveable catapult that throws rocks at enemies...
I dont see why you couldnt. Just do biped eidolon and get them the weapon profficiency, and boost strength. It probably wont be as powerful as a meleer though. But with things like the ability to fly, a ranged eidolon could be very effective.
Just a quick question, i haven´t looked into the class deeply:
Is a ranged Eidolon doable? Either with arms and a bow, or as a moveable catapult that throws rocks at enemies...
She's not been updated yet, but Ayla and Arachne were an Archery Team I made for a game that never got off the ground.
If you ask your DM to remove the oddity of the equipment nerf, then the Summoner should be perfectly playable and fun.
With that equipment nerf in place, you should have alot of fun and useful lower levels but the higher you get either 1) you will die too easily because the eidolon has all your gear or 2) your Eidolon will die because you have all of its gear. So it will really depend on just how high your group is wanting to level up.
-S
If you ask your DM to remove the oddity of the equipment nerf, then the Summoner should be perfectly playable and fun.
With that equipment nerf in place, you should have alot of fun and useful lower levels but the higher you get either 1) you will die too easily because the eidolon has all your gear or 2) your Eidolon will die because you have all of its gear. So it will really depend on just how high your group is wanting to level up.
-S
Just out of curiosity what equipment nerf are you talking about?
|
I have always wanted to play a summoner type class. My GM is planning on running Rise of the Runelords. I'm not worried about specifics to the modules, just wondering if the Summoner is a big waste of my time. I have read through it several times, and it seems kinda cool, especially for roleplaying, but it also seems a little underpowered. I like the idea of being able to control 2 summoned creatures (Eidolon and your ummoned monster) in a fight, but the limited number of spells makes themreally limited. I am leaning toward it, but just wanted some feedback from people who played one.
Thanks guys.
It's worth noting that if you want more flexibility and spellcasting as a summoning type caster, you might take a look at the Oracle with the Nature mystery. This allows you to have both summon nature's ally I-IX as well as summon monster I-IX on your spell list; I think it's the only class in Pathfinder right now to allow this. You won't have the eidolon or the summoning SLA that summoners get, but you'll be casting spells far more than with a summoner.
|
|
Just out of curiosity what equipment nerf are you talking about?If you ask your DM to remove the oddity of the equipment nerf, then the Summoner should be perfectly playable and fun.
With that equipment nerf in place, you should have alot of fun and useful lower levels but the higher you get either 1) you will die too easily because the eidolon has all your gear or 2) your Eidolon will die because you have all of its gear. So it will really depend on just how high your group is wanting to level up.
-S
From the Advanced Player's Guide playtest PDF, page 34, under Link:
"In addition, magic items interfere with the summoner's connection to his eidolon. As a result, the summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots. For example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conflict, the items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used by the eidolon become dormant. The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item."
I would shoot down the VOP.. unless the summoner And eidolon took it.
Then it would just be peculiarly interesting.
I do think though that having both (or either) of them take it probably violates the spirit of the rule put in place. The idea of course was to limit the items you get between yourself and your big E and this feat just waives that requirement.
Still though, it could lead to some interesting RP.
-S
Just out of curiosity what equipment nerf are you talking about?If you ask your DM to remove the oddity of the equipment nerf, then the Summoner should be perfectly playable and fun.
With that equipment nerf in place, you should have alot of fun and useful lower levels but the higher you get either 1) you will die too easily because the eidolon has all your gear or 2) your Eidolon will die because you have all of its gear. So it will really depend on just how high your group is wanting to level up.
-S
From the Advanced Player's Guide playtest PDF, page 34, under Link:
"In addition, magic items interfere with the summoner's connection to his eidolon. As a result, the summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots. For example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conflict, the items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used by the eidolon become dormant. The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item."
I actually think that is a pretty elegant way of restricting the 'load your eidolon with magic gear' issue. In playtests it was clear that loading the eidolon with magic items made it too powerful, particularly in the AC area. So the summoner should have to give something up in that area to have his eidolon decked out in magical gear.
|
|
Wow. Thanks for all the responses. Right now, I am leaning toward a half-orc summoner. I missed the magic item nerf, so thanks for pointing that out. One thing I think would make the class more cool, is if they had access to some sort of healing magic, in relation to healing the eidolon. Vow of Poverty is interesting, I would never have thought of that. I like the flexibility of the eidolon. I was actually thinking of taking the Eidolon up a rogue type trer. It would be a cool RPing idea, if my GM approves, of haveing VoP on my summoner, but having the Eidolon as a manifestation of his Orcish ways. My summoner being pacifistic and all VoP up, and the eidolon being nasty, greedy etc...Could be fun...
Wow. Thanks for all the responses. Right now, I am leaning toward a half-orc summoner. I missed the magic item nerf, so thanks for pointing that out. One thing I think would make the class more cool, is if they had access to some sort of healing magic, in relation to healing the eidolon. Vow of Poverty is interesting, I would never have thought of that. I like the flexibility of the eidolon. I was actually thinking of taking the Eidolon up a rogue type trer. It would be a cool RPing idea, if my GM approves, of haveing VoP on my summoner, but having the Eidolon as a manifestation of his Orcish ways. My summoner being pacifistic and all VoP up, and the eidolon being nasty, greedy etc...Could be fun...
Intersting, never thought of having the eidolon be manifestations of the summoners personality quirks, could be fun. You could do that regardless of whether or not your DM allows VoP.
I wouldnt hold your breath for the ability to heal the eidolon, i think that would severly anger those in the 'summoner is a one man party' camp.
I think the man who brought up VoP should be beat with the core rule book. But maybe that's just me...shug
|
|
Yeah..the whole VoP thing got axed before it even got off the ground.
Still leaning toward a half orc. Maybe I'll make him focused on the mental attributes and phsically weak, and have his Eidolon be the opposite. Maybe the 2 sides of the same coin idea. Since he was bullied and pushed around in Orc society, he contacted the Eidolon in his youth, as a manifestation of his rage and anfer of being abused. That could be the motivation for leaving Orc society. The eidolon could be a bigger, stronger version of him...
Yeah..the whole VoP thing got axed before it even got off the ground.
Still leaning toward a half orc. Maybe I'll make him focused on the mental attributes and phsically weak, and have his Eidolon be the opposite. Maybe the 2 sides of the same coin idea. Since he was bullied and pushed around in Orc society, he contacted the Eidolon in his youth, as a manifestation of his rage and anfer of being abused. That could be the motivation for leaving Orc society. The eidolon could be a bigger, stronger version of him...
You will probably want to have him have either a descent dex or a descent strength. Completely tanking his physical stats puts the summoner himself in a permanent back seat to his eidolon.
You only have yourself to blame for the beating.
Patman, pretty good concept all and all
|
|
Thanks seeker. we are doing 25 point builds, so I can do a non physical character pretty well. Thinking of making the eidolon as barbaric (taht doesn't look right)and phsical as possible. The same with summonings. Make them all the biggest, baddest possible, but with my spells, taking the lore or defensive spells only.
So my other question. I am assuming that your eidolon can be healed through normal means and potions. I wasa thinking of pumping up UMD so I can used CLW wands..
Wand of CLW is a great way to go. I do like the eidolon being the hulk to your banner. Really nice concept.
Thanks seeker. we are doing 25 point builds, so I can do a non physical character pretty well. Thinking of making the eidolon as barbaric (taht doesn't look right)and phsical as possible. The same with summonings. Make them all the biggest, baddest possible, but with my spells, taking the lore or defensive spells only.
So my other question. I am assuming that your eidolon can be healed through normal means and potions. I wasa thinking of pumping up UMD so I can used CLW wands..
correct, cure light wounds and such will heal the eidolon. so as soon as you can reliably hit the dc CLW wands are a great way to heal anyone (eidolon included) out of combat.
|
|
One more dumb question.
it says an eidolon cannot wear armoor of any kind. Would this also include Bracers of Armor, Amulets of Natural Armor or RoPs? I would not think so, but just was wondering if there is any offical word on this?
It is good that they made UMD a class skill for the summoner. Looks like I can start with an 8 spot in UMD. 1 for rank, 3 for class skill and 4 for cha.
One more dumb question.
it says an eidolon cannot wear armoor of any kind. Would this also include Bracers of Armor, Amulets of Natural Armor or RoPs? I would not think so, but just was wondering if there is any offical word on this?
It is good that they made UMD a class skill for the summoner. Looks like I can start with an 8 spot in UMD. 1 for rank, 3 for class skill and 4 for cha.
11 if you really really want to be good at it (Skill Focus) at level 1
|
|
Though really, if you have ANY other divine casters in the party, or casters with CLW on their spell list, you could just lend the wand to them post battle to do the healing for you. Having UMD maxed is a good backup, but I wouldn't waste feats on it unless you plan on heavily using non-class scrolls, wands, and the like.
|
|
Another question on wording, in part because I know my GM is reading this, and I would like to have it spelled out, because it is not in the description.
Does the Summoner wear the magic items, say RoP or belt of Ogre Power, and assign the bonuses to the Eidolon, or does the Eidolon actually posess the item. I would assume in the instance of a weapon, the Eidolon would posess it, but do items then travel back to wherever the Eidolon is from with it? I would venture to guess that the Summoner posesses the items, and can change where the bonuses apply, but that seems like it could be a bit abusive, unless changing the bonuses were a standard action. And if you had a +4 RoP, could you apply 2 points to the Eidolon and 2 to yourself? Again, seems kinda abusive and vague in the description.
Thanks again, y'all are a big help.
One more dumb question.
it says an eidolon cannot wear armoor of any kind. Would this also include Bracers of Armor, Amulets of Natural Armor or RoPs? I would not think so, but just was wondering if there is any offical word on this?
It is good that they made UMD a class skill for the summoner. Looks like I can start with an 8 spot in UMD. 1 for rank, 3 for class skill and 4 for cha.
There is nothing barring the Eidolon from upping his AC from non-armor bonuses. Even things that grant armor bonuses like bracers of AC or Mage Armor are fine.
In my Rise of Runelords game we are all level 3 and we have a fighter, a cleric, and a rogue. I have so far used my Eidolon as a tank and had him take pounce and gave him claws, plus upped his AC with feats so he is great in close quarters and I use him as a mount.
I am the buffer mostly but I summon multiple dogs to "take the hits" and get into flanking so everyone else has positioning. Make sure your Summoner has a good "use magic device" skill as you should be the one doing all back up with wands, potions, scrolls.
With the new rules on wands you don't lose a charge for failing or botch it unless you roll low. I have I think a 9 and as long as I don't roll a one I can't botch.
This has been working awesome as our rogue is the damage dealer, the cleric healing, and our fighter plays as if he's new so he does whatever.
I love the summoner and hope it doesn't change much more as you have such a room for whatever you want to make of it.
Another question on wording, in part because I know my GM is reading this, and I would like to have it spelled out, because it is not in the description.
Does the Summoner wear the magic items, say RoP or belt of Ogre Power, and assign the bonuses to the Eidolon, or does the Eidolon actually posess the item. I would assume in the instance of a weapon, the Eidolon would posess it, but do items then travel back to wherever the Eidolon is from with it? I would venture to guess that the Summoner posesses the items, and can change where the bonuses apply, but that seems like it could be a bit abusive, unless changing the bonuses were a standard action. And if you had a +4 RoP, could you apply 2 points to the Eidolon and 2 to yourself? Again, seems kinda abusive and vague in the description.
Thanks again, y'all are a big help.
My understanding is that the summoner wears magic items that affect him, the eidolon wears what affects him. Its just a matter of slots not overlapping. The eidolon still wears the belt of giant strength, but while he does the summoner cannot wear a belt.
I also dont think you can split a bonus between the two. You have to wear an item to gain the benefit, and you gain the full benefit, the summoner rule is just about slots.
Also in response to your previous question about bracers of armor and such, i would say yes, it is only phyical armor (chainmail, fullplate) and such that is being limited. Your eidolon can wear bracers of armor, just means the summoner cant wear anything on that slot.
|
The beatings will continue until morale improves!
Here, I'll cast a spell on you that gives you infinte Dr/VoP haters.
*casts spell*My scales are hard enough I don't have to worry. Vow of Poverty is a wonderful feat if used correctly. There is a reason there is a warning on the cover of The Book of Exalted that says the material inside is for mature players only.
OFF TOPIC: Man what's up with all those teamwork feats? That stuff is garbage. Why does the inquisitor get teamwork feats and not just regular extra martial feats like a fighter?