Hi all,
This is my first post so I'm sure I'll sound like a newb, but I need a hand.
I'm playing a Paladin in a game with a GM (who has 20 years experience) that does not like Paladins. He considers them weak warriors or glorified babysitters/cops. Mostly this is because of all the rules/guidelines they have to follow or suffer the consequences.
I've been having a really harsh time, I am at level 6 and am immune to fear, however because he is running us through Carion Hill and there is this "Great Evil" from before my God's time (Sarenrae)I can't even detect evil without my eyes bleeding. Yes they bled.
I'm new to the game, I've only been playing for 3 years now, started with 3.5 and dabbled in 4th until the realization it was awful and am now here and happy in general.
If anyone can help me figure out how to change his mind about running a Paladin, I wouldn't just appreciate the input, I'd be forever grateful.
Well, the Detect Evil causing your eyes to bleed is probably just a fancy way of saying the area's EVIL, and he would of done the same thing if a cleric cast the spell.
As for his opinion of paladins, well, half the stories about Lawful Stupid paladins are because the players think paladins have to be that way, and the other half are because the DM thinks they do. Not that much you can do about it.
Personally Paladins are one of my favorite classes (after Sorcerors and Druids), I understand what its like trying to make a Paladin "fit in" with a group of (often) mercenary minded characters that never really do anything for the common good - unless the job pays well.
That and Paladins generally detest the defilement of corpses, breaking of laws, stealing and general 'evil' going on in their vicinity. That being said, Pathfinder is a little more flexible about Paladins possible working alongside Evil characters towards a greater good, though it should be said while they 'tolerate' Rogues and Evil characters and suchlike, it should provide plenty of good roleplay fodder and possibly create some inter-character storylines which is always fun to do. That being said such 'alliances' between the Paladin and Evil character are short-lived, if the alliance looks like its achieving more harm that good overall.
As for "Detect Evil" making your 'eyes bleed', thats nothing more than an abstract or metaphorical way to explain how 'evil' something or someone (or even somewhere) is that you use the ability on. That being said - you dont actually go blind or anything from using it (that was an old relic back from the days of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons/2nd Edition where you actually suffered if you used it against a highly evil source compared to your own power level)
As for running a Paladin I offer a few pointers, (the list is practically endless)
- Invest in the best armor you can move around in up to your maximum dexterity adjustment.
- Get yourself at least one decent slashing and one decent bludgeoning weapon (staples for beating most undead types), magical and/or made of alchemical silver (or mithral if you can afford it) too.
- Take advantage of your Smite ability, Good Saves (Thanks to Divine Grace) and invest well in Knowledge (Religon) and Knowledge (Planes)
- Best way to imagine yourself playing a Paladin generally is like a Crusader, a champion or hero who fights evil for the sake of good, not for the sake of coin (Paladins sometimes refuse rewards if the reward comes from those who can ill afford it or who will suffer from giving their valuables away). This may bring conflict with the more 'mercenary minded' characters, so instead - let them keep their share and with your own share, donate what you cant reasonably use to improve your equipment in the form of donations or tithes to your church.
- Never turn a blind eye to evil, if your party members or anyone infront of you is performing an obviously evil act they should be held to account for it. But Paladins may give quarter to those who yield to them in a fight also, as to convert a sinner often prooves more fruitful than simply slaying a opponent (of course ensuring they dont lie to you to save their own skin takes a mixture of a good Sense Motive skill and possibly a Discern Lies/Zone Of Truth spell).
- Be brave but DONT be foolish. Paladins dont achieve anything by throwing themselves against impossible odds. (A Paladin would not single handedly charge a much stronger foe unless they felt they could reasonaly win). A Paladin would instead try to formulate a plan of attack, possibly build up strength or resources before engaging in the attempt (if time would permit) and hopefully curry some help from his comrades. A Paladin who for example, spots a very powerful Balor and hes nowhere near the level that he could fight it, he would NOT charge at it anyway but he could do his best to find some way to handle it or assist others possibly stronger or better skilled than him to take it down.
- Cherish your Mount (if thats your choice) or you take the Bonded Weapon option. If you take the Mount, treat it like a friend and trusted ally as you would do if it were your real companion in real life. Even though you get it back in 30 days or whenever you gain another level of Paladin (whichever comes first), dont be tempted to use it to 'slow down' a powerful enemy like a Summoned Monster, treat it with some dignity befitting a Paladins trusted steed.
- Never be stingy with the healing, while Paladins have limited uses of their Lay On Hands, they should never pass up the chance to heal those in need and possibly even cure some afflictions with their Mercy ability.
- Never condone torture, players seem to take to 'torturing' prisoners to get the information they want (whatever way you look at it, its technically evil if it involves some kind of physical torture). In some instances when it involves preventing some definitive big bad evil event, it might be wavered but a Paladin should strive to get the truth from any other means neccisary (Diplomacy, Bluff or Discern Lies/Zone Of Truth) and possibly even bribes, or promises of freedom and sparing the creatures life may get truths you seek.
These are just examples I have seen from my own experiences, of me personally and my players, there are infinately more and these are only guidelines, not actual rules.
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Of course, if the GM just flat out hates your class, call him on it. Either he cuts the crap and lets you use your class abilities properly or he bans the class altogether - both are reasonable choices. But the passive-aggressive bull-plop that he seems to be pulling on you is pathetic and childish, and he needs to be called on it.
Sorry if that seems harsh and aggressive, it's just that I really hate that kind of behavior in a GM. If he does not want someone to play a certain class, then ban the class; otherwise allow the player to play his character.
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Hi all,
however because he is running us through Carion Hill and there is this "Great Evil" from before my God's time (Sarenrae)
Notify your gm that Sarenrae personally saw the killing of Ihys by Asmodeus, the end of the conflict by the two that were called the "First" in the whole of reality(Book of the Damned 1). Relying on that little factoid, one can garner that she's every bit as old as any evil in the multiverse. It's just that she didn't achieve godhood until ascending from the ranks of the Empyreal Lords. By planar and multiversal reckoning, this was much much later. This here is a massively powerful being by any scale, it's just that Asmodeus will always be vastly more powerful, he is the First after all, so Sarenrae's strengths are sometimes downplayed in comparison. And of course, since Sarenrae is less an antagonist to Asmodeus, since she believes in forgiveness, and more an opponent to the Rough Beast Rovagug, we sort of often associate her with the plethore of "younger" and more recent dieties.
Certainly a paladin of Sarenrae is on the threshold of nearly limitless power, she's after all the martial representation of the Dawnflower on the Prime Material. I think your gm should allow the character to display her strength, she's restricts herself to a strict code to gain access to that prowess and I think that kind of devotion should the grounds for letting a character really live that role of an avatar of divine power. Both personality-wise and ability-wise!
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I mean, two things are happening here. One, he's putting you in an area where you are is pure evil. If this it turning off your detect evil, well, at least you know you're in an area where your best ability (smite) will come in handy.
Second, you do have Pally code, but don't let them force you to "be stupid", especially when it comes to this land of "pure evil". If your allies do things morally questionable that oppose this land, let them. After all, they are destroying a network of evil so vast that it makes your eyes bleed; anything that aids the destruction of this land is justifyable. Tell him you have sworn to destroy this blight at any cost; you may need atonement afterwards (book even says you will work with a lesser evil if a greater evil is threatening the land, though you must atone anyway).
Not having a class ability sucks, but DE is minor anyway. Your major abilities are smite BBEG and free action self-heal (absorb damage for the group; nobody can do this better than a Pally). And believe it or not, being in an area of pure evil makes a pally shine, not suck; attacking a neutral area is far worse for you.
Hi all,
This is my first post so I'm sure I'll sound like a newb, but I need a hand.
I'm playing a Paladin in a game with a GM (who has 20 years experience) that does not like Paladins. He considers them weak warriors or glorified babysitters/cops. Mostly this is because of all the rules/guidelines they have to follow or suffer the consequences.
I've been having a really harsh time, I am at level 6 and am immune to fear, however because he is running us through Carion Hill and there is this "Great Evil" from before my God's time (Sarenrae)I can't even detect evil without my eyes bleeding. Yes they bled.
I'm new to the game, I've only been playing for 3 years now, started with 3.5 and dabbled in 4th until the realization it was awful and am now here and happy in general.
If anyone can help me figure out how to change his mind about running a Paladin, I wouldn't just appreciate the input, I'd be forever grateful.
It is possible he simply doesnt like paladins, however in terms of the results of detect evil he is probably not off base.
I have run carrion hill and I did something similar with a specific aura, though I usually use nose bleeds to describe an overwhelming aura not eye bleeding. In the second round of detect evil, if the strongest aura you detect is 'overwhelming', you are stunned for 1 round by the shear force of the evil. You will never be able to get the power and location of each evil aura (that is in the 3rd round and when you are stunned you lose concentration).
That is rules as written. That said, carrion hill is supposed to be a horror adventure, so he is describing it in a little more grusome way.
Eyes bleeding is really just a serious warning about your situation, like people have said.
If he's doing truly underhanded stuff like having people treat you like dirt everywhere or making you do things you don't agree you should have to, pelt him with dice.
Or tell him it's not going to happen. If you have a relationship with him (friends, etc) he should take a moment to reconsider if you hit him with your serious face.
Eyes bleeding is really just a serious warning about your situation, like people have said.
If he's doing truly underhanded stuff like having people treat you like dirt everywhere or making you do things you don't agree you should have to, pelt him with dice.
Or tell him it's not going to happen. If you have a relationship with him (friends, etc) he should take a moment to reconsider if you hit him with your serious face.
The dice pelt threat often works at my table, but that is because most of us have novelty oversized dice that the size of a grapefruit.
I suggest you punch him in the face. I mean, that always works, right?
How about just talking to your GM? Ask him what he has against Paladins. Then see if the both of you can find some common ground where you can both enjoy the game. If he thinks they are weak, then why doesn't he give your Paladin a boost? If he does not like all of the constraints on Paladins, why doesn't he lift some of them?
I bet his dislike of Paladins has something to do with bad past experiences. Find out what those are and make sure they are not repeated by you.
I suggest you punch him in the face. I mean, that always works, right?
How about just talking to your GM? Ask him what he has against Paladins. Then see if the both of you can find some common ground where you can both enjoy the game. If he thinks they are weak, then why doesn't he give your Paladin a boost? If he does not like all of the constraints on Paladins, why doesn't he lift some of them?
I bet his dislike of Paladins has something to do with bad past experiences. Find out what those are and make sure they are not repeated by you.
I think we have ALL had bad experiences with paladins. If you have never come accross the arogant lawful stupid paladin you havent been gaming long enough. Its entirely possible the dm has very specific ideas about hte paladin roleplay wise. It is why any time im playing a paladin or have one in a group i am dming i sit down and talk out what we both think (player and dm) a paladin should be, and what it means in the game world.
Well it sounds like that adventure may be broken by detect evil at will, so your DM is trying to reign in it a little. So you use it sparingly instead of all the time.
Ask him if this is the case, is he worried about role playing encoutners going belly up if you can just look around and as a move action determine if someone is evil or not. Is he worried that the infinite ability to do so will ruin the adventure.
If this is the case then ask if he is willing for the time while yoru PC is in this sink hole of evil to use detect evil like they way it was handled in Ravenloft. It switched to detect chaos. Your chaotic good fighter will be detected along with the chaotic evil vampire that is dressed like a noble lord drinking wine and eating cheese.
Also if he want to be really crappy to you, then allow situational fear come into effect on a paladin. They are immune to magical fear, but just the sheer horror of an encounter would cause your paladin to recoil. While other may panic and run away you are only shaken though.
Oh and I say go for the bonding of the weapon over the mount. Paladins mounts use to be BROKEN, now they are pretty tame, while their weapons can be BROKEN now.
At the very least, stick to your guns, no matter how much he tries to pwn your paladin. Just stay true to your code, be honorable. Enjoy being the knight vs the entire world of evil. Show your DM that a paladin can be effective and fun to play.
Once you get a few levels and you bond your weapon with holy and a few pluses his jaw will drop, then you smite evil the BBEG undead guy, and use channel smite with each attack to boot, you will chop his undead guy down to nothing in no time. When that happens and you pwn a BBEG just smile look at the DM and say. "You know you are right paladins are weak? But you know what? I still like playing one."
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Hi all,
This is my first post so I'm sure I'll sound like a newb, but I need a hand.
I'm playing a Paladin in a game with a GM (who has 20 years experience) that does not like Paladins. He considers them weak warriors or glorified babysitters/cops. Mostly this is because of all the rules/guidelines they have to follow or suffer the consequences.
I've been having a really harsh time, I am at level 6 and am immune to fear, however because he is running us through Carion Hill and there is this "Great Evil" from before my God's time (Sarenrae)I can't even detect evil without my eyes bleeding. Yes they bled.
I'm new to the game, I've only been playing for 3 years now, started with 3.5 and dabbled in 4th until the realization it was awful and am now here and happy in general.
If anyone can help me figure out how to change his mind about running a Paladin, I wouldn't just appreciate the input, I'd be forever grateful.
There is a Lovecraftian theme going on here so I can see that he was trying to be dramtic. I don't want to give to many details here because it wouldn't be cool.
But it wouldn't hurt if you have never read any Lovecraft to look up Lovecraftian themes on Wikipedia to get an understanding of the overwelming type of alien evil that is the "Old Ones". You may want to take the "eyes bleeding" thing as a sign from your god just how much danger your in.
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Show him the reverse of a paladin, and go blackguard! If he thought paladins were bad before, wait till he sees you now...
There is a game I play in on Sundays. In this game, detect can lead to blindness, but that is usually removed by any healing magic, or it doesn't last long enough to be a problem. This is our DM's way of showing us we are looking at something really strong.
Like others have said, call him on it. If he has a good reason for having DE act like that, it's okay. Then ask him why he doesn't like Paladins, and try to show him yours is different(if a stereotype is the problem).
Well it sounds like that adventure may be broken by detect evil at will, so your DM is trying to reign in it a little. So you use it sparingly instead of all the time.
Ask him if this is the case, is he worried about role playing encoutners going belly up if you can just look around and as a move action determine if someone is evil or not. Is he worried that the infinite ability to do so will ruin the adventure.
It may be a little of collumn A and B
I know the adventure, and there actually is an overwhelming evil aura in a couple places. It may very well be he was going RaW depending on where in the adventure this occured.In addition the big bad is supposed to be hidden and hard to find. Detect evil can definately rain on the scary invisible monster parade, thats for sure. So it's possible both are the case.
I think we have ALL had bad experiences with paladins.
…and CE characters and Kender and thieves and…
Disruptive players ruin many aspects of role playing games. I believe the thing is to remember it is not the aspect that is the problem.
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I actually did a Pally guide, and added a roleplaying note that most Pallys seem to play as bullheaded, jerkish, "Follow my rules" types, which nobody likes to play with. If he has played with a lot of these, I can understand his hatred. Ignore the draw towards this type and go for a more flavorful, hard-pressed, take-no-prisoners champion of justice. He will learn to respect you more.
Miro:
I've found that the Pathfinder rules should change the minds of people that find paladins weak; hopefully your GM will be one of them. I know it can be hard to set aside decades-long prejudices, but your smite evil ability will kick butt in that adventure. I suspect that most of the evil things you fight will obviously be evil. Your detect evil ability shouldn't really be that necessary.
Just do what paladins do best: Be a shining exemplar of good crushing evil at every turn. Hopefully your paladin will win the DM's respect, grudging or not.
Note also that Detect Evil is a great way to completely mess with your players brain. The problem is Detect Evil is an at will radius effect. On top of that, for pally's, there's no outward major signs you are doing it. So, Pally's tend to use it surrupticiously whenever they can.
I had a Pally in my game invited to dinner with The Regent of a city, at the table was The Regent (Lizardfolk), two nobles (Catfolk), the Captain of the City Guard (Blackscale Lizardfolk), an Ambassador from another land (winged Halfling), the Head of a Trade Ligation (Human), and the head of the Merchant's Guild (Poisondusk Lizardfolk), and the Regent's son (Lizardfolk). In the background are 6 guards (all Lizardfolk).
All the players are, of course, doing Sense Motives on every person at the table, and the Pally is detecting evil all over the place. So he detected Evil alright, all around him. Above, behind, left right front and back. ;) All moderate evils (about his level), but nothing he could pinpoint. He kept staring at each diner in turn, trying to figure out which one was evil, but they all came back negative (he made an jack*ss of himself of course doing it).
The other players knew he detected it, so they are all acting suspicious of everyone (except the lizardboy). The Regent is acting very nervous the whole time.
Eventually, they find out the reason is there are 10 assassins (ninjas + a warmage) in hiding. They attack (coup de gras the guards from invisibility) and start attacking the dinner party. The players aren't sure who at the table might turn on them (nobody, all the evil was coming from the assassins). But it threw them for a loop and the dinner party didn't trust them during the fight because of how they acted earlier at dinner. :)
The Regent, they found out afterwards, was nervous because it was her first major dinner since she took the Regency. ;)
Miro:
I've found that the Pathfinder rules should change the minds of people that find paladins weak; hopefully your GM will be one of them. I know it can be hard to set aside decades-long prejudices, but your smite evil ability will kick butt in that adventure. I suspect that most of the evil things you fight will obviously be evil. Your detect evil ability shouldn't really be that necessary.
Just do what paladins do best: Be a shining exemplar of good crushing evil at every turn. Hopefully your paladin will win the DM's respect, grudging or not.
+1
There are some things in dire need of smiting in that adventure. When I ran it the paladin enjoyed all but one encounter, but that had to do with high armor check penalties, and low dex.
Note also that Detect Evil is a great way to completely mess with your players brain. The problem is Detect Evil is an at will radius effect. On top of that, for pally's, there's no outward major signs you are doing it. So, Pally's tend to use it surrupticiously whenever they can.
I had a Pally in my game invited to dinner with The Regent of a city, at the table was The Regent (Lizardfolk), two nobles (Catfolk), the Captain of the City Guard (Blackscale Lizardfolk), an Ambassador from another land (winged Halfling), the Head of a Trade Ligation (Human), and the head of the Merchant's Guild (Poisondusk Lizardfolk), and the Regent's son (Lizardfolk). In the background are 6 guards (all Lizardfolk).
All the players are, of course, doing Sense Motives on every person at the table, and the Pally is detecting evil all over the place. So he detected Evil alright, all around him. Above, behind, left right front and back. ;) All moderate evils (about his level), but nothing he could pinpoint. He kept staring at each diner in turn, trying to figure out which one was evil, but they all came back negative (he made an jack*ss of himself of course doing it).
The other players knew he detected it, so they are all acting suspicious of everyone (except the lizardboy). The Regent is acting very nervous the whole time.
Eventually, they find out the reason is there are 10 assassins (ninjas + a warmage) in hiding. They attack (coup de gras the guards from invisibility) and start attacking the dinner party. The players aren't sure who at the table might turn on them (nobody, all the evil was coming from the assassins). But it threw them for a loop and the dinner party didn't trust them during the fight because of how they acted earlier at dinner. :)
The Regent, they found out afterwards, was nervous because it was her first major dinner since she took the Regency. ;)
If he was only nervous because he was throwing his first party, he may want to have a little greater concern for who is displeased with him and has 10 assasins in their employ :P.
But how exactly did the paladin fail to identify that the evil was not coming from those at the table? Are you of the mind that 'location' from detect spells is vague?
The dice pelt threat often works at my table, but that is because most of us have novelty oversized dice that the size of a grapefruit.
I have a set I sharpened.
"I suggest you punch him in the face. I mean, that always works, right?"
Frequently.
"I've found that the Pathfinder rules should change the minds of people that find paladins weak; hopefully your GM will be one of them."
They changed my mind, and I hated paladins. Glad cavalier has been reincarnated too.
In the case of overwhelming evil, I would have the paladin sweat blood--you know, like Jesus.
But how exactly did the paladin fail to identify that the evil was not coming from those at the table? Are you of the mind that 'location' from detect spells is vague?
3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.
If I had to guess what he did. The evil people were hidden behind the guests, so he detected evil from their directions.
Problem doubly solved in Pathfinder, since you can use a move action to study one person to see if they are evil. Instead of the 3 rounds to determine strength, direction, etc.
So in the dinner example it woudl be two people around checking for evil. A few rounds later him, nobody is evil, though my cone detect show evil, crap someone is invis or etheral!
Eyes bleeding is really just a serious warning about your situation, like people have said.
If he's doing truly underhanded stuff like having people treat you like dirt everywhere or making you do things you don't agree you should have to, pelt him with dice.
Or tell him it's not going to happen. If you have a relationship with him (friends, etc) he should take a moment to reconsider if you hit him with your serious face.
I did that once, scarred the person's lip...*NINJA DIE!*
I just want to thank everyone for their posts, I am so in love with this site....
In case anyone wants to know how I am playing with that "group of mercenary types" it feels like. I'm at the point now though where I've been taking the brunt of the damage and if I end up going up against the big baddie in this (who I've seen on the cover so I know to be afraid lol) I don't know or feel I have backup making it very hard to do anything.
I have actually purchased the Class options vol. 2: Paladins prevail and I was interested in taking a feat from it if I level and the GM has said that as long as the players don't mind he's ok with me taking anything from the book. (I will just word it quickly as it will be faster)
Covering Smite: When I smite something with my smite evil the creature gains the cowering condition for a number of rounds equal to charisma modifier.
Since smiting is a free action as long as I see the creature and it does not state that it won't work on any creature types, would it be fair to say I could make any evil creature cower? Or at least those of the undead evil, outsider evil, or evil dragon for sure because the effects double with smite evil against them.
I'm just looking for thoughts because I can see the GM arguing that i am powerless against this thing and if I can make it cower for 3 rounds (my cha mod.) then that can get us into position. And give me a chance as I'm terrified that the group will send me to my , death if I go in first anyways, I feel like I might be "sacrificed" as if this thing is that evil it will sense I am "that good" and I'm just gonna get one shot killed and then tpk. Then I'll hear, Gay Paladin again going down, or some other disrespectful thing telling me I make a crappy class choice.
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If you are targeted, you are doing your job. You have the highest hp, free-action self healing that cures statuses, and close to the best AC (certainly the best if you smite a target). Who better to take the blows? So be a beacon of goodness, you are actually benefitting from GM predjudice here.
But no, Cower doesn't work on our mind-effect immune opponents; though you're immune to fear and sounds like that is being ignored, so who knows?
Dude, I seriously hope it works out for you. Though, it sounds like you may want to either talk with the group after a game, and discuss your thoughts and feelings about your character, the rest of the party, and how the game is being run. If that doesn't work, you may want to search for a new group of people to game with.
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I just want to thank everyone for their posts, I am so in love with this site....
In case anyone wants to know how I am playing with that "group of mercenary types" it feels like. I'm at the point now though where I've been taking the brunt of the damage and if I end up going up against the big baddie in this (who I've seen on the cover so I know to be afraid lol) I don't know or feel I have backup making it very hard to do anything.
I have actually purchased the Class options vol. 2: Paladins prevail and I was interested in taking a feat from it if I level and the GM has said that as long as the players don't mind he's ok with me taking anything from the book. (I will just word it quickly as it will be faster)
Covering Smite: When I smite something with my smite evil the creature gains the cowering condition for a number of rounds equal to charisma modifier.
Since smiting is a free action as long as I see the creature and it does not state that it won't work on any creature types, would it be fair to say I could make any evil creature cower? Or at least those of the undead evil, outsider evil, or evil dragon for sure because the effects double with smite evil against them.
I'm just looking for thoughts because I can see the GM arguing that i am powerless against this thing and if I can make it cower for 3 rounds (my cha mod.) then that can get us into position. And give me a chance as I'm terrified that the group will send me to my , death if I go in first anyways, I feel like I might be "sacrificed" as if this thing is that evil it will sense I am "that good" and I'm just gonna get one shot killed and then tpk. Then I'll hear, Gay Paladin again going down, or some other disrespectful thing telling me I make a crappy class choice.
All you need to do is to keep your head on. (and it sounds like you are). Keep in mind that all you can do is be the best pally you can be, some other character types will be better at other things you don't do so well. Let the rogue shine at flanking, let the wizard throw the rays, and AOE.
When it comes to thioer time in the sun, try and support them, help keep them safe. And when the big bad comes lay down the smite.
But how exactly did the paladin fail to identify that the evil was not coming from those at the table? Are you of the mind that 'location' from detect spells is vague?
3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.
If I had to guess what he did. The evil people were hidden behind the guests, so he detected evil from their directions.
Close, the evil people were hidden behind false wall coverings. So, out of line of sight. That means the Pally wasn't sure where it was coming from, he kept concentrating on each diner in turn thinking they had some sort of spell going that was messing with his detect evil.
But how exactly did the paladin fail to identify that the evil was not coming from those at the table? Are you of the mind that 'location' from detect spells is vague?
3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.
If I had to guess what he did. The evil people were hidden behind the guests, so he detected evil from their directions.
Problem doubly solved in Pathfinder, since you can use a move action to study one person to see if they are evil. Instead of the 3 rounds to determine strength, direction, etc.
So in the dinner example it woudl be two people around checking for evil. A few rounds later him, nobody is evil, though my cone detect show evil, crap someone is invis or etheral!
Or hiding behind false wall coverings, or on the other side of that wall (which still happens to be in range)...
Well it sounds like that adventure may be broken by detect evil at will, so your DM is trying to reign in it a little. So you use it sparingly instead of all the time.
An adventure that can "broken" by any class's basic schtick suffers from at least one of two problems: lousy design and/or a weenie DM. Now, I can't say for certain which problem is at work here. I've not read "Carrion Hill" (but would be surprised if something as basic as "broken by detect evil" slipped by Paizo quality control) nor do I know the DM in question. So, it is possible there's a third option at work I've not considered.
But, IME, it almost always comes down to at least one of those two problems.
Where is that rule, I don't see it in the spell description.Problem doubly solved in Pathfinder, since you can use a move action to study one person to see if they are evil. Instead of the 3 rounds to determine strength, direction, etc.
So in the dinner example it woudl be two people around checking for evil. A few rounds later him, nobody is evil, though my cone detect show evil, crap someone is invis or etheral!
It is in the description of the paladins power to detect evil
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
Well it sounds like that adventure may be broken by detect evil at will, so your DM is trying to reign in it a little. So you use it sparingly instead of all the time.An adventure that can "broken" by any class's basic schtick suffers from at least one of two problems: lousy design and/or a weenie DM. Now, I can't say for certain which problem is at work here. I've not read "Carrion Hill" (but would be surprised if something as basic as "broken by detect evil" slipped by Paizo quality control) nor do I know the DM in question. So, it is possible there's a third option at work I've not considered.
But, IME, it almost always comes down to at least one of those two problems.
I guess you have never played in Ravenloft then.
When a game is based on gothic horror, or horror in general, where more often then not the person you thought was your friend just happens to be the source of all the evil. detect alignment spells really much up the feel of the game, and make it far to easy to know who the bad guy is.
Well it sort makes horror games blah when you can just walk down the street pick out the evil people and know who is really a vampire spawn vs regular townsfolk. Or be able to determine it is farmer Brown that contracted the curse of the were-blah and been eating the towns folk at night, using an at-will power instead of investigating the crime scenes fighting the were-farmer and getting the suttle hint of some straw left. etc.
Ravenloft was tuned for role playing encounters. You had to figure out the mystery along with hacking your way through the baddies. Though if you took a hack and slash appraoch you would normally end up dead or taken over by dark powers.
In Ravenloft all detect alignments is gone, but you can still do detect chaos and law. So you know if someone follows the laws but you cannot easily determine if cleric Bennie of the church of Pelor is a good guy or some devil hiding in the church after it swallowed Bennie's soul. You just know Bennie is lawful.
In Carrion Hill, it may have something written in the module about these evil areas saying that it does just that. So players have to use another method to determine who the bad guy is, and not just cast one spell.
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Of course, if the GM just flat out hates your class, call him on it. Either he cuts the crap and lets you use your class abilities properly or he bans the class altogether - both are reasonable choices. But the passive-aggressive bull-plop that he seems to be pulling on you is pathetic and childish, and he needs to be called on it.
Sorry if that seems harsh and aggressive, it's just that I really hate that kind of behavior in a GM. If he does not want someone to play a certain class, then ban the class; otherwise allow the player to play his character.
I concur. Being a DM of 29 years, you can tell your DM to be fair or allow you to exchange your character for another. If you find your DM tiresome and live in the Sacramento area, you can join my game. :^ )
I guess you have never played in Ravenloft then.
You guessed wrong.
In fact, I've not only played Ravenloft, I played the original Castle Ravenloft the year it was published.
:p
Ah well that would fix the problem he had at the dinner table.
It is in the description of the paladins power to detect evilDetect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
Actually, he wouldn't have detected anything at all, since he couldn't focus on the objects or individuals (since they were behind the walls, and he was unaware of them).
Hmm. Thanks for pointing this out. I have a Paladin who's constantly detecting evil in the game I run, and used it as a hidden skeleton detector in Crypt of the Everflame. Now he has to be able to see (or at least be aware of) the object or creature. Handy. He's using it as an 'is this NPC ok?' meter in Council of Thieves. It's nice to know it's limited (but since he gets the 'as if 3 rounds' bonus, it balances out).
Also, on the other side of the Detect Evil coin from overwhelming, remember that low-level non-super-aligned (meaning non-undead, non-outsiders, non-clerics, non-paladins, etc.) don't detect as evil as all. So if they meet Joe the 3rd level jerk that enjoys stabbing old folks and puppies for fun, or that plans to pull a lever and drop them into boiling, salty acid, they'll never know he's evil unless they catch him in the act (and then, detect evil will not tell them anything).
As for the OP, I've been victimized by the DM preconception of Paladins before. I wanted, way back in 2 Ed., to play a smart, tactical, archer paladin. She was going to be a soldier for good, not a warrior, and not stupidly charging the big-bad either.
So, fighting goblins, or rather the goblins were fighting someone else and we gained the drop on both of them, I declared I was going to shoot the goblin from behind (who we were hunting for being bad to the local village). I reasoned that as a soldier and a leader, she would use any tactical advantage she could gain when attacking evil. Sort of a brutally good character.
The DM said outright 'a paladin wouldn't do that!' And I explained that if the enemy was evil, proven evil, then every weapon should be brought to bear, including surprise, ambush and trap. I'd offer quarter if it was asked for, but until then, they were wrongs to be righted.
Well this VERY old-school, DM flat out declared that I wouldn't do that (seriously, this was the first encounter with the character). Not really wanting to argue, I simply erased the 'paladin' from the top of the character sheet and wrote in 'fighter' and promptly loaded up on weapon specializations. She was then eaten by ghouls some short time later in the day.
Ah well.
The moral here is to communicate with your DM to make sure the character fits in with the game, as well as to dispel preconceptions on his and your part (or to accommodate them, as I had to do).
Paladins can be jerks (but don't have to be). I once had a very cool concept Rogue/Assassin/Paladin that was an assassin for the church that targeted really bad folks (and turned from Evil).
As for being weak, the two paladins I've had played in my PF games have been astoundingly tough when they whip out the Smite Evil. The current one regularly looks at me in surprise when I explain that he takes things out in one hit, as well as being a veritable tank. Enjoy the character. Personally, I think making his eyes bleed (as long as he doesn't actually damage the character beyond the 'overwhelming' stun) is a cool bit of flavor that I might steal.
The problem with any paladin using Detect Evil all the time is that it has a duration, and would constantly need to be refreshed. Consider: it takes the same amount of time to cast Detect Evil as it does to make an attack.
Would the adventuring party put up with a fighter who, every few minutes, stopped to stab the air? Not just walked around swinging a sword, but actually put the time into the attack as if he was really fighting something? Probably not. Same thing with detect evil - you might use it at need, but you wouldn't just walk around with it on all the time, because you'd have to keep stopping every few minutes to reactivate.
Then there are the social implications. If you sensed evil, you'd have to start concentrating on people to see if they were evil. (I'm imaging a scene where a paladin starts staring at random people, and gets slapped by some well-endowed woman. "Fresh!") Three rounds = 18 seconds. Who is going to put up with you stopping to stare at them for 18 seconds?
Yes he would. He could use it as the spell and he would have detected evil. He could have then checked the guests individually, since he could see them. After concluding that they were not evil, he could have figured out another evil presence was in the room (or at least in range of his spell).
Yep yep. I assume in the dinner, that they would in fact be giving off a moderate aura.
Ah, that's a tidbit. It's an either-or thing (teach me to not read the WHOLE thing).
Well, I guess she goes back to being a hidden skeleton/zombie-sensor/cleric/6th level-plus evil guy detector. C'est la vie.
Still, a good way to mess with their heads :)
The problem with any paladin using Detect Evil all the time is that it has a duration, and would constantly need to be refreshed. Consider: it takes the same amount of time to cast Detect Evil as it does to make an attack.
Would the adventuring party put up with a fighter who, every few minutes, stopped to stab the air? Not just walked around swinging a sword, but actually put the time into the attack as if he was really fighting something? Probably not. Same thing with detect evil - you might use it at need, but you wouldn't just walk around with it on all the time, because you'd have to keep stopping every few minutes to reactivate.
Then there are the social implications. If you sensed evil, you'd have to start concentrating on people to see if they were evil. (I'm imaging a scene where a paladin starts staring at random people, and gets slapped by some well-endowed woman. "Fresh!") Three rounds = 18 seconds. Who is going to put up with you stopping to stare at them for 18 seconds?
Actually, the three second (standard action) casting time isn't too bad, and can be tossed off when the rest of the group is looking around the room/area (especially when the rogue is traphunting). The move action 'quick glance' is even better (and is more likely to be used on a new acquaintance, and doesn't need the 18 seconds).
And I've actually seen characters that were so nervous about invisible attackers that they did stop every few minutes to stab the air...
If you find your DM tiresome and live in the Sacramento area, you can join my game. :^ )
I appreciate the offer, however I'm near Toronto, Canada...:(