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So I had an idea for giving multi-classing a good test run and to see what kind of combinations can and can't work by making people try them.
The basic idea is that you roll a d20 twice, once for each of the two classes you will have, and try to make the combination viable. You must keep both classes within 1 level of each-other at all times until both reach level 3, at which point you can utilize any combination you wish and may also take a prestige class (but you may not take any other base class).
d20:
01 - Alchemist
02 - Barbarian
03 - Bard
04 - Cavalier
05 - Cleric
06 - Druid
07 - Fighter
08 - Inquisitor
09 - Monk
10 - Oracle
11 - Paladin
12 - Ranger
13 - Rogue
14 - Sorcerer
15 - Summoner
16 - Witch
17 - Wizard
18-20 - Roll Again (if you receive this result again, you may choose this class. This cannot let you choose more than one of your classes)
If you receive a result that cannot coexist peacfully (eg Monk + Barbarian) you may reroll the second class you rolled.
For example, I rolled a 9 (for monk) then a 20 (reroll), then a 2 (barbarian). Barbarian is not compatible with monk, so I reroll and receive an 8 (for inquisitor). This character will be a Monk/Inquisitor.
As another example I roll a 16 (witch) then a 14 (sorcerer). These classes can coexist peacefully so those are the ones you get to play.
This idea assumes you start as a level 2 character with 1 level in each of the two classes. It is recommended to do a point-buy with 20+ points to make it possible to get the stats you need to play at least a somewhat effective character.
Part of the point of this idea was to try and get my players to think less in terms of "I'm this class so I do this thing" and more in terms of "this is my character, this is what he does." And this includes the attitude towards the other characters. By disallowing players from discussing their characters on a game-rules level (other than base stats, as those become evident after a short period of adventuring) I'm hoping to improve role-playing slightly.
There are two main problems I could see with this. One, a lot of people don't like random character generation, but that's beside the point. Two, for some of the combinations (Like Monk+Wizard/Sorcerer/Alchemist/etc), you'd have trouble getting a usable set of stats with 25 point buy, meaning some combinations would be various amounts of useless.
Also, they're probably not going to take more than one or two levels of one of their classes, but that's the way multiclassing goes.
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I've addressed those problems in a couple ways:
1) I was going to use a 25 point buy for my particular game. That's 4 stats with a 14, one at 13 and another at 11 if you need to split it. That's not optimal, but you can work with it.
2) If the player couldn't think of a good role-play option after 10-15 minutes, I would discuss it with them in private and (if it really is hard for them) give them a reroll of their choice.
3) No "dipping" can happen as you have to take at least 3 levels of the lower class, and must keep them equal(ish) until level 6 (3 in each). By then you have (hopefully) developed a strategy of some kind that combines the two classes.
My particular player set is pretty open to this kind of thing as many of them like tinkering with new ideas, and that's precisely what this is for. Some player sets may not like this, but by proposing it and seeing if there is at least one player willing to try it and abide by these rules it can still create an interesting experience for the whole party... hopefully.
In that case, I say just let everyone reroll their classes once if they want to, just to keep odd stuff like no-one having healing from happening.
That makes the classes toward the middle of the distribution more likely to show up. That could be used to increase or decrease the likelihood of people rolling particular classes if you wanted.
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So I did the math for the d8 + d10 method and here are the chances of each roll:
2 - 1/80 or 1% or .0125
3 - 2/80 or 2% or .025
4 - 3/80 or 4% or .0375
5 - 4/80 or 5% or .05
6 - 5/80 or 6% or .0625
7 - 6/80 or 8% or .075
8 - 7/80 or 9% or .0875
9 - 8/80 or 10% or .1
10 - 8/80 or 10% or .1
11 - 8/80 or 10% or .1
12 - 7/80 or 9% or .0875
13 - 6/80 or 8% or .075
14 - 5/80 or 6% or .0625
15 - 4/80 or 5% or .05
16 - 3/80 or 4% or .0375
17 - 2/80 or 2% or .025
18 - 1/80 or 1% or .0125
I just rolled a sorcerer/druid. Can I play? ;)
I have one suggestion, which you may or may not like:
If you receive a result that cannot coexist peacfully (eg Monk + Barbarian) you may reroll the second class you rolled.
I'd say drop this. House rule away the alignment restrictions, with the exception of clerics of specific deities, and see what happens. Could be interesting and the thought of an as-yet unplayed combo could really get your players fired up.
Peace,
tfad
+1 on dropping the barbarian/monk problem, because there's nothing in the rules about barbarians losing their abilities due to an alignment change (but you have to start as barbarian, though).
We did something like this once (just one class though). I ended up randomly rolling the Wu Jen. The campaign didn't last very long though.
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I am Davor, and I approve of this message.
Seriously, this sounds like a lot of fun. I mean, you don't even NEED 25 point buy for many of these builds. My best friend and I are running through Legacy of Fire and Curse of the Crimson Throne with 15 point-buy characters, and we're doing just fine.
Heck, his old DM used to make his group use between 10 and 13 point buy.
Really, having a low point-buy isn't as bad as most people think it is. Take the example of... a Monk/Alchemist. What do you NEED? I'd say, decent Int, Decent strength (maybe a 14 in both), and then put the rest where you see fit. Heck, you could probably get away with an array (15 point buy) of:
Str 15
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 13
Cha 8
Yeah, it doesn't have the "all important" 18 starting attribute, but you'd be surprised how little that matters with intelligent playing and good strategy.
*Edit: Actually, I REALLY like this idea. It greatly enhances the usefulness of your Mutagens, and once you've prepared your daily Extracts, you don't need the Int. Mod. to consume them, so you can feel free to give yourself the strength buff Mutagen. Plus, while the bombs are weak, they DO give the monk an option that isn't usually available.
Well, technically the main problem with that build is that it's AC is 12 when it isn't using mutagens, and if he decided to boost Dexterity, then his AC would only be 15, with his AC being 14 with any other mutagen. Of course, this is a slightly smaller problem with the other Int/Cha based classes because they can just cast Mage Armor/take one of the oracle abilities that grants an armor bonus, but you're still trying to get most of your ability scores as high as you can.
Anyway, this game sounds like fun, and I wouldn't mind playing in it.
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I suppose I could drop alignment restriction on barbarian for this (cold rage?).
Also, my players are more used to a rolled stat set with one "rule of boring" call if you end up with something like 4 12s, a 13 and an 11. For some reason this often ends up in the low 20s on a point buy scale.
Since a lot of these combinations will end up very dependent on at least 2 attributes (most likely 3) I went ahead and said 25 to keep it closer to the power scale we're used to playing in. I might try lowering it a bit for another game, though.
Also, this campaign is going to be declared a one-shot for now, with potential to expand if people have fun.
Cavalier-Alchemist!
Huh?
Hmmm...
Alchemist/Bard. I think it won´t get much more versatile than this. Could be a real fun combo.
Stefan
Barbarian/Sorcerer is what I came up with, i'll see what I can come up with :)
,
Half-orc Witch/Inquisitor.
I'mma have to think about this one.
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My Inquisiter Paladin seems so.. plain, so let's try again.
Female Oracle 1/Druid 1 Gnome
Nature Bond
1-50 Animal Companion
51-100 Domain
Druid Domain: 1d8
1 - Air
2 - Animal
3 - Earth
4 - Fire
5 - Plant
6 - Water
7 - Weather
8 - Roll again
Oracle Curse: 1d
1 - Clouded Vision
2 - Deaf
3 - Haunted
4 - Lame
5 - Wasting
6 - Tongues
Oracle Mystery: 1d10
1 - Battle
2 - Bones
3 - Flame
4 - Heavens
5 - Lore
6 - Nature
7 - Stone
8 - Waves
9 - Wind
10 - Roll again
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-> Ranger
-> Inquisitor
-> Re-Roll
-> RE-ROLL...
-> Dwarf
-> Female
Weapons:
-> Melee
-> Martial
-> One-Handed
-> Battleaxe
So... a Female Dwarf Inquisitor/Ranger who specializes in BATTLEAXES...
I'm seeing her as a grudge-bearing type with a penchant for decapitating her victims (whom she will ALWAYS be able to track and locate).
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1d20 -> Ranger
1d20 -> Inquisitor
1d8 -> Re-Roll
1d8 -> RE-ROLL...
1d8 -> Dwarf
1d2 -> FemaleWeapons:
1d2 -> Melee
1d3 -> Martial
1d3 -> One-Handed
1d10 -> BattleaxeSo... a Female Dwarf Inquisitor/Ranger who specializes in BATTLEAXES...
I'm seeing her as a grudge-bearing type with a penchant for decapitating her victims (whom she will ALWAYS be able to track and locate).
That's... actually a scary combination. I'm gonna go ahead and roll a NOT-their-favored-enemy character.
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Cleric Domains: 1d100
1-50 Roll on Table 1
51-100 Roll on Table 2
1 - Air
2 - Animal
3 - Artifice
4 - Chaos
5 - Charm
6 - Community
7 - Darkness
8 - Death
9 - Destruction
10 - Earth
11 - Evil
12 - Fire
13 - Glory
14 - Good
15 - Healing
16 - Knowledge
17 - Law
18 - Liberation
19 - Luck
20 - Madness
1 - Magic
2 - Nobility
3 - Plant
4 - Protection
5 - Repose
6 - Rune
7 - Strength
8 - Sun
9 - Travel
10 - Trickery
11 - War
12 - Water
13 - Weather
14~20 - Roll again
Sorcerer Bloodlines: 1d
1 - Aberrant
2 - Abyssal
3 - Arcane
4 - Celestial
5 - Destined
6 - Draconic
7 - Elemental
8 - Fey
9 - Infernal
10 - Undead
Draconic Sorcerer Dragon Type: 1d10
1 - Black
2 - Blue
3 - Green
4 - Red
5 - White
6 - Brass
7 - Bronze
8 - Copper
9 - Gold
10 - Silver
Elemental Sorcerer Type: 1d4
1 - Air
2 - Earth
3 - Fire
4 - Water
Wizard's Arcane Bond: 1d100
1-50 Item
51-100 Familiar
Wizard Schools: 1d10
1 - Abjuration
2 - Conjuration
3 - Divination
4 - Enchantment
5 - Evocation
6 - Illusion
7 - Necromancy
8 - Transmutation
9 - Unicersalist
10 - Roll Again
Wizard/Sorcerer Familiars: 1d12
1 - Bat
2 - Cat
3 - Hawk
4 - Lizard
5 - Monkey
6 - Owl
7 - Rat
8 - Raven
9 - Viper
10 - Toad
11 - Weasel
12 - Roll Again
A Half-orc Sorcerer/Cleric: I can see it happening. A Half-orc is cast out of (or more likely flees from) his orcish tribe because he is unusual and different (his Abyssal sorc bloodline coming forward on top of him being half-human), and is sought out by the priests or cultists of an archdaemon who wants to make use of his progeny.
Personally, I would favor the Charisma that both classes rely on, and then give equal preference to Wisdom for the cleric spells and either Strength or Constitution.
Constitution and then feats like Tougness, Dodge, and eventually Arcane Armor Training would be the smart thing to do...
But the fun thing to do would be go for Strength to help out with those claws that Abyssal sorcerers get. Most of the evil-related 1st-level domain powers are touch attacks that debuff an opponent, so feats like Arcane Strike or Channel Smite would see lots of use. A fun NPC villain, at the very least.
Why not, I'll give this a shot. Druid/Fighter
Race: Half-Orc
Gender: Male
Domain: Plant
So, a Half-Orc Fighter/Druid. Basically, he speaks for the trees, and they're saying "take an axe to the face".
Her Long Red locks almost looks as if it were on fire, as she holds in her hands a mighty sycthe with a blade that glowes red, leather pants, and a red top, she smiles as she shows her dragon wings then taking into the air to begin her assult.
Female Half Elf Barbarian 3/Sorcerer 6/ Dragon Disciple 9 (Red Dragon)
CG Medium Humaniod
Init +10 Senses low-light vision; Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 32, touch 32, flat-footed 26 (+10 +8 armor, +6 Dex, +7 natural, +1 insight)
hp 230 (11d12 + 6d6+ 138) 266 (while raging)
Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +14
================================================================
Offense
================================================================
Speed: 40 ft. Fly Speed 90 ft.
Melee: Scythe +26/+26/+21/+16 (2d4+16/x4) and +21 (Bite 1d6 +1d6fire +13)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Qualities : Rage 21 Rounds (+4str, +4con +2will save -2 AC), Rage Power: Moment of Clerity, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1, Breath Weapon 2/day (12d6 DC:22), Resistance to Fire 10, Blindsense 30 ft., Imune to magic sleep
================================================================
Statistics
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Str 29, Dex 22, Con 24, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 23
Base Atk: +12; CMB: +21; CMD: +37
Feats: Weapon Focus (Sycthe), Extra Rage, Arcane Strike, Vitial Strike, Craft Arms & Armor, Skill Focus (Fly), Improved Fimiliar, Improved Vitial Strike, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Blind Fight
Skills: +15 Fly, +8 Intimidate, +14 Perception, +5 Spellcraft
Languages: Common, Elven, Dragonic
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Spells
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DC: 16 + Spell Level, Spells per day 6/6/6/6/5/3
0 - Detect Magic, Read Magic, Resistance, Message, Mending, Light, Flare, Detect Posion, Bleed
1st - True Strike, Magic Missle, Identify, Shield, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall, Ray of Enfeeblement, Mage Armor
2nd - Invisibility, Darkness, See Invisibility, Protection from Arrows, Web, Touch of Idiocy, Acid Arrow, Resist Energy
3rd - Fireball, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon (Rod of Extend)*, Dispel Magic, Slow, Fly
4th - Dimension Door, Wall of Fire, Bestow Curse, Black Tentacles, Fear
5th - Teleport, Feeblemind, Cone of Cold, Spell Resistance
6th - Disintergrate, Globe of Invulnerability, Form of the Dragon 1
================================================================
Treasure
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+1 Adamantium Brillent Energy Scythe, Boots of Speed, Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Headband of Mental Prowess +6, Ring of Protection +5, Rod of Metagmagic Extend, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone, Pale Green Ioun Stone, Clear Ioun Stone, +3 Manual of Exercise (already read) Bracers of Armor +8, Psoudodragon Fimilar
ah thanks for pointing that out, missed it
1d20: 9 (Monk)
1d20: 18 (Reroll)
1d20: 19 (Choose - Ah, that's no fun)
1d20: 7 (Fighter)
Fighter/Monk
Pretty iconic combo there.
Bard/Wizard? Hmm.
At least he is a half-elf.
Transmutation school, Hawk familiar.
But Bard/Wizard? I guess it works, but I would scrap a wizard/sorcerer.
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Bard/Wizard? Hmm.
At least he is a half-elf.
Transmutation school, Hawk familiar.
But Bard/Wizard? I guess it works, but I would scrap a wizard/sorcerer.
It works better than you think. Imagine the bonus to Knowledge rolls you can have! The wands you'll be able to use, the staffs! The large amount of skills at your disposal!
Now I want this to turn into an actual game...
Bard/Wizard? Hmm.
At least he is a half-elf.
Transmutation school, Hawk familiar.
But Bard/Wizard? I guess it works, but I would scrap a wizard/sorcerer.
It works better than you think. Imagine the bonus to Knowledge rolls you can have! The wands you'll be able to use, the staffs! The large amount of skills at your disposal!
Now I want this to turn into an actual game...
Only works if you allow multiclassing feats. My DM allows multiclassing feats where 1/2 of your levels in the first class count towards spellcasting in the other, and vice versa. He doesn't allow any none core material and penalizes dipping. Here's a Wiz/Sorc at 11th level.
*Also note this character makes use of increased base ability scores and a more generous advancement to ability scores through level ups because our campaign does not use ability increasing items.
Kyle Drake "Blackhands"
Male Human
Sorcerer6/Wizard5
CN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Senses Perception +17 (+23 with familiar), darkvision
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Hand Cant, Infernal, Orcish, Termanan
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AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 20
(+2 deflection, +4 Dex, +1 insight, +4 mage armor, +3 natural)
CMD 25
hp 100 (11d6 + 54 + 6)
Immune harmful vapors and gases
Resist acid 5, endure elements
Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +15
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Speed 30ft.
Melee +9 masterwork knife (1d4+3)
Melee +8/+8 claws (1d4+3)
Ranged +9 touch (by spell)
Base Atk +5; CMB +8
Attack Options Point Blank Shot
Special Actions Dazing Touch (1 round, 5 HD)
Combat Gear acid x3*, alchemist fire x3*, antitoxin x6, dagger of metamagic empower, dagger of metamagic silent, elixir of vision x5, flash frost x3*, potion of cure light wounds x4, potion of cure serious wounds x2, potion of fly x2, rod of metamagic extend, scroll of arcane lock, scroll of daylight, scroll of dimensional anchor, scroll of magic circle against evil, scroll of wind wall, smokestick x3, thunderstone* x6, tindertwigs x20, wand of glitterdust (50 charges)
*In Bag of Holding
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Sorcerer Spells Known (Caster Level 11th, +13 vs. Spell Resistance)
4th (6/day)-dimension door, enervation
3rd (7/day)-acidball (DC 18), beast shape I, dispel magic
2nd (7/day)-acid darts, invisibility, knock, minor image, resist energy
1st (8[color=#BF0000]-2[/color]/day)-comprehend languages, endure elements, feather fall, mage armor, magic missile, shield
0th (At will)-acid splash, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, light, mage hand, mending, prestidigitation
Enchanter Spells Prepared (Caster level 11th, +13 vs. spell resistance, Prohibited Schools Abjuration & Illusion)
4th (5+1/day)-arcane eye, beast shape II, charm monster (DC 21), resilient sphere (DC 20), suggestion (DC 20), wall of fire (DC 20) +2
3rd (4+1/day)-deep slumber (DC 20), haste x2, sleet storm, suggestion (DC 20)
2nd (5+1/day)-darkness, [color=#BF0000]darkvision[/color], detect thoughts (DC 18), eagle's splendor, false life, touch of idiocy (DC 19)
1st (6+1)-charm person x2 (DC 18), identify, ray of enfeeblement x2 (DC 17), summon monster I
0th (At will)-arcane mark, dancing lights, message, read magic
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Abilities Str 17 Dex 18, Con 18, Int 22, Wis 17, Cha 20
SQ Arcane Bond (Viper), Draconic Bloodline (Black), Enchanting Smile
Feats Eldritch Artisan, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Penetration, Still Spell
Skills Acrobatics +10, Appraise +10, Bluff +27, Climb +8, Craft (alchemy) +10, Craft (carpentry) +10, Craft (traps) +10, Diplomacy +21, Handle Animal +7, Heal +8, Intimidate +14, Knowledge (arcane) +20, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Knowledge (geography) +10, Knowledge (history) +13, Knowledge (local) +10, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (the planes) +15, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +17, Profession (sailor) +14, Sense Motive +10 (+16 with familiar), Sleight of Hand +6, Spellcraft +20, Swim +15, Use Magic Device +12
Possessions amulet of natural armor +2, boots of elvenkind, bracers of swimming and climbing, crystal ball*, dusty rose ioun stone, earring of protection +2, headscarf of persuasion, ring of adaption, ring of sustenance, vest of resistance +3, black powder* (horn), bottle of blood*, bottle of rum*, candles* (black) x7, candles* (white) x7, cold iron knife, compass, courtier's outfit x2, drow poison* x3, empty vials x10, fuse cord 8ft.*, grooming kit*, healers kit*, ink vial* x4, malyass root paste* x1, masterwork potion belt x2, mini-crossbow x3*, mini-bolts x10*, notebooks* x3 (empty), pouch of cayenne pepper*, rope 20ft.*, sailing charts*, scroll case x3** Sea Wyvern's log*, signet ring, silver knife, spellbook* (ivory), trap making kit*, waterproof book covers* x5, whetstone*, wooden knife, 490 gold pieces, 40 silver pieces, 100 copper pieces, emeralds* x5 (100gp each).
*In Bag of Holding
Spellbook 4th - animate dead, arcane eye, beast shape II, charm monster, confusion, dimension door, geas lesser, minor creation, remove curse, resilient sphere, wall of fire; 3rd - beast shape I, dayight, deep slumber, fireball, fly, haste, heroism, hold person, phantom steed, sepia snake sigil, sleet storm, suggestion; 2nd - alter self, arcane lock, bear's endurance, darkness, darkvision, detect thoughts, eagle's splender, false life, knock, see invisibility, shatter, spider climb, touch of idiocy, web; 1st - alarm, charm person, enlarge person, floating disk, identify, magic weapon, ray of enfeeblement, summon monster I, unseen servant (~2,000gp in scribing costs)
Spell Tattoos 4th - dimension door ; 3rd - beast shape I ; 2nd - knock
Active Spells Save for his resting hours Kyle keeps the following spells active: mage armor, darkvision, endure elements. He typically recasts them early in the morning, perhaps two hours after waking up.
This seems really cool!!
damn repeat
Fighter/Inquistitor
Race: and again
argh!
Human
Female
weapons:
Melee
Exotic
one handed
Dwarven Waraxe
Sally's friend betty the dwarf was killed by goblins last year. She now uses betty's axe to kill anything that remotely resembles a goblin!! RARGH!!!
Awesome idea - I would love this in our group, but then I love odd combos. BTW monk and barbarian would work actually - monk needs to take the martial artist archetype. I have made this character, and he was icky. Plus he was half-orc to boot. "Crack knuckles - make bleed!" (Screams begin.)
I know -way- later to post this, but only just found the discussion.
I rolled a male Halfling Oracle (lame/lore)/Witch (rat). Not the most efficient combination but it could be fun. :)
One point I would make is that Humans should be more common and half-orcs/elves should be less common. Having the total number of half-elves equal to the number of humans or elves doesn't really make sense.