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Since second edition D&D it was stated that the female is every bit as equal to her male counter-part and can fulfill in any role in society, from the sword fighter to a spell blasting wizard. Moving on since it is a high fantasy escapist world you can have whatever you want. societies that range from the chauvinistic and to a harsh militant amazon man hating society. Golarion from my observations has everything mixed in there. You have Taldor which has a typical chauvinistic view and then you have the Kellish which is a more matriarchical society. Then you got the grand melting pot of all Absalom.
Not sure what you mean there. Chauvinism means extreme patriotism. It has nothing to do with gender views. Females, like the "Amazons", can be chauvinistic. In fact, the Amazons are.
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I wouldn't want anyone to do that to me either.
You know exactly what I mean't by my comment.EDIT Do to others what you would have them do to you.
Again, you're STILL not getting it.
Bob likes telling off-color jokes.
Bob likes to hear off-color jokes.
Mary doesn't like off-color jokes.
She doesn't like hearing off-color jokes.
According to "do unto others what you would have them do to you," it's okay for Bob to tell Mary off-color jokes because Bob wants Mary to tell him off-color jokes. Except Mary doesn't like them, and is offended by them.It shouldn't be "do unto others as you would have them treat you."
It should be "do unto others as they want to be treated."
I agree with you in theory, however in practice this is almost as destructive as it is helpful. The zero-tolerance policy that has been set in place allows unscrupulous people (more often women than men) to use this policy to their advantage when they feel slighted. Couple this with the "guilty until proven innocent" attitude that companies have been forced to adopt due to our overly litigious society and you have the perfect environment for abuse of a well intentioned policy.
I have seen many promising careers ruined due to exaggerated or downright false sexual harrassment claims.
I'm not sure if the OP's rant is supposed to be anti-femenism, anti-4E, or both. In any case I doubt this is the right forum for it.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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And as I had said previously...I have no doubt that it changed since i had last been in an english classroom...I was in no way saying it was still common practice...seemed that i was fairly unambiguous about that but meh.
I don't think there has been any confusion. You've been clear.
I'm just chiming in because when we talk about changes in language, we should take into account that a wonderful thing about language is that it does change to reflect some of the concerns of the society that use it. Some people argue against specific changes in language by pointing to traditions but their traditions are often fairly recent from a historical perspective.
Second. I fail to see the huge need for a big push to get women into gameing. Maybe you guys higher up in the industry have access to data we down here in the trenches dont but at my tables and eveywhere else we go to game women are a huge part of gameing.
Your experience is atypical. RPGs are still a male-dominated hobby; go to Gen Con and the population is still probably 75% male, if not higher. Not as bad as it used to be, but still very male-skewed.
I am not against inclusive language in most instances I am simply against improper grammer as a means of political expression.
(1) Who's to say that using the *masculine* word "he" for women as well as men is proper?
(2) How is alternating gender pronouns according to the iconic character being discussed improper?I understand you were being comical in useing the example of an old white guy(mental image of gandolf) as the deciding body of the english language
I wasn't being comical. Much of what is "official" for English grammar was decided by one guy hundreds of years ago, and he made those decisions based partly on his personal preferences and partly because he wanted English grammar to work like Latin grammar, even though English is German-derived rather than Latin-derived. So yes, it was an old white guy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_grammar#History_of_English_grammar_wri ting
The first English grammar, Pamphlet for Grammar by William Bullokar , written with the ostensible goal of demonstrating that English was just as rule-bound as Latin , was published in 1586. Bullokar’s grammar was faithfully modeled on William Lily ’s Latin grammar, Rudimenta Grammatices (1534), which was being used in schools in England at that time, having been “prescribed” for them in 1542 by Henry VIII . Although Bullokar wrote his grammar in English and used a “reformed spelling system” of his own invention, many English grammars, for much of the century after Bullokar’s effort, were written in Latin, especially by authors who were aiming to be scholarly.
See also 50 Years of Stupid Grammar Advice.
however it was society as a whole that decided it
English is a living language. Nobody got together and voted on how English grammar should work; some people made a decision and started teaching that as if it were correct and the only option.
Languages change. When I was growing up, "goes" and "like" became synonymous for "says," as inThen he goes, "I'm gonna punch you in the mouth if you don't shut up!" And I was like, "Whatever, man, the safest place for me to be is where you're aiming."
Those usages of those words didn't exist before the 70s. Likewise, "cool" in its modern, non-temperature sense, derived largely from black jazz culture in the 1940s. The word "conversation" now means to talk with someone, but it used to mean "to study" (as in, "he's having a conversation with the encyclopedia"), and before that it meant "to have sexual intercourse with.
So even if society got together 400 years ago and agreed that "he" is gender-neutral, that's not the case now. After all, I'm sure there are several words I could mention that were perfectly acceptable a few decades ago but now are obviously considered racist.
and trying to force a change rather than allowing it to happen over the course of it's evolutionary cycle is doomed to fail.
You mean, an evolutionary cycle like a large number of people saying for the past 10 years, "perhaps the word 'he' isn't as gender-neutral as old white men have been claiming it is'?"
I am curious as to one word in your response, I am unsure of the word wimmenfolk. Was that a deliberate misspelling or a new form that I am unaware of. I have seen the word womban in use for political/social protest but have not seem wimmenfolk in common use, please explain.
Not sure what you mean there. Chauvinism means extreme patriotism. It has nothing to do with gender views. Females, like the "Amazons", can be chauvinistic. In fact, the Amazons are.
Aside from the patriotism but strongly related, it also applies to a partisanship for one's own group, not just country. Thus you get male chauvanism describing the variety of chauvanism centered around gender differences, promoting the superiority of the male.
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Personally I reject the idea of feminism being the reason why Half-Orc (rape) were left out of the Player's Handbook.
What I do suspect is that Hasbro doesn't really want to have something in thier game lines that refers to sex, more specifically rape.
Hasbro is a publicly traded company that makes games and toys. They really don't want a religious/family group calling for a boycott before/during Christmas Holiday against it's other lines because D&D is trying to keep to sword and sorcery tropes.
I honestly don't thin Feminism even shows much as a blip on Hasbro's radar. period. The just take a look the products that they sell and they don't really seem all that differant that what you had in the 50's. They still keep making dolls and the like. i don't really see any product of thier's trying to push and agenda other that what any other toy company tries. If there is an agenda really, it buy more of our stuff.
WOTC on the other hand, well I would expect that they try and level the playing field a little bit make the fantasy adventures less male oriented. But lets look at the whole field of SCI-FI-Fantasy. There are plenty of balance between male and female protagonists.
As far as writing guide styles, I've been seeing this stuff from over 25 years ago. It's in pleanty of things including technical writing and is now a staple in corporite envirionmnets. It's her to stay. head down to you HR department if you don't think so and let them show you. It's a mix of he or she right down the middle.
And it's not like this is new in the gaming industry. White Wolf pretty much lead the way on this through the 90's. (I'm sure that Lisa Stevens can back me up on this.) And that's when they were in thier heyday.
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Aside from the patriotism but strongly related, it also applies to a partisanship for one's own group, not just country. Thus you get male chauvanism describing the variety of chauvanism centered around gender differences, promoting the superiority of the male.
Not sure what you mean there. Chauvinism means extreme patriotism. It has nothing to do with gender views. Females, like the "Amazons", can be chauvinistic. In fact, the Amazons are.
True(ish). Chauvenism does literelly mean nationality, though it can (somewhat incorrectly) mean other things, (when other things are applied, such as male/female). But the post was saying "Taldor is Chauvenistic", (not male chauvenistic), which means Taldor has a lot of national pride as oppossed to female led countries like Amazons, (which being contrasted, would than not have national pride).
I guess the point I was questioning is because "male chauvinist dog" makes a lotof pople think that chauvinist has a different and worse conotation that it does. Chauvinism isn't necessarily a bad thing.
It shouldn't be "do unto others as you would have them treat you."
It should be "do unto others as they want to be treated."
Cool I'd like a copy of all Paizo's publications. Now I know you'd like to be paid for that, unfortunately right now I just don't have the cash. But we'll never get anywhere with this idea of yours of doing what other people want unless someone gets the ball rolling...
(Sorry Sean I'm just being a jack*ss here.)
Anyways I think the point is actually that all people in our society are entitled to a minimum level of respect in certain situations. The issue however is that that minimum level of respect is constantly in flux. Historically if a guy didn't want to hear off-color jokes that a male coworker insisted on telling he didn't have any recourse either. It wasn't until it was turned into an extension of sexism that it was recognized as harrasment.
Now taking a step back further from this, I've always looked on gaming as a leisure time activity and escapism. I'm not so sure that bringing a discussion of politics or feminism (or most -isms) into a metagame disccusion adds to that. The intent is to have fun, not to determine if we've offended a special interest group.
Perhaps it's nice to have a rulebook that doesn't talk about rape--and thus press an alarm button on all women reading it?
Why would the word "rape" only press an alarm button for women? A lot of males have been victims of sexual assault and abuse. Indeed, the myth that rape is only a woman's concern is very damaging to the rehabilitation of these males.
Certainly more sexual violence against women is reported than against men--statistics all over the place show that clearly--but it is not by any means a single-gender issue.
Not attacking you Sean--indeed, I really appreciate a lot of what you've said in this thread--just wanted to point that out.
And it's one of the reasons why the OP's statement about the removal of rape references in D&D to purportedly mollify women completely baffles me.
The OP's statement is also confounding because feminists--that is to say, people of either gender who support civil rights for women and awareness of issues that especially affect women--generally work extremely hard to bring about awareness of rape, sexual assault, and sexual abuse. It is in fact antifeminist and anti-a-lot-of-other-things to bury things like rape under the carpet.
I believe the toning down of rape references was to make the game child-friendly, not woman-friendly per se.
"Feminism is the absurd concept that women should have the same rights as men." --I can't remember
Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. ~Cheris Kramarae and Paula Treichler
To thread in general:
That's the definition that I and most feminists with genuine intentions--men and women alike--work with.
A very scant few extremist women's rights activists and very many anti-women-right's activists use alternative meanings that imply, "Women who think they are better than men." That's a very damaging concept, perpetuated by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, who coined the phrase, "feminazi." If persons want to align themselves with someone like him, be my guest, but I will for one will never believe they support civil rights and civil treatment for women, no matter how much they claim they do.
Regarding political correctness: Once upon a time, the "PC" movement did go too far.
But the original intent was to simply be sure that people spoke to each other respectfully, and became aware of how even common idioms can become hurtful to others.
I think all we can ask of game publishers and ANY publisher is to simply try to be respectful as they can be to their consumers and potential consumers. Not to "be PC" but just to be as inclusive and open in their writing as can be reasonably expected.
Regarding gender pronouns: I have a Master's Degree in English and years of experience in proofreading and editing. I can vouch for the fact that gendered pronouns are discouraged where possible, and that "he" is no longer acceptable as the sole norm (though some guides suggest that if you need to use one, either stick with one and be consistent with it, or alternate every paragraph). It's been this way for at least nearly 20 years. You can pretend otherwise, but the published evidence is against you, repeatedly. Sorry.
What's so very threatening about the word "she" anyway?
Paizo's alternation of the pronouns make sense since they often coordinate with the genders of the iconics. That's a consistent and clear reason/
"Feminism" in Gaming:
I have seen the influence of feminism in gaming. That women are depicted in heroic roles more often, increasingly and dramatically over the last 20 years. That while certainly sexy women are depicted, so are sexy men, and seldom these days in notably demeaning positions. That more and more women are becoming gamers, and are starting (sadly in some places, only just starting) to feel welcome as a gamer. This is what "feminism" has brought to D&D and gaming.
Any of you have a problem with that?
A very scant few extremist women's rights activists and very many anti-women-right's activists use alternative meanings that imply, "Women who think they are better than men." That's a very damaging concept, perpetuated by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, who coined the phrase, "feminazi."
On the other hand only a feminist could get away with suggesting that eliminating 90% of men would dramatically improve the world. Such talk would be tolerated for no other ethic or gender group. To suggest that the extremists among feminist groups don't have a disporportionate pull either mean you've been fooled yourself, or you're trying to snow people who aren't familiar with how bad feminism can get. Organizations that fight repression don't appear in a vacuum and there's a reason that more and more men's rights organizations are appearing and becoming mainstream.
(If you're interested in more information I'd highly recommend you check out the Glenn Sacks website, or read up on Warren Farrell.)
Thank You for a very eye opening post DQ.
Regarding gender pronouns: I have a Master's Degree in English and years of experience in proofreading and editing. I can vouch for the fact that gendered pronouns are discouraged where possible, and that "he" is no longer acceptable as the sole norm (though some guides suggest that if you need to use one, either stick with one and be consistent with it, or alternate every paragraph). It's been this way for at least nearly 20 years. You can pretend otherwise, but the published evidence is against you, repeatedly. Sorry.
What's so very threatening about the word "she" anyway?
Paizo's alternation of the pronouns make sense since they often coordinate with the genders of the iconics. That's a consistent and clear reason/
I was personaly unaware of the changes in the use of gendered pronouns and will bow to your superior knowledge in this matter. My feild of study is computers not english.
I do find Pazio's use of gender pronouns for the iconic charecters laudable and correct. My earlier position had nothing to do with that, I was refering to what I believed to be incorrect grammer but I now stand corrected.
As far as sexism thats a whole diffrent issue.
That while certainly sexy women are depicted, so are sexy men, and seldom these days in notably demeaning positions.
I have been gaeming for well over 20+ yrs and can't remember women in demeaning positions. I can remember scantily clad women in armor or weilding weapons or sneaking here or there but I also remember the men in just loin cloths looking like they had just come from a steroid convention and fell in a vate of babby oil.
Sexism WAS rampant in earlier editions but now I think the knee jerk reaction is a bit much.
Just as a disclaimer NO sarcasm was intended or implied towards anyone I responded to. Inflection doesn't translate over the written word so I like to be sure and avoid snarkiness.
The interesting thing about this conversation is that it has been majority if not all male (It is difficult to tell as many male posters use female avatars).
I am wondering why we have not had our fellow female gamers not comment. My only theory is that there is a perceived or perceivable undercurrent of hostility (unintended) in this thread.
EDIT: DQ Ninja'ed me. On the above.
I have no problem with using the feminine or masculine in writing, I also want more female gamers in the hobby because they bring something different to the game (not better but different) which combined with my fellow male gamers makes for a richer gaming experience.
My question to SKR or Lisa (A great role model for female (and male) gamers) is what else can we do to bring in more women to the game.
I find SKRs example of the off colour jokes a little simplistic as I experienced the reverse. As until recently I worked in jobs where the staff were 80% female. Being in customer service I was tied to my desk and unable to walk away - I could not talk to my immediate superior as she was one of those talking about things that made me uncomfortable and her superior was her best friend. For the first 6 months I was isolated and not spoken to at lunch by the majority of staff because I was male. I was actually told after about 6 months that I was an honorary female and included in conversations. I really liked most of the people I worked with and my boss who talked about stuff I thought inappropriate was a great boss in all other aspects. She was interested in helping me, she recommended me for promotions she gave me more responsibility and put me in charge when she was away. I have never worked in a majority male situation except on a building site during the break for Uni and we were all too busy to stop and talk. At lunch the conversation was about the Cricket or Rugby.
I wouldn't want anyone to do that to me either.
You know exactly what I mean't by my comment.EDIT Do to others what you would have them do to you.
Again, you're STILL not getting it.
Bob likes telling off-color jokes.
Bob likes to hear off-color jokes.
Mary doesn't like off-color jokes.
She doesn't like hearing off-color jokes.
According to "do unto others what you would have them do to you," it's okay for Bob to tell Mary off-color jokes because Bob wants Mary to tell him off-color jokes. Except Mary doesn't like them, and is offended by them.It shouldn't be "do unto others as you would have them treat you."
It should be "do unto others as they want to be treated."
Actually, I'd quote Rabban Hillel, who said it more succinctly:
"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn" (Shab. 31a).
The irony is that it was attributed to someone else who has gotten more credit for it over the years. /soapbox
On the other hand only a feminist could get away with suggesting that eliminating 90% of men would dramatically improve the world.
I disagree. No one, regardless of what they label themselves (and falsely, in my opinion, in this instance), should or could get away with such hateful language.
And obviously they haven't gotten away with it, or you wouldn't--nor the people before you, I imagine--have called it out.
Any group working for equal rights, be they feminists or racial civil rights activists or LGBTQ rights activists or what have you, are undermined by people who use such extremist and obviously vitriolic language. The point is to bring people together, not divide people. The point, again, is to be respectful.
As a feminist, I'd certainly distance myself and do everything I could to "liberate" the term "feminist" from such a hateful notion.
Thank You for a very eye opening post DQ.
Snipped for length, but thanks for your response. I hope it was helpful.
I have been gaeming for well over 20+ yrs and can't remember women in demeaning positions. I can remember scantily clad women in armor or weilding weapons or sneaking here or there but I also remember the men in just loin cloths looking like they had just come from a steroid convention and fell in a vate of babby oil.
Sexism WAS rampant in earlier editions but now I think the knee jerk reaction is a bit much.
I do recall some old gaming materials that depicted the majority of PCs as male, and that women were not JUST scantily clad but depicted as victims to be rescued, sometimes bound up in provocative positions. I don't have access to the materials at hand to provide citations, for which I apologize, but I remember seeing them as a budding girl-gamer at the age of 12 and wondering if truly this was something meant for me or something I wanted to associate myself with.
You may not have noticed because those images would not speak to you or be noticeable to you in the way they would be to an impressionable preteen girl. No offense intended of course--I'm just saying I doubt my experiences could match yours and vice versa.
I have noticed a dramatically positive trend in the way women are depicted in gaming literature. That's all I'm saying.
8th Dwarf: For the record, I'm a woman, but I don't claim to speak for all women. :)
8th Dwarf: For the record, I'm a woman, but I don't claim to speak for all women. :)
Ninja'ed :-) my 2 year old daughter was helping me type so It took me 20 mins to write what what I wanted to say.
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On the other hand only a feminist could get away with suggesting that eliminating 90% of men would dramatically improve the world.I disagree. No one, regardless of what they label themselves (and falsely, in my opinion, in this instance), should or could get away with such hateful language.
And obviously they haven't gotten away with it, or you wouldn't--nor the people before you, I imagine--have called it out.
Any group working for equal rights, be they feminists or racial civil rights activists or LGBTQ rights activists or what have you, are undermined by people who use such extremist and obviously vitriolic language. The point is to bring people together, not divide people. The point, again, is to be respectful.
As a feminist, I'd certainly distance myself and do everything I could to "liberate" the term "feminist" from such a hateful notion.
Thank You for a very eye opening post DQ.Snipped for length, but thanks for your response. I hope it was helpful.
I have been gaeming for well over 20+ yrs and can't remember women in demeaning positions. I can remember scantily clad women in armor or weilding weapons or sneaking here or there but I also remember the men in just loin cloths looking like they had just come from a steroid convention and fell in a vate of babby oil.
Sexism WAS rampant in earlier editions but now I think the knee jerk reaction is a bit much.I do recall some old gaming materials that depicted the majority of PCs as male, and that women were not JUST scantily clad but depicted as victims to be rescued, sometimes bound up in provocative positions. I don't have access to the materials at hand to provide citations, for which I apologize, but I remember seeing them as a budding girl-gamer at the age of 12 and wondering if truly this was something meant for me or something I wanted to associate myself with.
You may not have noticed because those images would not speak to you or be...
+1 here, here.
On the other hand only a feminist could get away with suggesting that eliminating 90% of men would dramatically improve the world.I disagree. No one, regardless of what they label themselves (and falsely, in my opinion, in this instance), should or could get away with such hateful language.
Yet you can't deny that womyn like Dworkin, Mary Daly, Simone d'Beauvoir and their ilk deeply impacted the feminist movement, and yet does NOW condemn them? Not so much.
And obviously they haven't gotten away with it, or you wouldn't--nor the people before you, I imagine--have called it out.
Are you suggesting that the act of mentioning it on a message board is enough to address the damage that things like Title IX and VAWA have done to men? How about the feminist stances on things like false rape and false abuse accusations or Duluth model of violence in which women cannot be aggressors, only victims. The problem with feminism is that the moderates (who's goals most people agree with) are being ran by the extremeists.
The point is to bring people together, not divide people. The point, again, is to be respectful.
No offense intended, but when one takes a measured objective look at what womyn calling themselves feminists have done, there is little that benefits men as a whole from their works. You may believe what you preach but you're standing in a very dark shadow cast by women who call themselves feminists even if you don't know it.
Go read up the story of Erin Pizzey if you're not familiar with it. It should be illuminating.
As a feminist, I'd certainly distance myself and do everything I could to "liberate" the term "feminist" from such a hateful notion.
In that case divorce yourself from the term feminist since by it's very etyomology isn't about egality or even equality. There's a reason the earlist feminists didn't go with a term like egalitarianist or equalist.
On the other hand only a feminist could get away with suggesting that eliminating 90% of men would dramatically improve the world. Such talk would be tolerated for no other ethic or gender group. To suggest that the extremists among feminist groups don't have a disporportionate pull either mean you've been fooled yourself, or you're trying to snow people who aren't familiar with how bad feminism can get. Organizations that fight repression don't appear in a vacuum and there's a reason that more and more men's rights organizations are appearing and becoming mainstream.
Unfortunately, the appearance of competing groups is not evidence that a particular political program has achieved dominance. They can just as easily be backlash groups like the KKK or Inquisition intending to force the social change genie back in the bottle.
Note: I'm not equating men's rights groups with the KKK, just that their presence need not reflect any real oppression because they could easily represent a counter-reform backlash instead. Evidence that feminism has somehow become a dominant, even oppressive, discourse requires far more than that.
Times were different back then. Here is a question considering who the target market group was back then. Do you think Dungeons and Dragons would have been so succesful back in the eighties if they didnt market some provocative female artwork?
I think so, yes. I can only speak for myself but when I received the AD&D Player's Handbook when I was 8, I was definitely too young to be looking for 'sexual' artwork. Even as I grew to a teen adventuring was never about sex.
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{Why would the word "rape" only press an alarm button for women? A lot of males have been victims of sexual assault and abuse. Indeed, the myth that rape is only a woman's concern is very damaging to the rehabilitation of these males.}
I've had several women friends and one male friend who's been raped; I'm aware of the statistics. However, most men are pretty casual about the word "rape" (until it happens to someone they know), to the extent that I basically quit playing WOW because that word became common usage for "kill" and I didn't want to see it in every conversation. So rape is still more of an alarm-button word for women than it is for most men, mainly because most men don't worry about it happening to them unless they're in prison.
{Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. ~Cheris Kramarae and Paula Treichler}
Thank you, I think that's the quote I was trying to remember, I used to have it saved on my home comp but all I could find in a search this morning were the annoying Limbaugh and O'Reilly quotes.
{My question to SKR or Lisa (A great role model for female (and male) gamers) is what else can we do to bring in more women to the game.}
As a publisher: Continuing to provide positive strong female roles in our products certainly helps, and avoiding relegating women to inferior positions where their only acceptable roles are breeders, prisoners, and victims.
As a gamer: Invite women to try playing, and when you do so don't make them uncomfortable personally or by their role in the game. For the first point, an example: a friend's teenage daughter had to leave her otherwise-male gaming group because they told her (1) tight clothes were too sexy and therefore distracting, (2) loose, baggy clothes clothes were too much like pajamas and therefore were too sexy and distracting. For the second point, having a female player's character put into a situation where she's forced or expected to have sex is probably going to convince her to never come back. Likewise, crude sexual humor at the table with a new female player is probably a discouragement. Can't people just be civil to each other? I know gamers tend to be socially marginalized and may have problems relating to the opposite sex, but even an idiot should know that drooling and leering isn't appropriate if you want someone to feel comfortable around you.
{I find SKRs example of the off colour jokes a little simplistic as I experienced the reverse.}
Your reverse-experience doesn't negate the fact of what I'm saying; the genders in my example are irrelevant, only the fact that one person's behavior is unacceptable to the other.
{ I could not talk to my immediate superior as she was one of those talking about things that made me uncomfortable and her superior was her best friend.}
I don't know where you live, but in many states you go to the manager, and if nothing gets done, you contact someone outside the company.
{I have been gaeming for well over 20+ yrs and can't remember women in demeaning positions.}
Like one prominent d20 publisher whose entire line of products had busty, near-naked women on the covers, whether vikings, pirates, or whatever? Like one prominent d20 publisher who published a "joke" book called the Slayer's Guide to Females?
{Here is a question considering who the target market group was back then. Do you think Dungeons and Dragons would have been so succesful back in the eighties if they didnt market some provocative female artwork?}
Considering that I started playing D&D before I discovered that I liked girls, yes, I do think D&D would have been as successful without cheesecake art.
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When I play D&D, I do it to hang out with friends and participate in a hobby I enjoy. I enjoy the stories, the math, social interaction, the problem solving and building and developing characters from both a mechanical and non-mechanical perspective. The last thing I want to deal with is real world issues in my gaming. I'm sure others enjoy it - there's a lot to roleplaying games, and room for plenty of different people and the different types of games they enjoy. But it's not what I look for in a game.
I'm playing a hero, darn it, and I don't want to be told my hero can't be a fighter because I prefer playing characters that are female, as I am. I don't want to feel like the art is telling me that my role is to be pretty and get rescued be used by the rescuing hero, then either discarded or married and left behind while the heroic adventures continue without me.
The good new is, I don't have to deal with that in D&D or Pathfinder (I started playing the month 3.5 was released) by default. Some groups try to enforce that sort of play - and I have the option to not participate in those groups. The only time it's really a problem is when that sort of thing is sprung on me after the fact, or in the middle of a game/session. Some cultures in both games have such societal norms - that as a player you can choose to deal with or not. I can understand the appeal of a game where your characters fight off the oppression of whatever group they belong to - I just generally prefer something a little less close to home - I want to escape.
Sometimes I get annoyed at the art. Or annoyed when a module has nearly no women NPCs. But really that's almost always because we're playing something that was written 15-30 years ago.
I don't know if feminism has changed the game...there's so many conflicting ideas and ideologies wrapped up in that term. I'm all for the equal rights, equal pay for equal work stuff. But then you run into someone that's off the wall - and you want to step back from the term. I do think that a clearer understanding of market forces, a desire to wade into the untapped market of women and a realization that marketting to men doesn't have to go out of the way to exclude or insult women have all contributed to a change in the culture of RPGs.
Note: I'm not equating men's rights groups with the KKK, just that their presence need not reflect any real oppression because they could easily represent a counter-reform backlash instead.
Fair point.
Evidence that feminism has somehow become a dominant, even oppressive, discourse requires far more than that.
It's out there. Like I said before, hit up the Glenn Sacks website for an intro if you're interersted. If not no worries.
Really? Because during the progressive era, feminists were also active supporters of abolishing slavery, the civil rights movement, prison reform, and child welfare. So if you're black, have ever been to prison, or were ever a child, I would say that the feminist movement has indeed benefited you.
No offense intended, but when one takes a measured objective look at what womyn calling themselves feminists have done, there is little that benefits men as a whole from their works.
The suffragettes weren't called feminists until retroactively in the 1970's. An interesting question would be whether the suffragettes would have allowed themselves to be called feminists had they any choice in the matter.
See also 50 Years of Stupid Grammar Advice.
That was really enjoyed by me. I don't have a Master's Degree in English, but I taught it to Thai students for 5 years and was constantly hand-waving the ridiculous contortions that (or which, your choice) formal English grammar puts the English speaker/writer through. "Teacher, why?" they'd ask. "It's English," I'd shrug.
Speaking to the gendered pronoun issue: I identify as a Marxist, and therefore a feminist as well, and I'd like to say that while using "she" or "they" or alternating genders in a body of text can and often does sound contrived and PC, it shouldn't. That's just the indoctrination of a culture of (not just) sexual inequality. Fight through it, stalwart gamers. Throw off the shackles of cultural and sexual imperialism!
Seriously, though, many/most of us (males) got into D&D at a much younger age, and sexy chicks on the front of books were a draw. I think the demographic has shifted a bit since the 80s and 90s, and it's ok to look at the situation through new, hopefully more mature eyes.
Zo
P.S. My wife is looking over my shoulder as I'm typing, and she adds: "It's not LIFE, nerds!" :)
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I have no doubt that it has changed (again it was 10 years ago that I was learning this stuff), my question is why? 'He' was the default pronoun for simplicity's sake, not to be mysognistic. But all of a sudden people take offense to it and now we have to switch back and forth between pronoun when writing anything where a gender isn't required? We have to restructure sentences to make sure the pronoun we use is plural? PC will be the death of society (after organized religion) lol.
Thousands of years ago, tribesmen would symbolically place all the sins of their village upon a goat and drive it out of the village (or even kill it). These days, there are still people who do similar things with chickens, using them to 'soak up evil' and then ritually killing them to get rid of the evil.
It doesn't really matter that these people don't bear any specific loathing for goats, it still sucks for the goat.
Similarly, it doesn't matter whether or not the average male English speaker doesn't 'mean anything by it' when he uses 'he' to include women, because of 'tradition' (a 'tradition' handed down by men who considered women property of their husbands, and unsuited to owning property, having basic rights or being able to vote), so long as it bothers the women, who *do* have the right to vote these days.
Using the male pronoun as a default is not just insulting, but bass-ackwards, as it suggests that the male condition somehow includes the female condition as a subset, when, biologically, it's the opposite, with the female XX being the default state, and the male XY being a modification of that default state.
Some feminists are annoying, and seem to want to not just be equal to men, but to be treated *better* then men, as if they need to 'make up' for thousands of years of inequality. Some men who get all white knight and defensive of feminist principals come off as just as condescending and patriarchal as those who want them back in the kitchen.
But despite these individuals, it's not a bad thing to learn to treat women with respect (and a large part of that is learning to communicate to them without being offensive, dismissive or condescending), if you ever want to have sex with one without paying by the half-hour.
Long post
Excellently set up historical analogy (even if you did indirectly compare women to goats) :)
Zo
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As until recently I worked in jobs where the staff were 80% female.
Sounds like my experiences in call centers or the Post Office encoding center. 300 employees, 285 of them women. It was surprisingly oppressive at times (and I generally have more female friends than male, being one of those social lepers who doesn't like watching a bunch of athletic men in tight clothing prance around for hours and obsessing about their personal lives), and I considered it a valuable bit of perspective on what it must feel like to be the only woman on the bus, or the only woman at the table, or the only woman in the classroom.
I do kinda miss the sexy artwork from the old Dieties & Demigods, with all the Egyptian and Greek goddesses with their bewbies hanging out. (IIRC, some of the male gods, like Hermes, had some junk hanging out as well...)
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I have no doubt that it has changed (again it was 10 years ago that I was learning this stuff), my question is why? 'He' was the default pronoun for simplicity's sake, not to be mysognistic. But all of a sudden people take offense to it and now we have to switch back and forth between pronoun when writing anything where a gender isn't required? We have to restructure sentences to make sure the pronoun we use is plural? PC will be the death of society (after organized religion) lol.Thousands of years ago, tribesmen would symbolically place all the sins of their village upon a goat and drive it out of the village (or even kill it). These days, there are still people who do similar things with chickens, using them to 'soak up evil' and then ritually killing them to get rid of the evil.
It doesn't really matter that these people don't bear any specific loathing for goats, it still sucks for the goat.
Similarly, it doesn't matter whether or not the average male English speaker doesn't 'mean anything by it' when he uses 'he' to include women, because of 'tradition' (a 'tradition' handed down by men who considered women property of their husbands, and unsuited to owning property, having basic rights or being able to vote), so long as it bothers the women, who *do* have the right to vote these days.
Using the male pronoun as a default is not just insulting, but bass-ackwards, as it suggests that the male condition somehow includes the female condition as a subset, when, biologically, it's the opposite, with the female XX being the default state, and the male XY being a modification of that default state.
Some feminists are annoying, and seem to want to not just be equal to men, but to be treated *better* then men, as if they need to 'make up' for thousands of years of inequality. Some men who get all white knight and defensive of feminist principals come off as just as condescending and patriarchal as those who want them back in the kitchen.
But despite these...
Here is what I don't get...why is it that people assume that, because i advocate the use of 'he' as the default pronoun, I have no respect for women?
I could give a sh*t which gender pronoun was used as the default as long as the grammar police would pick one and stick with it. English is already one of the hardest languages to learn and now we have to worry about alternating he and she every other paragraph or restructuring every sentence that normally used a singular he/she/his/her/etc. pronoun to become plural so the gender neutral 'they/their/etc.' can be used in its place. It's just plain asinine!
There is not some conspiracy to continue to use the male pronoun as the universal in order to keep women down. The fact that people were (and continue to be) actually offended by it makes me want to puke. There are bigger things to worry about than if we've been politically correct in writing our last term paper or memo.
Interesting, perhaps, but ultimately irrelevant to the conversation.
The suffragettes weren't called feminists until retroactively in the 1970's. An interesting question would be whether the suffragettes would have allowed themselves to be called feminists had they any choice in the matter.
Not at all. They called themselves suffragettes because they wanted sufferage. What's the etymology of the word feminist?
Women's groups (regardless of what title you grant them) have been politically active in many issues. Worker's rights, homosexual rights, child's rights, and so forth.
Of course they have, but only in as much as it benefitted them.
If all women's groups are so great for men, can you explain their stance on false paternity and why a cheated man should not only not be told, but if he does find out that he be legally forced to finance a child who is not his?Prior to the 1970s, a man was expected to be the sole provider of his home. He thus had to pursue a career that earned a good wage, at the expense, perhaps, of doing something he actually enjoyed for a living.
Do you have any evidence that was the intended result of women entering the workforce or was it just a happy coincedence? My money's pretty firmly on the latter. (And for the record I'm not saying women shouldn't have the opportunity to work or be educated. Not by a long shot.)
This is the same group of women who brought us quotes like:
"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.’ — Catherine Comins
And there's a reason that many women are no longer willing to be associated with classical feminism...
http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2004/0811roberts.html
A very scant few extremist women's rights activists and very many anti-women-right's activists use alternative meanings that imply, "Women who think they are better than men." That's a very damaging concept, perpetuated by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, who coined the phrase, "feminazi."On the other hand only a feminist could get away with suggesting that eliminating 90% of men would dramatically improve the world.
Feminist does not sound like quite the correct word to describe the person who would make this quote, a sociopath or demagogue perhaps but not a Feminist.
Any wacko can claim to be part of a group, but that does not mean that the vast majority of that group agrees with that person’s statements or beliefs.
Feminist does not sound like quite the correct word to describe the person who would make this quote, a sociopath or demagogue perhaps but not a Feminist.
On the other hand only a feminist could get away with suggesting that eliminating 90% of men would dramatically improve the world.
Google Mary Daly.
Any wacko can claim to be part of a group, but that does not mean that the vast majority of that group agrees with that person’s statements or beliefs.
They don't have to if the wacko has sufficient influence over the ideology of the group.
~Lnds with a crash, looks around for someone.~
"Is she here? No.... fine then."
~Leaps out of thread.~
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The interesting thing about this conversation is that it has been majority if not all male (It is difficult to tell as many male posters use female avatars).
I am wondering why we have not had our fellow female gamers not comment. My only theory is that there is a perceived or perceivable undercurrent of hostility (unintended) in this thread.
Well I posted a bit earlier, I have been reading it but mostly I kinda thought the tone and direction the thread took was just sad. So I stayed out of it.
For the record i am in favor of the switch in gender pronouns. I remember the first time i read a game book that did that and it was such a nice change. It a bit to do with why I dumped DnD in the early 90's for WoD, which felt more welcoming to women. Least to me it did.
Does the fact that women's groups fought for women's rights first and foremost detract from the good that they did for other people? You're also painting with very broad strokes here, assuming that feminists care only about the feminist agenda. No one is that single-minded.
Actually the radical feminists are that one minded, which wouldn't be an issue if they didn't have so much influence among the moderates.
As for false paternity etc., I would offer this: every philosophy has its radical elements. These radical elements do not define the core of the philosophy, however. For example, some conservatives would love to see interracial marriage banned, but most do not. Some liberals think smoking in your own home should be illegal if you have children, but most do not.
Switching the topic doesn't address the point. Nor does painting the feminist stance on false paternity as radical, mean that it's not common or the norm amongst feminist organizations.
Again, that's irrelevant. You stated that feminists have never benefited men, and I simply countered by showing that they, in fact, have.
Actually what I stated was that very little of what they did benefited men and more importantly, I haven't seen any evidence to beleive that any of those benefits were intentional.
I do not claim to understand the motive of every single feminist past and present, but that does not detract from that fact that the feminist movement has benefited many people not directly related to it.
Communism and fascism benefited specific groups of people too. Does that mean we should ignore the bad things associated with them?
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Regarding the male beefcake vs female cheesecake in art issue
The issue here is one of idealism vs hypersexuality.
Let's look at that big half nude barbarian. what's accentuated? The muscles. Barbarian pictures tend to be exercises in aggressive anatomy. His face is typically not the Fabio variety, but rather rugged and scarred. The barbarian is idealized. His primary attributes that are accentuated are his strength, his muscular body, his ruggedness.
Let's look at the female picture now. What's accentuated? Swelling breasts. Slightly red face. Plush, open lips. The female picture is hypersexualized. Here, her primary attributes that are accentuated are all involved with her readiness for sex.
It gets worse when you leave the barbarian. Protagonist male wizards are crafty, wizened, and wise, while the female ones look exactly the same as the female barbarians. Warriors? Hello to the chainmail bikini. The male warrior is drawn to accentuate the armor, the female drawn, once again, to accentuate her sexual capabilities.
To put a finer point on it, the problem is, both men and women in this type of art is drawn in a way intended to appeal only to straight men. While the man is punching, flexing, or running, the woman is shown arching her back, presenting herself, or shifting her hips.
This was, for a long time, even disputed along fantasy race lines. Dwarves were the "masculine" race, with the ever present question regarding females with beards - or, more often, females that simply never appeared. Half the artwork and stories out there would have you convinced dwarves are entirely mono-gendered. It's no surprise then that dwarves hit a large popularity with the "neckbeard" style crowd. Elves, on the other hand, were considered the "feminine" race, but even this is drastically flawed, as elven women are, if anything, even more hypersexualized then the human women were. No, the reason for them being considered the feminine race was because the men were typically drawn as having softer features, and they were set up as being opposite to the dwarves.
Let's turn the table and see how things would work if we really did want to use the argument of "Well women have their beefcake too!"
The barbarian now has plus, open lips. Slightly red skin on his face. His rugged and scarred face is far prettier now, maybe with a single scar meant more to accentuate the good features. Oh, and the loincloth he wears is somewhat extended due to the large bulge underneath it.
Still think things are fair?
For the record, the male depictions are equally damaging as the female ones, but for a different reason. What do you see in the typical depictions of men and the masculine race? Real men are strong. Real men are violent. Real men always hold the position of power. Real men put their trust in physical solutions.
This is not healthy.
A lot of stuff
Some nice double standards in this here part of the woods.
You're taking a vocal and extremist minority and claiming they speak for everyone else. Let's allow that to work for all sects.
Americans are all fat ignorant jerks.
People of X Religion are all insane extremists who want to control the world and wipe out everyone else.
French are all smelly cheesy monkey cowards in before someone grabs this and goes "Well at least one of them is true!" thus proving my point for me.
Germans are all super organized anal retentive anti-semites.
In fact? Let's get really dangerous with this.
All people of X Ethnicity fit their stereotypes completely.
See the problem?
A lot of stuffYou're taking a vocal and extremist minority and claiming they speak for everyone else.
Actually i've been pretty consistent about stating that moderate feminists who have reasonable goals are often directed and influenced by the radicals who's goals are not so reasonble.
See the problem?
"Everything feminism has done is good."
"Feminism is above reproach."You tell me.
"Everything feminism has done is good."
"Feminism is above reproach."You tell me.
Nobody is saying this. But you. And your entire "point" is simply the other side of the coin - that feminism has never done good.
You're arguing against yourself.