Hey all - a fun question came up in my game recently. A Vrock appeared and cast mirror image, giving him 7 images, not including him, so 8 total targets. The PC had whirlwind attack and wanted to use it against the images since to him they looked like multiple creatures to attack. "You can strike out at every foe within reach."
I ruled that he could not use the feat in this way since it was technically one foe, and also since real foes take up their own individual 5' squares (it has been amply illustrated on here by SKR that the images in the spell comingle and can all appear in the same 5' square).
Did I rule correctly?
And what about Alchemist Fire?
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well lets just look:
School illusion (figment); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.
When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).
You can strike out at every foe within reach.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
In the RAW I think you were right to rule as you did. The images are in the same spot as the target. Since there is only one target Whirlwind attack does not help any.
Hey all - a fun question came up in my game recently. A Vrock appeared and cast mirror image, giving him 7 images, not including him, so 8 total targets. The PC had whirlwind attack and wanted to use it against the images since to him they looked like multiple creatures to attack. "You can strike out at every foe within reach."
I ruled that he could not use the feat in this way since it was technically one foe, and also since real foes take up their own individual 5' squares (it has been amply illustrated on here by SKR that the images in the spell comingle and can all appear in the same 5' square).
Did I rule correctly?
There was a long discussion of this not too long ago, and the consensus opinion was...nobody knows.
The images generated by mirror image act in someway like targets and in some ways not. Your ruling was perfectly reasonable. I generally allow the images to be targeted by whirlwind attack, but there is no official ruling.
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Hey all - a fun question came up in my game recently. A Vrock appeared and cast mirror image, giving him 7 images, not including him, so 8 total targets. The PC had whirlwind attack and wanted to use it against the images since to him they looked like multiple creatures to attack. "You can strike out at every foe within reach."
I ruled that he could not use the feat in this way since it was technically one foe, and also since real foes take up their own individual 5' squares (it has been amply illustrated on here by SKR that the images in the spell comingle and can all appear in the same 5' square).
Did I rule correctly?
There was a long discussion of this not too long ago, and the consensus opinion was...nobody knows.
The images generated by mirror image act in someway like targets and in some ways not. Your ruling was perfectly reasonable. I generally allow the images to be targeted by whirlwind attack, but there is no official ruling.
I think the miss understanding comes from the image we put in our heads of the Mirror image spell. That we now have several images in a line that are 5' apart and only one is real. This is not how the spell works. You now have a tight little cluster that fades in and out over the primary target. You see the images overlap. This makes it easier to see special effects wise why whirlwind attack does not and can not work. You only have one target and you might not hit him.
I would have allowed it, seems a perfectly reasonable counter to the mirror image spell, in former editions it was always possible, in pathfinder it isn't per raw.
I do not think this has been changed due to the spell being weak, it has always been a good spell, but to speed up play. I will just assume the images have an AC of 4 less than the caster and let the fighter have some fun with this feat he picked, I'd similary allow cleave and great cleave to work.
Not all creatures take up individual squares, tiny and smaller creatures typically don't and some small creatures have the ability to share a space.
Creature Size Space
Fine 1/2 ft
Diminutive 1 ft
Tiny 2-1/2 ft
In 3.5, each image had his own AC and thus was a valid target for Whirlwind Attack.
In PF, it's no longer the case, so I would say no to allow Whirlwind attack to attack all the images at the same time, but of course YMMV.
What difference does it make for Whirlwind Attack that the images are in 1 square? The feat says you make an attack roll against all opponents within reach. 1 square is within reach, is it not?
The difference lies in whether the images count as legitimate foes. Are you attacking the mage and (maybe) just hitting an image? Or are you attacking a random target in the square and (maybe) hitting the mage? The images mimic an AC and you are making an attack roll - which (for me) seems to satisfy the requirements of making an attack on an opponent. It seems that you targeting something specific within the imaged square, you just can't determine whether it's the mage or the image prior to attacking. Given the huge requirements to attain Whirlwind Attack, its ability to impact a 2nd level spell doesn't seem farfetched at all. I'd allow it, but that's no revelation for this retread....
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If there were 8 rats in that square, he'd be able to whirlwind them.
Since whirlwind is a full-round action, requiring the PC to be within their reach of the target, there is no reason not to give them whirlwind.
Mirror Image is not Blur or Displacement. There are 8 images, not one image that is hard to hit.
I would allow it and I expect my DM to allow it when I play my duelist in his game.
Mirror Image is tough for fighter types to overcome. Spending a full round only getting one chance to hit the right target in order to cut down the images is not broken in the slightest.
And what about Alchemist Fire?I think that would be covered here:
Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments.
Alchemist Fire is a spell?
Alchemist Fire is a spell?And what about Alchemist Fire?I think that would be covered here:
Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments.
He didn't say it was a spell. He pointed you to the most similar situation covered in the rules. He was, in other words, trying to be helpful, as opposed to, I don't know, being snarky.
In 3.5, each image had his own AC and thus was a valid target for Whirlwind Attack.
In PF, it's no longer the case, so I would say no to allow Whirlwind attack to attack all the images at the same time, but of course YMMV.
This is my ruling as well. (Sorry Deidre).
The problem is that a mirrored image caster is not 8 foes. It's essentially one foe with a special form of concealment. The images themselves can not flank or threathen on thier own.
This interpretation will solve many of the questions involved here (while empowering the spell). For ease of play, the 'special form of concealment' method is hard to beat (and the spell certainly behaves like concealment). Given that the images flow through and around the caster - it certainly passes the smell test. I think you've convinced me! (Woe is the fighter, he cannot have nice things....)
In 3.5, each image had his own AC and thus was a valid target for Whirlwind Attack.
In PF, it's no longer the case, so I would say no to allow Whirlwind attack to attack all the images at the same time, but of course YMMV.
Eh, +1. I don't necessarily like it, but this is the way to go in PF.
Why can't whirlwind attack hit these targets that require an attack roll?
Because they're not targets. Mirror image does create multiple images, but it's still obviously one opponent. The ability hits each opponent once, not each thing that can be hit once.
I wonder whose idea it was to make Mirror Image crazy powerful in Pathfinder. Did some one consider this spell underpowered for some reason?
Update from James Jacobs:
Quote:
The images created by mirror images shift and move about. You can't specifically target a single mirror image any more than you can specifically target the real thing that's protected by mirror image, and thus you wouldn't be able to use Cleave or Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack to specifically target the images.
Mirror image does not grant you extra attacks if you use one of these feats. If you attack a target protected by mirror image while using Cleave, Great Cleave, or Whirlwind Attack, you interact with the spell in the same way as if you were just attacking a target with a normal attack.
End Quote.
Asked and answered.
Update from James Jacobs:
Quote:
The images created by mirror images shift and move about. You can't specifically target a single mirror image any more than you can specifically target the real thing that's protected by mirror image, and thus you wouldn't be able to use Cleave or Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack to specifically target the images.Mirror image does not grant you extra attacks if you use one of these feats. If you attack a target protected by mirror image while using Cleave, Great Cleave, or Whirlwind Attack, you interact with the spell in the same way as if you were just attacking a target with a normal attack.
End Quote.Asked and answered.
Good so I ruled correctly. Thanks guys, this was an invigorating discussion.