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True.Because there are none to choose from unless he creates them.False.
Indifferent.
The good news is that it goes both ways for the monk. How many thing are going to be overcoming your 10/chaotic?At level 20, probably a good amount of things.
Even if they can't, most things do over 10 damage when they hit even rolling 1s. The balor has a minimum of 15. But then he has the chaotic subtype, so he overcomes your DR anyway. Along with all the rest of his demon buddies.
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Because there are none to choose from unless he creates them. This is not the fault of the DM. There are creatures to choose from with DR/magic, so I have no problem with that even if I never encountered any. Not the case with lawful.No, it isn't. Your DM is choosing NOT to use creatures that are available that have DR/lawful. This is no different from the DM choosing NOT to use creatures that are available that have DR/magic, or DR/adamantine, or DR/foozle.We use the core books.
As I said its not that I don't get the chance to use it, I had not used DR/magic either. Its that it is pointless at the moment unless the DM creates something specially for me.
There are none to choose from in the Bestiary. But many of us use monsters from a variety of sources. The ability is potentially useful in our games.
Furthermore, as I said, Paizo's own Legacy of Fire AP, which they published just last year, has proteans. Not every monster can be in the Bestiary and it is perhaps an oversight not to have at least one monster in there with that weakness, but Paizo specifically published their ruleset to support their APs.
That being said, it is better for a ruleset to include options for a variety of games and campaigns and worlds - not just one. The Bestiary is hardly the ultimate source of monsters, much as I admire it. The rules, to be compatible with the widest variety of outside books, has to include for a wide variety of possibilities. Thus the monk's ability. If there were no rules for overcoming a damage reduction using lawful weapons, there would be howls of protests from people saying that Paizo's rules were not compatible with this book or that book.
Which is to say you obviously can't make everyone happy. But options are good and its better to have a tool you don't need than to not have it and need it.
True.Because there are none to choose from unless he creates them.False.
They exist. They even exist in the Pathfinder RPG rules set. Your DM is just choosing not to use the books -- official Paizo books -- that contain them, and is thus choosing not to use them. He doesn't have to make them up, he just has to choose to use them. So, no, what you said is false.
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You should not have to buy supplements for a core class's abilities to be useful.
I think that is the crux of your argument (or gripe).
But many of us have so many supplements we have problems relating (and I say that as someone who mainly uses the core) to your concern. I think you should just accept that it is an ability that is not useful to you but might be useful to others. (cf. comment above about tools) and we will accept you think it a mistake. That is, we will each accept its a matter of opinion and play-styles.
Oi-veh....
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Let me ask this, Joe.
If they had a monster in the Bestiary that had DR/Lawful, would that be enough? Or would you be on here saying that, unless the GM includes that one monster, the Monk's ability is still useless?
Not trying to play "Gotcha!" here, I'm really curious.
Because while I agree it's lamentable that there aren't currently Monsters to fill every role in the Bestiary, I also find that to be an unrealistic expectation. To my mind, if you're limiting yourself to "Just Core, Nothing Else, Never Make Your Own Monsters", then you're going to need a lot more than one or two critters lying around to really make the Monk ability worthwhile, and there just isn't that kind of space in the book.
When it comes down to the deadline, and you have to decide what makes it into the Bestiary and what doesn't, 'making that one small part of the monk class immediately useful' is pretty low down on the priorities list.
And while I understand you don't feel this solves the situation adequately, there is a rather large chunk of the Bestiary dedicated to creating your own monsters. :D
Because while I agree it's lamentable that there aren't currently Monsters to fill every role in the Bestiary, I also find that to be an unrealistic expectation. To my mind, if you're limiting yourself to "Just Core, Nothing Else, Never Make Your Own Monsters", then you're going to need a lot more than one or two critters lying around to really make the Monk ability worthwhile, and there just isn't that kind of space in the book.
Joe, I see your point and I agree. I understand this is an international site for a game that spans the globe. Having said that, I live ion the USA. Thanks to our economy, my using just the core books is less by choice and more due to financial necessity. So, I dont have access to the books outside of the main 2 core rule books.
I thought from what I remember of the arguements about how bad the fighter class was in 3.5, the chief complaint was dead levels. Seems that this monk ability is very limited and situational at best. That would make it all but a dead level. I think the concept of we will put it in because we plan to make it useful is a terrible thought. Until it becomes relevant by the later books being released, its remains useless. Even after they are released, information in the core book should not gain relivance by something presented in a supplimental, optional book. Anything not in the core IS supplimental and optional for use.
I say house rule a replacement ability. Something with a similar intent. Maybe somethin g like a Paladins smite evil, on have it be a Smite chaos. Either way, while I agree it is broke and you shouldnt have to invent a fix, in the end, all rules are optional if the DM and his group deside they dont like them. It seems to me it is better to make a fix that fits your game then leave it as it is if it seems useless in your game.
Actually I would say that monks can be pretty good given a few homebrew feats and rolled stats. Whereas the Wizard needs just a good INT, the Monk needs good Strength, Dex and Wis (If anyone says they need Int I'm sorry but your opinion is wrong :)). Just last session I had a monk's jumping abilities come in handy when fighting some archers hiding in a tree. He tripped them out of the trees, killing two out of five, and the fighter took the other one who survived the fall (And then freaking threw his sword twenty feet to kill the last one... He doesn't have throw anything.). At level five when the single wizard would know fly, but probably wouldn't have prepped and would have had to shoot at 20 AC creatures anyway thanks to cover, he just ran up, deflected their shots, and destroyed them. Mind you we're talking 15 and 20 foot vertical clearance here. In every fight he's been second only to the angry fighter (Who, like many fighters I've had, is incredibly lucky) and he did manage to avoid an instant death attack from a caster, which is something a fighter can't do.
I tend to view them as rouge/fighters with lower damage but a bunch of special abilities. Sure, jump gets phased out, but at this level he's pretty happy for that class feature and his ranks in the skill. Saying a class is underpowered because at 20th level something isn't as good as something else is a fallacy. Who actually plays to twentieth level on a regular basis? I'm betting well under half the people playing this game.
Well, I wasn't looking for it, but I've come across the Thais in Second Darkness #2. Needs to be converted to PFRPG, if that matters.
The absence of Slaad (Closed Content) and the absence of the Anarchic Template (Think Fiendish but Chaos instead of Evil - also closed content but could probably be skirted pretty easily) make this ability in a core only game somewhat suspect.
However if you use 3.x material (you can, Paizo can't) it's not a problem at all. Just have plenty of chaotic casters summon anarchic creatures instead.
Another alternative would be to give the Evil Outsiders with DR/Evil DR/Good additional negators base upon alignment.
So the Demon would have DR/Good, Lawful and the Avoral would have DR/Evil, Lawful. That way your monk could beat up on a whole host of chaos infected outsiders. It's a minor power-up for the monk and perhaps a minor power-down for outsiders (depending on how common anarchic and axiomatic weaponry is in your game).
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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That would be enough for me. Then it would have a point.We do make our own monsters, there is a custom race in this game. But that should not be the only way for this ability to have purpose. A core class ability should be have to possibility of being applicable with core books.
I disagree about space. There was enough space for lots of other abilities. I would say making a core class ability have a purpose would be one of the top priorities. I would say its not really small either. Using the ki pool to overcome enemies is a pretty big thing for a monk.
If that would satisfy you, that's fine, but I don't think it actually solves your problem in any substantive way. Consider that the monk gets this ability at level 10. With one monster, you get maybe one fight that makes the monk ability 'useful', and then what? 10 levels of being right back to where you started.
To really make it a relevant ability, you need a stable of monsters which you can use to build a variety of encounters. That's something they just can't fit into a Bestiary very easily, especially when you have a whole book full of monsters that need to be printed for equal or greater reasons.
But its a problem for you, and I can understand that, so here's my suggestion. House rule that some of the monsters in the bestiary with the Chaotic subtype have DR/Lawful instead of whatever alignment they normally resist. That way you have a pretty good selection of monster to choose from.
A quick read up on the class shows its a standard ability for the class even in 3.5 and a search of the standard SRD shows that, aside from aforementioned slaadi, there isn't a lot that has DR/lawful in the first place. Unless you're doing some fun dimension-hopping with the slaadi, who aren't much of a part of most ecosystems, you'd have the exact same problem in D&D 3.x without purchasing additional materials.
As well, Paizo released Pathfinder to INTENTIONALLY be compatible with all sorts of 3.x with little/no work. Many folks who are PF players have a bookshelf or more of 3.x supplements. Believe it or not, its not that you have to buy additional books to make it worthwhile, its that Paizo recognizes a great deal of their audience has already bought those books. I wager, out of all of the books and PDFs released in the nearly ten years that 3rd edition was in print, someone addressed this issue, likely multiple someones.
SO: raw print, you're up a creek anyway and there's a bigger pool of materials than JUST the two core books, even freely and legally available online. As well, as vuron points out, a simple shift can be made that amounts to the GM adding one line.
Alignment is problematic. Whether it's used for DR or detection or whatever. Alignment should be what you DO, not the label you choose to apply to yourself. Extending it to weapon properties is (and always has been) somewhat weird.
Having said that, alignment properties are here to stay and, while this particular ability is nigh useless unless DM fiat makes it a priority, your monk will still rail at the encroaching chaos in his/her fictionalized game setting world or some such....
Well, I wasn't looking for it, but I've come across the Thais in Second Darkness #2. Needs to be converted to PFRPG, if that matters.Thais is the herald of Cayden Cailean. I highly doubt the PC's are going to kill her. ;)
Ah... hadn't realized Thais was a singular being. Just glanced at the Defense stats as I looked through the AP Bestiaries to check the CR of the SWARMS that've been featured. I was going to mention the Proteans in Legacy of Fire, too, but someone already has.
Creative Director
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I'm pretty sure the qlippoth (the things that were in the Abyss before demons showed up) will end up getting DR/Lawful as well. If you play ONLY with the core rules and the first Bestiary, then yeah, monks will not get much use from their DR/Lawful penetration. Hopefully if you're a GM in this situation, you'll put some DR/Lawful stuff in your game anyway... but in any event, it's not the only ability that monks gain at 10th level so I hardly think it's too much cause for concern.
Eeep i just realised that slaad wasn't in the first book. That is a monster monks own
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Ah... hadn't realized Thais was a singular being. Just glanced at the Defense stats as I looked through the AP Bestiaries to check the CR of the SWARMS that've been featured. I was going to mention the Proteans in Legacy of Fire, too, but someone already has.Well, I wasn't looking for it, but I've come across the Thais in Second Darkness #2. Needs to be converted to PFRPG, if that matters.Thais is the herald of Cayden Cailean. I highly doubt the PC's are going to kill her. ;)
She has a rather cool story too. Asmodeus has one of her wings...she's supposed to have six.
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We converted completely. Bestiary II isn't out yet, so it does not help. But monsters should be added for lawful and chaotic (Chaotic has it slightly better because at least one thing has DR/chaotic (level 20 monks)
Wow. When I think complete conversion, I think rules set and character options, etc. But I would never rule out 3.5 monsters. What's the point of me owning MM1-5 plus all the themed monster books from WotC if I don't use them (plus all three Tome of Horrors, the Advanced Bestiary, the Book of Fiends, and the D20 Expert Player's Guide: Epic Monsters). In my opinion, the more monsters, the better. Even multiple versions of the same monster are good....don't let your players get comfortable with thinking they know what's coming at them.
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The absence of Slaad (Closed Content) and the absence of the Anarchic Template (Think Fiendish but Chaos instead of Evil - also closed content but could probably be skirted pretty easily) make this ability in a core only game somewhat suspect.
The last book to see print for the Scarred Lands 3.5 ed (Strange Lands: The Lost Tribes of the Scarred Lands)has a version of this template, as well as one for lawful, fire, earth, air and water as well. I believe they are all open content as well. I made heavy use of these in my old SL game.
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Rangers abilities are not useless. All of them can be used. If they have elfs as their enemy and an elf shows up woo. Monks have lawful fists, but it is good against nothing. Nothing can show up unless the DM specifically creates it.
Maybe I am missing something, but I don't think Elves show up unless the DM specifically creates them either. As far as I know, the DM creates all the creatures that show up in a game.
Enough people has explained why it is not useless.
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Elves are part of core books. A normal choice the DM does not have to create, he simply takes them from the book. For lawful the DM would have to custom create the monster. The difference is between the enemy already existing as a pre-created race or in the bestiary vs a enemy the DM would have to custom create.Maybe I am missing something, but I don't think Elves show up unless the DM specifically creates them either. As far as I know, the DM creates all the creatures that show up in a game.
Enough people has explained why it is not useless.
Tell your GM to go to PFSRD.com and take a look under monsters. Chances are the Proteans are there waiting for him to use and he doesn't have to waste his time.
EDIT: In no way am I saying that this is a reasonable course of action. It just seems this argument is going in circles and is only going to increase page count to come down to;
"My GM doesn't want to use non pathfinder stuff and I don't want to have to buy a book so he can use it"
If he plans on using a lot of stuff from legacy of fire, I would suggest he buy the path, but for one monster I'm okay with pointing out that particular fix for. In no way do I condone Pathfinder SRD as a means of circumventing support of Paizo.
My suggestion, make variations of fiendish/celestial:
Axiomatic
Rebuild Rules: Senses gains darkvision 60 ft.; Defensive Abilities gains DR and energy resistance as noted on the table; SR gains SR equal to new CR +5; Special Attacks smite chaos 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against chaotic foes; smite persists until target is dead or the axiomatic creature rests).
DR is as per fiendish/celestial table, but DR /chaotic
Energy resist: cold, acid, electricity
(I just used Celestial resists, I don't see a clear reason to use otherwise)
Anarchic
Rebuild Rules: Senses gains darkvision 60 ft.; Defensive Abilities gains DR and energy resistance as noted on the table; SR gains SR equal to new CR +5; Special Attacks smite law 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against lawful foes; smite persists until target is dead or the anarchic creature rests).
DR /lawful, resist acid, sonic (or something)
I think as to the why there are no monsters in the core books that make that particular ability useful is that they simply didn't think about it. It was just an oversight. When they were deciding which monsters were needed/wanted, no one snapped their finger and said "Wait a sec! We need to put in that special monster for the 10th level monk to fight!" Just like no one said,"monk lawful ki strike? Screw 'em!" It is a useless ability if you only use core, and that stinks a little, but I can forgive the immediate oversight for the long term results. Paizo isn’t making 2 core books, they are making an entire game. The argument that future products don’t count isn’t valid, because the Beastiery wasn’t out when the Core Rulebook was published, so technically none of the classes had anything to use their abilities on.
If it is really bother you, though, I’d consider replacing it with a ki ability that allows you to treat your Ki Pool (magic) as having an enhancement bonus for the purpose of overcoming damage resistance for 1 round and costs 2 ki points. At 10th lvl it could count as +3 (silver/cold iron), +4 at 13th(adamantine), and +5 at 16th (alignment). By 20th he will probably have an amulet +5 so he could bypass them all anyway.
My suggestion, make variations of fiendish/celestial:
Axiomatic
Rebuild Rules: Senses gains darkvision 60 ft.; Defensive Abilities gains DR and energy resistance as noted on the table; SR gains SR equal to new CR +5; Special Attacks smite chaos 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against chaotic foes; smite persists until target is dead or the axiomatic creature rests).DR is as per fiendish/celestial table, but DR /chaotic
Energy resist: cold, acid, electricity
(I just used Celestial resists, I don't see a clear reason to use otherwise)Anarchic
Rebuild Rules: Senses gains darkvision 60 ft.; Defensive Abilities gains DR and energy resistance as noted on the table; SR gains SR equal to new CR +5; Special Attacks smite law 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against lawful foes; smite persists until target is dead or the anarchic creature rests).DR /lawful, resist acid, sonic (or something)
This is what's so great about PnP RPG's. Something missing? Something not work? Houserule it. If this were a video game, like an MMORPG, we'd be screwed.
This situation has actually come up in a MMORPG; Final Fantasy XI Online. The Dragoon class gets an ability that grants them an attack and damage bonus versus dragons at a really early level. But, there are only a couple of dragons in the entire game, and they require the equivalent to several parties of epic level characters to fight,and by that point the numbers are so high that the measly little bonus the ability grants is irrelevant. THAT is a useless ability. In the glorious world of PnP RPG's, if something don't work, fix it.
I see the OP's point about the principle of it, and how core abilities of classes should be covered in the core books, but if you don't want to fix it, be patient. There's plenty more stuff on the way. There's a lot going on in this game, covering every possible base in 2 books is not an easy task.
I did not see them on that site.
Proteans are not currently on the site.
Not that they won't be added but I am not sure what book/source(s) they were originally in and we just plain haven't gotten around to them yet. If a collaborator knows and wants to work on converting them to PFRPG mechanics I'd be happy to see them added. As it is though we currently have a lot to do on the site.
I'd love to get someone new who's sole task was converting proteans. If anyone would like to step up, fire an email over to me to let me know (jreyst@gmail.com).
I am not sure what book/source(s) they were originally in
They first appeared in The Great Beyond, I believe, but there's only one type of Protean statted up there.
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This is what's so great about PnP RPG's. Something missing? Something not work? Houserule it. If this were a video game, like an MMORPG, we'd be screwed.
Naah - if it were a video game it would be considered an easter egg - a preview of things to come but not yet released. Because, as has been pointed out - its not the only ability monks get at level 10.
I am not sure what book/source(s) they were originally inThey first appeared in The Great Beyond, I believe, but there's only one type of Protean statted up there.
Is that the only book they've been in so far?
Is that the only book they've been in so far?I am not sure what book/source(s) they were originally inThey first appeared in The Great Beyond, I believe, but there's only one type of Protean statted up there.
No clue. I don't own even a fraction of everything Paizo's produced. I don't even own The Great Beyond; I know the one Protean is provided there because a friend owns the book and I borrowed it once. There aren't any other Proteans in Pathfinders #1-20, which are the volumes I own. I can't help for Pathfinder #21 and up, or any of the single adventure modules, or any of the settings books (aside from Qadira, which also does not have any Proteans).
Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Part 4 of Legacy of Fire has 2 Proteans (Imentesh-CR 10 and Naunet-CR 7), Keketars-CR 17 are in the Great Beyond.
The Discipline of holiness, and the Discipline of profanity look at it that way.
No, the discipline of discipline. Just doesn't fit the monk otherwise. Not the way I see the monk, anyway. EEMMV
You should not have to buy supplements for a core class's abilities to be useful.
The core rulebooks shouldn't be isolated like that just because everything else is optional.
Just ignore the ability - doesn't change the monk's power level much.
But don't begrudge those who spend money to buy supplements - or time to expand the game and make it truly their own - the tie-in.
Slaad aren't OGC. Proteans are, and from what I keep hearing, beat the crap out of slaad fluff wise.
It's "Slaadi". The plural isn't just slaads. It's slaadi. That's about the only thing not "meh" about them. They give True Chaotic a bad name. Or would, if they actually were Chaotic Neutral. Which they're not. They fail.
Proteans, on the others hand, rock. They couldn't care less about that good and evil crap. All they want to do is to dissolve this cancerous growth on the Maelstrom these living viruses call "Multiverse" or crap like that.
They're the antibodies that will destroy this infection.
And they just ooze style.
And you never know whether the creature you've just encountered is one of them in disguised.
Part 4 of Legacy of Fire has 2 Proteans (Imentesh-CR 10 and Naunet-CR 7), Keketars-CR 17 are in the Great Beyond.
Paenums are on my web page and in the Pathfinder DB.
As far as core abilities for core classes and monsters go, yes, it's a little odd.
But, at least, it's not the only ability a Monk gets at 10th level (they also get a bonus feat and a boost to their speed, and their ki pool goes up by 1). So as one of a number of abilities you get, it's a neat little flavor boost. If it's all you got it would be infuriating.
At the same time, I still agree a core class feature should apply to creatures, classes, and spells available in core. It is odd, and I wonder if it's an artifact from when they did give something a DR/lawful feature and then dropped it.
Paenums are on my web page and in the Pathfinder DB.
Wow... that's unfortunate. As of today both Pathfinderwiki and PathfinderDB are blocked by my employer :(
Suck.