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"At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. "
But I checked the bestiary and not one had damage reduction that was overcome by lawful alignment. No PC classes have damage reduction that is overcome by lawful. No spells I found grant such damage reduction. So unless the DM made a custom version with such damage reduction it is completely useless. I think that is a major problem.
Proteans should fit nicely into the category of foes whose damage reduction is bypassed by lawful weapons.
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LOL!
Too awesome.
We can never let Bulmahn et.al. live this one down.
In truth, though, the DR system is not so good. Maybe they (3.5 and Paizo) simplified the various DR rules-set because playtests determined it was too clunky -- keeping track of what weapons dealt what kind of damage. I dunno.
But I've always ranted that it's beyond ridiculous that devils need good-aligned weapons to beat down those pathetic things that crawl up from the Abyss in their Blood War engagements. (And vice versa, for demon-geeks to have good aligned weapons to fight off their superiors, the Devils).
What I would do is make the Monk's "lawful" strike get past DR from any Chaotic Outsider... or a Chaotic Cleric that got DR from a Divine spell (if one exists).
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3.0 was better and closer to earlier editions.
The design was based on
(though exceptions exist):
DR/ 5 +1
DR/10 +2
DR/15 +3
DR/20 +4
and something like that is much easier to add to:
DR/ 5 +1
DR/10 +2 and/or material (silver, cold iron, etc)
DR/15 +3 and/or alignment (Evil : Good :: Lawful : Chaotic)
DR/20 +4 and/or special (artifact, intelligent w/ specific purpose, Epic)
(This is what I use)
LOL!
Too awesome.
We can never let Bulmahn et.al. live this one down.In truth, though, the DR system is not so good. Maybe they (3.5 and Paizo) simplified the various DR rules-set because playtests determined it was too clunky -- keeping track of what weapons dealt what kind of damage. I dunno.
But I've always ranted that it's beyond ridiculous that devils need good-aligned weapons to beat down those pathetic things that crawl up from the Abyss in their Blood War engagements. (And vice versa, for demon-geeks to have good aligned weapons to fight off their superiors, the Devils).
What I would do is make the Monk's "lawful" strike get past DR from any Chaotic Outsider... or a Chaotic Cleric that got DR from a Divine spell (if one exists).
Actually, I've never had a problem with this at all. My problem has always been having Good Outsiders vulnerable to Evil weapons!
Consider this logic: If we consider DR a form of evolution against a foe, exactly who should Evil Outsiders be resistant to?
The forces of Hell fight one another and the Demons more often then any other foe. The whole concept of the Blood War is based on this precept of evil feeding upon itself. so, OF COURSE they are resistant to damage from one another! They are horrendously vulnerable to the armaments of Heaven, one more reason to hate celestials!
Who do Angels and the like fight the most often? Not one another! They fight EVIL. They should be most resistant to evil weaponry. They NEVER fight one another seriously...they should be most vulnerable to Good weapons being turned upon them, in essence being betrayed by sacred power. Angels fighting angels would indeed be a horrible affair, because they are the only ones who can truly harm one another easily!
And that's how I run it in my campaigns. It gives the Good OUtsiders an edge, which I don't have a problem with at all.
==Aelryinth
Actually, the Pathfinder system uses a variation of the old 3e system when it comes to DR (probably Monte Cook's influence somewhere because he never liked to new DR system apparently).
Proteans are definitely on the hurt by lawful weapons list. I think that you can probably pencil them in for Bestiary 2 as well (along with inevitables).
As for the whole good vs evil thing with devils and demons and DR (look, some alliteration). If you take this to its natural conclusion shouldn't devils have DR/anarchic and demons DR/axiomatic?
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Consider this logic: If we consider DR a form of evolution against a foe, exactly who should Evil Outsiders be resistant to?
The logic I run with for my games(and it generally works with how DR is presented) is that it's not really an evolutionary reaction. Good outsiders wouldn't be hurt by good weapons for the same reason fire elementals shouldn't be hurt by fire; you're trying to use positive mojo to hurt something that bleeds positive mojo.
The reason evil can cut through is because it is so diametrically opposed to their very nature.
That generally works for me, depending on how I want the cosmology in my games to work. YMMV, as always.
The way I've always ran it is that Lawful and Chaotic weapons will also work on Demons and Devils with DR/Good respectively. IF the two elements of their alignment are supposed to have an equal impact on a creature, then it makes sense. If not, well, then I'm just being nice to my otherwise poorly put-upon players.
3.0 was better and closer to earlier editions.
The design was based on
(though exceptions exist):DR/ 5 +1
DR/10 +2
DR/15 +3
DR/20 +4
The PF system is an improvement on 3.5's but the 3.0 and previous editions of D&D system for DR were terrible. 3.0 started with the right idea in quantifying how much damage could be ignored (instead of all of it for 1e/2e) but set the values so high that it often didn't matter.
Some slaads have DR/lawful. It's not much, but at least it exists.
It is a minor ability that likely will be useful later on, not every tiny thing needs to be min / maxed out, unless there are some major issues I wouldnt consider swapping it out for an ability that has always been much more useful.
The logic behind adamantine is much different than silver and cold iron, adamantine is generally used to penetrate hardness and constructs DR while silver and cold iron are anathema to certain supernatural powers, that wouldn't go well with the monk.
I houserule the fell strike ability, which can bypass any alignment DR and does 1d6 extra damage vs good alignments, many devils and demons have it, I haven't really considered how that would work for celestials and the like, it never comes up really, probably give them the same ability with + 1d6 damage vs evil.
I'd probably change the monks lawful strike, to deal + 1d6 damage vs creatures with the chaotic subtype in addition to counting as lawful, yea evil and good are better off, I have never seen chaos and law as big a thing over evil and good.
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Aelryinth, it's a neet idea, your evolution of Outsiders concept, but I'm also with Mikaze.
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Bill, apparently the designers and playtesters agree, thus the change from 3.0 to 3.5 and the continuation of 3.5 to Pathfinder D&D.
I never had a problem, though. Could you share an example of where it became a problem?
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Entropi, probably, I've always governed it this way -- when demons fight demons they get through each other's DR.
Bill, apparently the designers and playtesters agree, thus the change from 3.0 to 3.5 and the continuation of 3.5 to Pathfinder D&D.
I never had a problem, though. Could you share an example of where it became a problem?
Golems are the most notable example I can think of right now. DR 50/+3. What's the point of having a value for the DR if you're almost never going to exceed it?
Solution = Proteans.
Seriously. These monsters are so great, I will be using them everywhere.
It would have been nice if there had been something in the first Bestiary to address your problem, but this is one of those abilities that is going to ripen into something sweet.
I have no idea what they are. It may be fixed with the next MM, but we don't have anything on proteans. As it is with the core books there is nothing, it would be nice for it to be ripened but it isn't now.
Yeah, I'm not disagreeing.
I see your problem, and you're right.
What happened was: the most iconic of chaotic planar monsters, the Slaad, were not open content, so Paizo could not reprint them. Otherwise, they would definitely have been in the first Bestiary.
So Instead Paizo went about creating a replacement monster race called "Protean", which are in my opinion way cooler and much more on-message for the hordes of chaotic planar beasties. Trouble is, they weren't published in time to make the Bestiary. It is sad, but it happened.
So, take my word for it, this problem is going to be "solved" as much as you could reasonably hope, by the Bestiary 2. I agree it was unfortunate, but if this thread is a cry for more chaotic planar monsters, thy wish is granted.
PS- if you really can't wait to get a look at these guys, they are in The Great Beyond and Pathfinder #22: The End of Eternity. #22 happens to be my favorite PF issue and I would recommend getting it even if you don't get the rest of that series.
It does matter. For one thing, the monsters in the Bestiary are not the only published Pathfinder RPG monsters. For another, there are published Golarion monsters that havn't been updated to Pathfinder RPG yet that have DR/Lawful (Proteans, Paizo's Slaadi replacement, being one example). For a third, there's nothing stopping you or your DM from making up new creatures with DR/Lawful. For a fourth, Summoners, Summoners' Eidolons, and Inquisitors can all get DR/Lawful (Advanced Player's Guide classes).
"Seemingly" rocks.
Remember the game consists of far more than just the core books - and it's wise to plan ahead.
Of course, it was an outrage that the Proteans weren't put into the core rules.
But I've always ranted that it's beyond ridiculous that devils need good-aligned weapons to beat down those pathetic things that crawl up from the Abyss in their Blood War engagements. (And vice versa, for demon-geeks to have good aligned weapons to fight off their superiors, the Devils).
Order is destined to lose, horny boy.
That's the difference between team "I let others do my thinking" and team "Progress through change": The devils whine in the dark - demons just go get big nasty swords and cut the little control freaks to ribbons. Be part of the solution.
3. The DM should not have to create special monsters to fix it, nor would he.
You're missing the point, but I'm not going to bludgeon you over the head with it. It's not a wasted ability, but if you insist on thinking that way, don't play a monk. It's a horrible class in non-gestalt play anyway.
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It is good to know that it will be a valid ability in the future.
Its a valid ability now, just not in your particular game. Which is alright, but if anyone uses it in their games, they are thankful to have it. As stated, Paizo has printed monsters in their books that are vulnerable and many of us have those books.
Besides which, it makes more sense to include the ability from the get-go, even if non of the monsters in the Bestiary are vulnerable to it. That is, it makes more sense then providing errata later when there are monsters in the Bestiary II that are vulnerable.
Well I was never fond of DR/Lawful for the monks ever since 3.5. Most of the aligned creatures were usually DR/Good or Dr/Evil. I had the following thought for the monk based on his aligment he can get to choose what DR he can bypass.
Monks aren't about good or evil, though. They're about discipline. Making their weapons (un)holy doesn't make sense.
Isn't there something about creatures automatically being able to bypass the kind of damage reduction that they have themselves? Or was that something I dreamt? Or was it 3.5?
Sort of. Depends on what sort of DR we're talking about. It works with stuff like magic, but with alignments it's an opposite deal.
And it's not exactly a fixed rule.
Its not about mix/maxing, its about getting an ability that does nothing.
But this does something. It hurts Proteans/Slaadi, Titans, and a number of other things.
Not every ability will be useful in every fight, every adventure, or even every campaign.
So your campaign doesn't have Proteans? What about the ability to overcome DR/Magic in a campaign that doesn't have any critters with DR/Magic?
Isn't there something about creatures automatically being able to bypass the kind of damage reduction that they have themselves? Or was that something I dreamt? Or was it 3.5?Sort of. Depends on what sort of DR we're talking about. It works with stuff like magic, but with alignments it's an opposite deal.
And it's not exactly a fixed rule.
Actually, it is a fixed deal. Any creature with DR other than damage type (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning), material type (silver/cold iron/adamantine), or untyped (DR/-) bypasses DR/magic with its natural attacks. Any creature with DR/alignment bypasses DR/opposite-alignment with its natural attacks. Both are in the rules somewhere (I believe in the DR section of the Core Rulebook, but it may be in the Bestiary somewhere; I'm too lazy to look ATM).
Of course, a lot of those creatures either don't have natural attacks (demiliches have DR/vorpal, so their natural attacks would count as magical, but they don't have any) or don't use their natural attacks much (Balors have slams and DR/good, so their natural attacks count as magic and evil, but why use fisticuffs when you have a vorpal sword and an auto-grappling whip?).
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Yes it does make more sense to have it from the get go, I agree.
I also think it would have made more sense for it to be something that can be used in some circumstance, other than DM intervention, from the get go.
If you play the Legacy of Fire AP, there are Proteans. No "DM intervention" necesary.
Not every campaign will feature opportunities for every ability to shine. Rangers are the perfect example of this - the DM must provide opportunities for the Ranger to use his abilities or they are mostly moot. But that does not make the Ranger useless, it just means the DM must cooperate with the players to let them shine. Likewise with the monk - not every monk will be battling the forces of chaos, but when they do they have the chance to really be at their best.
I propose a fix for your game:
Take away the monk's overcome DR/Chaotic ability.
BAM! No more "useless" abilities.
We use the core books.
As I said its not that I don't get the chance to use it, I had not used DR/magic either. Its that it is pointless at the moment unless the DM creates something specially for me.
No, it isn't. Your DM is choosing NOT to use creatures that are available that have DR/lawful. This is no different from the DM choosing NOT to use creatures that are available that have DR/magic, or DR/adamantine, or DR/foozle.
The good news is that it goes both ways for the monk. How many thing are going to be overcoming your 10/chaotic?
Because there are none to choose from unless he creates them.
False.
