Seriously?
Are you incapable of finding someone who has expertise in living in the wilds? I know I'm not. I'm finding this pretty ridiculous, at this point. Go to the average army surplus store someday. Get a little experience in life. It's not hard.
Ah, I see.
Obviously my life is meaningless and has had no experience because I don't know people who are experts at living in jungles and such.
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Seriously?
Are you incapable of finding someone who has expertise in living in the wilds? I know I'm not. I'm finding this pretty ridiculous, at this point. Go to the average army surplus store someday. Get a little experience in life. It's not hard.
Ah, I see.
Obviously my life is meaningless and has had no experience because I don't know people who are experts at living in jungles and such.
You still don't get it, do you?
Nobody is ever prepared for every contingency. A F@++LOAD of people understand that you need mosquito repellant in most places where they might be...and recommending one with Deet as an ingredient is something anyone with a little experience will do.
The basic skill is NOT limited to one freakin' intrepid explorer that penetrated the Amazon, when nobody else had been there...in fact, there are friggin' documentaries on Netflix about it. It ain't rocket science.
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Well, nowadays we have Google. That's probably a +15 bonus to Gather Information checks...
I don't think there's something like that in Golarion, though.
Yes, exactly.
EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS BASIC SHIT LIKE THAT. This is the THIRD time I've said this.
I would think it would be obvious when you say you're going to "talk to some experts" you'd be looking for people who have more than basic experience, yes? So they can give you more than the basic knowledge. Otherwise there would be no point in seeking them out unless you felt like wasting both your time and theirs.
And "I can look it up online hurr durr" isn't exactly a solid parallel to an analogy to a scenario in a world WITHOUT INTERNET, now is it?
...nor is his stated scenario.Well, nowadays we have Google. That's probably a +15 bonus to Gather Information checks...
I don't think there's something like that in Golarion, though.
Use Google to look up the definition of the word "analogy", it should be enlightening.
If the players succeed, I give the players info without them taking hours upon hours to get it. That would be cruel.
@EldonG
Well... To be fair, you Fighter with 0 ranks in Diplomacy and 0 Cha modifier wouldn't be able to get anything more than basic information ("Well, stranger, I suppose you'd need food and ropes...") unless he rolled really well in that Diplomacy check ("How odd that you ask me this, warrior, I watched this documentary last night, you'll need X, Y and Z!")
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Yes, exactly.
EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS BASIC S~** LIKE THAT. This is the THIRD time I've said this.
I would think it would be obvious when you say you're going to "talk to some experts" you'd be looking for people who have more than basic experience, yes? So they can give you more than the basic knowledge. Otherwise there would be no point in seeking them out unless you felt like wasting both your time and theirs.
And "I can look it up online hurr durr" isn't exactly a solid parallel to an analogy to a scenario in a world WITHOUT INTERNET, now is it?
Use Google to look up the definition of the word "analogy", it should be enlightening....nor is his stated scenario.Well, nowadays we have Google. That's probably a +15 bonus to Gather Information checks...
I don't think there's something like that in Golarion, though.
You gave me a specific scenario. I worked within those bounds, not even fully exploiting it. Get over yourself.
...and yes, reneged. The first response was that it was something anybody could do...and it is. All your posturing thereafter is thus clearly in recognition that you failed.
Yes, anybody can gather basic supplies.
Not everybody can get experts to give them the time of day instead of going on about their business.
I have reneged on nothing. That would imply I went back on my word. In your eyes, I have perhaps contradicted myself, but in actuality I have not.
You gave me a specific scenario.
With the assumption that you also understood the concept of "context".
I worked within those bounds, not even fully exploiting it.
See above.
Get over yourself.
Not sure where this comes from exactly. You're either being deliberately obtuse or you somehow fail to understand what I'm saying.
In either case, the fault doesn't lie with me.
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@EldonG
Well... To be fair, you Fighter with 0 ranks in Diplomacy and 0 Cha modifier wouldn't be able to get anything more than basic information ("Well, stranger, I suppose you'd need food and ropes...") unless he rolled really well in that Diplomacy check ("How odd that you ask me this, warrior, I watched this documentary last night, you'll need X, Y and Z!")
Nonsense.
If it's actually a scenario set in Golarion...(where there is NO AMAZON)...I approach a ranger.
Get it?
Is that information so precious that a few coin won't loosen his lips? If it is...there are hundreds of others.
If the players succeed, I give the players info without them taking hours upon hours to get it. That would be cruel.
I do the same sometimes... It depends on how well they roll (usually, if they roll 5 or more over the DC, I say they found the information they're looking for right away, or at most, in a few minutes) and if time is a factor (if part of the challenge is learning the necessary information in a timely manner, then a simple Diplomacy check might work, but it'll take some time!)
I was just using RAW because house-rules can fix anything, even a Fighter's lack of options out of combat.
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...and yes, reneged. The first response was that it was something anybody could do...and it is. All your posturing thereafter is thus clearly in recognition that you failed.Yes, anybody can gather basic supplies.
Not everybody can get experts to give them the time of day instead of going on about their business.
I have reneged on nothing. That would imply I went back on my word. In your eyes, I have perhaps contradicted myself, but in actuality I have not.
You gave me a specific scenario.With the assumption that you also understood the concept of "context".
I worked within those bounds, not even fully exploiting it.See above.
Get over yourself.Not sure where this comes from exactly. You're either being deliberately obtuse or you somehow fail to understand what I'm saying.
In either case, the fault doesn't lie with me.
Nonsense.
Ha... ha... ha.
Nonsense.
If it's actually a scenario set in Golarion...(where there is NO AMAZON)...
But there is the Mwangi Expanse and the jungles in that area.
Very analogous to the Amazon, is it not?
I approach a ranger.
Where? Generally they're already out in the wilds somewhere, not just hanging around town swigging beer with nothing better to do.
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Nonsense.
If it's actually a scenario set in Golarion...(where there is NO AMAZON)...
But there is the Mwangi Expanse and the jungles in that area.
Very analogous to the Amazon, is it not?
I approach a ranger.Where? Generally they're already out in the wilds somewhere, not just hanging around town swigging beer with nothing better to do.
So then use that term. I've played in other scenarios. In Golarion, I'm an athlete? What class is that?
@EldonG
Well... To be fair, you Fighter with 0 ranks in Diplomacy and 0 Cha modifier wouldn't be able to get anything more than basic information ("Well, stranger, I suppose you'd need food and ropes...") unless he rolled really well in that Diplomacy check ("How odd that you ask me this, warrior, I watched this documentary last night, you'll need X, Y and Z!")
Nonsense.
If it's actually a scenario set in Golarion...(where there is NO AMAZON)...I approach a ranger.
Get it?
Is that information so precious that a few coin won't loosen his lips? If it is...there are hundreds of others.
I think you understand what I meant. Don't be obtuse.
There is no Amazon, but there are places like it, but I don't think there is anything like Google in Golarion.I approach a ranger.
Where? Generally they're already out in the wilds somewhere, not just hanging around town swigging beer with nothing better to do.
The Diplomacy check already includes finding someone with the information you're looking for. Maybe it was a Ranger who was selling whatever animals he caught last night?
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That's basically what a Fighter is. A mundane athlete, who happens to excel at the sport of killing people instead of something like basketball.
The Diplomacy check already includes finding someone with the information you're looking for. Maybe it was a Ranger who was selling whatever animals he caught last night?
But he doesn't want to make a Diplomacy check, he wants to magically home in on the guy and then have him spend his time explaining survival tips to him.
In Golarion, I'm an athlete? What class is that?
Probably an Expert with Skill Focus in something like Acrobatics, Climb or Swim...
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@EldonG
Well... To be fair, you Fighter with 0 ranks in Diplomacy and 0 Cha modifier wouldn't be able to get anything more than basic information ("Well, stranger, I suppose you'd need food and ropes...") unless he rolled really well in that Diplomacy check ("How odd that you ask me this, warrior, I watched this documentary last night, you'll need X, Y and Z!")
Nonsense.
If it's actually a scenario set in Golarion...(where there is NO AMAZON)...I approach a ranger.
Get it?
Is that information so precious that a few coin won't loosen his lips? If it is...there are hundreds of others.
I think you understand what I meant. Don't be obtuse.
There is no Amazon, but there are places like it, but I don't think there is anything like Google in Golarion.The Diplomacy check already includes finding someone with the information you're looking for. Maybe it was a Ranger who was selling whatever animals he caught last night?I approach a ranger.
Where? Generally they're already out in the wilds somewhere, not just hanging around town swigging beer with nothing better to do.
My character doesn't live in a vacuum. He knows where to find rangers. Is he a 1st level nobody, trying to get gold to go to the Mwangi? I seriously doubt that. Trust me...he has an idea where to find someone who knows this kind of thing.
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That's basically what a Fighter is. A mundane athlete, who happens to excel at the sport of killing people instead of something like basketball.
But he doesn't want to make a Diplomacy check, he wants to magically home in on the guy and then have him spend his time explaining survival tips to him.
The Diplomacy check already includes finding someone with the information you're looking for. Maybe it was a Ranger who was selling whatever animals he caught last night?
You'd be a terrible DM, calling my fighter an athlete, and the wizard a lawyer...and only remembering the place we were headed by analogy. :p
No...no magic. I approach him and ask if he's got a minute. If he doesn't, a few gold might make him find a minute.
Seriously...that's difficult?
Really?
Seriously?
Are you incapable of finding someone who has expertise in living in the wilds? I know I'm not. I'm finding this pretty ridiculous, at this point. Go to the average army surplus store someday. Get a little experience in life. It's not hard.
Ah, I see.
Obviously my life is meaningless and has had no experience because I don't know people who are experts at living in jungles and such.
Yes. Yes it is.
(I just couldn't resist, after months of him giving me a hard time and his generally trolling for a response)
You'd be a terrible DM, calling my fighter an athlete, and the wizard a lawyer...and only remembering the place we were headed by analogy. :p
Incorrect. The lawyer was a Bard, the Wizard is a professor.
No...no magic. I approach him and ask if he's got a minute.
You have to find him first. Which is my entire point.
How do you fin him?
You've got a few options:
1.) Randomly stumble across him wandering around the city.
2.) Gather Information from random passersby so they can tell you "Ranger Smith hangs out at the Broken Stag!".
3.) Already know where Ranger Smith is. Which assumes that you know Ranger Smith in the first place and know him well enough to know where he lives or is likely to hang out.
Number 3 is extremely unlikely. Number 1 would be possible, but also take a good deal of time and have a chance of failure. Number 2 is pretty much foolproof, but you've got a 50/50 shot or less of making that DC 10 (if he's well known or in a small town) or DC 15 (he's less well known or in a city) Diplomacy check.
I see... we're back to the "skill check vs player description" discussion.
EldonG, when you ask around for information, you are making a Diplomacy check to Gather Information. Assuming you don't put any extra effort in it and/or doesn't bother to describe it, that means your character is "Taking 10"
If you ask a specific person, then it's a Diplomacy check with a DC equal to 15 + That person's Cha modifier. (Assuming they're indifferent to you). There are rules for that too:
If you're asking for simple advice or directions, that DC goes down by -5. If you ask for detailed advice or simple aid, it stays the same, and if you ask for lengthy or complicated aid, it goes up by +5.
I'll not repeat all the arguments I posted earlier in this thread, but if you want your character to do something, she must be able to do it, otherwise she fails, no matter how well you describe her actions.
Of course, there are circumstantial bonuses/penalties...
e.g.: If you offer someone money, that might give you a +2, +5 or even a +10 depending on what you ask and how much cash you're offering, hell, this bonus can rise as much as the GM feels is appropriate! Which may be more than enough for you to auto-succeed with a "Take 10". In any case, your character is still making that Diplomacy check.
In that case, I'm not going. Have a nice day. :pIn Golarion, I'm an athlete? What class is that?Probably an Expert with Skill Focus in something like Acrobatics, Climb or Swim...
I think there are a few words missing in your answer... -.-'
Anyway, I was trying to illustrate to what would a RL athlete most likely be in PF terms.
Nothing stops you from being a 20th level Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Whatever and practicing a sport. So technically you can be an athlete with any class you want. I don't think that's what Rynjin meant, though...
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Seriously?
Are you incapable of finding someone who has expertise in living in the wilds? I know I'm not. I'm finding this pretty ridiculous, at this point. Go to the average army surplus store someday. Get a little experience in life. It's not hard.
Ah, I see.
Obviously my life is meaningless and has had no experience because I don't know people who are experts at living in jungles and such.
Yes. Yes it is.
(I just couldn't resist, after months of him giving me a hard time and his generally trolling for a response)
I hear you. Nothing like totally misrepresenting a point in hopes for a 'gotcha' moment, when we actually visit this board for constructive ways to make the game work. I can think of plenty of other things to do. (just finished watching 'Poker House', for example)
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you've got a 50/50 shot or less of making that DC 10 (if he's well known or in a small town) or DC 15 (he's less well known or in a city) Diplomacy check.In fact, if it's DC 10, you've got a 100% shot of making it.
That said, you shouldn't have to ask someone what gear one needs for wilderness survival, because Survival is one of your class skills. Either you don't need any skill in order to know what gear would be useful in wilderness survival, or you do. If the former, the fighter is perfectly competent for this, and if the latter, the fighter is still perfectly competent, since Survival is the obvious relevant skill.
...but it's 'aha', you're just an athlete. Pathetic, isn't it?
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...but it's 'aha', you're just an athlete. Pathetic, isn't it?I mean, look, I'm happy to concede that there are many situations to which the fighter isn't particularly well suited. But it's true of basically everyone that some situations play to their weaknesses, not to their strengths. This is why it's a team game in the first place.
The fighter is not blessed with a large number of skill points or a long list of class skills. But "I have 2 skills" is not "I have no skills at all."
...and a lot of things that are useful can be done with none at all.
you've got a 50/50 shot or less of making that DC 10 (if he's well known or in a small town) or DC 15 (he's less well known or in a city) Diplomacy check.In fact, if it's DC 10, you've got a 100% shot of making it.
That said, you shouldn't have to ask someone what gear one needs for wilderness survival, because Survival is one of your class skills. Either you don't need any skill in order to know what gear would be useful in wilderness survival, or you do. If the former, the fighter is perfectly competent for this, and if the latter, the fighter is still perfectly competent, since Survival is the obvious relevant skill.
I forget about taking 10.
But still, that's assuming Cha 10 at least.
Good point on the Survival though. That could probably work as a Knowledge type check.
That still doesn't change the fact that he's asking to do none of this, he's asking for things to just HAPPEN because he wants them to.
I hear you. Nothing like totally misrepresenting a point in hopes for a 'gotcha' moment, when we actually visit this board for constructive ways to make the game work. I can think of plenty of other things to do. (just finished watching 'Poker House', for example)
So what point have I supposedly misrepresented?
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So, like most discussion on the internet, this thread has devolved from a legitimate question, which has received several quite decent answers, and become Rustlemania 2013, where the jimmies are howling with butthurt.
Man, I wish I could still have popcorn. This thread is gold.
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So, like most discussion on the internet, this thread has devolved from a legitimate question, which has received several quite decent answers, and become Rustlemania 2013, where the jimmies are howling with butthurt.
Man, I wish I could still have popcorn. This thread is gold.
That sucks. I'm out, too. :p
I think he meant he could no longer eat popcorn (high blood pressure, cutting down on salt?), not that he was out.
Still, Rustlemania is a phrase I need to keep in my back pocket.
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I think some of you don't want accept that fighters are capable of performing out of combat tasks. It's almost like these people are trying their best keep the fighter down in order to validate their argument.
Don't blame the class if you can't find anything useful to do outside of combat.
In fact...to the point where fighters are incapable of doing what any commoner could do.
In fact...to the point where fighters are incapable of doing what any commoner could do.I think some of you don't want accept that fighters are capable of performing out of combat tasks. It's almost like these people are trying their best keep the fighter down in order to validate their argument.
Don't blame the class if you can't find anything useful to do outside of combat.
Commoners can't do anything that is why adventurers make so much money.
You know here's one thing I like to point out. Use Rope.
That use to be a skill. That used to be one of the better skills in 3.X. Now no 'has' that skill and yet everyone can still tie knots and use grappling hooks. Weird right?
In fact...to the point where fighters are incapable of doing what any commoner could do.I think some of you don't want accept that fighters are capable of performing out of combat tasks. It's almost like these people are trying their best keep the fighter down in order to validate their argument.
Don't blame the class if you can't find anything useful to do outside of combat.
I think you got it backwards. Fighter CAN do stuff out of combat, but so can commoners.
The real problem is that more often than not, Fighters can't do it any better than commoners, unless they put a disproportionately high amount of effort and resources when compared to any other class.I wasn't cheating with the Diplomacy check example. I merely used RAW from PFSRD. If you houserule it to work differently, no problem, your game, your rules! But by RAW (which is the standard we should use in a forum discussion, since we don't know/use/like each other's houserules and gameplay styles), the Fighter wouldn't do it any better than any other commoner.
I've built Fighters that are very useful out of combat. I've played them and also seen them being played by more skilled players.
Still, it does take a lot more effort/investment than any other class.
There is no Fighter/Rogue/Monk/Whatever hate here. Acknowledging a class' weaknesses is not hate. It's realism.
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In fact...to the point where fighters are incapable of doing what any commoner could do.I think some of you don't want accept that fighters are capable of performing out of combat tasks. It's almost like these people are trying their best keep the fighter down in order to validate their argument.
Don't blame the class if you can't find anything useful to do outside of combat.
I think you got it backwards. Fighter CAN do stuff out of combat, but so can commoners.
The real problem is that more often than not, Fighters can't do any better than commoner, unless they put a disproportionately high amount of effort and resources when compared to any other class.I wasn't cheating with the Diplomacy check example. I merely used RAW from PFSRD. If you houserule it to work differently, no problem, your game, your rules! But by RAW (which is the standard we should use in a forum discussion, since we don't know/use/like each other's houserules and gameplay styles), the Fighter wouldn't do it any better than any other commoner.
I've built Fighters that are very useful out of combat. I've played them and also seen them being played by more skilled players.
Still, it does take a lot more effort/investment than any other class.
My response did not include anything a commoner with reasonable knowledge (NOBODY lives in a vacuum) couldn't do.
My response did not include anything a commoner with reasonable knowledge (NOBODY lives in a vacuum) couldn't do.
Which's exactly my point.
A commoner would also be able to get some commonly known information, and he would also fail to get specific knowledge.
Actually, he might even do a little better since he'd probably get bonus for living in the town, and having at least some people with a Friendly (or even Helpful) attitude towards him, but that is a different story...
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In fact...to the point where fighters are incapable of doing what any commoner could do.I think some of you don't want accept that fighters are capable of performing out of combat tasks. It's almost like these people are trying their best keep the fighter down in order to validate their argument.
Don't blame the class if you can't find anything useful to do outside of combat.
I think you got it backwards. Fighter CAN do stuff out of combat, but so can commoners.
The real problem is that more often than not, Fighters can't do it any better than commoners, unless they put a disproportionately high amount of effort and resources when compared to any other class.I wasn't cheating with the Diplomacy check example. I merely used RAW from PFSRD. If you houserule it to work differently, no problem, your game, your rules! But by RAW (which is the standard we should use in a forum discussion, since we don't know/use/like each other's houserules and gameplay styles), the Fighter wouldn't do it any better than any other commoner.
I've built Fighters that are very useful out of combat. I've played them and also seen them being played by more skilled players.
Still, it does take a lot more effort/investment than any other class.
There is no Fighter/Rogue/Monk/Whatever hate here. Acknowledging a class' weaknesses is not hate. It's realism.
To be quite honest.
Who gives a rats ass if the commoner can do stuff outside if combat? Because of everyone having skills and access to feats, everyone has the ability.
So what? I'm not the kind of player who whines if I'm not the only one that can do something. I don't have to have snowflake abilities.
To be quite honest.
Who gives a rats ass if the commoner can do stuff outside if combat? Because of everyone having skills and access to feats, everyone has the ability.
So what? I'm not the kind of player who whines if I'm not the only one that can do something. I don't have to have snowflake abilities.
So...? Your point?
I hope nobody is picking a class called "Fighter" and get surprised when he is the best at fighting, and not so good at things that are NOT fighting.
Also, there is a distinct difference between "Able to do" and "excel". A fighter EXCELS at very little out of combat. Because he excels at combat.
A cavalier is better at social stuff and horse shenanigans, but an inferior combatant except in his narrow field of expertise (mounted combat)
A paladin is better at casting and defending himself, and defeating the boss monsters if they are evil. A well made fighter does similar damage to everything.
A ranger does tons of outdoorsy things, but in a fight with a fighter, even when matched with someone of similar expertise (archer vs archer), the fighter pulls out ahead.
A barbarian has his peak moments where he does more damage to everything else, but then again, everything else hits him back. Some more skills, but not enough to stand out as a skill dude.
I want to give honorable mention to the sorcerer. If built towards a theme (elemental damage etc) he is very much like the fighter. Especially on lower levels. He has next to no skills, and outside his spells, which until a certain point usually revolve around combat, he is mostly worthless. He is dependent on charisma, and has next to no skills supporting said stat, and when you have given priority to dex and con, you can start considering int. But most likely it will not be GOOD, so he is about as skilled as the fighter.
I hope nobody is picking a class called "Fighter" and get surprised when he is the best at fighting, and not so good at things that are NOT fighting.
Also, there is a distinct difference between "Able to do" and "excel". A fighter EXCELS at very little out of combat. Because he excels at combat.
I disagree.
But there are other threads where I've elaborated on that multiple times now.
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I hope nobody is picking a class called "Fighter" and get surprised when he is the best at fighting, and not so good at things that are NOT fighting.
Also, there is a distinct difference between "Able to do" and "excel". A fighter EXCELS at very little out of combat. Because he excels at combat.
The problem is that Fighters do not excel that much at fighting, but they are that bad out of combat.
Fighters don't excel at fighting. They excel at full-attacking targets that won't move. Unfortunately for them, there's more to combat than DPR.
But even if Fighter truly are above all other martials in combat, they're not so much better that it compensates for their lack of options outside of combat. Unless you're playing in a campaign that goes like a Final Fight/Streets of Rage game, where you move foward, kill stuff and repeat, Fighters lag behind.
Being good in combat should not be a excuse to make a class bad at everything else. Barbarians have 4 skill points per level and they don't step on anyone's toes...
A cavalier is better at social stuff and horse shenanigans, but an inferior combatant except in his narrow field of expertise (mounted combat)
I know nothing about Cavaliers and I don't care about them either, so I'm not commenting on this one...
A paladin is better at casting and defending himself, and defeating the boss monsters if they are evil. A well made fighter does similar damage to everything.
A ranger does tons of outdoorsy things, but in a fight with a fighter, even when matched with someone of similar expertise (archer vs archer), the fighter pulls out ahead.
A barbarian has his peak moments where he does more damage to everything else, but then again, everything else hits him back. Some more skills, but not enough to stand out as a skill dude.
Again, "higher DPR" is not the same as "better at fighting", the reason those classes are (IMO) more effective than Fighters is that they have many more options out of combat and, very often, in combat as well.
I want to give honorable mention to the sorcerer. If built towards a theme (elemental damage etc) he is very much like the fighter. Especially on lower levels. He has next to no skills, and outside his spells, which until a certain point usually revolve around combat, he is mostly worthless. He is dependent on charisma, and has next to no skills supporting said stat, and when you have given priority to dex and con, you can start considering int. But most likely it will not be GOOD, so he is about as skilled as the fighter.
True, but that's a very poorly built Sorcerer. You have to go out of your way to make a Sorc that much of a one-trick pony.
With Fighters, OTOH, you have to go out of your way to be good at anything other than hitting stuff with your sword.
A Sorcerer, even a blast-focused Sorcerer, can simply grab a few utility spells of lower levels and keep his most powerful ones focused on Blasting. Protection From Evil, Grease, Mount, Vanish, Silent Image, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages and Animate Rope are all 1st level spells that any blaster Sorc can take without any effort or investment and still keep his focus. Hell, Detect Magic and Prestidigitation alone already make sorcerers more versatile than Fighters,
And let's not forget that there are a bunch of tricks that offer plenty of options, like Summoning or Mind Control. A sorcerer specialized in one of those still has a bunch of options. Not to mention they need considerably less gold to function and don't even have to roll UMD to use a bunch of magic wands!
Then again, comparing Fighters to a full caster, even a Cha-based spontaneous full caster with few spells known, is a bit unfair...
I'm always hesitant to play a fighter, because even in Pathfinder I find that I don't have any abilities that allow me to perform out of combat. Anyone have any solutions to shore up a fighter's usefulness out of combat? Any feats that might allow some utility?
You can role-play, interact with the environment around your character just like anyone else.
Fighters have interests just like anyone else, they may be more martial in subject matter, but they still have interests. So you can go shopping for a new sword, you can go to a pub or bar, you can try to get hired on as a mercenary or guard somewhere between adventures while your party mage is stuck in a tower researching how to create a new spell. You are ONLY limited by YOUR own imagination on what you can do with any character class. Just because you have few actual skill points, doesn't mean that you are useless, think outside the box my friend.
I'm always hesitant to play a fighter, because even in Pathfinder I find that I don't have any abilities that allow me to perform out of combat. Anyone have any solutions to shore up a fighter's usefulness out of combat? Any feats that might allow some utility?You can role-play, interact with the environment around your character just like anyone else.
Fighters have interests just like anyone else, they may be more martial in subject matter, but they still have interests. So you can go shopping for a new sword, you can go to a pub or bar, you can try to get hired on as a mercenary or guard somewhere between adventures while your party mage is stuck in a tower researching how to create a new spell. You are ONLY limited by YOUR own imagination on what you can do with any character class. Just because you have few actual skill points, doesn't mean that you are useless, think outside the box my friend.
I figured I'd highlight the keywords again.
Yes, everyone can RP and do stuff.
No, that does not make those things useful to the party.
There's nothing stopping a fighter from grabbing any of the crafting feats (we all know they have the most feats in the game), so why not utilize those, make some money creating masterwork armor and weapons. He can make things for his party too, they'd love him for it especially if he gives them discounts on these items. That's pretty utility if you ask me.
If you got really great rolls or a high point buy, you can bump up your CHA and be the face of the party. Put some points into diplomacy and/or intimidate and be the one who threatens or eloquently speaks to NPC's to try to learn more information or get things for the party.
I just don't get the fighter hate is all, I love my fighter/barbarian and I do all sorts of things outside of combat that are good for my character and my party. Also a good GM will never say "no" to you, it's the GM's job to come up with things that are going on in the world and the player's job to interact with it. Whether that means they are visiting the local pub and getting drunk every time they come into a town/city or if they are trying to convince a lord that he should become a knight of his realm.
Again, it's totally up to each individual player on how they want to play their character(s). If someone can't think beyond a fighter being a big dumb sword wielding caveman, that's fine they can play that character, but there are plenty of other ways that PC's can be played that don't need a bunch of magic, special items, tons of feats, or limitless skills to do.
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I'm always hesitant to play a fighter, because even in Pathfinder I find that I don't have any abilities that allow me to perform out of combat. Anyone have any solutions to shore up a fighter's usefulness out of combat? Any feats that might allow some utility?You can role-play, interact with the environment around your character just like anyone else.
Fighters have interests just like anyone else, they may be more martial in subject matter, but they still have interests. So you can go shopping for a new sword, you can go to a pub or bar, you can try to get hired on as a mercenary or guard somewhere between adventures while your party mage is stuck in a tower researching how to create a new spell. You are ONLY limited by YOUR own imagination on what you can do with any character class. Just because you have few actual skill points, doesn't mean that you are useless, think outside the box my friend.
I figured I'd highlight the keywords again.
Yes, everyone can RP and do stuff.
No, that does not make those things useful to the party.
It's already been proven over and over and over with many builds on these forums that fighters can perform just fine out of combat and still retain their fighting skills.
How about drop the crusade and discuss something that is actually relevant.