I posted this over on rpg.geekdo.com, but thought I'd cross-post to get some feedback here on Paizo's official site. I think my post and the follow-ups reflect that the website either needs to be more informative or an overhaul or.... SOMETHING.
Link is here.
Maybe it's just me, but when I go to their site, I see a ton of product where I'm not quite clear what goes with what. To wit:- Pathfinder Chronicles
- Pathfinder Modules
- Pathfinder Adventure Paths
- Pathfinder Companion
- Pathfinder SocietyI know what a module is. But how do the Chronicles / Society / Companion / etc. fit in here? Are Adventure Paths simply multi-part modules or what? Are all of these compatible with Pathfinder or 3.5E? Sounds like a conversion from 3.5E is a no-brainer, but I'd like to know in advance what I'm getting.
It also looks like they have a variety of "subscriptions" where you automatically "get" new product. Is this simply guaranteeing you have a spot in the pre-order line or is there something more to it? Additionally, it's not just a single subscription, but multiple subscriptions that are available. I find their site just really isn't that concise in terms of what you can subscribe to and what you get. If anyone out there is a subscriber, can you shed some light on this?
Are any of the other products they have worth it? I'm thinking in particular about the deck of cards for items / treasures / etc. It would be cool, but doesn't sound like *that* much of an improvement over just writing an item on a character sheet. More fluff than crunch I guess I'm thinking. Maybe I'm missing something here.
Thanks!
Some of those questions are addressed in the FAQ (which has a link at the top of the page):
It explains the difference between Pathfinder Chronicles/Modules/Adventure Paths/etc. and what the benefits of a subscription are, for instance.
|
Chronicles are GM-centred sourcebooks.
Companions are player-centred sourcebooks (however, the line did come thru several conceptual shifts and isn't yet fully established).
Modules are standalone adventures.
Adventure Paths are six-part campaigns with every issue containing an adventure and support articles.
Society is the Organised Play system with it's own scenario line (Pathfinder Society Scenarios).
All products prior to August 2009 are 3.5, from then on it's PFRPG.
A subscriber gets his items shipped automatically at the time of release, and gets a free PDF version of the book. Also, subscribers to the Adventure Path get a 15% discount on almost everything.
|
One quick note; if you click on the "My Subscriptions" link at the top of the website, you can see a concise description of the benefits of each subscription.
https://secure.paizo.com/paizo/account/subscriptions
thanks,
sara marie
It also looks like they have a variety of "subscriptions" where you automatically "get" new product. Is this simply guaranteeing you have a spot in the pre-order line or is there something more to it?Are any of the other products they have worth it? I'm thinking in particular about the deck of cards for items / treasures / etc. It would be cool, but doesn't sound like *that* much of an improvement over just writing an item on a character sheet. More fluff than crunch I guess I'm thinking. Maybe I'm missing something here.
Thanks!
Subscribing is like automatically pre-ordering to everything in a given category. So if you find yourself saying "I want to have every module that comes out," then subscribing to the modules line makes sense. Of course, the main subscription they really want you to have is the Adventure Paths, which is why it gives a discount on most anything else you buy from Paizo.
I think part of what makes it more confusing now is the 3.5/Pathfinder divide. It used to be when you clicked on "Find More Chronicles" it would take you to a list of all the products that are in the line. Now it takes you to nearly the same page as "Pathfinder Chronicles Subscription" and you have to click on the Pathfinder category to see what is coming up. I think this list is more helpful to new customers (using chronicles as an example), because a subscription involves getting everything listed under pre-order. Maybe if the main page should the next three pre-order products it would help?
Item cards are probably not that interesting for everyday loot that is going to be sold right away. But for more important items, things that are important to the plot or other nifty items, I think they are neat props. They are totally system independent. I use them in my 4e game for items, printing out the item powers and slipping them into a sleeve with the item. So front side is picture, back side is item powers. I just can't allow myself to write on them.
Adventure Paths are six-part campaigns with every issue containing an adventure and support articles.
And some non-adventure specific material including more detail on Gods than the Gods & Magic book has, a Pathfinder Journal [story] plus some other random articles [eg Dragons of Golarion]. All of which could interest people not running the adventure paths. I would still prefer to see that material in the Chronicle/Companion lines.
As a guy who works in marketing and branding I do think the Pathfinder line is overly complex.
Clearly this is not a problem for people who have experience with gaming-those won over from 3.5, for example. (I love it!)
But for finding new players I'd estimate that this complexity is going to create problems, and I doubt that fixing the Pathfinder page will help.
I guess it depends who you want to sell to.
As a guy who works in marketing and branding I do think the Pathfinder line is overly complex.
Clearly this is not a problem for people who have experience with gaming-those won over from 3.5, for example. (I love it!)
But for finding new players I'd estimate that this complexity is going to create problems, and I doubt that fixing the Pathfinder page will help.
I guess it depends who you want to sell to.
I'm curious, how would you organise the pathfinder line?
|
As a guy who works in marketing and branding I do think the Pathfinder line is overly complex.
Clearly this is not a problem for people who have experience with gaming-those won over from 3.5, for example. (I love it!)
But for finding new players I'd estimate that this complexity is going to create problems, and I doubt that fixing the Pathfinder page will help.
I guess it depends who you want to sell to.
I'm curious, how would you organise the pathfinder line?
I don't know how Krue would organize it but I know I would have first off not called the New RPG rule Pathfinder, That still causes a lot of confusion on the links to Paizo's Golarion Campaign setting and the rules the Campaign uses (I think it is too late to change it now without adding more confusion). The Rules are neutral and you don't need to get the Golarion books to use them. I would have used a neutral name for the RPG rules that is not linked to the campaign setting to not cause the confusion.
Maybe for the Companion I would have used something similar to Players Companion and GM Chronicles to lessen the confusion. I think Adventure Path, Pathfinder Society and Pathfinder modules are descriptive enough names to understand what they are for.
I think the thing that was confusing to me, and the thing that made me wait so long to subscribe, is that when I order, I don't know what I'm going to get until I order it. It's great that when you go through the order process, they ask you what product you wish to start with, but knowing what those choices are before ordering probably would have allowed me to subscribe sooner.
A table with exactly which products, in which order (perhaps dates released for existing, which product is current, and dates expected for upcoming items) for each sub would probably help as well. This way we know clearly which products are associated with which subs.
I love your products guys, you've already made my gaming a better experience. These suggestions are just to try and help make it easier to get your great stuff!
Edit: Yes Vic, that update did help to clear things up a bit. My suggestions above are in addition to that info.
|
|
I don't know how Krue would organize it but I know I would have first off not called the New RPG rule Pathfinder, That still causes a lot of confusion on the links to Paizo's Golarion Campaign setting and the rules the Campaign uses (I think it is too late to change it now without adding more confusion). The Rules are neutral and you don't need to get the Golarion books to use them. I would have used a neutral name for the RPG rules that is not linked to the campaign setting to not cause the confusion.
Well, one of the major factors of TSR's downfall was having gazillion product lines which had no visible link to the main product and at the same time were competing with each other.
Senior Software Developer
|
A table with exactly which products, in which order (perhaps dates released for existing, which product is current, and dates expected for upcoming items) for each sub would probably help as well.
Does the product schedule page help?
Actually, I'm glad they have the cheaper, more or less for players line, because I know a lot of people in my gaming group that have picked up the Companions but aren't as likely to pick up the more expensive Chronicles line.
That having been said, I think probably the most confusing aspect of the line, as I've heard people discuss it, has been the fact that the sourcebook line is two separate lines, rather than the "players" books saying something like "Player's Guide to Andoran," or what have you.
I completely understand making sure the RPG is branded for the setting, i.e. both being called Pathfinder.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
I bought an older pathfinder module figuring it would work with the new rules and it turns out it's 3.5. It should be made clear in product descriptions whether it is designed for old 3.5 or the actual Pathfinder rules.
Justin, you're not alone in that.
I was talking with a dozen of my gamer-geek friends a couple of weeks ago. I had extra copies of the Pathfinder Adventure Path #1 - 6 that I was willing to give away, and asked if anyone were interested.
They all assumed it was for the Pathfinder rules system. Of course they did: the modules have "Pathfinder" right there on the cover. I reassured them that the books were for 3.5, that they didn't need to buy a $50 book to play them, and they were still suspicious.
|
|
Give away? Give away? GIVE AWAY? Chris,man,those things are gold. GOLD!
Goooooollllllddddd!!! You hear me?!
[lifts tail off treasure hoard]
See, there is AP 1 and AP6, right next to 7 and 9. Three parties have come and tried to take them. Thankfully they were not optimized, and thus I repelled them all. MWHAHAHAHA!
Could have definitely used a certain silver dragon's help though.... Just saying....
|
|
I bought an older pathfinder module figuring it would work with the new rules and it turns out it's 3.5. It should be made clear in product descriptions whether it is designed for old 3.5 or the actual Pathfinder rules.Justin, you're not alone in that.
Really guys? I could see this being a problem in a brick and mortar store... but not on here.
http://paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderModules
The 3.5 and Pathfinder modules have been separate for awhile.
Also, all of the 3.5 modules are index based on type. D, J, E, S, etc.
Lastly, all the Pathfinder RPG modules have the Pathfinder RPG logo on the backcover. All 3.5 modules do NOT. The same applies to the adventure paths.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Really guys? I could see this being a problem in a brick and mortar store... but not on here.
The 3.5 and Pathfinder modules have been separate for awhile.
Also, all of the 3.5 modules are index based on type. D, J, E, S, etc.
Lastly, all the Pathfinder RPG modules have the Pathfinder RPG logo on the backcover. All 3.5 modules do NOT. The same applies to the adventure paths.
Howdy, Urza. Happy New Year.
All of what you say is true, but take a look at what, say, Paradigm is planning for its Arcanis reboot. The new game system has a different name from the campaign setting, and all the new products will display the name of the new game system, while the old product line did not.
That's a lot clearer, I think, than whether the modules are designated with a D, J, etc, or whether the name "Pathfinder" is written on both the front and back of the book, or simply on the front.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
I'm talking about my actual experience with the website. My friend that showed me the Pathfinder book didn't even know what I was talking about when I said there's two product lines. He thought their 3.5 stuff was for the Pathfinder players guide because it's not a new system, just a modified 3.5.
It needs to be made much more clear that these are two distinct products for new people. It doesn't matter that veteran Pazio fans know what's going on.
Since the Pathfinder RPG was designed with backwards compatibility with 3.5 in mind, it's very easy to use our 3.5 materials with the Pathfinder RPG, and it's just as easy to use our Pathfinder RPG materials with 3.5.
Nevertheless, the Modules, Adventure Path volumes, and Chronicles designed for use with the Pathfinder RPG have "(PFRPG)" appended to the title on our site, while the ones designed for the 3.5 OGL rules have "(OGL)" appended to the title.
Additionally, the product descriptions should also say whether they're designed for use with the Pathfinder RPG or with the 3.5 edition of the world's oldest roleplaying game.
As a guy who works in marketing and branding I do think the Pathfinder line is overly complex.
Clearly this is not a problem for people who have experience with gaming-those won over from 3.5, for example. (I love it!)
But for finding new players I'd estimate that this complexity is going to create problems, and I doubt that fixing the Pathfinder page will help.
I guess it depends who you want to sell to.
I'm curious, how would you organise the pathfinder line?
Well, I certainly wouldn't design it sitting at my desk and writing a 2 minute post. And I don't have their numbers and I don't have their industry savoir-faire. So not really a question I can answer.
IMHO there are a few good comments in here to start off, and separating the rules and the campaign setting is the best starting point I've heard of.
The problem is this (as I see it and I may be wrong and maybe Vic can respond to the inaccuracies here): Paizo had a great idea--the PF AP magazine. What followed was the tacking of products onto it on a fast paced printing schedule, and to their credit they've done well. They never had the chance, I suppose, to do this whole thing according to a strategic marketing and branding plan. The result is that we have something that looks a like Frankenstein. I say that because it is at times confusing, even irritating, to reference things by flipping through all my PF crap. It lacks unity. It's not well organized. It's pieces of stuff stitched together from all over.
Do I really care? Sometimes you have to put up with this stuff. When you want the real brilliance and real creativity it's not always pretty and streamlined. It's raw. Also I came here in the autumn of the Dragon/Dungeon years and so I am one of the loyal minions of Paizo. Thus, I don't care.
Some kid who comes along and is looking at playing some PF? He'll care. Someone new to the game will care. It's confusing. If I hit the Pathfinder RPG page, I can't imagine what a 16 year old with a few years into games would think, but I do know it probably ain't good.
This is, as I see it, why WotC needs to reboot every few years. Paizo and PF.... we'll see.
Modules: Why have Paizo dropped the codes that were clearly on the front covers?
D > Dungeon
W > Wilderness etc.
|
|
Modules: Why have Paizo dropped the codes that were clearly on the front covers?
Number confusion I think? W1 not having anything to do with W2.. but then jump to the D line and D0, D1, D1.5, and D4 were all an ongoing adventure of sorts.
I'm disappointed Carrion Hill and Mask of the Living God dropped what Crypt of Everflame did. If you look, Crypt subtitled what type of adventure it was on the title page, "A Dungeon Adventure." With Carrion and Mask, they dropped the subtitling which was a HUGE disappointment since I can't organize them anymore.
|
|
The result is that we have something that looks a like Frankenstein. I say that because it is at times confusing, even irritating, to reference things by flipping through all my PF crap. It lacks unity. It's not well organized. It's pieces of stuff stitched together from all over.
Are you kidding me, I love that! That's one of the best parts of researching stuff for a Realms campaign, having to break out the 5 different source books that contain info on the topic from the different editions and going at it!
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
Are you kidding me, I love that! That's one of the best parts of researching stuff for a Realms campaign, having to break out the 5 different source books that contain info on the topic from the different editions and going at it!
Have I mentioned before how much we could use someone of your sensibilities on the PathfinderWiki? Yes? Well, let me say it again. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
|
|
Are you kidding me, I love that! That's one of the best parts of researching stuff for a Realms campaign, having to break out the 5 different source books that contain info on the topic from the different editions and going at it!Have I mentioned before how much we could use someone of your sensibilities on the PathfinderWiki? Yes? Well, let me say it again. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
Mayhaps. I'm currently having something in the cooker, if it works out I may be involved in my own little Pathfinder project that doesn't infringe on Paizo's IP. :)
The result is that we have something that looks a like Frankenstein. I say that because it is at times confusing, even irritating, to reference things by flipping through all my PF crap. It lacks unity. It's not well organized. It's pieces of stuff stitched together from all over.Are you kidding me, I love that! That's one of the best parts of researching stuff for a Realms campaign, having to break out the 5 different source books that contain info on the topic from the different editions and going at it!
Had I the free time to devote to this hobby I'm sure I'd agree with you. But the point is when you sell something you need to think of all the different kinds of people who buy your stuff. Which I'm sure you can appreciate.
...Have I mentioned before how much we could use someone of your sensibilities on the PathfinderWiki? Yes? Well, let me say it again. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
Strangely, that wiki is blocked by the Great Firewall of China. I've never seen it.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
I've updated the main Pathfinder page. Does that help?
I think that should help a lot for new visitors to the site.
Wow. Yah. Much better.
Wow. Yah. Much better.
Except this: it took me a while to figure out that the PFRPG logo link on the left and the Pathfinder(tm) link on the menu are different.
The most confusion I have is deciphering the anagrams folks cook up when they're refferring to products. But that's a problem on every message board, not one specific to Pathfinder.
|
I'm new to this website and it was not made very clear that Pathfinder is both a new rules system and a campaign world. This was a very poor choice. I bought an older pathfinder module figuring it would work with the new rules and it turns out it's 3.5. It should be made clear in product descriptions whether it is designed for old 3.5 or the actual Pathfinder rules.
I don't know why some people act like 3.5 to PFRPG conversion is such a hard, lengthy process. Even a complete conversion is fairly straightforward. But even that is fairly unnecessary. The differences just aren't enough for me to do all that. You don't need to take every NPC and rebuild him from the ground up as a PFRPG character. Just substitute a few skills (stealth for move silently, etc), calculate CMB and CMD, and you're converted. The ogre has slightly different stats in the bestiary? Don't care...I'm gonna use what is in the module, it's just easier.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Kthulhu
I don't want to derail this thread, but ... Jason deliberately gave every race and most classes a boost in power as they moved from 3.5 to Pathfinder. I tried running "Crypt of the Everflame" for a pretty savvy party of four 1st-Level characters under the 3.5 rules, where wizards get 4 hit points instead of 7, clerics do not have positive energy channeling, and rogues cannot sneak attack undead. After the second TPK, we decided it was too tough.
Pathfinder characters are simply tougher than their 3.5 analogues.
A table with exactly which products, in which order (perhaps dates released for existing, which product is current, and dates expected for upcoming items) for each sub would probably help as well.Does the product schedule page help?
Gary, it does indeed help. Don't get me wrong, all the information is here on the site, and this is a new bit I hadn't seen before. But I'm still having to look at this and do a little more digging to see which of the items on that page come with which sub. Putting this information together with bits and pieces elsewhere will eventually get me where I'm going, but I'm afraid new customers to the site will get tired of looking and head elsewhere.
Regardless, I still plan to continue purchasing and using your stuff. Even if I have to dig a little, it's well worth it and I tell others about Pathfinder all the time.
EDIT: Well that's what I get for a cursory look. Ignore my comments above. It may not be in table format on that link, but it's all there. Thanks a ton!
Well, I certainly wouldn't design it sitting at my desk and writing a 2 minute post. And I don't have their numbers and I don't have their industry savoir-faire. So not really a question I can answer.
pha, if only I could write a two minute post with as much thought and content as this one ;)
The result is that we have something that looks a like Frankenstein. I say that because it is at times confusing, even irritating, to reference things by flipping through all my PF crap. It lacks unity. It's not well organized. It's pieces of stuff stitched together from all over.
I see what you're saying. I think the 6-part AP's have all the content you need to run a campaign set in Golarion. A 16-year old should probably start there. The rest is extraneous.
I'm not sure what Paizo is doing to communicate this. The website could probably be more clear than it is right now, although it's probably a tricky thing to do well without making the site hard to navigate for returning customers. The brick and mortar stores have a big role here I suppose.
ps: post time: about 10 minutes.
|
|
Chris Mortika:
Of course the PCs should be fully converted. I never meant to imply that. But I'm saying that the modules themselves don't need to be fully converted. You'll probably only run a module once with any given gaming group, but the majority of people re-use characters for quite a few gaming sessions. Converting a module fully adds to the already fairly hefty DM load. Converting characters can be done by players, then just a quick review by the DM.
|
|
I've updated the main Pathfinder page. Does that help?I think that should help a lot for new visitors to the site.
Wow. Yah. Much better.Except this: it took me a while to figure out that the PFRPG logo link on the left and the Pathfinder(tm) link on the menu are different.
I think a greater separation of Paizo.com and the Pathfinder line -separate focus on selling Pathfinder as a brand and selling Pathfinder products through a store- would help make the maze of links easier to navigate. A Pathfinder website with a little information and just two links on the front page: Pathfinder RPG; Pathfinder Chronicles (or some catch-all name for the lines relating to the campaign setting). From there new fans can get just the facts about the different parts of the game. It would also mean only one type of "Pathfinder" link needs to show up on Paizo.com, the one that links to the Pathfinder site. Unfortunately, this is Pathfinder.com and a derivative like PathfinderRPG.com would confuse things.
I'm certainly not against any kind of clarifications that Paizo might want to make to better market their products, but it does occur to me that when the RPG hobby was at its height, we had Advanced Dungeons and Dragons living along side Dungeons and Dragons, both different games that weren't really compatible, but were similar . . . and yet tons of people made it into the hobby then.
Again, is not that Paizo should be intentionally obtuse in marketing, butI think that we're almost brainstorming how to market Pathfinder to the masses, when in all honesty, its got a long way to go before we're worrying about whether Saturday morning cartoon ads will confuse kids about what product they are buying.
The Paizo folks have said before that tying the modules to the Pathfinder brand helped, and they have to deal with the realities of now, not the theoretical hordes of people that aren't even in the hobby yet that might get confused.
@Chef's Slaad.
Yah. A good start up package would be to get the core rules (if you don't have 3.5) and start an AP subscription. But right now that idea would kind of get lost in the muddle I think unless you put it in a strobing banner on the mainpage. I think it would be better to have everything together and organic.
I'm sure this discussion will get our little Paizo buddies thinking about how to present everything in the PF line really clearly without the maze (if they're not already), and they're probably also thinking to give someone new here an immediate opener to the system.... right Vic?
My take is that doing this kind of thing sounds easy... but it's not. I've mapped and storyboarded a bunch of sites in the last year and and it takes some time, some brilliant ideas, some going back and forth, and some usability tests.... at times it was even maddening.
The Paizo folks have said before that tying the modules to the Pathfinder brand helped, and they have to deal with the realities of now, not the theoretical hordes of people that aren't even in the hobby yet that might get confused.
On the other hand, planning ahead never hurts.
On the other hand, planning ahead never hurts.
No, you're right, my statement was a little more blunt than I wanted it to be. I guess my point was that there has to be a balance between a broad marketing plan and a specific approach marketed at people that are already gamers.
I'm certainly not against any kind of clarifications that Paizo might want to make to better market their products, but it does occur to me that when the RPG hobby was at its height, we had Advanced Dungeons and Dragons living along side Dungeons and Dragons, both different games that weren't really compatible, but were similar . . . and yet tons of people made it into the hobby then.
This is one of the reasons I never got into the earlier editions. I wasn't sure what went with what and being introvert, especially when I was younger, didn't make me want to ask clerks. Of course the internet now makes it much easier to find out this information.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
I'm sure this discussion will get our little Paizo buddies thinking about how to present everything in the PF line really clearly without the maze (if they're not already), and they're probably also thinking to give someone new here an immediate opener to the system.... right Vic?
My take is that doing this kind of thing sounds easy... but it's not. I've mapped and storyboarded a bunch of sites in the last year and and it takes some time, some brilliant ideas, some going back and forth, and some usability tests.... at times it was even maddening.
It's compounded by the fact that we have several distinct audiences for the site, and thus many different goals and strategies, some of which are fairly contradictory.
Frankly, though, now that Gary's polished off gift options and lists—two things that have been in the works for literally years—our new priority for him is improving searching and browsing. We have some good tech and some good ideas, but it'll take some time to get things together.
Once it's easier to find what you want—and, equally importantly, get the stuff you don't want out of your face—then we can worry a bit more about refining what you see when you get there.
and yet tons of people made it into the hobby then.
Well, a ton of people is like 5 guys in this hobby, so that doesn't say much ;-P
Well, a ton of people is like 5 guys in this hobby, so that doesn't say much ;-P
Or about nine of me, since I don't weigh nearly as much as those five guys.
Well, a ton of people is like 5 guys in this hobby, so that doesn't say much ;-P
He ain't heavy, he's our barbarian?
|
|
A table with exactly which products, in which order (perhaps dates released for existing, which product is current, and dates expected for upcoming items) for each sub would probably help as well.Does the product schedule page help?
Is there a direct link to this page from the home page?