In another thread, THIS thread, to be exact, an enlightened poster suggested that perhaps evolution points could be used for an alchemist's mutagens, the same way they are used for a summoner's eidolon.
Tonight, my group playtested this idea.
The party consisted of 4 characters. Am elven rogue, human barbarian, and two human alchemists (on RAW and the other using the proposed system, gaining evo points equal to 1/2 level). Stats were 17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10 assigned where chosen. Playtest started at level 4.
Level 4 mutagens:
RAW Mutagen:
+2 Con
+2 Natural Armor
2 Claws
Bite
Variant:
+2 Con
+4 Natural Armor (evolution)
Fire Resistance 5
As they started off, the barbarian and rogue kinda dominated the majority of the dungeon. There really wasn't much for either of the alchemists to do. In combat, the RAW alchemist pretty much kept out of the way. Even after drinking the mutagen, he really couldn't do much damage. The variant alchemist managed to wade into combat against a half-red dragon dracolisk, if only for a couple of rounds, whereas the RAW alchemist only got of one series of attacks before retreating.
After a few encounters, we tried lvl 8.
Level 8 mutagens:
RAW:
+4 Con
+2 Str
+2 Natural Armor
2 Claws
Bite
Variant:
+2 Con
+2 Natural Armor
Flight
Fire Immunity
Here, we saw a huge change. The RAW alchemist became a competent fighter, holding his own in most of the fights. The variant became a competent fighter, but for a wholly different reason. The ability to fly above the combat and drop bombs on his enemies made for a great tactic. It was easily worked around when I needed to give an enemy a slight boost, just by lowering the ceiling. Other combinations were mentioned as possibilities, after the session ended.
To be fair, I did kind of push the guys to use their mutagens. I mean, that WAS the purpose of the playtest, to see how the proposed system worked against the current one.
Results:
The variant system, taking no discoveries, was no more powerful than the RAW system with discoveries. It made the mutagen system poyentially a bit more powerful, but the big thing we saw was the level scaling. The evolutions scaled similar to the bombs and formulae, making them MUCH more useful. Furthermore, the versatility of being able to change the evolutions you wish to take every day (just like choosing spells) made sense. We all got a laugh when the mutagen made the one alchemist grow wings, as well.
I dunno if Jason or the other devs will give this so much as a second's glance, much less serious thought, but we did find that it was a great idea and worked really well. Sure, it made mutagens more powerful, but one of the huge complaints about mutagens I keep seeing is that they're underpowered. Making them scale by level and improvable with discoveries (like the other 2 major class features) would bring the mutagens, and the alchemist, to a better standing.
We'll be continuing this playtest later this week, going on the 12th and 16th level. If we get to do a 20th level playtest, it'll be this week or next week.
-Odentin
Interesting. That's cool that you did that!
I think I'd want to see how a wizard and sorceror would have done in the same scenario in terms of damage output, etc. Did you happen to track any damage details? (The wizard or sorceror at L8 would be able to cast fly and to throw 8d6 fireballs, for example.)
How would you suggest putting the discoveries into the new system without making it too powerful? Mutagens seem to be cool and more powerful now, but how will it work if the alchemist focuses on mutagens and makes them more powerful with his her discoveries. And how many evolution points would you suggest giving for each discovery? maybe you could try playtesting this too. You could also not allow the alchemist to take the
size increases without taking a special discovery because those right now would be the big power boosters.
So basically how would you change the discoveries to fit with the evolution system?
I am not very good at balancing things out and I don't really have a group right now to playtest with, so I would not really trust my own judgement on these matters; I just think using evolutions is a cool idea.
How would you suggest putting the discoveries into the new system without making it too powerful? Mutagens seem to be cool and more powerful now, but how will it work if the alchemist focuses on mutagens and makes them more powerful with his her discoveries. And how many evolution points would you suggest giving for each discovery? maybe you could try playtesting this too. You could also not allow the alchemist to take the
size increases without taking a special discovery because those right now would be the big power boosters.So basically how would you change the discoveries to fit with the evolution system?
I am not very good at balancing things out and I don't really have a group right now to playtest with, so I would not really trust my own judgement on these matters; I just think using evolutions is a cool idea.
As in the other thread, my suggestion was for the base mutagen to grant 2 evolution points, and then have a discovery you can take any number of times which adds 2 evolution points to your total. Taking nothing but that advancement, you'll end up with a maximum of 12 EP at level 20. If you only permit evolutions within the normal eidolon level limits, things stay pretty well contained (in fact, you're often behind the curve of the base mutagen).
As for the size bonuses: Yes, they provide a significant yield on ep investment. Balancing that is really a matter that should be resolved on the eidolon side of things, because it's just as unbalanced for them.
As things stand, a Large alchemist is still stuck with his middle BAB and d8 HD, so he'll only ever be a middling-scary combat monster, and for that, he'll have a huge target on him.
There is, of course, some pollution of concepts - the weapon proficiency and spell-like ability evolutions just don't make sense on a mutagen.
How would you suggest putting the discoveries into the new system without making it too powerful? Mutagens seem to be cool and more powerful now, but how will it work if the alchemist focuses on mutagens and makes them more powerful with his her discoveries. And how many evolution points would you suggest giving for each discovery? maybe you could try playtesting this too. You could also not allow the alchemist to take the
size increases without taking a special discovery because those right now would be the big power boosters.So basically how would you change the discoveries to fit with the evolution system?
I am not very good at balancing things out and I don't really have a group right now to playtest with, so I would not really trust my own judgement on these matters; I just think using evolutions is a cool idea.
We discussed that, as well. Right now, RAW, the mutagens lag FAR behind the other two class abilities, which can only be made more powerful through discoveries, leaving mutagens in the dust. Or you could spend your discoveries making your mutagens a viable class feature. With what we used, mutagens scaled right along with bombs and extracts, so that all three class features are viable.
Now, as for discoveries, we discussed the possibility of being granted more evo points, or unlocking certain more powerful evo's (large and huge, for example; or SLA, which I didn't allow them to take at all). Also, just adding such discoveries to the ones that already exist. Feral mutagen + evo points would turn someone into a real monster.
As in the other thread, my suggestion was for the base mutagen to grant 2 evolution points, and then have a discovery you can take any number of times which adds 2 evolution points to your total. Taking nothing but that advancement, you'll end up with a maximum of 12 EP at level 20. If you only permit evolutions within the normal eidolon level limits, things stay pretty well contained (in fact, you're often behind the curve of the base mutagen).
As for the size bonuses: Yes, they provide a significant yield on ep investment. Balancing that is really a matter that should be resolved on the eidolon side of things, because it's just as unbalanced for them.
As things stand, a Large alchemist is still stuck with his middle BAB and d8 HD, so he'll only ever be a middling-scary combat monster, and for that, he'll have a huge target on him.
There is, of course, some pollution of concepts - the weapon proficiency and spell-like ability evolutions just don't make sense on a mutagen.
Making evo points a discovery leaves the alchemist right where he is now, with a lagging class ability that can only be made competent through discoveries. We considered the discovery method, but found that what was used worked smoother.
We didn't encounter the large or huge evolutions in this first session, but I'm hoping to see at least one in the next playtest session. Can't force it on my players, though. The issue of balance with the eidolons is for other threads, however.
I did not allow my players to take the SLA or weapon proficiency evolutions. They don't make sense, you're right. I also prohibited supernatural flight.
You're level 8 RAW Alchemist was built wrong. You can't get Greater Mutagen until 12th level. It requires 2 previous discoveries. He would have still had the base +2 ?Stat? +2 Nat armor, 2 claws, bite, and +2 Intimidate if he had taken Feral Mutagen.
You're level 8 RAW Alchemist was built wrong. You can't get Greater Mutagen until 12th level. It requires 2 previous discoveries. He would have still had the base +2 ?Stat? +2 Nat armor.
Hmm, really? I'll have to talk to my player about that. Thank you.
It's one of my biggest gripes with Mutagen. Except for adding Feral it remains completely unchanged until 12th level.
Also I'm curious if your mini-dungeon crawl was back to back fights or if it involved any kind of searching, looting, trap finding, taking 10 or 20's. It's important to keep that in mind at level 4 since Mutagen only lasts 10 minutes /level and you only get 1 dose unless you pick up Infuse Mutagen
It's one of my biggest gripes with Mutagen. Except for adding Feral it remains completely unchanged until 12th level.
Also I'm curious if your mini-dungeon crawl was back to back fights or if it involved any kind of searching, looting, trap finding, taking 10 or 20's. It's important to keep that in mind at level 4 since Mutagen only lasts 10 minutes /level and you only get 1 dose unless you pick up Infuse Mutagen
To be honest, it was both. There was either a trap or fight in each room or hallway. No looting, but plenty of trapfinding. The rogue searched every door and every room for traps. I was keeping track of time and the mutagens did not wear out.
You're level 8 RAW Alchemist was built wrong. You can't get Greater Mutagen until 12th level. It requires 2 previous discoveries. He would have still had the base +2 ?Stat? +2 Nat armor.Hmm, really? I'll have to talk to my player about that. Thank you.
Really highlights how painfully bad Mutagen is right now, I think.
I'm intrigued to see your higher level playtests.
Really highlights how painfully bad Mutagen is right now, I think.You're level 8 RAW Alchemist was built wrong. You can't get Greater Mutagen until 12th level. It requires 2 previous discoveries. He would have still had the base +2 ?Stat? +2 Nat armor.Hmm, really? I'll have to talk to my player about that. Thank you.
It really, really does. Without that, the alchemist would have been sitting back for most of the combat encounters with his thumb up his ass.
I'm intrigued to see your higher level playtests.
Trust me, so am I. Especially because I have more prep time this week.
Making evo points a discovery leaves the alchemist right where he is now, with a lagging class ability that can only be made competent through discoveries. We considered the discovery method, but found that what was used worked smoother.
We didn't encounter the large or huge evolutions in this first session, but I'm hoping to see at least one in the next playtest session. Can't force it on my players, though. The issue of balance with the eidolons is for other threads, however.
I did not allow my players to take the SLA or weapon proficiency evolutions. They don't make sense, you're right. I also prohibited supernatural flight.
I suppose you're right about the lagging ability. As it's currently configured, I'd sooner move the entire ability into discoveries, but if it must be core, then it really ought to still require some character investment (discoveries) to reach it's full potential.
I mean, size increases are just *ridiculous*. Even before items and other spell effects, you're going to have a lot of level 12 alchemists with +16 to strength, +8 to con, and +11 to natural armor.
My point isn't that they shouldn't be able to do that if it's their specialty, but if it's completely incidental to their actual focus, it's a bit too powerful.
Actually, looking at those numbers, it may be too potent anyhow.
It really, really does. Without that, the alchemist would have been sitting back for most of the combat encounters with his thumb up his ass.
I'm glad to hear from other people who want the alchemist to be able to shine on his own, rather than play squire/cohort/potion dispenser to the rest of the party.
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The variant system, taking no discoveries, was no more powerful than the RAW system with discoveries.
I just want to be clear, you had the characters make these characters without the discoveries?
If this is the case, would you feel allowing discoveries would be too powerful, or would just need some scaling back?
I suppose you're right about the lagging ability. As it's currently configured, I'd sooner move the entire ability into discoveries, but if it must be core, then it really ought to still require some character investment (discoveries) to reach it's full potential.I mean, size increases are just *ridiculous*. Even before items and other spell effects, you're going to have a lot of level 12 alchemists with +16 to strength, +8 to con, and +11 to natural armor.
My point isn't that they shouldn't be able to do that if it's their specialty, but if it's completely incidental to their actual focus, it's a bit too powerful.
Actually, looking at those numbers, it may be too potent anyhow.
If the size increases are allowed, the alchemist runs into the same problem that the eidolon does, in being potentially unable to fit through some dungeons. Now, obviously, one could argue that because the mutagen isn't permanent, so it's less of a restriction, but considering how long it takes to prepare a new one, being forced to dismiss the effect in order to get through a door could be a death toll to the alchemist's combat ability.
A single dungeon door or passage too small to fit a large or huge creature followed by a decent combat encounter SHOULD be enough to force any player to think very carefully about where they are and where they will be going before choosing the size evolutions.
Still, I agree that the size increases could be problematic, especially with small alchemists. Perhaps they SHOULD be relegated to discoveries. We'll see what happens this weekend.
The variant system, taking no discoveries, was no more powerful than the RAW system with discoveries.I just want to be clear, you had the characters make these characters without the discoveries?
If this is the case, would you feel allowing discoveries would be too powerful, or would just need some scaling back?
I allowed the RAW alchemist to take discoveries, but asked him only to take those that enhance the mutagens. The variant alchemist I asked to take none, to see how it balanced out.
I allowed the RAW alchemist to take discoveries, but asked him only to take those that enhance the mutagens. The variant alchemist I asked to take none, to see how it balanced out.
So basically he was using his discoveries for the Evo Mutagen in that case.
So basically he was using his discoveries for the Evo Mutagen in that case.
I allowed the RAW alchemist to take discoveries, but asked him only to take those that enhance the mutagens. The variant alchemist I asked to take none, to see how it balanced out.
I guess it could be seen as such, yes.
One of my goals with this playtest was to see just how powerful an alchemist FOCUSING on his mutagens would fare alongside one who wasn't. Since mutagens are, as they stand, vastly underpowered, I wanted to see if an alchemist using the proposed system could keep up, mutagen wise, with his own class abilities. Discoveries would have skewed that.
Both alchemists in my playtest were slightly behind the other characters. Had I allowed the Evo Alchemist to take discoveries, it is my belief that he would have been on par with the other two. The RAW alchemist, on the other hand, was at his peak (and actually, due to my mistake, above the power his level should have afforded him) and STILL lagging behind, noticeably. That is just how underpowered mutagens are now, and with the Evo system in place, all of the class abilities would scale evenly with level, and the one or two on which the alchemist chooses to focus become even better.
I'll make sure I can run at least one round of playtesting this week with the Evo Alchemist choosing discoveries. That'll probably be without the other alchemist in the party, depending on how the data look after all is said and done. We shall see.
One thing I see brought up is the mention of being able to change your size. What if this was built into the discoveries to limit it to an alchemist who specializes. Also a clause for when you can change your mutagen "formula"
When an alchemist levels they may refine their mutagen formula adding new abilities or scrapping the whole thing for a new mutagen entirely. Aside from this an alchemist prepares their mutagen with the same effects from day to day.
Feral Mutagen - Gain 2 Evo points and natural attacks, if you already have natural attacks pick one and increase it's damage die by one step. You many now select 2-point evolutions
Greater Mutagen - Requires 1 previous Discoveries. Gain 3 Evo points and you may now select the 3-point evolutions.
Grant Mutagen - Requires 3 previous Discoveries. Gain 4 Evo points and you may now select from the 4-point evolution.
Infuse Mutagen - You may spend 1,000 gp in rare ingredients and 2 Int ability damage to create an infused Mutagen. These persist on their own and are not rendered inert when the alchemist creates a new one. The extra effort used to create these mutagens also allows the alchemist to prepare them with a different formula and as such they may be tailored with different Evo point expenditures.
One thing I see brought up is the mention of being able to change your size. What if this was built into the discoveries to limit it to an alchemist who specializes. Also a clause for when you can change your mutagen "formula"
When an alchemist levels they may refine their mutagen formula adding new abilities or scrapping the whole thing for a new mutagen entirely. Aside from this an alchemist prepares their mutagen with the same effects from day to day.Feral Mutagen - Gain 2 Evo points and natural attacks, if you already have natural attacks pick one and increase it's damage die by one step. You many now select 2-point evolutions
Greater Mutagen - Requires 1 previous Discoveries. Gain 3 Evo points and you may now select the 3-point evolutions.
Grant Mutagen - Requires 3 previous Discoveries. Gain 4 Evo points and you may now select from the 4-point evolution.
Infuse Mutagen - You may spend 1,000 gp in rare ingredients and 2 Int ability damage to create an infused Mutagen. These persist on their own and are not rendered inert when the alchemist creates a new one. The extra effort used to create these mutagens also allows the alchemist to prepare them with a different formula and as such they may be tailored with different Evo point expenditures.
If the devs like it (Hell, I'm just hoping we've caught more than a passing glance from them at this point) then they might just change it. If that occurs, then they will have the final say on the discoveries that coincide with it...
Of course, but I think the way I've lined up the mutagens with what you can access with Evo points keeps the abilities in line for when they are appropriately gained. The different levels of evolutions are all fairly powerful so it's a good idea to dole out the more powerful ones as you continue your research and discoveries.
Also my idea with making it so you can't just change what you can turn into between each brew is to keep the ability in line with the Eidolon which can only change it's forms when you level up. However for the hefty price that infused mutagens come with I'd expect them to offer a little more then "another use."
While I'm inclined to agree with you about the higher cost abilities (read: 3- and 4-point evos), I don't think that discoveries should be the only way to get the evo points. Now, discoveries that increase your evo point total make sense, and unlocking the 3- and 4-point evolutions through discoveries makes a lot of sense. The 2-point evolutions, which you won't be able to access until level 4 anyways (using the 1/2 lvl system), aren't overpowering at all.
Using the base mutagen, the +2 to a physical stat and +2 natural armor, makes a good starting point. Even if you have to wait until lvl 2 to gain your first evo point. See what I'm saying?
Oh no, I was meaning having the discoveries in addition to the point per 1/2 level. Sorry if that got lost. Perhaps leaving off the 2-point access from Feral Mutagen would be a good idea. If kept it would pinhole you to just mutagen discoveries. Despite that already happening...
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Also my idea with making it so you can't just change what you can turn into between each brew is to keep the ability in line with the Eidolon which can only change it's forms when you level up. However for the hefty price that infused mutagens come with I'd expect them to offer a little more then "another use."
The only argument I have here is that the Eidolon has the effects at all times while the Alchemist only has it for a much shorter period of time till way later in his career.
if several people could run this test at lvl 4 and 8 using half lvl and discoveries for evo points and compare results; i would be interested in seeing what the stats ended up being.
Maybe after my lvl 20 playtest I'll give it a shot.
all right, from all of the fights i have done sofar when i use half level and evo points from discoveries; you get to much power at level 4.
using the same stats as above as a half orc alch at level 4 i was able to beat almost every cr 4 creature in the bestairy. the only one i couldnt beat was the mimic... which has ownd every melle char i have ever played.
i used imp nat armor imp dmg for the bite attack and reach on both the bite and claw attacks.
the hydra was the toughest of the fights but still doable.
at level 8 the fights were much more even and i had to focus much more on defense to take the fights one on one. i did have limited succes with "glass cannon builds" but those were iffy and i never came out in good condition.
at leve 8 i found myself asking wether or not i knew what was coming before hand, when i did the fights leaned towards me quite a bit more, give or take 75% of the fights went my way. other wise with a general build nat armor, imp dex, reach on bite and claws and imp dmg on both, the fights were rough.
the achiles heel no matter what seems to be the will saves, if a creature has spells or spell like ablities it becomes realy hard not to get scorched... ala efreeti's. the dragons and ogre mage were even more brutal.
overall i think the evolution points should come from half level and starting at greater start adding in more evolution points with the discoveries.
this gives the mutegen a great feelling of monstrosity that was lacking before.
I'm assuming from the mention of the bite that you took Feral Mutagen at 4th level? Because from what I've seen, without any discoveries, the mutagens still lack.
From that data, I think the current mutagen-enhancing discoveries might need to be tweaked a bit (if the new system is adopted). Thank you for the information.
Also my idea with making it so you can't just change what you can turn into between each brew is to keep the ability in line with the Eidolon which can only change it's forms when you level up. However for the hefty price that infused mutagens come with I'd expect them to offer a little more then "another use."The only argument I have here is that the Eidolon has the effects at all times while the Alchemist only has it for a much shorter period of time till way later in his career.
I'm forced to agree. Being able to change it whenever you brew it helps a great deal, and makes more sense (changing the formula changes the effect).
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....also just found that if you use the reach mutation with the stand still feat you can realy realy put the hurt on anything that doesnt have a ranged attack or a realy good cdm.
The stand still feat wouldn't be affected by your reach.
When a foe provokes an attack of opportunity due to moving through your adjacent squares, you can make a combat maneuver check as your attack of opportunity. If successful, the enemy cannot move for the rest of his turn. An enemy can still take the rest of his action, but cannot move. This feat also applies to any creature that attempts to move from a square that is adjacent to you if such movement provokes an attack of opportunity.
This means that an enemy can't move away from adjacent squares, which reach has no affect on. That and you use up your whole AoO on the stopping of moving that you don't get an attack on them as well. You would be able to gain your full attacks, or allow others to do so, but the feat wouldn't really be any more powerful in the hands of an alchemist than it would be a sorcerer (besides the obvious).
Unfortunately, we did not have time to playtest tonight. And due to my wedding being 2 weeks away, my group will not be getting together to game for the next two weekends. Hopefully the next time we can get together, I can just give a long, in-depth report of all three of the higher-level playtests, including touching on some of the options suggested by other posters.
My sincerest apologies for not having anything to update tonight. :(
No worries! Life comes first. Congrats on your impending wedding!
Lol, thank you for that.
I was apologizing that I didn't have anything LAST NIGHT, not for the next two weeks...