Bombs requre 2 rounds to use and provoke 3 attacks of opportunity?

[Freesword]

Re-reading the section on bombs, it seems like the process for readying and using a bomb is:

1-Retrieve a vial of catalyst (move action - provokes AoO)
2-Infuse catalyst with magical energy (move action - provokes AoO)
3-Throw bomb (ranged attack - provokes AoO)

Worse yet:

Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are
created, they degrade and become inert—their method
of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material
from being created and stored.

Which means the stored item (catalyst) must be retrieved on the round before the bomb is readied and used (if not earlier).

This makes them a highly undesirable option for the Alchemist to use (two move actions and standard provoking 3 attacks of opportunity). I would recommend adding in something stating that retrieving the catalyst is a free or at the very least swift action and possibly have preparing the bomb not provoke AoO.

[Abraham spalding]

2. Supernatural ability... really shouldn't provoke... I know it says it does... piazo has this thing for defining something supernatural and then making spell like for all intends and purposes... really should stop.
3. Ranged attacks always provoke, even if they come from a spell so nothing new here.

that said it really makes the delay bomb discovery look like a necessity doesn't it?

I got a loop hole for you:

Keep the vials on a belt, then take quick draw, catch off guard and improvised weapon mastery... draw them as "improvised weapons" to use as bombs...

Yeah it's cheap but the problem is too.

[Freesword]

Abraham spalding wrote:

2. Supernatural ability... really shouldn't provoke... I know it says it does... piazo has this thing for defining something supernatural and then making spell like for all intends and purposes... really should stop.

3. Ranged attacks always provoke, even if they come from a spell so nothing new here.

that said it really makes the delay bomb discovery look like a necessity doesn't it?

I got a loop hole for you:

Keep the vials on a belt, then take quick draw, catch off guard and improvised weapon mastery... draw them as "improvised weapons" to use as bombs...

Yeah it's cheap but the problem is too.

I'd like to see the Bombs, Extracts, and Mutagens made Extraordinary myself and I realize that Supernatural abilities shouldn't provoke but this is about finding issues with the rules as written.

As for your loophole, thats a real stretch as:

PRD wrote:

Quick Draw

Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.

A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).

Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.

And improvised weapons are still items not technically classified as weapons, even if the penalties are removed and damage increased.

[Abraham spalding]

An improvised weapon would be a weapon... what you do after you have it doesn't matter quite so much. You could use it to hit them with in melee... if you do you'll (probably) get all of 1 point of damage, but you won't provoke...

[voska66]

1) I don't think it's spelled out clearly but it seems to me that retrieving the vial and infusing it with power is move action. Throwing it is standard action. This is how I read it the first time. Re-reading it how you interpreted it though is valid as well and probably by RAW is right. I don't think that is the intention though. I agree make vial retrieval a free action. I say this because the fluff doesn't really match the mechanic. Doing something over 2 rounds is not swift. I mean you can't even double move action this. You have to retrieve the bottle and use your standard action for something else. Then use your next move action to infuse the bomb then throw it that same turn as standard action. Hardly switft at all and subject you to AoO.

2)As for the AoO when infusing. I don't think I'd be using bomb if I was threated. That usually means they are too close to toss a bomb anyways. But still I don't much care for the AoO for infusing the bomb. I'd like to see that gone.

3) As for the AoO on ranged attacks. That's normal and makes sense.

[Freesword]

Just to clarify, I have no problem with ranged attack provoking and understand this is normal. I included it because of the number of times the steps involved in using a bomb can provoke AoO.

As for not wanting to use bombs against an opponent who is threatening, they could have reach or you could be targeting a different opponent.

As for the subject of improvised weapons counting as weapons for the purpose of Quick Draw - as a DM I wouldn't allow it, but I will admit it is up to the DM's discretion.

[Jikuu]

Abraham spalding wrote:

An improvised weapon would be a weapon... what you do after you have it doesn't matter quite so much. You could use it to hit them with in melee... if you do you'll (probably) get all of 1 point of damage, but you won't provoke...

I agree with you on the method to read and interpret the Quick Draw feat. The feat says "weapon" and disregards "alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands". Considering that the alchemist's extracts aren't potions or spell items, and they immediately get proficiency with their own bombs, I'd call them valid for the feat.

Now, does anyone know offhand the range increment on the alchemist's bombs? Should I assume 10 feet?

[tejón]

Whether or not you can Quick Draw an improvised weapon pretty much comes down to the same ruling as whether or not you can take Weapon Focus (chair).

That's neither here nor there, of course; the text repeatedly compares the alchemist's reagents to a spellcaster's material components, which are explicitly retrieved as part of the spellcasting action. It's clearly implied, and will probably be clarified due to this thread, that you don't have to do that in a previous round. I anticipate they'll take the provocation off the move action, too (assuming the do the same to the witch's hexes).

The fact that a 20th level alchemist uses one of his premier class abilities to create an effect weaker than a 10th-level wizard's fireball (not even empowered), as a full-round action, is a different issue entirely. :P

[varianor]

voska66 wrote:

1) I don't think it's spelled out clearly but it seems to me that retrieving the vial and infusing it with power is move action. Throwing it is standard action. This is how I read it the first time. Re-reading it how you interpreted it though is valid as well and probably by RAW is right. I don't think that is the intention though.

Concur. (With your other points as well.) It really should be just retrieve/infuse as move action and that's how it seemed when I read it. (Otherwise, if the OPs analysis is correct, alchemists might suck almost as much as bards.)

[Thalin]

That's how I read it as well; you're just reading too deep. Basically getting the ingrediants together and mixing them is ALL a move action that provokes, so assuming you didn't move that round you are allowed to do so.

Big problem with bombs is because the mixing is a move action you cannot mix one and take a 5-foot step back.

[Hunterofthedusk]

You don't mix the ingredients there, you make the liquid catalyst at the start of the day. You just infuse it with a little magic as a move action, then throw.

[ben grant]

retrieving a vial and catalyst works just like a caster retrieving components for spells. They're considerd stored in such a fashion that speedy retrieval is a free action with no AoO. Alchemists are spell casters too & the vials/catalyst are simply THEIR material components. The RAW are fine. This isn't scroll retrieval, it's spell component retrieval.

[King of Vrock]

I know I'll have to dig up the reference but in 3.5 Quick Draw covered weapon-like magic items as well. So Wands, Rods, and Staves fell into QD's perview. Potions got a little helping hand in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting with the introduction of the Potion Belt and Masterwork version. Both allowed a Pot to be drawn as a free action, the regular held 6, mwk held 10. There's also the Bandoleer and mwk version from the same source which allowed you to carry things several flasks, 4 or 8 I believe, though it doesn't specify the action which I believe means they're just handier than sitting in a belt pouch.

Scrolls have the infinite scroll case from the MIC which acts like a handy haversack I think...

--Jingle Bell Vrock

[hogarth]

King of Vrock wrote:

I know I'll have to dig up the reference but in 3.5 Quick Draw covered weapon-like magic items as well. So Wands, Rods, and Staves fell into QD's perview.

No such luck in Pathfinder:

"Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat."

[Epic Meepo]

Thalin wrote:

Big problem with bombs is because the mixing is a move action you cannot mix one and take a 5-foot step back.

Sure you can. Move actions in general don't prevent 5-foot steps. Only move actions that cause actual movement (across a distance) prevent 5-foot steps.

the PRD wrote:

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

[ben grant]

Pathfinder core rulebook, page 184:

To cast a spell with material(M), focus(F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these components are elaborate, preparing them is a free action.

Note : FREE ACTION

The casting of a spell in melee provokes an AoO not the retrieval of components. This is why silent, still, material free spells still provoke.

Retrieving the components of a spell, no matter what the caster class, is a free action

[Scipion del Ferro]

Right that covers extracts, but not bombs which are thrown weapons. However you can draw a bomb as a free action during a move action once you hit +1 BAB so it's no big deal anyways. You'll never need to worry about drawing more then one a turn with something like Quick Draw because it takes a standard action to throw one bomb.

[Freesword]

Ok, so based on what has been said:

Retrieving the catalyst should be a free action either treating it as a spell component (even though you aren't casting a spell) or as a thrown weapon (beginning at 2nd level with BAB +1 combined with an normal move (which may only refer to an actual move and not the move action of infusing the catalyst).

It should just clearly state that retrieving it is a free action that is part of infusing it.

You can take a 5-foot step in the round you infuse and throw the bomb.

Not as bad as I thought, but still could use some clarification on retrieving the catalyst.

[ben grant]

bomb's are essentially a full round action. a move action to create (w AoO) and a standard to detonate by throwing (no AoO) However, these don't need to be done on the same round. This is more restrictive than a wizard's school ability, but a bomb is more powerful, so it's a wash

[A Man In Black]

ben grant wrote:

bomb's are essentially a full round action. a move action to create (w AoO) and a standard to detonate by throwing (no AoO) However, these don't need to be done on the same round. This is more restrictive than a wizard's school ability, but a bomb is more powerful, so it's a wash

No, it's not a wash, because a wizard's school ability is a weak bonus ability intended to give you something to do when you run out of spells, whereas bombs are what (at least some) alchemists are supposed to be using almost all of the time.

They are fundamentally dissimilar.

[Tim4488]

A Man In Black wrote:

ben grant wrote:

bomb's are essentially a full round action. a move action to create (w AoO) and a standard to detonate by throwing (no AoO) However, these don't need to be done on the same round. This is more restrictive than a wizard's school ability, but a bomb is more powerful, so it's a wash

No, it's not a wash, because a wizard's school ability is a weak bonus ability intended to give you something to do when you run out of spells, whereas bombs are what (at least some) alchemists are supposed to be using almost all of the time.

They are fundamentally dissimilar.

This.

Quite frankly, I find it odd that bombs are as limited as they are. Clearly one of the main features of the class, considering they get them at first (Mutagens, another big feature, doesn't come into play until 2nd), many of the discoveries are bomb-related, and the damage progression is equal to sneak attack. But their range as thrown weapons is sad (not to mention the Alchemist will have to be careful not to hit allies), they take a full round action to use, and they only get a handful a day at lower levels? Now, making them a standard action AND unlimited use could be too powerful, but I'd say remove one or the other, IMHO.

Then again the best Alchemist suggestions I've seen on these boards suggest splitting the class into three or so progressions, say, Mad Bomber, Mr. Hyde, and Poison Expert (or maybe Potion/Extract Specialist). I think it would go a loooong way towards making the class more effective, more customizable, and most importantly more fun.

[Thalin]

Can you do a move-equivalent and take a 5-foot step? In 3.5 you couldn't.

Like if I was tripped, and I wanted to stand up and cast a spell, I'd have to stay in the guy's face... I believe the same rules apply here, no? You can't move-equivalenet and still take a 5-foot step in the turn; a 5-foot step can just be taken as part of a full-round action; which making and throwing a bomb is not (it's move-equivalent, then standard).

That makes it bad in my books.

[Abraham spalding]

Thalin wrote:

Can you do a move-equivalent and take a 5-foot step? In 3.5 you couldn't.

Like if I was tripped, and I wanted to stand up and cast a spell, I'd have to stay in the guy's face... I believe the same rules apply here, no? You can't move-equivalenet and still take a 5-foot step in the turn; a 5-foot step can just be taken as part of a full-round action; which making and throwing a bomb is not (it's move-equivalent, then standard).

That makes it bad in my books.

Um no, and no and no it wasn't in 3.5.

If you took a move equivalent to move in any way then you couldn't five foot step. Otherwise you could.

So if you move equivalent to pull out a potion you could still five foot step.

If you move equivalent to move then you couldn't.

This was covered earlier in the thread...

[Felinus]

Infusing the catalyst should be part of the attack action or a swift action.

I think the act of drawing the vial of catalyst should be a move action only if you have to rummage around in your backpack for it. If you have a potion belt or something could make that faster.

The issue of limited bombs is to make it not cost the alchemist anything.