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Just wanted to put this up, I'm still in the process of reviewing, but I'm interested in the discoveries, one problem, force bomb discovery can be gotten at the same time as concussive explosion discovery and yet the force one also give a reflex save and provides the benefits of force damage, why would someone take concussive, I think it should also deafen those in the area of the blast.
My very first, untempered, kneejerk reactions:
-Bombs are awesome, I'm so so glad to see this concept make it into the class
-discoveries are a cool system for customization
-EDIT: They do heal, and I look like a jerk. Good thing I disclaimered.
-Extracts are very meh. They're so similar to spells they should probably just be spells. Then they can also help the group.
EDIT: I can see how the ability to pass these around makes them different from spells. maybe they should be different-er instead of the same.
(note: very first impressions)
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from an information architecture standpoint, can you start grouping discoveries?
( each elipsis indicates at what level the discovery can be made, and the chain in general suggests prerequisite discoveries )
bombs
acid bomb
explosive bomb
frost bomb
shock bomb
...force bomb
...concussive bomb
...madness bomb
......sticky bomb
......delayed bomb
smoke bomb
...stink bomb
......smoke bomb
.........inferno bomb
<br>
mutagen
feral mutagen
infuse mutagen
......greater mutagen
.........grand mutagen
<br>
extract
infusion
enhance potion
...sticky poison
......dilution
.........elixer of life
extend potion
.........eternal potion
and can you give an alchemist a choice of damage type with his bomb at level 1? so they don't default to fire damage / can be a little different from the start?
First Impressions?
I don't really get this class. You can't aid your other party members unless you choose to take the "Infusion" discovery and you can't do that till 4th level.
You have a very limited list of options and spells, mostly limited to "Throw Bomb". That might work in a Video Game, but in a Role Playing Game I would like more options.
This class is very equipment oriented. Remember the classic Slave Lord adventures? There was a part where the PCs are caught and stripped of all their equipment. An Alchemist would be useless in that setting. Aside from "Poison Resistance", all their class abilities are dependent on having their personal equipment.
What if they do not have access to an Alchemy lab? In Legacy of Fire, the PCs go from an other dimensional Archipelago to the City of Brass to facing the big bad. Where would an Alchemist have a chance to refill his regents and extracts?
For what I see, I would only use this class as NPC and as bad guys, a Drow Alchemist would be good in Second Darkness: The Armageddon Echo.
I understand your concern about the alchemist being "equipment oriented." But so is the fighter, wizard, paladin, rogue, cleric, barbarian, bard, and well...just about every other class except the sorcerer.
Catch a PC and remove all his equipment--regardless of class--and he's completely nerfed or, at best, severely limited. A wizard may have a cache of spells in his brain, but without his spellbook, he's screwed come tomorrow.
That said, the "throw bomb" option is a very good one, but as you said, the class could use a few other options up front.
Reading the first paragraph right now, I cannot help but comment that the Alchemist screams "Gnome" to me - does anyone remember the Dwarves in Warcraft 2, who just loved to blow things up? That is the image the introduction conveys to me. In Pathfinder, I´d give this to Gnomes.
Stefan
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I understand your concern about the alchemist being "equipment oriented." But so is the fighter, wizard, paladin, rogue, cleric, barbarian, bard, and well...just about every other class except the sorcerer.
Catch a PC and remove all his equipment--regardless of class--and he's completely nerfed or, at best, severely limited. A wizard may have a cache of spells in his brain, but without his spellbook, he's screwed come tomorrow.
That said, the "throw bomb" option is a very good one, but as you said, the class could use a few other options up front.
You forgot that even if a wizard has memorized spells most spells require material components. He is only considered to have them if he has his component pouch or Eschew Materials.
My very first, untempered, kneejerk reactions:
-Bombs are awesome, I'm so so glad to see this concept make it into the class
I have a feeling that through playtesting Bombs are going to bear out to be very underpowered. 10d6+Int to a single target at 20th level is an extremely underwhelming use of a turn. (Remember, you have to burn your move action AND your standard action to use a Bomb.)
Bombs need to function more like AoE spells than splash weapons, and some of the Bomb discoveries, IMO, need to provide damage upgrades.
My very first, untempered, kneejerk reactions:
-Bombs are awesome, I'm so so glad to see this concept make it into the class
I have a feeling that through playtesting Bombs are going to bear out to be very underpowered. 10d6+Int to a single target at 20th level is an extremely underwhelming use of a turn. (Remember, you have to burn your move action AND your standard action to use a Bomb.)
Bombs need to function more like AoE spells than splash weapons, and some of the Bomb discoveries, IMO, need to provide damage upgrades.
Yes, this is probably true. There's something to be said for the fact that they're supernatural abilities and that they don't allow for a save, 45 or so damage probably won't be enough at high levels. The problem with making them AoE is that they'll become too easy to avoid damage.
Speaking of Bombs, what's their range increment?
I detest the "mutagen" term, at least for anything with a medieval fantasy feel. It's far too modern and laden with scifi and comic book baggage.
I also dislike that a cross between Dr. Jekyll and the Mad Bomber What Bombs At Midnight is what gets the "Alchemist" name.
Though admittedly it's in an old 3.0 sourcebook that is not open, the Master Alchemist from the Magic of Faerun had a lot more alchemical flavor, especially if run in combo with Alchemist Savant from Magic of Eberron. Stacked atop a Wizard, Archivist or even the new Pathfinder Witch, that gives you loads of potions, though if you want all the potions, you do it with an Eberron Artificer.
Were I going to stat up an alchemist for my world, either PC or NPC, that's the sort of character I'd put together. This? Perfectly fine for an addled junkie with a flair for pyrotechnics, and maybe even a fine character, but not what most people think of when they think of an alchemist. Their spells cap out at 6th level and aren't very impressive to begin with, so you can't get a truly powerful alchemical item from any of them, at least not compared to a Master Alchemist or just a witch with Craft Wondrous Item.
In fact, their ability to get more bang for their buck out of potions means that these guys are going to be a potion-seller's best customers. Witch selling potions? They're there. Temple doing the same? Sure! Do they come in six-packs? Master Alchemist having a store clearance sale? They'll be lining up for days before and fighting each other for who gets first dibs.
Now admittedly "Alchemist" is a sexier class name than "Exploding Guinea Pig," but the latter is more what this class is, apart from the capstone abilities, which are indeed nice and flavorful, but read as too little too late. An Alchemist who gets Eternal Youth but can't brew very impressive potions compared to, say, a druid with Timeless Body, spells up to 9th level, and Craft Wondrous Item?
I have a feeling that through playtesting Bombs are going to bear out to be very underpowered. 10d6+Int to a single target at 20th level is an extremely underwhelming use of a turn. (Remember, you have to burn your move action AND your standard action to use a Bomb.)
Frankly, it would only be so-so at 20d6. Really cool baseline, but I think it needs some work...
I understand your concern about the alchemist being "equipment oriented." But so is the fighter, wizard, paladin, rogue, cleric, barbarian, bard, and well...just about every other class except the sorcerer.
Catch a PC and remove all his equipment--regardless of class--and he's completely nerfed or, at best, severely limited. A wizard may have a cache of spells in his brain, but without his spellbook, he's screwed come tomorrow.
That said, the "throw bomb" option is a very good one, but as you said, the class could use a few other options up front.
Yes, but swords are rather common to find and even a stick can be an effective club.
With alchemical regents, you either have to go out of your way to include them (You killed a rat! You find a Philosopher's Stone!) or you have to hand-wave it and let him just always have what he needs (like material components)
I understand your concern about the alchemist being "equipment oriented." But so is the fighter, wizard, paladin, rogue, cleric, barbarian, bard, and well...just about every other class except the sorcerer.
Catch a PC and remove all his equipment--regardless of class--and he's completely nerfed or, at best, severely limited. A wizard may have a cache of spells in his brain, but without his spellbook, he's screwed come tomorrow.
That said, the "throw bomb" option is a very good one, but as you said, the class could use a few other options up front.
Yes, but swords are rather common to find and even a stick can be an effective club.
With alchemical regents, you either have to go out of your way to include them (You killed a rat! You find a Philosopher's Stone!) or you have to hand-wave it and let him just always have what he needs (like material components)
This really isn't any different from wizards. You buy your components in town. Am I missing something?
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Just wanted to put this up, I'm still in the process of reviewing, but I'm interested in the discoveries, one problem, force bomb discovery can be gotten at the same time as concussive explosion discovery and yet the force one also give a reflex save and provides the benefits of force damage, why would someone take concussive, I think it should also deafen those in the area of the blast.
I agree, it feels like concussive is missing something...
I agree, it feels like concussive is missing something...
The good Mr Buhlman already said that Concussive Explosion will be having Deafened for 1d4 rounds added into the final version of the discovery in a different thread.
My very first impression of this class was meh. The extracts borrow to much from the spell systems we already have, the mutagen effect is just a barbarian rage that won't stack with gear, and the bombs while new seem kinda weak.
My second impression, getting to play Mr. Hyde might be fun, especially if he's dual-wielding poisoned weapons and under the permanent effects of an enlarge or haste potion.
My third impression... one discovery every four levels?!? WTF?!? So much for Mr. Hyde. Blah.
Throw bombs...meh. Not a class for me.
I'm pleased others have taken to it, but to me it's just not D&D.
"mutagen" - all wrong.
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Okay so my full first impression of the class, I want to start by saying that I love the idea of an alchemist class and built my own in 3.5 which was a blast to play, I think I'll rename it the Mastercraft Alchemist, or maybe just Chemist, and submit it to the pathfinder database. Having said that you'll understand that I was very excited to see them make an alchemist for the game and love the ideas presented by this class.
having said that, I will admit that effusions feel like "spells by any other name" which saddens me a bit, but I'm glad they weren't outright given spellcasting.
What really bothers me is a lack of any way to improve the standard alchemical gear you can buy. So the level 10 alchemist makes alchemist fire the same as a schlub who rolled a nat 20 on his check at level one? I also expected this class to be a lot more skill based so 4+ int per level was dissapointing to me, and the only thing they get toward creating alchemical items with skills is that it takes them half the time, I was expecting a lot more. I figured they'd at least be 6+ int per level.
I love a lot of the concepts in this class, the discoveries, bombs, and mutagens are all great and I've even warmed up to the effusions. But the execution is somewhat lacking. Especially in the mutagen department, Mutagens need some major boosting, I think if mutagens get better then bombs are right where they need to be, but the class needs more discoveries.
I share your sentiment, LastKnight. I feel the concept--a non-magical wielder of smelly concoctions--is a much-needed one in the game. But the Alpha version of the alchemist just isn't that.
I actually prefer they remain magical in nature, but yes, they need to be using improved tanglefoot bags and thunderstones.
On the plus side, they do improve alchemist's fire quite a bit by adding their int mod to its damage (unfortunately, this means they'll end up doing more damage at some points in the game with alchemist's fire than bombs.
I actually prefer they remain magical in nature, but yes, they need to be using improved tanglefoot bags and thunderstones.
On the plus side, they do improve alchemist's fire quite a bit by adding their int mod to its damage (unfortunately, this means they'll end up doing more damage at some points in the game with alchemist's fire than bombs.
Considering the bombs get the same bonus, and do minimum bomb damage to all targets it splashes (and it splashes to the same range) I really don't see how unless you are talking in an anti-magic field.
10d6+13 at minimum is 23 which is greater than 14 damage on a splash from alchemist fire.
I actually prefer they remain magical in nature, but yes, they need to be using improved tanglefoot bags and thunderstones.
On the plus side, they do improve alchemist's fire quite a bit by adding their int mod to its damage (unfortunately, this means they'll end up doing more damage at some points in the game with alchemist's fire than bombs.
Considering the bombs get the same bonus, and do minimum bomb damage to all targets it splashes (and it splashes to the same range) I really don't see how unless you are talking in an anti-magic field.
10d6+13 at minimum is 23 which is greater than 14 damage on a splash from alchemist fire.
Because you can use a full round to chuck multiple vials of alchemist's fire (unless I'm mistaken, that's just an attack, and not a standard action).
And that's assuming deadly aim doesn't work with both (which it should).
Deadly aim doesn't work because it specifically states it doesn't work on touch attacks...
Besides 4 ranged touch attacks doing 1d6+13 = 4d6+52 means 66 damage (4x 16.5) splash for 14
OR 1 ranged touch attack that does 10d6+13 = 35+13 means 48 damage splash for 23.
It's a matter of how much damage you want to do in one hit resistances and such could mean you don't want to throw that many (unlikely admittedly) and with each attack you chance of hitting goes down beyond the need for quick draw.
Also with Delay bomb you could conceivably throw multiple bombs in one round. Finally the bomb can do other energy types of damage.
In an anti magic field, yes alchemy items are possible.
Deadly aim doesn't work because it specifically states it doesn't work on touch attacks...
Besides 4 ranged touch attacks doing 1d6+13 = 4d6+52 means 66 damage (4x 16.5) splash for 14
OR 1 ranged touch attack that does 10d6+13 = 35+13 means 48 damage splash for 23.
It's a matter of how much damage you want to do in one hit resistances and such could mean you don't want to throw that many (unlikely admittedly) and with each attack you chance of hitting goes down beyond the need for quick draw.
Also with Delay bomb you could conceivably throw multiple bombs in one round. Finally the bomb can do other energy types of damage.
In an anti magic field, yes alchemy items are possible.
Eeek, you're right about deadly aim. My bad.
Do remember though that that splash damage is 14 per hit. If you're able to hit multiple foes with the attack, the alchemist's fire becomes by far the better choice (ending up at 56 splash damage total).
Also, with a mere rapid shot (I'm assume they're basically consantly hasted. My groups tend to always have somebody hasting. Maybe that's just my experience), that goes up to 5 attacks, which would turn it into 82.5 damage and 70 splash). I really wouldn't take iterative attacks into consideration in the calculation. Touch attacks are quite easy to make, esp for a self-buffer with 3/4 bab.
Also, remember the alchemist is capable of throwing acid, so, already 2 of the damage types the bomb can do are covered (and without wasting a precious discovery).
Don't undercut the bomb's damage, though. Remember that, with a sticky bomb, that damage will double after the first round, effectively doing 98 damage/turn. Effectively, the bomb becomes the single target weapon, while the fire/acid is the multi target weapon. Something seems wrong about that.
Anyway, my overall point was that It's a real shame the bomb isn't better by a wide margin than alchemist's fire.
The bomb gets splash too... if you look at my post you'll see that I put the bombs splash damage as what it is minimum damage for the bomb + Int Mod... which is 23, which is of course 9 better than the alchemist fire. Now the alchemist fire can splash the same targets 4 times if you hit four times for a total of 76 damage... but you have to hit the primary target.
IF vital strike does work with the bomb then the bomb becomes much nicer on both splash and regular damage with 30d6, and 43 damage on a splash.
Now I'm not fully saying the bomb can't use something, but I'm not sure how much of something. perhaps just a wider splash and a few more (and earlier) choices.
The bomb gets splash too... if you look at my post you'll see that I put the bombs splash damage as what it is minimum damage for the bomb + Int Mod... which is 23, which is of course 9 better than the alchemist fire. Now the alchemist fire can splash the same targets 4 times if you hit four times for a total of 76 damage... but you have to hit the primary target.
IF vital strike does work with the bomb then the bomb becomes much nicer on both splash and regular damage with 30d6, and 43 damage on a splash.
Now I'm not fully saying the bomb can't use something, but I'm not sure how much of something. perhaps just a wider splash and a few more (and earlier) choices.
Does vital strike work? I was under the impression that it didn't, since it's a standard action in its own right. If it doesn't, the bomb may need quite a bit.
EDIT: Where'd you get 76 from on the splash? I think I'm missing something. If you have 13 int and hit for one on the splash, you're doing 56 (14 X4) or 70 (14X5)
Does vital strike work? I was under the impression that it didn't, since it's a standard action in its own right. If it doesn't, the bomb may need quite a bit.
EDIT: Where'd you get 76 from on the splash? I think I'm missing something. If you have 13 int and hit for one on the splash, you're doing 56 (14 X4) or 70 (14X5)
On the vital strike I don't really have an answer. IF it works for other splash weapons I would say yes. Personally I think the bomb entry should have "move action to activate, then functions like a splash weapon" (or something similiar) so as to cut down on the grief it can cause. IF it takes a standard action to throw and alchemist's fire then it shouldn't... IF it's just a normal attack then it should be useful. That's my thoughts on that.
On Bombs themselves I'm of two minds:
Mind 1 -- They are fine as is, but the discoveries need to be bumped up some so you aren't waiting until level 12 to even begin to actually have choices. As it stands now you could either throw a stinking bomb at level 12, or have sticky bomb, or delay bomb, but not really all three... it's just too little room too late in the game.
Mind 2 -- Turning the bombs into extracts and allowing the Alchemist to make them using normal extract rules would work fine too. You could even at "Lesser Combination Bomb" "Combination Bomb" and "Greater Combination Bomb" at levels 2,4,6. These would allow you to take any two bombs of the lower level and combined them into one bomb, however your "caster level" would be halved for each bomb. This would allow damage increases in the bombs earlier to keep them more in pace with spell options, allow more options to be put in from the get go, and free up "class abilities" for more interesting things, without increasing the Alchemist's overall power that much.
On the math: Yeah I double carried the one somehow.