Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I wanted to say thanks and give you guys a round of virtual applause for the sidebar in Carrion Hill recommending Call of Cthulu and Chaosium. I'd been meaning to say something and one of the comments by James Jacobs (to the effect that certain pantheons were removed from the 1e Dieties & Demigods due to TSR not wanting to promote other parties' products) reminded me of it. Very classy (and I mean that without any irony whatsoever). The sidebar underlines one of the fundamental truths that makes Paizo so great: it's by gamers, for gamers.
I'll join in--belated though it may be, applause is always apropos.
...one of the comments by James Jacobs (to the effect that certain pantheons were removed from the 1e Dieties & Demigods due to TSR not wanting to promote other parties' products) reminded me of it.
Is that true? I'd heard it was "the other way around" namely Chaosium having the rights and insisting the Cthulhu stuff was withdrawn from later printings of Deities and Demigods.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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...one of the comments by James Jacobs (to the effect that certain pantheons were removed from the 1e Dieties & Demigods due to TSR not wanting to promote other parties' products) reminded me of it.Is that true? I'd heard it was "the other way around" namely Chaosium having the rights and insisting the Cthulhu stuff was withdrawn from later printings of Deities and Demigods.
So had I, but James said that was an urban legend - TSR had permission from Chaosium but the powers that be thought advertising for other game companies was a bad idea.
So had I, but James said that was an urban legend - TSR had permission from Chaosium but the powers that be thought advertising for other game companies was a bad idea.
Interesting.
And when that urban myth became very widespread, TSR never clarified the issue. They just allowed Chaosium be looked down upon for their own internal decision.
Well, rather than focus on the negative, that is just another good reason to applaud Paizo.
A strong and healthy product doesn't have to worry about competition, only the integrity of it's own work.
So had I, but James said that was an urban legend - TSR had permission from Chaosium but the powers that be thought advertising for other game companies was a bad idea.Interesting.
And when that urban myth became very widespread, TSR never clarified the issue. They just allowed Chaosium be looked down upon for their own internal decision.
Well, rather than focus on the negative, that is just another good reason to applaud Paizo.
A strong and healthy product doesn't have to worry about competition, only the integrity of it's own work.
Not sure how exactly TSR could have stopped this myth back then. Internet was just barely in its infancy, and if they'd mentioned it in Dragon Magazine of the day, it probably would have just reinforced the myth rather than retract it, the way folks reacted to "official" statements :)
This myth traveled word of mouth for years, I must have heard it at every Con I was at whenever anyone saw the book in my hand and found out I had an original print :)
Not sure how exactly TSR could have stopped this myth back then. Internet was just barely in its infancy, and if they'd mentioned it in Dragon Magazine of the day, it probably would have just reinforced the myth rather than retract it, the way folks reacted to "official" statements :)
This myth traveled word of mouth for years, I must have heard it at every Con I was at whenever anyone saw the book in my hand and found out I had an original print :)
I suppose that's true. Sometimes people believe what they want to believe :)
So had I, but James said that was an urban legend - TSR had permission from Chaosium but the powers that be thought advertising for other game companies was a bad idea.
As a former TSR employee who got this info first-hand from people who were there at the time, this (James' account of it) is correct. It's also addressed in the rec.games.frp.dnd FAQ, based on a Q&A with me about it.
As a former TSR employee who got this info first-hand from people who were there at the time, this (James' account of it) is correct. It's also addressed in the rec.games.frp.dnd FAQ, based on a Q&A with me about it.
I did some googling..
Came up this this link which seems to be from the FAQ that Sean is referencing.
Creative Director
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Actually, CoC and Chaosium were recommended as far as PF6. So it's a nice, old tradition :)
Actually, as far back as PF4. When we did the Hounds of Tindalos as a new monster.
Chaosium is a GREAT company, and they might just be the oldest continually-in-business RPG publisher out there now. Whenever we do anything with public domain stuff from the mythos, we make sure to acknowledge the fact that Chaosium's game was there first. (We also chatted a bit with Chaosium back in the day, as far back as Dungeon #134's adventure about the King in Yellow, to make sure they were cool with us playing in the pool.)
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Creative Director
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As a former TSR employee who got this info first-hand from people who were there at the time, this (James' account of it) is correct. It's also addressed in the rec.games.frp.dnd FAQ, based on a Q&A with me about it.I did some googling..
Came up this this link which seems to be from the FAQ that Sean is referencing.
Thanks for finding that link! BOOKMARKED!!
But yeah... it's a lot more complicated an issue than "Chaosium sued TSR."
Came up this this link which seems to be from the FAQ that Sean is referencing.
Yep, that's the one.
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Dungeon 134's adventure about the King in Yellow
Speaking of which,
"And Madness Follows" is the one adventure from the Mona days that I felt I wanted to run exacltly as is from the text. One of my most successful homegame adventures.
It is one of the best stand alone adventures of the 3E years and gets so little praise compared with "The Styes", "The Harrowing", Tammeraut's Fate", "Root of Evil" and that Greer adventure (doh!) where the PCs look for the Pit Fiend skin that was a gift from Grazz't to Iggwilv (best cover from the Mona days).
Whatever happened to Matthew Hope?
Yes, they do rock. What´s more, CoC is of course really a great game itself, and CoC and Pathfinder/D&D are on wholly different turfs, so they are competitors in the broadest of terms only - both are in the RPG market, but that´s about it. Thus I guess it is not much trouble for either of them to let a "competitor" play in their own field.
Stefan
Yes, they do rock. What´s more, CoC is of course really a great game itself, and CoC and Pathfinder/D&D are on wholly different turfs, so they are competitors in the broadest of terms only - both are in the RPG market, but that´s about it. Thus I guess it is not much trouble for either of them to let a "competitor" play in their own field.
Stefan
O.o That would so rock - Chaosium has significant 'chops' in their own right. Getting them to do some PRPG material ... *gamergasm*
... and that Greer adventure (doh!) where the PCs look for the Pit Fiend skin that was a gift from Grazz't to Iggwilv (best cover from the Mona days).The excellent, excellent Fiend's Embrace!
Damn that Greer and his sick and twisted imagination. The man is simply demented.
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Damn that Greer and his sick and twisted imagination. The man is simply demented.... and that Greer adventure (doh!) where the PCs look for the Pit Fiend skin that was a gift from Grazz't to Iggwilv (best cover from the Mona days).The excellent, excellent Fiend's Embrace!
More than fair praise coming from a demented little monkey like you, ya creepy bastich ;)
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Creative Director
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Wow, I never knew that about TSR having the rights to use the Chaosium monsters. Did they also have rights to the Newhon stuff?
Wouldn't it be cool if Paizo could secure similar rights from Chaosium for Pathfinder? Greg Stafford is a cool enough guy...I think you should try!
Ken
TSR had the rights to the Newhon stuff for a long time. Fritz Leiber even wrote an article for the first issue of Dragon, I believe. But yeah, TSR actually published a Lankhmar setting for quite a while for 1st and 2nd edition.
Wow, I never knew that about TSR having the rights to use the Chaosium monsters. Did they also have rights to the Newhon stuff?
Yes, they had a license with Fritz Leiber's estate to produce Lankhmar RPG products.
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Damn that Greer and his sick and twisted imagination. The man is simply demented.... and that Greer adventure (doh!) where the PCs look for the Pit Fiend skin that was a gift from Grazz't to Iggwilv (best cover from the Mona days).The excellent, excellent Fiend's Embrace!
Er... *you* -- The Pett -- are calling someone else's imagination "sick and twisted"? :O