Okay, I'm a bit confused on the Challenge rating rules. Everything made sense until they show an example:
For example, let’s say you want your group of six 8th-level PCs to face a challenging encounter against a group of gargoyles (each CR 4) and their stone giant boss (CR 8). The PCs have an APL of 9, and table 12–1 tells you that a challenging encounter for your APL 9 group is a CR 10 encounter—worth 9,600 XP according to Table 12–2. At CR 8, the stone giant is worth 4,800 XP, leaving you with another 4,800 points in your XP budget for the gargoyles. Gargoyles are CR 4 each, and thus worth 1,200 XP apiece, meaning that the encounter can support four gargoyles in its XP budget. You could further refine the encounter by including only three gargoyles, leaving you with 1,200 XP to spend on a trio of Small earth elemental servants (at CR 1, each is worth 400 XP) to further aid the stone giant.
Okay, shouldn't that many monsters massively increase the CR of the encounter? Or do you average the CR of the monsters so that the CR in this example would be 9, but match the xp budget for a CR 10. The elementals averaged with three gargoyles and the giant seems to support this also. Isn't it a CR9 encounter then with too much xp?
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One CR8 stone giant, three CR4 gargoyles, and three CR1 small earth elementals.
The rule of thumb to remember is that two CR X creatures make a CR X+2 encounter, and three CR X creatures make a CR X+3 encounter. Encounters can be combined like creatures.
So, you have three CR1 elementals. That makes for a CR1+3=4 mob.
Now, take that elemental mob and pair it with one of the gargoyles. You have two CR4 encounters there, which makes a CR6, comprised of one gargoyle and three elementals. Likewise, you can pair up the other two gargoyles, both CR4, to get a CR6 encounter.
Now, take the CR6 gargoyle-elementals mob with the CR6 gargoyle pair and put them together. That's a CR8 encounter.
Pair that CR8 encounter with the CR8 stone giant, and you have a CR10 encounter.
The XP budget system just circumvents that mess, but that's basically what's going on. If you then double the encounter to two giants, six gargoyles, and six elementals, it's CR12. At four giants, twelve gargoyles, and twelve elementals, it's CR14, and so on.
Okay, I had a friend explain this because I didn't understand your reply, (I swear I'm not intentionally being dense.)
My question is: what if you have a CR6 and a CR8? Do you average the CR then and add CR2 for multiple monsters?
Well. In this case, you can break the encounter into its component parts. You have a CR6 and a CR8. The CR8 is the same as two CR 6 encounters, meaning the original set is the same as three CR6 encounters. Three encounters of CR X make an encounter of CR X+3, so in this case, CR 9.
Or, you can just rev up the encounter calculator and be done with it. Though I don't know if the fine details there have changed or not. I believe XP/gold distribution's changed, but not the CR calculations themselves.
isn't there occasionally going to be a CR group that doesn't fit that?
Like a CR5 and a CR8, there's no way to use that formula here. Also, why doesn't the book say any of this? It just sort of leaves you hanging. :(
Oh! Thanks for your help and the awesome link, by the way.
Actually, one CR8 is the same as 3 CR5's. So, one CR 8 and a CR 5 is the same as 4 CR5's, which is the same as 2 CR7's, which comes out to CR9.
yea, but will there always be a way you can calculate that, or are there some odd men out?
It should work most of the time. Lessee... CR9 and CR2.
CR9 is the same as 3xCR6, which is the same as 6xCR4, which is the same as 12xCR2, making 13xCR2. That's the same as... 3xCR5 and 2xCR4. Which is a CR8 and a CR6. That CR8 is like 2xCR6, making 3xCR6, for a CR9 encounter. That CR2 creature tossed in wasn't enough to raise encounter level.
You can move up and down in increments of two and three, which should provide enough resolution to cover all your bases.
However, mind that the 2xCR X=CR X+2 and 3xCR X=CR X+3 rules don't kick in until you get to CR 2 monsters. For creatures weaker than that (CR 1/10 through 1), you just add up their CR's until they're 2, then apply the rules of thumb. So, three CR 1/3 goblins would just be added together, for a CR1 encounter. If you have six of them, you add 'em all together for a CR2 encounter. If you have twelve of them, though, they become subject to the rule of thumb. You have six goblins on one hand making a CR2 encounter, and six goblins on the other making a CR2 encounter, which come together to make a CR4 encounter.
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It should work most of the time. Lessee... CR9 and CR2.
CR9 is the same as 3xCR6, which is the same as 6xCR4, which is the same as 12xCR2, making 13xCR2. That's the same as... 3xCR5 and 2xCR4. Which is a CR8 and a CR6. That CR8 is like 2xCR6, making 3xCR6, for a CR9 encounter. That CR2 creature tossed in wasn't enough to raise encounter level.
You can move up and down in increments of two and three, which should provide enough resolution to cover all your bases.
However, mind that the 2xCR X=CR X+2 and 3xCR X=CR X+3 rules don't kick in until you get to CR 2 monsters. For creatures weaker than that (CR 1/10 through 1), you just add up their CR's until they're 2, then apply the rules of thumb. So, three CR 1/3 goblins would just be added together, for a CR1 encounter. If you have six of them, you add 'em all together for a CR2 encounter. If you have twelve of them, though, they become subject to the rule of thumb. You have six goblins on one hand making a CR2 encounter, and six goblins on the other making a CR2 encounter, which come together to make a CR4 encounter.
Also, without looking at my book to see the chart, if you add the total XP for each monster, without combining CRs, you'll get the same number as you do by combining. The whole combined CR thing was just so you could do long equations without grabbing the calculator. But, honestly, who doesn't have a calculator sitting with them at the table...or when they're writing an adventure?
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That's the most impressive necro I've ever seen.
> if you add the total XP for each monster, without combining CRs, you'll get the same number as you do by combining.
CR and XP are not the same: you're talking about XP, but the OP was talking about CR. If you have two CR 1 (ie. 400 XP monsters) you get 400 + 400 = 800 xp (ie. 2x). If you have two CR 1 monsters in an encounter that encounter has a CR of 1 + 1 + 2 = CR 4 (ie 4x).
But, then, okay, wait.
I have my party fight two CR1 creatures. Each creature is worth 400XP.
Do I award them 800xp (400xp per creature), or do I award them 1,200xp (the reward for a C4 encounter)? I was assuming the former, but it sounds like that'd be wrong and cheating my players a bit, yeah?
Because in terms of game balance, the game design considers two CR1 creatures to be a CR4 challenge? Or, in other words, a party with an APL of 2 facing two CR1 monsters would not be considered a "normal" encounter (APL) but a "hard" encounter (APL + 2)? Is that right?
Seems like this is critical for me to understand, so please someone clarify!
Two CR 1 creatures would be a CR 3 encounter. So it would be a "Challenging" encounter for an APL 2 party.
Experience is awarded per creature, at least that's the official way:
Keep a list of the CRs of all the monsters, traps, obstacles, and roleplaying encounters the PCs overcome. At the end of each session, award XP to each PC that participated. Each monster, trap, and obstacle awards a set amount of XP, as determined by its CR
So for the example of two CR 1 creatures you award 2 * 400 XP = 800 XP.
Now you could instead use the encounter XP: It's a CR 3 encounter, hence 800 XP, same result as per creature. But this approach becomes inaccurate once you don't hit any CR XP value exactly. For example once you add a mite (CR 1/4, so 100 XP) - the encounter becomes "CR 3 plus a bit", with no defined XP value. While it's possible to figure out that the players should get 900 XP, it's easier to calculate the official way.
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So if you have a CR5 necromancer who raises a pair of CR4 necromancers who together raise three CR1/2 zombies, you end up with 1600+1200x2+200x3= 4,600xp. CR8 is 4800, so you should tell them to raise one more zombie and you've got a CR8 encounter.
Another way to look at it is that CR is a budget. You want a CR8 encounter. CR8 is worth 4,800xp. So that's how much xp you have to purchase monsters with.
Also (This part is nothing official, just advice based on my many years of experience) worth noting that CR is based upon a party of 4. So if you have a party of 6, then you need to increase your budget by 50%. This doesn't mean increase the level of your boss monster by 1, but rather to throw in more henchmen.
A good way to remember it is that every +2 CR is double the xp as the initial CR. So while 4,800xp is a CR8 encounter, a CR 6 encounter is 2,400xp, a CR 10 is 9,600xp, 12 is 19,200xp, etc. But you also have to consider this is normally meant for a party of 4. So if you have a party of 6, you can either look up the value for a CR higher or divide the xp by 4 then multiply by 6 for your budget.
If you don't want to calculate by a budget, you can use the additive "every 2 of a CR=1 of their CR +2" method. The easiest way to calculate CR by hand is to add the smallest enemies up first. In your example of shooting for a CR 10, and knowing that you want to use a CR 8 creature paired with X CR 4 creatures, we can start with 2 of the CR 4 creatures to get a CR 6 encounter. Then we're still below budget so we can add two more CR 4 creatures for a combined two CR 6 "creatures" or one CR 8 creature. And now that we have two CR 8 creatures, we have a CR 10 encounter with just 4 CR 4 creatures and a CR 8.