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I noticed that the Disguise skill does not cover mimicry and / or impersonating a voice of a specific person. It only says "You are skilled at changing your appearance." What happens when you are dressed as a specific individual and you begin to talk to someone who is intimately close to that person ?
Anyone have any ruling on this ? Is is a part of the disguise skill, bluff, or something else entirely ? Assuming this question could also translate to disguise self for the purposes of any further discussion.
Intelligent, researched answers please.
The Disguise Self spell specifically does not do sound, so it would not aid in impersonation. The Alter Self spell, however, does, so it would, and it would not be unreasonable to give it the same bonus as it does to Disguise.
However, it appears that mimicry falls under Bluff, at least following the text from the leucrotta from Pathfinder 17:
Voice Mimicry (Ex) A leucrotta can perfectly imitate the voice
of any creature it has heard talking. It makes a Bluff check
when using voice mimicry—listeners may oppose this Bluff
with Listen checks to see through the mimicry, although if
the listener isn’t familiar with the voice of the person being
mimicked, he suffers a –8 penalty on his Listen check to
oppose the leucrotta’s Bluff. Leucrotta find it difficult to
mimic the voices of creatures more than one size category
smaller or larger than themselves, and take a –8 penalty on
their Bluff checks to mimic the voices of such smaller or
larger creatures.
Of course, this is an extraordinary ability, and as such much better than what ordinary mortals can do. It's also pre-Pathfinder RPG, so the Listen check should be converted to Perception.
Following this, it would be easiest to use it as a subset of the Bluff skill, but use the various difficulty modifiers from the Disguise skill with some modification. Convincingly mimicking another gender's voice is more than just a -2. I'd put it at a -10 personally. But you should also remember that the leucrotta's Voice Mimicry allows it to imitate even people who you are intimately familiar with, which for Disguise is a +10 bonus for people's Perception checks to see through it.
Alternately, just roll it into the Disguise skill, come up with some clear rules on that, and give the Leucrotta a special bonus to use with Voice Mimicry.
There should also reasonably be some illusions, specifically glamers, which let you disguise your voice. I'd look at "Disguise Self" and switch it to "Mimic Voice" and let it give the same bonus to vocal impersonation. There should also be some feats that make you better at it.
I think it could also fall under Disguise (as in disguising your own voice) or Perform (since you're doing a vocal impression - Dana Carvey doing George Bush Sr. for example).
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I think it could also fall under Disguise (as in disguising your own voice) or Perform (since you're doing a vocal impression - Dana Carvey doing George Bush Sr. for example).
We considered perform as well, but then what would be the opposed skill roll ?
Perform to Perception ?
Perform to Sense Motive ?
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However, it appears that mimicry falls under Bluff, at least following the text from the leucrotta from Pathfinder 17:
I like where your research took you. Citing a similar ability is a great step in finding a viable answer. I also like your alternative ruling for illusion spells and mimicry.
Regarding the bluff skill, we had the same line of thinking because 3.5 listed it as benefiting from synergy bonus from the bluff skill, which would indicate that disguise contains a certain degree of oratory as well.
To quote
"If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Disguise checks when you know that you’re being observed and you try to act in character."
However, we may have concluded that one who is naturally a talented liar (or bluff'er), would not naturally be a talented voice impersonator ... but the synergy basically defines bluffing as "acting in character." Strange that "acting" is not perform. Unless they had no way of doing an opposed check to detect falsehood of the impersonation with perform. (as stated above response)
Thanks for the responses thus far.
You're welcome.
Actually, thinking on it a bit more, while it's of course not the same as the Leucrotta's use of Bluff, that monster was written up before the Core Rulebook. And the same way that Listen has been rolled into Perception, I'd roll Mimic into Linguistics.
It makes sense if you think about it. One of the most common tasks in mimicry is getting an accent right, and that's the job for Linguistics. Just ask Professor Higgins.
It also works as the skill to spot another mimic, so long as the special exemption at the end of Linguistics is expanded so that in addition to anyone being able to detect a forgery for free, not just those with ranks in Linguistics (though they're of course better at it), those without ranks in Linguistics can still use it to spot mimicry.
Professor Higgins: "That's not the accent of a goblin arsonist. That sounds like a half-orc society matron from Cheliax, and Upper Cheliax unless I miss my guess. I disbelieve the illusion!"
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I know posting on this thread is heavy necromancing, but i had the same doubt and found the following item on Ultimate Equipment:
Ruff, Mummer’s
Usually fashioned from brightly colored silk, a mummer’s ruff is a favored accoutrement of performers and con artists alike. The wearer of a mummer’s ruff gains a +10 bonus on Bluff skill checks when attempting to imitate another’s voice. In addition, once per day, the wearer of the mummer’s ruff can throw his voice as if using ventriloquism for up to 5 minutes.
So there seems to be a precedent for using Bluff on imitating voices.
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the vocal alteration spell. It seems to strongly imply that fooling a listener is very much under the purview of Disguise.
Usually fashioned from brightly colored silk, a mummer’s ruff is a favored accoutrement of performers and con artists alike. The wearer of a mummer’s ruff gains a +10 bonus on Bluff skill checks when attempting to imitate another’s voice. In addition, once per day, the wearer of the mummer’s ruff can throw his voice as if using ventriloquism for up to 5 minutes
Now this makes it weird. Basically, Ultimate Equipment is claiming is saying this falls under Bluff, while Ultimate Magic is claiming it's under disguise. Most likely this is just a case of different writers believing it differently.
My personal take is that faking a voice falls under the "acting in character" part of Disguise. But there's certainly enough argument for bluff that I allow my players to use either. Hadn't thought of linguistics before, but there's certainly a good argument for it--I'd probably allow it to be used with a small penalty.
I would say Bluff of Disguise.
Probably would leave Perform to Versatile Performance tho.
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presented in the Core Rulebook focuses on the visual
aspects of disguise that a character prepares, later rules
(such as the vocal alteration spell; see page 248 of Pathfinder
RPG Ultimate Magic) have made it clear that there are other
aspects, including voice, mannerisms, and phrasing. The
trick is to distinguish between the use of the Bluff and
the Disguise skills. Generally, Bluff checks cover telling
actual lies to support a disguise, whereas Disguise checks
cover the other aspects, such as imitating mannerisms
and speech.
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BigNorseWolf,
Thanks for that.
When you are running your game, do you allow your characters a flat roll with these skills, or do you penalize them for various circumstances?
Ex. If a female human character is impersonating a male dwarf, and rolling Disguise, do you simply stack the -2 for different race and gender?
What if she was using Illusionary magic and impersonating the voice of a "summoned" outsider? Still -4?
BigNorseWolf,
Ex. If a female human character is impersonating a male dwarf, and rolling Disguise, do you simply stack the -2 for different race and gender?
Eyup. So -4.
Might bump a male character with a thick beard playing a female dwarf down to -3, because dwarven women have beards dammit! :)
What if she was using Illusionary magic and impersonating the voice of a "summoned" outsider? Still -4?
as long as they can see you i'd let the bonus from the magic apply. i might drop it to a +5 instead of +10 if it's something REALLY off.
"I never knew pit lords had such squeeky high pitched voices..."
This is one of those cases where it might make sense to let certain skills stand in for others, perhaps with a penalty in some cases. I mean, even if you decide that Disguise is the "right" skill for this maybe you should allow a Bluff or Perform (Act) check with a -2 penalty instead.
I've got a character big on impersonation. How I view it is that it's mostly Disguise, unless you're doing it in front of someone who should be inclined to distrust you.
You Disguise to fool your (imitated target's) mother. You Bluff if she thinks you're dead.
To me, Bluff is about presenting fact that contradict reason or expectation. Disguise is adopting a persona or identity. They work together sometimes. But if I just pick up the phone and try to sound likr someone, I'm Disguising my vpice. If I try to give commands to launch nukes, that's Bluff.