If you're expecting to get into a melee fight without an ally around to flank with, a reccomend taking Improved Feint. Otherwise the fight's going to just drag on, and rogues aren't known for their staying power.
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I use Rogue for a swashbuckler and get a lot of mileage out of Improved Feint. It allows me to use Sneak Attack in all kind of non-sneaky situations. I also invested in Skill Focus (Bluff). At 5th level, I can add 3d6 damage to many of my attacks. Pretty sweet. I've never done the math but I feel I get more damage output from that than from TWF.
Change the familiar. a flying familiar has better applications for a long range scout. (I'm presuming you are looking at an outdoors type scout on the principle that one that cares not a whiff for finding traps or secret doors is less than optimal indoors). Although sooner or later a few divination spells will catch you up.
I count 23 AC based on feats dex and spells alone. for 6th level that will definately hold your own. that said as a rogue you have the proficiency to dump mage armour for regular armour of equivilent ac value.
Holding your own in combat seems covered. Finesse plus levels indicates an attack bonus of +7. for a 3/4 BAB having more bonus to hit than HD is optimal enough for support fighting. Your HP are concerning though, so I encourage upping the AC to compensate (slot in combat expertise).
Your sneak attack is less useful in your capacity as a scout. being 90 feet ahead of a party means that you have less opportunity for flanking, which is frankly the bread and butter of the rogue sneak attack. Might I suggest combing deadly aim with true strike for those early suprise rounds (or at least guidance).
Summary:
AC is adequate for combat (though you only really will have +4 of that for a single minute a day)
To Hit bonus: adequate.
HP: Lower than is good for a combatant. fine for support. compensation should be in the form of combat expertise or regular armour.
Damage: Poor, except when he can take advantage of a flat footed foe. Bluff is unreliable, and it's hard to flank when you are scouting ahead of the rest of the party.
Feats: dodge/mobility is good for moving into flanking position and fleeing. then again so is good ranks of tumble and the withdraw manoevre.
Scouting: (Indoors) relies on stealth and perception skills. Perception would be good for finding traps and secret doors. The inability to bypass them though makes the scout less useful
Scouting: (outdoors) I recommend survival and maybe knowledge nature or knowledge local. a few 'enemy' languages as well. your familiar will be better for you if it can fly in these instances.
Batts
I would ask two things:
1) Are you planning to focus more on scouting or combat, because it makes a difference?
2) Are you restricted from any books or to any set of books in your game?
EDIT: I relocated my post so as not to break up Ardenup's posts.
If your GM doesn't let you use those 3.5 cheesey power up books, go with the improved feint/skill focus (bluff) angle. The new pathfinder rules about being able to sneak attack most creatures makes it that much better and you got low Cha so every bonus is better.
for just the core book, take a look at a half-orc rogue
a) darkvision
b) speed 30ft
c) proficient in greataxewith a focus on Strength rather than Dexterity (say, Str 18, Dex 16), you can deal 1d12+6 at 1st level, before Sneak Attack. That's on average 7 more points than a 12 Str rogue with a shortsword.
Enjoy!
The Falchion is also a good option. Take the Telling Blow feat from PHBII to take advantage of the higher crit range. Every time you crit you also get to add your sneak attack damage, even if you wouldn't normally.
On a crit: 4d4 + STR 1/2 (twice) + sneak attack is pretty nasty. Oils of Keen Weapon are your friend. (15-20 crit range)
The Falchion is also a good option. Take the Telling Blow feat from PHBII to take advantage of the higher crit range. Every time you crit you also get to add your sneak attack damage, even if you wouldn't normally.
On a crit: 4d4 + STR 1/2 (twice) + sneak attack is pretty nasty. Oils of Keen Weapon are your friend. (15-20 crit range)
He said just the core rulebook, which is the ideal game setting for Pathfinder IMHO, so none of that PHBII stuff.
Just to revise the the improved feint angle. If you'd rather not waste a feat taking skill focus (bluff) you can always choose toughness for more hit points or power attack which can boost damage just in case you are up against a monster you can't sneak attack.
I'm creating a combat Rogue. The conception of the character isn't a thief, but more of a scout: useful in combat with groups. I don't care about traps or locks, or anything like that. (I would post my character to this thread, but it's been closed.) My constraints are 20 points and 6th level, but don't let that constrain you in your comments.
5th level Rogue / 1st level Wizard - Human
STR 12, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 13
(+2 DEX for Human, +1 DEX for 4th level)Feats: Weapon Finesse, 2 Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Mobility
Rogue Talents: Bleeding, Slow Reaction, Fast Stealth
Wizard Stuff: Favored school = Divination, familiar = viper
I have $10K to spend on items, so I'm buying an Elvish Cloak, Elvish Boots, and a +2 Dex belt.
The one level of wizard gives me the familiar (+3 bluff, or +3 stealth if I take a cat), the divination bonus of always being able to act in the surprise round, and the spells Shield (+4 AC), Mage Armor (another +4 AC), and Expeditious Retreat (double movement). Seems like a really good deal in exchange for 1 level of Rogue.
I wonder about taking Resiliency instead of one of the Rogue talents. And about taking Combat Expertise and Improved Feint instead of 2WF and one of the Rogue talents -- not sure which is more important. Slow Reaction seems redundant, given how easily I can avoid AoO. And how valuable is Bleeding, anyway?
Anything comments or reactions? Anything else I should be thinking about?
Or you could be a trip machine:
Wield 2 Sickles1st TWF (2 light weapons equals only a -2/-2 penalty, though it should be less, imo)
2nd Talent Weapon Focus
3rd Combat Expertise
4th Talent Weapon Finesse
5th Improved Disarm
6th Talent Bleeding
If you are relying on Flanks for Sneak Attacks, then pump Acrobatics and get some boots to up your speed (Boots of Striding and Springing). By 5th level, no more AoO for tripping and by 9th level, you can take Improved TWF and have 5 attacks a round. That's a good amount of potential Sneak Attack/Trip opportunities!
I'm creating a combat Rogue. The conception of the character isn't a thief, but more of a scout: useful in combat with groups. I don't care about traps or locks, or anything like that. (I would post my character to this thread, but it's been closed.) My constraints are 20 points and 6th level, but don't let that constrain you in your comments.
5th level Rogue / 1st level Wizard - Human
STR 12, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 13
(+2 DEX for Human, +1 DEX for 4th level)Feats: Weapon Finesse, 2 Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Mobility
Rogue Talents: Bleeding, Slow Reaction, Fast Stealth
Wizard Stuff: Favored school = Divination, familiar = viper
I have $10K to spend on items, so I'm buying an Elvish Cloak, Elvish Boots, and a +2 Dex belt.
The one level of wizard gives me the familiar (+3 bluff, or +3 stealth if I take a cat), the divination bonus of always being able to act in the surprise round, and the spells Shield (+4 AC), Mage Armor (another +4 AC), and Expeditious Retreat (double movement). Seems like a really good deal in exchange for 1 level of Rogue.
I wonder about taking Resiliency instead of one of the Rogue talents. And about taking Combat Expertise and Improved Feint instead of 2WF and one of the Rogue talents -- not sure which is more important. Slow Reaction seems redundant, given how easily I can avoid AoO. And how valuable is Bleeding, anyway?
Anything comments or reactions? Anything else I should be thinking about?
I'm currently playing a Combat Rogue having asked the boards for advice and I can share with you what I've learned.
Improved Feint is a waste of time.
Two weapon fighting is the way to go.
Your Saves are not good for melee so you'll want to look at that weakness as soon as possible [cloak of resistance]. Fort save is going to struggle with Poisons and Diseases, Will save is going to struggle with mind control.
I took a level of Wizard [specialist Transmuter, free +1 bonus to a Physical Stat], and I gained +2 to will saves [class], +2 to Fort saves [Rat familiar]. Instant access to Arcane magic. Well worth the level imo. If your DM will allow it consider Practised Spellcaster Feat as this will make you a 5th level caster and you'll be able to scribe Shield at a higher level [longer duration] plus spells like Cat's Grace, Protection from Evil [mind control is your friend!], Mirror Image & Fireball!
Pump your Acrobatics to tumble into flanking positions and save up to buy Boots of Speed [you will never regret it].
With your Dex bonus [cat's grace] and Mage Armour & Shield, plus Protection from Evil, you're not going to get hit hardly ever and you can always go with some Mirror Images or Invisibility if you really need to.
If you pick a Piercing Weapon, you may want to look at Duelist Prestige Class which adds AC, Initiative, damage, improved Mobility AC, parry others attacks, Combat Reflexes & bonus to Reflex saves. So that'll be everything you want as a melee Rogue!
As this build isn't Charisma dependant [if you drop the Feint idea] you could also consider a level of Cleric for +2 Will & Fort, Divine wand use, Domains etc.
As for your stats, I'd drop the Cha to 8 and pump your Int [if Duelist is appealing] , or Wis [if a level of Cleric is appealing] for better Will saves.
Pump your Saves, it will save you life!
I'm creating a combat Rogue.
If you mail me, I'll mail you my 7th level character sheet.
tricky dot bob at sky dot com
Feats: 2 Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Great Fortitude & Iron Will
Rogue Talents: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Mobility[Combat Trick]
This is one of those build vs. concept dilemmas. Do you really want to create a "stand in front" fighter/rogue that fights good, or are you simply looking for the best way to make a rogue unhittable?
If you are looking for the latter then the whole wizard-1/rogue-x/fighter-x, spellcasting cheese build makes perfest sense.
however if your goal is the former, then you should go the improved feint/toughness/power attack route.
I don't see how anyone who has actually played Pathfinder can tell me improved feint is worthless. I have a fighter-2/rogue-3, with a mithril breastplate and elven curved blade that either dominates or holds his own at the front with the fighter and paladin. All it took was feinting/power attack and toughness.
When set upon by multiple enemies and I can;t bounce around for flanking, I can easily feint most humanoid enemies, and when that fails I flip to power attack and take a -2 for an extra +6 points of damage.
21 Ac unbuffed
46 hps
+8/1d10+9 power attack
+10/1d10+3 + 2d6 sneak attack (flanking or feinting)
+8/1d10+9+2d6 power attack+sneak)
This is at lvel 5
Is this the sneak attack king or 28 AC beast? nope, it's just an extremely viable high dex, cheese free adventurer/swordsman
I don't see how anyone who has actually played Pathfinder can tell me improved feint is worthless.
It's not that it's "worthless", just that using a move action to Feint when you have multiple attacks or two-weapon fighting isn't a good idea.
As for your build,
Your damage output is good, once you're in position and are willing to use a move action to Feint.
Question, if the monster you target takes a 5-foot step away from you, can you 5-foot step toward the monster, then use a move action to Feint, and then attack in the same round?
Personally I think there should be a Feat that allows Feint as a Swift action.
Here's my take on a combat rogue... some of the ideas have already been posted..
Halforc going rogue all the way...
1) Dodge
2) Talent (weapon focus: Greataxe)(weapon Training)
3) Power Attack
4) Talent (surprise Attack)
5) Skill Focus (intimidate)
6) Talent (bleeding attack)
7) Dazzling Display
8) Talent (Shatter Defense)(Combat Trick)
9) Intimidating Prowess
10)Talent (Opportunist)
11) Persuasive
Naturally you want a high strength and an ok charisma, but since by lvl 11 you'll have a +26 to intimidate without taking into acount your abilitiscores, well... ;-)
You can spend a full-round action on giving most guys -2 to hit due to them being shaken and it will last quite some time most likely.. I know this is not coming up right away but you want something to dream for, right?
Just my version, or one of them... I can give you this alternate build, which is in most way the same...
Only this one is human
Rogue 1 Dodge, Two-weapon fighting
Rogue 2 Talent (Finesse Rogue) Yes, yes I know you could take it as a regular feat, but this is how I chose it..
Rogue 3 Quick Draw, yay! Draw your daggers real lightning quick. Good thing when you get more attacks and you can throw more daggers...
Rogue 4 Talent Weapon training, weapon focus (dagger)
Rogue 5 Dazzling Display, as others have said, use a full round action and shake up your adversaries, giving them a -2 penalty to attacks and such..
Rogue 6 Talent (Minor Magic: Mage Hand) my choice, gives you that jedi feel ;-) and can be useful in lots of ways, but that's just a personal preference...
Rogue 7 Skill Focus (Intimidate)
Rogue 8 Talent: Major Magic (Shield), A nice little AC boost when you're up close and personal...
Rogue 9 Shatter Defence, yay! Now you can sneak those that are shaken, frightened or panicked... Which means most of your opponents...
Rogue 10 Talent Improved Evasion, a must have in my eyes....
Rogue 11 Improved two-weapon fighting
Rogue 12 Talent Dispelling attack: Enter the magekiller/hunter.. ;-) every sneak becomes a dispel magic attempt as well...
So focus on charisma and max out your intimidate and dex of course, always dex....
Edit: Forgot Use Magic Device!! To bring in some nice magic from wands and such... Around lvl 10 with good cha you will rarely fail your check...
Enjoy!
Use Magic Devise
Some of us can't wait until level 10 to access "some magic" !!
A 5' step is a free action, but prevents any further movement that turn. You can still use a move action to feint.
Personally, I reckon that improved feint works as is. Being able to get a sneak attack and multiple attacks every round would be utterly ridiculous, and the vital strike tree makes up for not being able to make more than one attack.
Feinting as a swift action doesn't have to mean full round attacks. It could be worded so that you could at least move-feint-attack once in a round instead of having to waste a whole round "getting into position" to feint the following round.
Flanking allows you a +2 to attack rolls and full attacks with multiple sneaks, and doesn't require any Feats...
Feinting as a move action requires 2 Feats and 13 INT.??
Feinting as a move action doesn't require you to be able to flank.
I appreciate that in some groups flanking isn't an option, but in most there is usually a Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin in the front line. It's situational I guess but you still need to pass that Bluff check.
Two-weapon fighting on the other hand is only one Feat, allows the same one attack during the "setting-up-a-Feint" round, and then allows full attacks [at the very least 2 and more with a higher bab].
Two attacks at -2 will almost always net a greater chance to hit than one attack with Feint [taking an average Dex bonus loss]. This is true through low to mid levels and only doubtful against a few stupidly high AC monsters at high level play.
I appreciate that in some groups flanking isn't an option, but in most there is usually a Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin in the front line. It's situational I guess but you still need to pass that Bluff check.
Two-weapon fighting on the other hand is only one Feat, allows the same one attack during the "setting-up-a-Feint" round, and then allows full attacks [at the very least 2 and more with a higher bab].
Two attacks at -2 will almost always net a greater chance to hit than one attack with Feint [taking an average Dex bonus loss]. This is true through low to mid levels and only doubtful against a few stupidly high AC monsters at high level play.
It's really all about your GM's style. In my group that flanking is not going to happend very often. You are usually fighting multiple monsters and in order to get into flanking position, you will probably expose yourself to the same. Under these circumstances imrpoved feint has a been a godsend because I also usually find myself defending the wizard and facing 4-5 orc/goblins/cannon fodder. While the cleric, wizard, and Paladin go toe to toe with the BBEG.
What i dont get is choosing a heavy two-hand weapon for a rogue?
At higher levels the base damage of your weapon will be rather low compared to the damage you could potentially get from sneak attack using TWF, at least thats what I've heard from quite a few people.
I mean if you have SA of 5d6 per attack, how could any weapon, even with power attack and high strength bonus, hope to compare with an extra attack.
To me it would seem that basically the idea with a melee combat rogue is to get in as many SA as possible.
Based on that I would throw away any idea of not going for TWF and not getting weapons suitable for TWF. And I would strongly advise against planning on relying on Feint, since that would limit the amount of SA you can put on your enemy. But I do recognize the usefulness of Imp. feint for situations where you cannot flank, but in that case i dont know what would be most beneficial, feint attack or just TWF'ing the f out whomever :) ( maybe someone with experience could shed some light on that situation in particular? )
What i dont get is choosing a heavy two-hand weapon for a rogue?
At higher levels the base damage of your weapon will be rather low compared to the damage you could potentially get from sneak attack using TWF, at least thats what I've heard from quite a few people.
I mean if you have SA of 5d6 per attack, how could any weapon, even with power attack and high strength bonus, hope to compare with an extra attack.
To me it would seem that basically the idea with a melee combat rogue is to get in as many SA as possible.
Based on that I would throw away any idea of not going for TWF and not getting weapons suitable for TWF. And I would strongly advise against planning on relying on Feint, since that would limit the amount of SA you can put on your enemy. But I do recognize the usefulness of Imp. feint for situations where you cannot flank, but in that case i dont know what would be most beneficial, feint attack or just TWF'ing the f out whomever :) ( maybe someone with experience could shed some light on that situation in particular? )
TWF Pros: more attacks, more potential SA dice, more chances to crit, lose benefits if you move and attack, more benefits from multiple enchanted weapons, typically more MAD
TWF Con's: lower chance to hit, can't get multiple SA dice without a flank buddy(persistant dagger is not going to be allowed in a lot of games, however UMD and scrolls of summon monster will), less damage per hit(real problem with some DR), more expensive to enchant 2 weapons
Two-handed Pro's: Less MAD, cheaper to enchant one weapon, more damage on a single hit, less feats required, more benefit from move-attack tactics, better chance to hit
two-handed Con's: Less SA dice, less attacks(fewer chances to crit)
6 attacks with 9d6 sneak attack dice does you no good if you can't set up a sneak attack. If you can set it up via flankers or some other way, TWF is incredible for a rogue, but when you're on your own, one good attack can be just what you need.
The Falchion is also a good option. Take the Telling Blow feat from PHBII to take advantage of the higher crit range. Every time you crit you also get to add your sneak attack damage, even if you wouldn't normally.
On a crit: 4d4 + STR 1/2 (twice) + sneak attack is pretty nasty. Oils of Keen Weapon are your friend. (15-20 crit range)
He said just the core rulebook, which is the ideal game setting for Pathfinder IMHO, so none of that PHBII stuff.
Just to revise the the improved feint angle. If you'd rather not waste a feat taking skill focus (bluff) you can always choose toughness for more hit points or power attack which can boost damage just in case you are up against a monster you can't sneak attack.
Fine so no telling blow... but 4d4 + STR 1/2 (Twice) + Sneak Attack is still nasty. And Oils of Keen Weapon are still your friend. So you don't get the sneak attack for free... so what. The crits are a added plus on top of doing the normal rogue flank/feint/what-have-you.
If you are going Half-orc that is. They do get Falchion proficiency and all.
Some of us can't wait until level 10 to access "some magic" !!
Use Magic Devise
Well... you don't quite have to wait until lvl10...
Using a wand is DC 20, and when I said It'l only rarely fail, it meant on a roll of 1 only... With a fairly good Cha you will succeed roughly 50% of the time around lvl4... But granted, it's definately not something you should rely on.. ;-)
What i dont get is choosing a heavy two-hand weapon for a rogue?
At higher levels the base damage of your weapon will be rather low compared to the damage you could potentially get from sneak attack using TWF, at least thats what I've heard from quite a few people.
I mean if you have SA of 5d6 per attack, how could any weapon, even with power attack and high strength bonus, hope to compare with an extra attack.
To me it would seem that basically the idea with a melee combat rogue is to get in as many SA as possible.
Based on that I would throw away any idea of not going for TWF and not getting weapons suitable for TWF. And I would strongly advise against planning on relying on Feint, since that would limit the amount of SA you can put on your enemy. But I do recognize the usefulness of Imp. feint for situations where you cannot flank, but in that case i dont know what would be most beneficial, feint attack or just TWF'ing the f out whomever :) ( maybe someone with experience could shed some light on that situation in particular? )
TWF Pros: more attacks, more potential SA dice, more chances to crit, lose benefits if you move and attack, more benefits from multiple enchanted weapons, typically more MAD
TWF Con's: lower chance to hit, can't get multiple SA dice without a flank buddy(persistant dagger is not going to be allowed in a lot of games, however UMD and scrolls of summon monster will), less damage per hit(real problem with some DR), more expensive to enchant 2 weapons
Two-handed Pro's: Less MAD, cheaper to enchant one weapon, more damage on a single hit, less feats required, more benefit from move-attack tactics, better chance to hit
two-handed Con's: Less SA dice, less attacks(fewer chances to crit)
6 attacks with 9d6 sneak attack dice does you no good if you can't set up a sneak attack. If you can set it up via flankers or some other way, TWF is incredible for a rogue, but when you're on your own, one good attack can be just what you need.
Yeah you got some great points there. Got me thinking. But I would still claim that the potential damage from a pure rogue with TFW is high enough to outweigh the cons.
Another ting, even though the chance to hit is lower with TWF on a hit-to-hit basis, dont you think that the higher amounts of attacks makes the probability of hitting higher? Probably not against high AC targets, but at least against low-mid ?
I'm creating a combat Rogue. The conception of the character isn't a thief, but more of a scout: useful in combat with groups. I don't care about traps or locks, or anything like that. (I would post my character to this thread, but it's been closed.) My constraints are 20 points and 6th level, but don't let that constrain you in your comments.
There is the Scout class from Complete Adventurer, maybe a Rogue/Scout of some sort, or probably just Scout entirely. There are a number of alternate class features you can switch Trapfinding and/or Trap Sense for. If you're interested in that I can jot down a quick note of what they are and which official WotC source you'll find it in.
Yeah you got some great points there. Got me thinking. But I would still claim that the potential damage from a pure rogue with TFW is high enough to outweigh the cons.
Another ting, even though the chance to hit is lower with TWF on a hit-to-hit basis, dont you think that the higher amounts of attacks makes the probability of hitting higher? Probably not against high AC targets, but at least against low-mid ?
The answer is again.. it really depends. If you have a high armored opponent you could just end up whiffing 4-5 times a round. If you feinted you drop his AC making him flat-footed and then swing once with a higher +hit, better chance of hitting.
If you're fighting low AC opponents TWF is awesome. You can make either one work, but you do want to take into account what you expect to come across. If you are playing a fighter-rogue or ranger-rogue and are the party's main fighter, supported by a bard, a wizard, and a cleric, you may not have a flank buddy. Now if you can convince the wizard bard or sorcerer to summon you a flanker, then TWF becomes an option again.
If your group has a fighter, a paladin, you playing a rogue, and a cleric, you can probably count on flanking with the paladin or fighter a good percentage of the time. Note that even as a pure rogue there are enemies you will not be able to flank, and improved feint will be about the only way you can reasonably expect to sneak attack them.
Armor and weapon training, and moving full speed in medium/heavy armor now makes a fighter-rogue a really good option for a skillful party tank.
Yeah you got some great points there. Got me thinking. But I would still claim that the potential damage from a pure rogue with TFW is high enough to outweigh the cons.
Another ting, even though the chance to hit is lower with TWF on a hit-to-hit basis, dont you think that the higher amounts of attacks makes the probability of hitting higher? Probably not against high AC targets, but at least against low-mid ?
The answer is again.. it really depends. If you have a high armored opponent you could just end up whiffing 4-5 times a round. If you feinted you drop his AC making him flat-footed and then swing once with a higher +hit, better chance of hitting.
If you're fighting low AC opponents TWF is awesome. You can make either one work, but you do want to take into account what you expect to come across. If you are playing a fighter-rogue or ranger-rogue and are the party's main fighter, supported by a bard, a wizard, and a cleric, you may not have a flank buddy. Now if you can convince the wizard bard or sorcerer to summon you a flanker, then TWF becomes an option again.
If your group has a fighter, a paladin, you playing a rogue, and a cleric, you can probably count on flanking with the paladin or fighter a good percentage of the time. Note that even as a pure rogue there are enemies you will not be able to flank, and improved feint will be about the only way you can reasonably expect to sneak attack them.
Armor and weapon training, and moving full speed in medium/heavy armor now makes a fighter-rogue a really good option for a skillful party tank.
Yeah that's pretty much what I would conclude. I guess one of the reasons that I'm so pro-TWF is that I always assume that the rogue will have someone else tanking the mobs. I wouldn't even choose to play rogue if there was no heavy melee class to play ball with :)
Oy, I forgot the best part. If you want to play an arcane trickster Improved feint is the best ability. Flat-footed enemies can't make AoO's. So you feint, make him flat-footed, then you sneak attack vampiric touch him.
Oy, I forgot the best part. If you want to play an arcane trickster Improved feint is the best ability. Flat-footed enemies can't make AoO's. So you feint, make him flat-footed, then you sneak attack vampiric touch him.
Ouch :/ I would consider that not being very nice >.< Why cant we just solve things in a peaceful civilized way?
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Oy, I forgot the best part. If you want to play an arcane trickster Improved feint is the best ability. Flat-footed enemies can't make AoO's. So you feint, make him flat-footed, then you sneak attack vampiric touch him.
He is not flat-footed, but denied his Dex bonus. Big difference, as he can still make AoOs.
BTW, I did not see Improved Init in any of the builds above, which makes absolutely no sense for me, especially for a Diviner.
You desperately need to get your foe flat-footed (even moreso with grasshopper's reminder of the no-AoO rule), especially if you are far from your buddies.
I am personnaly thinking about taking my combat rogue the Arcane Trickster way to get a lot of touch attacks with sneak (through flanking).
BTW, to the OP : what are your 2 prohibited schools ? Not necromancy, I hope (Chill Touch FTW).
Deyvantius, there is no need to start throwing around insults and disrespecting other people's posts and style of game play just because you only use the "sacred core" in your games. The original poster has stated he is only using the core rule book and so people should read that and acknowledge it, but there is no reason to insult people just because they have other ideas and want to help this guy out. There are plenty of splat-bashing threads out there.
If your GM doesn't let you use those 3.5 cheesey power up books. . .
If you are looking for the latter then the whole wizard-1/rogue-x/fighter-x, spellcasting cheese build makes perfest sense.
I have a fighter-2/rogue-3
Is this the sneak attack king or 28 AC beast? nope, it's just an extremely viable high dex, cheese free adventurer/swordsman
I do find it interesting that you call wizard/fighter/rogue cheese when you openly claim to play a fighter/rogue who is only one class away from the cardinal sin you are condemning. Especially considering there is a whole PrC in the Core Rulebook that is built completely around rogue/caster (Arcane Trickster).
As for the OP: Give me a minute I am still editing this post.
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I don't see how anyone who has actually played Pathfinder can tell me improved feint is worthless. I have a fighter-2/rogue-3, with a mithril breastplate and elven curved blade that either dominates or holds his own at the front with the fighter and paladin. All it took was feinting/power attack and toughness.
When set upon by multiple enemies and I can;t bounce around for flanking, I can easily feint most humanoid enemies, and when that fails I flip to power attack and take a -2 for an extra +6 points of damage.
I believe that you are just 1-level away from hitting a big gap in power with your fighter and paladin friend.
When their BAB gets to 6 and they begin attacking twice.
Of course, you will get it a little later, but if you go for the feint you cannot make more than 1 attack a round, no matter how high your BAB is.
Thus, while feinting the improved way does not cost you much at low levels, it will end up costing you dearly later on.
To compensate for this, you will need the Vital Strike chain, which will need you to stack on Fighter levels, thus reducing your sneak damage (which will not be multiplied as it would with additional attacks anyway).
And no Spring Attack for you, as it is not compatible with the move action required by improved feint.
Apparently I ran out of time editing my last post so here is my opinion for a solid and versatile build for the OP.
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For the OP:
I would drop the level of Wizard, unless you intend to make this guy a sneak / spell caster like the Arcane Trickster. If you have to have that lvl in Wizard I would go with Transmuter or Universalist personally. If you don't have to have it, I would load up on Use Magic Device which will not only let you use arcane devices but also divine devices, which is very handy.
Transmuter will give you an extra point to put anywhere you want on your stats: Put that point in Dex and that natural 21 becomes a 22 which raises your Initiative by the same 1 point you would get from Diviner. You also will get +1 to hit by raising your Dex if you go with Weapon Finesse. And it will increase most of your abilities. With your current Stat build you could also throw that point onto Cha every once in a while to give yourself a 14 and raise your inter-personal skills.
Transmuter also gives you Telekinetic Fist, which is a ranged touch attack that can be done 3 + Int bonus times/day. That can be used to deliver a ranged touch attack and gain Sneak Attack. Range 30 feet, perfect for SA.
I would also go with the Arcane Bond, not a familiar. In my experience most familiars just end up neglected and are of very little use. Arcane Bond gives you one free spontaneous spell per day of any spell you know.
If you go Universalist you get the Hand of the Apprentice ability. This ability causes your melee weapon to fly up to 30' and strike an opponent 3 + Int bonus times/day. Functions as a thrown weapon but uses Int modifier instead of Str modifier (to hit, not damage). Also very useful for gaining ranged Sneak Attacks.
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If you want a front line Fighter/Rogue type who Bluffs every round to get SA then there are several suggestions of how to make a pretty devastating character in the posts above. Personally the only advantage I see to the Feinting tactic is either if you intend to fight a lot of enemies with uncanny dodge or you intend to take the Invisible Blade PrC and go all the way up the Feinting feat tree to Greater Feint. My opinion would be to pick up Improved Feint if you have spare feats in the future and want a backup plan to Stealth, but I wouldn't base an entire character around that tactic, just me.
If you want a guy who sneaks ahead of the party scouting the path for enemies and when he finds them is capable of both dealing out death and surviving long enough for his support to catch up you might consider something like this.
Go Human for the extra skill points and feat at 1st lvl. With 6 lvls of Rogue you will get 3 Rogue Talents.
1st lvl feats: Dodge and Skill Focus (Stealth) (or possibly Improved Initiative if you feel you need help going first in combat).
2nd lvl Rogue Talent: Finesse Rogue.
3rd lvl Feat: Mobility.
4th lvl Rogue Talent: Slow Reactions (or Fast Stealth if you want to move full speed without the -5).
5th lvl Feat: Combat Reflexes.
6th lvl Rogue Talent: Bleeding Attack.
At 7th lvl take the Shadowdancer prestige class and get at least 2 lvls in it (if you want to go further do it but take at least 2).
7th lvl Feat: Depends on what you took at lvl 1. If you took Skill Focus then you should probably look at: Improved Initiative, Stealthy or Spring Attack (or Point Blank Shot/Shot on the Run if you prefer ranged combat) If you took Improved Initiative then I would look at: Skill Focus (Stealth) or Spring Attack.
Whether you choose to continue in Shadowdancer or not I would go back to Rogue for at least two lvls after the two lvls of Shadowdancer. You will get another d6 of SA and you can pick up either Slow Reactions or Fast Stealth (whichever you didn't get at 4th lvl). Personally I would probably stay with Rogue after this if you want a more combat oriented guy and I would pick up things like Agile Maneuvers, Improved Trip, Improved Feint, or go for TWF. I would also get Crippling Strike for your first Advanced Rogue Talent, probably followed by either Improved Evasion or Defensive Roll.
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The build I have presented would be very useful even at lvl 6 but will get absolutely nasty at 7 & 8 (Then if you take lvls in Rogue again until you get Crippling Strike it will be devastating). If you got Skill Focus (Stealth) at lvl 1 and Spring Attack at lvl 7, then went on with Rogue and took Fast Stealth at lvl 10 (8th Rogue) and Crippling Strike at lvl 12 (10 Rogue) it would look something like the following:
You would have a 23 Dex which is a +6 bonus.
Your Initiative would be +6. (+10 if you pick up Improved Initiative)
AC would be around 19 (21 with Mithral Chain Shirt)
BAB would be +8/+3 and with Weapon Finesse that is +14/+9
You will do 5d6 of SA and be able to use Slow Reactions, Bleeding Attack, or Crippling Strike on any SA.
Your Stealth will be +27 (+31 if you also get Sneaky).
You have Hide in Plain Sight (which is HUGE).
You have Darkvision (which is also HUGE, you can’t get SA when in dim light/darkness without it).
And all of this is before you even cast a spell or gear this guy out with magic. Personally I would buy minimal magical equipment for this character and would save money for Boots of Speed 12,000gp. When hasted you get +1 to AC, Attack Bonuses, and Reflex Saves. You also get +30 to your movement speed up to double your movement speed. Finally you get one extra attack on a full attack at your highest BAB. All that for 10 rounds per day which do not have to be all at the same time.
That brings your AC up to 20/22 and attacks on a Full Attack to +15/+15/+10 plus if you have Fast Stealth you can now move 60’ per turn as a Move Action while Stealth and not take the -5 penalty to your check.
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What this would look like in Combat:
Well let’s say you are 200 feet ahead of your party in a fairly thick forest. You are scouting as you usually do and up ahead in a small clearing off the trail you spot a camp fire. Around the camp fire are lounging six bandits. You can sneak right up into their camp and behind the first one virtually invisible and get a Surprise Round Sneak Attack before they even know you are there (Apply Bleeding Attack). Second round of combat you probably go first due to your blinding speed (+6 Initiative/+10 with Improved Initiative) so you get a full attack (with one extra attack if you have Boots of Speed – BoS) with SA on every attack against the guy you started combat against and he is going to take another 5 damage on top of it from Bleed (Now add Crippling Strike to the first two attacks and third if you have BoS). The first guy has now taken 3 or 4 attacks with full SA and extra 5 damage from Bleeding Strike and is down 4 or 6 points of Str damage and it is only the first round of combat. That is an average of about 62–81 damage so far and he still has 4 rounds of Bleed (By the way he shouldn’t realize he is bleeding yet, he will realize next round if you don’t attack him and he still takes damage). Now at the end of your turn you take a 5-foot step and use Stealth to vanish back into the shadows. The bandits are going to start scrambling not knowing where you are (you were only visible for a grand total of 9 seconds) and even if they correctly guess your square they have a 50% miss chance to hit you unless their Perception was high enough to beat your Stealth check when you hid. If they didn’t see you but want to find you it is a move action to actively search for you (Granting a second Perception check but if you rolled even a 10 you will have between 37 and 41 without magical aid and the average NPC probably doesn’t have more than a +17 to Perception so he will have to roll a 20 to beat your average Stealth check). Now let’s say during their turns you notice one of them isn’t wearing any armor and has a book hung at his waist (OH GOODY, A Wizard!) So you move 15 feet over to him and Stab him once rally good give him an average of 19 points of damage and I would give him some Bleed too. Then if you have Spring Attack you can use your remaining 45’ of movement to move anywhere you like and regain the cover of Stealth (if you are worried about AoO then use Slow Reactions vs. Bleed and he won't be able to AoO you as you leave). Personally, I would just circle the caster and hope he is stupid enough to stay there, even if he moves though he gets a nice parting gift in the form of AoO. (Now the first guy has taken about 67-86 damage with his next iteration of Bleeding). The Caster decides to take a 5-foot step and cast Shield. Third round: (Bleed- thug is now at 72-91 = probably dead unless he received healing / Wizard is at -24.) You move 5' to the caster and make a single attack which applies SA so you do an additional average 19 points of damage and give him a Crippling Strike (Slow Reactions if you are concerned about AoO) then take the rest of your movement to re-Stealth and re-position. Fourth Round: (Thug – 77-96 and Wizard – 48.) At this point your party, assuming they didn’t get to participate in the surprise round and took a double move each round, enters the fight and out of 6 bandit / mercenary thug types, two are nearly dead if not dead and all are disoriented. Oh and by the way, they still have no idea where you are at and will be completely caught off guard when you appear behind the guy your party’s Fighter is attacking and get a full attack + SA on him then disappear again.
So this is a rough example of the goal that this build would aspire to by lvl 12. In the same scenario, if you rely on Feinting you are going to need a very high AC and HP to make up for being ganged up on by 6 guys for 4 rounds before your party gets to you. I just demonstrated how a Stealthy Rogue can do the same amount of damage to his enemies as the Feinting guy can, except the Stealth guy can do it and never get hit.
Also consider that you can focus almost entirely on Dex because it increases your attack bonus, AC, Stealth, Initiative, and a number of other Rogue abilities. The one thing it doesn't do is increase your damage but that is fine because that is what SA is for.
Oy, I forgot the best part. If you want to play an arcane trickster Improved feint is the best ability. Flat-footed enemies can't make AoO's. So you feint, make him flat-footed, then you sneak attack vampiric touch him.He is not flat-footed, but denied his Dex bonus. Big difference, as he can still make AoOs.
BTW, I did not see Improved Init in any of the builds above, which makes absolutely no sense for me, especially for a Diviner.
You desperately need to get your foe flat-footed (even moreso with grasshopper's reminder of the no-AoO rule), especially if you are far from your buddies.
I am personnaly thinking about taking my combat rogue the Arcane Trickster way to get a lot of touch attacks with sneak (through flanking).
BTW, to the OP : what are your 2 prohibited schools ? Not necromancy, I hope (Chill Touch FTW).
Well I'll be darned.. I stand corrected.. devil's in the details huh :) Still works for sneaky spells just have to cast defensively. I agree improved init should be priority number 1 at level 1, with decent dex you will almost always be able to sneak attack someone that first round, and that's enough to drop an enemy at that level.
As to the person who said not to go diviner, diviner is hands down the best level 1 wizard specialist. Going in the surprise round always no matter what is incredible for anyone, for a rogue it's just icing on the cake
I believe that you are just 1-level away from hitting a big gap in power with your fighter and paladin friend.
When their BAB gets to 6 and they begin attacking twice.
Of course, you will get it a little later, but if you go for the feint you cannot make more than 1 attack a round, no matter how high your BAB is.
Thus, while feinting the improved way does not cost you much at low levels, it will end up costing you dearly later on.
To compensate for this, you will need the Vital Strike chain, which will need you to stack on Fighter levels, thus reducing your sneak damage (which will not be multiplied as it would with additional attacks anyway).
And no Spring Attack for you, as it is not compatible with the move action required by improved feint.
Personally I have always found Spring Attack to be over-rated. If I wanted to nail peeople without fear of being hurt, I would just use a ranged weapon. vital Strike is nice too, but my sneak attack can add +3d6 damage, whereas Vital Strike just doubles my regular damage.
Personally I have always found Spring Attack to be over-rated. If I wanted to nail peeople without fear of being hurt, I would just use a ranged weapon. vital Strike is nice too, but my sneak attack can add +3d6 damage, whereas Vital Strike just doubles my regular damage.
I believe that you are just 1-level away from hitting a big gap in power with your fighter and paladin friend.
When their BAB gets to 6 and they begin attacking twice.
Of course, you will get it a little later, but if you go for the feint you cannot make more than 1 attack a round, no matter how high your BAB is.
Thus, while feinting the improved way does not cost you much at low levels, it will end up costing you dearly later on.
To compensate for this, you will need the Vital Strike chain, which will need you to stack on Fighter levels, thus reducing your sneak damage (which will not be multiplied as it would with additional attacks anyway).
And no Spring Attack for you, as it is not compatible with the move action required by improved feint.
Agreed. Spring Attack is still a Move Action, so you only get one attack, regardless.
Yeah that's pretty much what I would conclude. I guess one of the reasons that I'm so pro-TWF is that I always assume that the rogue will have someone else tanking the mobs. I wouldn't even choose to play rogue if there was no heavy melee class to play ball with :)
Just a note on TWF for a rogue. Most of thsoe extra attacks with the second weapon after the first are like -5 and -10 which means they are highly unlikely to hit. If you are fighting a bunch of chumps you will look good, but then again you will look good doing that regardless. I can see the angle of rolling a D20 5x in order to hit once or twice, so I don't deny the usefulness of this technique, but my main motivation is being a useful striker in every situation. If sneak attack isn't there, I hit hard with vital strike and power attack.
Often times the TWF build is an idea that doesnt work so well in actual gameplay. Maybe it's just the games I've been in, but more often times than not, I've seen the rogue roll 5 dice only to miss on every roll due to his many -s associated with the various TWF feats.
If he does get his massive damage, he immediately becomes a target (as well he should) and ends up scrambling around the room the remainder of the time, trying to avoid getting exposed for his low hps.
As to the person who said not to go diviner, diviner is hands down the best level 1 wizard specialist. Going in the surprise round always no matter what is incredible for anyone, for a rogue it's just icing on the cake
I would be among this group I think. I don't disagree that Diviner is a really good Specialist Wizard class to take. Those abilities are very nice for a Rogue. But it will largely depend on the build you go with for your Rogue. If you intend to be the one initiating most of the surprise rounds, then the Diviner power isn't going to come into play a whole lot.
Personally I have always found Spring Attack to be over-rated. If I wanted to nail peeople without fear of being hurt, I would just use a ranged weapon.
It is not just useful in those situations though. Remember if you come up on a guy who is flanked hit him once with Vital Strike + SA you might get that lucky shot and kill him. Then with Spring Attack you can immediately use the rest of your movement speed to close distance to your next target. Just a thought, it is a very good feat for tactical movement through the battle space, as are its prerequisites.
vital Strike is nice too, but my sneak attack can add +3d6 damage, whereas Vital Strike just doubles my regular damage.
I could be wrong but I think if you load up on Vital Strike tree and had a Greatsword. You could do something like: Feint as a move action, then make a standard attack using Vital Strike. You would get your 3d6 SA and would also add 4d6 for double your Greatsword damage. Then if you happen to Crit on the same blow you would get another 2d6. All together that is one strike for between 7 and 9 d6s of damage. That would be UGLY if you were doing that every round to a guy.
Just a note on TWF for a rogue. Most of thsoe extra attacks with the second weapon after the first are like -5 and -10 which means they are highly unlikely to hit. If you are fighting a bunch of chumps you will look good, but then again you will look good doing that regardless. I can see the angle of rolling a D20 5x in order to hit once or twice, so I don't deny the usefulness of this technique, but my main motivation is being a useful striker in every situation. If sneak attack isn't there, I hit hard with vital strike and power attack.
Often times the TWF build is an idea that doesnt work so well in actual gameplay. Maybe it's just the games I've been in, but more often times than not, I've seen the rogue roll 5 dice only to miss on every roll due to his many -s associated with the various TWF feats.
If he does get his massive damage, he immediately becomes a target (as well he should) and ends up scrambling around the room the remainder of the time, trying to avoid getting exposed for his low hps.
Agreed, I have been on the ugly end of a TWF Rogue's attacks, but when I play a Rogue I usually won't bother taking TWF until later levels when I have a high enough BAB to handle it and enough magical gear to still be able to hit something.
NOTE: However, the TWF guy does always have the option of putting one blade away if he is having trouble hitting a particular opponent and gaining a +2 to all his attacks. This is something a lot of guys don’t think about.