I was unaware of that WOTC once put out a book on legacy weapons. I think the concept really rocks as a non-standard reward, because one of the observations I hear about D&D and PFRPG is the accumulation of magic junk.. versus building the character up to be a hero and a legend.
So legacy weapons sound really cool. I knew that system existed in Earthdawn, but didn't know WOTC tried to tackle it.
Is there any chance we might see Paizo tackle it for one of their Guides?
Admittedly, it might be more logical in the GameMastery Guide as a treasure.. But one could also argue that as a weapon that grows with the actual PC, it wouldn't be totally insane to ut it in the Players Guide. I dunno.
Bottom Line: This seems like a great non-standard reward system to offset traditional rewards which are often a flood of magic items.
I hope this is considered.
(Caveat: I know I could hunt up the WOTC book.. but I don't own many old WOC books now, and don't want to go backwards if I can help it)
...I knew that system existed in Earthdawn...
Correction: Exists. ;) (We just put out 3rd Edition!)
Correction: Exists. ;) (We just put out 3rd Edition!)
...I knew that system existed in Earthdawn...
Good!
See what you can do in this edition Hank!
I like this idea. I've certainly played enough Japanese RPG's where this was a given. I'm not sure I'd use the exact mechanics of the WOTC book, but the basic idea--weapons that level up and improve alongside their bearer--is a good one.
The 3.5 Soulknife from EPH has this ability to a degree already, in fact.
I'll be doing something along these lines next year when I roll up a new character w/ a special connection to his sword.
Yeah, I like the idea too, but not so much the way it was presented in the 3.5 Weapons of Legacy splatbook.
For one, it seems that just about every benefit came with a loss somewhere else. Nobody wants to have to take -2 HP (permanently) so that their weapon can gain the Scent ability. Nobody wants to take -1 to their saving throws so that their weapon can get +1 to hit and damage. Etc.
I think they did it because the weapons can get abilities every level or two, and if there were no compensating penalties, the weapons would be immensely overpowered.
A slower progression of weapon abilities would probably eliminate the need for penalties. Further, some abilities are better than others, so the 'ordinar' abilities might not need penalties, while some of the 'powerful' abilities might come with a penalty on the side - this would ensure that the weapons are more balanced.
Another issue I had was having to quest in order to gain more powers on the weapon. It occurred to me that if I decided to play a game where everyone had a Legacy weapon, there would be certain levels where all we did was quest for our weapons. That would be very disruptive to a campaign with an ongoing story that ideally wouldn't wait for heroes to get back from multiple irrelevent side quests.
Heck, even one legacy weapon would be problematic. "Uh, hey, Mr. Evil Necromancer, would you mind not attacking any more villages for the next couple weeks while we run off to a lost temple on the other side of the continent to improve our fighter's weapon?"
Maybe if questing were optional. Maybe if other methods abound, like research, divinations, or just spending some quality alone time with the weapon.
I also had an issue with having to burn feats to get better with the weapon. Multiple feats. Heck, in 3.5, most people only got 7 feats. Using two or three to gain control of the weapon was almost punitive. It almost forced these weapons to be only useful for fighters.
So, while I like the idea of growing weapons, I need a whole different system before the Legacy idea will appeal to me very much.
I'm all up for a Pathfinder version that is unlike what WOTC has done.
I'm all about the end result, which is a balanced way to improve an item as opposed to giving an entirely new item. A non-standard reward that builds upon the character's story.
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I suppose one simple way to do it would be just to withhold a treasure at some point, and grant an increase in the weapon, which would be of roughly an equal value to what they would have otherwise found..
I'm someone who wasn't a fan of Weapons of Legacy, either, for the various losses people have to take. There is a much better idea though.
For those who are unaware, check out the legendary weapons at www.d20srd.org for the original- and better, IMHO- idea, although I'm not sure that a PC should need to take PrC levels for it, as that part seems to be about sacrificing class abilities for weapon abilities. Maybe it could be Pathfinderized?
That certainly is an interesting idea... But yeah, the PrC part leaves me uncertain.
What about just dropping a few feats on the concept, instead of entering a PrC? I had toyed with the idea that, instead of getting your (somewhat confusing) "free" feat with a Weapon of Legacy for performing a ritual, and than also loosing the money for the ritual and loosing whatever balance you had to give up, the character could just perform the ritual and spend the feat for least, lesser, and greater legacies of the weapon, but I'm not sure how well this would work in practice.
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We used legendary weapons before WOTC released their book. While I liked some of their concepts the mechanics just did not work for us.
The way we dealt with these weapons was every 5th level we could redirect a set amount of XP toward the weapon. This XP was essentially the amount of XP needed to be spent to add a special ability to a weapon.
You did not loose the XP unless the weapon was destroyed. Otherwise your XP was treated as perfectly normal.
However, since Pathfinder no longer uses XP for making magic items I don't think that system would work now. And honestly I would not be thrilled with having to give up a Feat either.
I think the whole "bonus + penalty" thing is a legacy issue from 1st edition artifacts and onwards. Which I always disliked.
Not sure what an ideal replacement to the WoL book would be, but it sorely needs reworking.
One idea would be a version of a Runeblade (?) class, a type of Gish that, as s/he gains new levels and access to more powerful runes, would be able to empower the weapon as such. Again, the basic pattern of the Soulknife gives me some good ideas.
I was unaware of that WOTC once put out a book on legacy weapons. I think the concept really rocks as a non-standard reward, because one of the observations I hear about D&D and PFRPG is the accumulation of magic junk.. versus building the character up to be a hero and a legend.
So I finally took a look at Legacy Weapons. If you want Earthdawn-type legendary weapons, then that is what you want to use. It's straight up from Earthdawn, from having to learn about the weapon's history, to performing rituals/deeds to unlock more powers.
The problem most people have with these concepts is usually two types.
1. Cost, most people don't want their characters losing numerical bonuses even if in trade to get powers has them coming out ahead. Others like me who are very big on the "Great power has it's price" school of thought like the Weapons of Legacy and the Earthdawn concept of thread binding.
2. Commitment. The Scion classes are essentially a matter of nailing you down to a specific item even if a new shiny comes across your path. Scions should not be arbitrairily used, they should either be the pillars around which a campaign is built, (either a single hero scion, or a party all of scions or potential scions as in the ensemble action hero shows so to speak, come to think of it since the old Dungeon and Dragons cartoon characters had no powers or abilities outside thier weapons and such, maybe this might have been a pretest of the concept :)
So I haven't taken a close look at this stuff yet; is there anything to facilitate a player who has the concept of, say, starting with his father's sword? It's unfortunate that in the standard rules, if a player has this as his background, he either has to have his sword upgraded at cost, or simply abandon it for the free magical sword he takes from some slain enemy.
I have a player now who has a weapon he is fond of and wants to grow as he does, and I'm wondering if this book will have something suitable I can use, or if I'll have to design something myself.
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Really, the best way I can think of to handle a "legacy" item is to quietly count loot against the item to pay for the upgrades. Chart out the weapon and the break points for advancement, then determine the effective cost of the weapon at those breakpoints. Between each breakpoint, pull loot out of the adventures equal to the value (or maybe a little less...I'd probably put it at somewhere around 75%, not quite as good as crafting it yourself, but still cheaper than off the rack).
Really, the best way I can think of to handle a "legacy" item is to quietly count loot against the item to pay for the upgrades. Chart out the weapon and the break points for advancement, then determine the effective cost of the weapon at those breakpoints. Between each breakpoint, pull loot out of the adventures equal to the value (or maybe a little less...I'd probably put it at somewhere around 75%, not quite as good as crafting it yourself, but still cheaper than off the rack).
At this point, though, there is nothing different than whenever the PC gets a new weapon that he would normally exchange for his current, saying, "All right, we'll just say your old weapon now has those qualities." Or just having him pay for upgrades regularly. Which is fine, really, but it isn't quite a subsystem.
For one, it seems that just about every benefit came with a loss somewhere else. Nobody wants to have to take -2 HP (permanently) so that their weapon can gain the Scent ability. Nobody wants to take -1 to their saving throws so that their weapon can get +1 to hit and damage. Etc.
I read on a forum somewhere (maybe WotC, maybe somewhere else) that some people just ignore the costs columns for the items. In my wife's campaign, she has done that, too, and we haven't noticed that the sword she built is overpowered.
A slower progression of weapon abilities would probably eliminate the need for penalties. Further, some abilities are better than others, so the 'ordinar' abilities might not need penalties, while some of the 'powerful' abilities might come with a penalty on the side - this would ensure that the weapons are more balanced.
However, I actually like this idea better. When the DM creates the sword, he has three tables to choose from with varying power levels and item "slot" costs. I could see giving a penalty when only the highest level powers are assigned to the item. Or something like that. Would take some tweaking, but some people like the tinkering.
Another issue I had was having to quest in order to gain more powers on the weapon.<snip>
Maybe if questing were optional. Maybe if other methods abound, like research, divinations, or just spending some quality alone time with the weapon.
Actually, they do have that. There are three "rituals" that have to be performed in order to get all the powers a weapon has. There is nothing that says they have to be quests. There are combat rituals and there are vigil rituals. There are suggestions for Requiem rituals and purification rituals. I'm not sure you can blame the book if a DM drops in an item that requires going away from a time sensitive story so a player can gain access to more of his/her item's abilities.
I also had an issue with having to burn feats to get better with the weapon. Multiple feats. Heck, in 3.5, most people only got 7 feats. Using two or three to gain control of the weapon was almost punitive. It almost forced these weapons to be only useful for fighters.
The feats for performing the rituals are bonus feats. They don't cost any feat slots. There are other feats that build on the bonus feats and do things like allow more uses of legacy abilities from the items, but the basic feats for the three power levels are bonus.
Yeah, the book could use some tweaking, but I don't think it's unworkable as is. That said, it would be great if Paizo did something like it/with it for PRPG.
AJ
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For one, it seems that just about every benefit came with a loss somewhere else. Nobody wants to have to take -2 HP (permanently) so that their weapon can gain the Scent ability. Nobody wants to take -1 to their saving throws so that their weapon can get +1 to hit and damage. Etc.
I read on a forum somewhere (maybe WotC, maybe somewhere else) that some people just ignore the costs columns for the items. In my wife's campaign, she has done that, too, and we haven't noticed that the sword she built is overpowered.
Yeah a lot of people do it that way too, and if you stick to the power tiers they suggest it works out quite well, however there is a line in the book that unfortunately is easily missed and should have been the primary focus of the book that says in essence "the reason for the penalties is for getting unique abilities more powerful than ones you would get from a standard magic weapon." Part of the reason it gets missed is because they had a horrible chapter where they showed example weapons and only maybe one or two actually lived up to the precept of being worth the penalties given. In my games I've built legacy weapons and no player has ever complained about taking penalties to get the powers since the powers are always worth the cost.
I actually love that book but maybe it's because after I sold the actual copy I had I printed it out from a PDF and just didn't print out the chapter with examples and only use the rules to build my own weapons. In fact in the Rise of the Runelords board you can see my legacy weapon I built out of the repeating crossbow mentioned in Savah's Armory in PF#1
So does anyone know if the powers that be have discussed reworking this book or clumping in the rules for Legacy items in with one of the other future releases???
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I ran Legacy Weapons (with major tweaks) in my Pathfinder Beta campaign with a lot of success. I basically used the rules provided in Weapons of Legacy and removed the penalties and XP cost. I kept in the required deeds and gold cost and called it a day. After that I wrote up my own items that fit my campaign. I felt that the items were well balanced for their levels and the players really liked having something that grew with them.
I also tried to make sure the items weren't all weapons. Our Druid had a suit of Druidic hide that provided almost a partial-shapeshift (with minor advantages when activated), the Rogue/Ranger had an ectoplasmic longsword containing the spirit of a long-dead champion, and the archery Ranger had a magic bow that was designed to counter giants. I would have given the sorcerer a magic ring but the campaign ended before that time came about. It might seem odd giving everybody an item of this type, but they're adventurers, and frankly in my mind finding the occasional REALLY neat item with its own backstory and improvement requirements is better than finding another cache of four +1 items.
As for Paizo, as a reminder to everybody Paizo did publish Legacy Weapon rules back in some early 3.0 ed. Dragon Magazines. I don't remember the number, but like all the rules, they required XP expenditures (which I don't think we're going to see again in any Pathfinder RPG products).
We used the Weapons of Legacy book in my Age of Worms campaign. I allowed all the players to design their own legacy weapon that fit the campaign, and then I went over their design and allowed it, or had them tweak it some more. An I feel the rules as they were worked well.
Only two of my players took advantage of it, so they didn't over power the campaign at all, and they still seemed just fine after we converted to the Pathfinder Beta at the end of the campaign.
I like that the Weapons of Legacy makes you "pay a price" in various ways to gain or create the power of the legacy item.
I heartily recommend anyone wanting to play with this to read the game designer discussions and free examples done by The Game Mechanics.
Go to their web site.
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So I haven't taken a close look at this stuff yet; is there anything to facilitate a player who has the concept of, say, starting with his father's sword? It's unfortunate that in the standard rules, if a player has this as his background, he either has to have his sword upgraded at cost, or simply abandon it for the free magical sword he takes from some slain enemy.
I have a player now who has a weapon he is fond of and wants to grow as he does, and I'm wondering if this book will have something suitable I can use, or if I'll have to design something myself.
I think this is exactly the crux of the matter; how to implement a system (a subsystem, really) which has some sort of mechanical cost but without it being too steep so that it's a not even a real choice between "upgrading" your father's sword or ditching it to the first magical sword gained as loot. Personally, I think feats are not a good idea; XP cost might work (maybe 10% or so of what it cost in 3E?), but then the GP cost for any sort of ritual would have to be lower. Maybe it should a slightly altered version of how crafting now works, i.e. Craft/Spellcraft check and 25%-50% of the GP cost for enchantment, and the DC would go higher if you don't meet the prerequisites? I wish PF RPG had Action Points, because they could work for this purpose as well...
EDIT: It might not be too "steep" a price, if you only had to "burn" *one* feat ('Legacy Attunement', or something like that) and then your chosen item(s) would gain additional plusses and/or powers automatically as you advance in levels. In fact, I feel it would be perfectly balanced, and it might even be advantageous as you would get "guaranteed" upgrades to your gear at certain points (such as +1 per every 2 levels?).
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I heartily recommend anyone wanting to play with this to read the game designer discussions and free examples done by The Game Mechanics.
Go to their web site.
Thanks Dungeon Grrrl.
Always good to hear from you! Also, could you right click/properties the particular Web page. I am having trouble finding the examples on their site.
I've distributed a "legacy weapon" in last Monday's Pathfinder RPG game, but have only described it as a +4 defender type. Now, I quickly need a good longsword for a highly chaotic fighter. Any advise?
I heartily recommend anyone wanting to play with this to read the game designer discussions and free examples done by The Game Mechanics.
Go to their web site.
Thanks Dungeon Grrrl.
Always good to hear from you! Also, could you right click/properties the particular Web page. I am having trouble finding the examples on their site.
I've distributed a "legacy weapon" in last Monday's Pathfinder RPG game, but have only described it as a +4 defender type. Now, I quickly need a good longsword for a highly chaotic fighter. Any advise?
I've played a Battleblade Scion from Swords of our Fathers with a Ghost Bane style, it was alot of fun, but at the same time I didnt like the mechanic of going away from the fighter class to get weapon abilities. I felt the weapon should bolster the character as opposed to the character bolstering the weapon.
I've also recently dropped a weapon from Legendary Weapons (caladbolg if I remember the name correctly, but as a longsword instead of a shortsword) into my own game and had planned to simply ignore the penalties as they didnt really seem warranted. All other members of the group have nice weapons and set items, so a single un-penaltied weapon isnt all that unbalancing.
While I know it isn't exactly the same as a Legacy Weapon, I have always liked the Item Familiar feat in Unearthed Arcana. It allows you to bind yourself to a weapon (or armor or other) and as you gain power so does the weapon and it can give you extra skill points and spell slots and such. I have always liked the idea of keeping with one weapon and improving it over your career rather than switching out every time a new shinny toy comes along. With a little work and a few additional power selections I think the Item Familiar feat could compete or even outshine the Weapons of Legacy mechanics. I'm not sure if UA is OGL but if so Paizo could be all over that as a substitution mechanic.
I liked the concept of the book, but not the execution.
I thought the best way to handle 'quests' were to make them something that could happen during adventures. Not 'Trek to this temple while the green moon is in the house of xerxes' but 'Must deliver the death blow to an adult black dragon without having been healed during the fight'. Things that are reasonably likely to come up, or that can be done with forethought and planning.
I also thought only the 3rd level uber powers needed disads, the first and second level ones (if I am remembering how many rituals you had to do) were often underpowered compared to a +3 Flaming bow, while the 3rd ritual powers were not balanced against their limitations (Oh, yes I'll take a -5 permanent HP reduction to get +5d6 vs dragons from now on).
For something like a family heirloom, I used the Ancestral Relic feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds.
I also used Legacy Weapons, but the quest associated with it were only necessary if you wanted to remove the negatives that came from the item, and the weilder of the item did not get any xp for the quest, although any companions that went with him did.
Basically the xp was sacrificed to remove the negatives.
I would also tie in some kind of emnity with another group or individual to the item and it's wielder, although I was kinda random on how often that showed up.
So does anyone know if the powers that be have discussed reworking this book or clumping in the rules for Legacy items in with one of the other future releases???As it's not OGL, it's not a work that Paizo can touch unless Wizards licenses them to do so.
Don't hold your breath waiting for that day to happen though.
Reworking an existing book no, reinventing and presenting the idea yes. The concept is not part of WOTC's IP. Look at Earthdawn. Look at Lord of the RIngs Online. At some point we must remind outselves that TSR did not invent fantasy.
Actually the Powers That Be mused over the idea at one of the chats. J.J. said they'd have to find another name for them besides Legacy Weapons. He remarked that he personally found the idea to be really cool. That doesn't mean anything about it being necessarily in any book however.. But it is an indication that Powers That Be are aware of the interest.
If I recall it was freelancer Brian Cortijo got really excited about the idea. He started kicking around the idea of a an AP where such weapons were a central theme.
Maybe we should encourage Mr. Brian Cortijo to see if he can get a section in an upcoming book since he may have the passion for it!
I wrote the post above before looking at Dungeon Grrl's link.
I think she was referring to this specific book
It looks pretty neat!
My only wish is that the concept was not tied to a specific class. That any character could have a legnedary weapon.
Look at the writer's list there.
You have more than a few Paizo freelancer/editor/alumni who worked on this.