Okay, I just noticed this. The special shield, call Lion Shield could easily be abuse-able.
Lion's Shield
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 10th
Slot shield; Price 9,170 gp; Weight 15 lbs.
Description
This +2 heavy steel shield is fashioned to appear to be a roaring lion's head. Three times per day as a free action, the lion's head can be commanded to attack (independently of the shield wearer), biting with the wielder's base attack bonus (including multiple attacks, if the wielder has them) and dealing 2d6 points of damage. This attack is in addition to any actions performed by the wielder.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, summon nature's ally IV; Cost 4,670 gp
Anyone else see something missing in this statement? Because it is a free action, one could, if they wanted walk up to the BBEG and use this shiel 3 times in one turn sense it is a free action, and it is not limited to one per turn. Now I am not a very big fan of over killing the swift actions, I think just adding "once per round" language is all that is needed, but others might think this is fine as is though.
I would think the lion's attack is a standard action.
I would think the lion's attack is a standard action.
It says it VERY clearly it is a completely free action that can be done 3 times a day. I bolded the parts.
I would think the free action refers to commanding the lion to attack, and not the attack itself which, as Dave said, I would treat as a standard/full round action(if multiple attacks) for the lion.
Anyone else see something missing in this statement? Because it is a free action, one could, if they wanted walk up to the BBEG and use this shiel 3 times in one turn sense it is a free action, and it is not limited to one per turn. Now I am not a very big fan of over killing the swift actions, I think just adding "once per round" language is all that is needed, but others might think this is fine as is though.
This is another one of those little annoying things I wished they had fixed for Pathfinder. The easiest route for the DM to take is that with "free actions there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
I usually only allow as many different free actions as you want in a turn, but you can't use the same free action over and over.
Since my group is reasonable I don't have a problem. Those with power-gaming munchkin players might be in for some begging, pleading, whinning, etc.
This is another one of those little annoying things I wished they had fixed for Pathfinder. The easiest route for the DM to take is that with "free actions there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
I usually only allow as many different free actions as you want in a turn, but you can't use the same free action over and over.
Since my group is reasonable I don't have a problem. Those with power-gaming munchkin players might be in for some begging, pleading, whinning, etc.
Agreed.
"I'm quickdrawing my bow."OK.
"I'm quickdrawing my bow, my dagger and my starknife."
You have three hands?
The lion's attack is itself a standard or full-round action, IMHO. That hardly makes it useless.
It's not overpowered. Really, it's not.
The lion's shield uses your BAB, but not your strength, so accuracy is an issue.
The damage is a flat 2d6. No strength bonus here, either.
So our 16th level Lion's Shield weilder can three times per day maybe deal an extra 8-48 damage (average 28). That's assuming all four attacks hit, including the last two made at a whopping +6 and +1. Heck, Even the first two attack bonuses don't look too good, considering by this level AC's are usually in the low thirties.
I'm guessing only the first bite has any real chance of connecting, and an average of 7 extra damage at this level isn't an issue. Even if all three uses are dropped at once, 21 damage is pretty small potatoes, too.
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It's not overpowered. Really, it's not.
The lion's shield uses your BAB, but not your strength, so accuracy is an issue.
The damage is a flat 2d6. No strength bonus here, either.
So our 16th level Lion's Shield weilder can three times per day maybe deal an extra 8-48 damage (average 28). That's assuming all four attacks hit, including the last two made at a whopping +6 and +1. Heck, Even the first two attack bonuses don't look to good, considering by this level AC's are usually in the low thirties.
I'm guessing only the first bite has any real chance of connecting, and an average of 7 extra damage at this level isn't an issue. Even if all three uses are dropped at once, 21 damage is pretty small potatoes, too.
Actually Vigil, they use your full attack bonus. That means all of them would be at your level.
Actually Vigil, they use your full attack bonus. That means all of them would be at your level.
Not So!
... biting with the wielder's base attack bonus (including multiple attacks, if the wielder has them) and dealing 2d6 points of damage.
So a 16th level fighter who uses a lion's shield makes attacks at +16/+11/+6/+1 for 2d6 damage each. No Strength bonus to attacks or damage. And at 16th level, the average AC is 29 (CR+13), meaning the lion's shield is unlikely to hit anything but mooks with anything but the first attack.
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Actually Vigil, they use your full attack bonus. That means all of them would be at your level.Not So!
... biting with the wielder's base attack bonus (including multiple attacks, if the wielder has them) and dealing 2d6 points of damage.So a 16th level fighter who uses a lion's shield makes attacks at +16/+11/+6/+1 for 2d6 damage each. No Strength bonus to attacks or damage. And at 16th level, the average AC is 29 (CR+13), meaning the lion's shield is unlikely to hit anything but mooks with anything but the first attack.
Well, spoon me dead...
If thats the case I have no clue how the OP thinks this is at all powerful...
Actually Vigil, they use your full attack bonus. That means all of them would be at your level.Not So!
... biting with the wielder's base attack bonus (including multiple attacks, if the wielder has them) and dealing 2d6 points of damage.So a 16th level fighter who uses a lion's shield makes attacks at +16/+11/+6/+1 for 2d6 damage each. No Strength bonus to attacks or damage. And at 16th level, the average AC is 29 (CR+13), meaning the lion's shield is unlikely to hit anything but mooks with anything but the first attack.Well, spoon me dead...
If thats the case I have no clue how the OP thinks this is at all powerful...
Because dispite everyone saying this is a standard action, and every wording in the item states it is a completely free extra attack with out any normal minuses, the shield could be used in 1 round to get 3 extra attacks for free. At first this looked really deadly, but now I notice that this does hint at that you go by base attack, and you do not get any strength bonus ether on to hit or damage, so the effect is limited.
So some good points have been made.
Three times per day as a free action, the lion's head can be commanded to attack (independently of the shield wearer), biting with the wielder's base attack bonus (including multiple attacks, if the wielder has them) and dealing 2d6 points of damage.
Bolded the part you may not have fully considered. The command is a free action, as opposed to the standard action normally used to activate an item. When so activated, the lion's head performs an attack or full-round attack action using the wearer's base attack bonus. Yes, you can give this command several times in a round; doesn't matter, though, because the head has independently expended its actions for the turn and can't attack again no matter how many times you demand it.
Think of it like an animal companion and the wording makes perfect sense.
Three times per day as a free action, the lion's head can be commanded to attack (independently of the shield wearer), biting with the wielder's base attack bonus (including multiple attacks, if the wielder has them) and dealing 2d6 points of damage.Bolded the part you may not have fully considered. The command is a free action, as opposed to the standard action normally used to activate an item. When so activated, the lion's head performs an attack or full-round attack action using the wearer's base attack bonus. Yes, you can give this command several times in a round; doesn't matter, though, because the head has independently expended its actions for the turn and can't attack again no matter how many times you demand it.
Think of it like an animal companion and the wording makes perfect sense.
It is a free action, which is great, but where is the language where you can only perform it once?
I just don't see any, so I don't see any reason that one could not just use all three uses in the first round.
What's the big deal with getting a few d6 extra (and easy-to-miss-with) damage per day? How is it easily abusable? Why does it need an errata?
What's the big deal with getting a few d6 extra (and easy-to-miss-with) damage per day? How is it easily abusable? Why does it need an errata?
I agree it is not as bad as it looked originally, but I see nothing in the item's langauge to just run up to a target in a charge and get 3 extra attacks, plus bonus attacks from base attack bonus, in 1 round.
No, I don't think it needs an errata, but what if they add other effects to it, like increasing its strength, enhancement to it like a weapon etc. and they use two.
Now this is completely modifiable by item rules to add additional attacks, only 2 more possible though.
It just seems like this might be abused.
It is a free action, which is great, but where is the language where you can only perform it once?
I just don't see any, so I don't see any reason that one could not just use all three uses in the first round.
Again: Think of it like an animal companion. Your free action is issuing the command. The shield animates and performs a full attack action; it cannot act again until the following round, even if you command it to do so with another free action.
Think of it like an animal companion...
I agree those above, the FREE ACTION is COMMANDING IT... an ATTACK(melee, ranged, unarmed) is a STANDARD ACTION or FULL ROUND.(PFCORE pg. 183) The attack from the shield is simply not penalizing the wearers number of actions per round.
AND as someone else stated, the book (under FREE ACTIONS pg.188) basically allows the DM to limit your FREE ACTIONS by saying, "STOP, YOUR DONE, 6 SECONDS IS UP, NEXT PLAYER."
This +2 heavy steel shield is fashioned to appear to be a roaring lion's head. Three times per day as a free action, the lion's head can be commanded to attack (independently of the shield wearer), biting with the wielder's base attack bonus (including multiple attacks, if the wielder has them) and dealing 2d6 points of damage. This attack is in addition to any actions performed by the wielder.
I highlighted it a little differently from you. It's not very clearly worded but the command is a free action, then the shield makes a series of attacks as a standard/ full action. You can command it 10 times as a free action but the shield can only take a standard or a full action to attack.
If you want to get all rules lawyerly feel free, I'm sick and tired of people who deliberately twist things to find things that are "Broken".
Now this is completely modifiable by item rules to add additional attacks, only 2 more possible though.
It just seems like this might be abused.
Creating non-standard magic items is inherently abusable and all falls into the realm of GMs judgment.
See all references to XXXX of true strike.
OK I have been set at ease.
Thanks
[grammar jerk]
"Lion Shield needs an Erratum"
[/grammar jerk]
See all references to XXXX of true strike.
Every single one of which was based on one or more complete misunderstandings of game mechanics, including not realizing that True Strike has one charge which is expended by attacking (so a "persistent" item would have to be removed and then put back on to gain the effect again) and in slightly less cheesy interpretations, allowing a quickened spell to be cast more than once per round.
It's honestly kind of funny that True Strike items are held up as the epitome of what's wrong with allowing high customization, when the very best legal version works on one attack per round (and costs 396k gold, and doesn't work when silenced).
Also: Yes, erratum. :)
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If that 16th level character is a sword and board two weapon fighting ranger/fighter/rogue and has enchanted the lion's shield to be a +3 Flaming weapon and is flanking against their favored enemy...
It does seem a bit powerful regardless of if you can attack with it as part of your full round attacks or as a literal free action...
Simply changing the wording from free action to swift action fixes the issue and makes it work as intended.
Simply changing the wording from free action to swift action fixes the issue and makes it work as intended.The current wording fixes the issue, changing it to a swift action unduly limits the wielder as it percludes the use of OTHER swift actions.
+1
I have gotten a sheer hatred for swift actions for anything but magic items; now that they are in class and feat features, I know hate them all the time.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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others might think this is fine as is though.
It is fine as needed, especially since it has been that way for what? 10 years?
Because dispite everyone saying this is a standard action
You misunderstand them.
You command the Lion's Shield to attack as a free action. It does so by using it's standard/fullround action to attack. If you command again it will reply "already did so boss."
others might think this is fine as is though.It is fine as needed, especially since it has been that way for what? 10 years?
Because dispite everyone saying this is a standard actionYou misunderstand them.
You command the Lion's Shield to attack as a free action. It does so by using it's standard/fullround action to attack. If you command again it will reply "already did so boss."
Yes.... I got it.
Again, bringing up old threads, but this one is directly related.
If you're a two-weapon fighter, with all the shield feats in the world, this indicates that you get 7 attacks per round while wielding a shield. 8 if hasted.
Does this mean you get 8 more attacks with the Lion's shield?
The wording of this item is very peculiar.
Related but a little OT:
The Shield Master feat states that you don't take any penalties to your attacks with your shield due to wielding a weapon in your primary hand. Does this include the -2 for attacks with your offhand shield, after improved twf and greater twf? This is also somewhat unclear to me.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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two-weapon fighter ... you get 7 attacks per round while wielding a shield. 8 if hasted.
Does this mean you get 8 more attacks with the Lion's shield?
The Shield Master feat states that you don't take any penalties to your attacks with your shield due to wielding a weapon in your primary hand. Does this include the -2 for attacks with your offhand shield, after improved twf and greater twf?
No, you would just get the BAB granted ones at your BAB (no other bonuses not specified.)
No, you take those penalties. If written the you you paraphrase, it likely refers to the penalties of using a one handed weapon. Can you quote the PRD text?
Lion's Shield
Aura moderate conjuration; Cl 10th
Slot shield; Price 9,170 gp; Weight 15 lbs.
Description
This +2 heavy steel shield is fashioned to appear to be a roaring lion’s
head. Three times per day as a free action, the lion’s head can be
commanded to attack (independently of the shield wearer), biting
with the wielder’s base attack bonus (including multiple attacks, if
the wielder has them) and dealing 2d6 points of damage. This attack
is in addition to any actions performed by the wielder.
I guess it becomes more obvious if you remove the parentheses.
biting with the wielder’s base attack bonus and dealing 2d6 points of damage.
As for shield master:
Shield Master (Combat)Your mastery of the shield allows you to fight with it
without hindrance.Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield
Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, base
attack bonus +11.Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls
made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon.
Add your shield’s shield bonus to attacks and damage rolls
made with the shield as if it was an enhancement bonus.
Emphasis my own.
I think this would help explain how the lions shield works:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/10314/saturday-night-live-coldcock
See, it is as if taking a sip is a free action, then the bottle gets to make an attack.
But you are not the one attacking with your shield, you are giving the shield a command, and IT is coldcocking someone for you.
I'm pretty sure I understand the intent. I'm just pointing out the ambiguity of the phrase in parentheses. It is merely insinuating it gets multiple attacks only whenever you do (e.g. full round attack). It can be taken incorrectly to state that it'll grant you a bonus attack for each of your bonus attacks.