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I have had a question come up that I would love to hear an "official" answer for. One of my players is a Mystic Theurge (cleric/sorcerer). He had a question regarding the Spells per Day of the Theurge and how they effect the sorcerer side; specifically in regards to bloodlines.
I understand that the MT class would not grant any of the bloodline feats/powers, but does it allow the character to gain the bloodline bonus spells? His reasoning is that they are spells he would have gained as a sorcerer, and since the prestige class specifically states that only spells are gained from other casting classes, I think this seems to fit the bill.
I think it would.
Back during the Alpha/Beta playtest, I wondered if a wizard5/cleric5/MST10 got the domain and school powers of a level 15 wizard and a level Cleric. I never really got an answer, so I may be a liitle biased...
Though I can't seem to find it in the books, I strongly believe they would. Clerics/Druids/Wizards all gain their domain/specialist spell slot when going prestige, so the sorcerer should get her bonus spells known.
I haven't heard of an official ruling on it, but I'd agree that any caster should get any spells that go with their bloodline/specialist school/domains, and nothing else.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!=P
This would be a good on for a FAQ.
Greg Kilberger wrote: I have had a question come up that I would love to hear an "official" answer for. One of my players is a Mystic Theurge (cleric/sorcerer). He had a question regarding the Spells per Day of the Theurge and how they effect the sorcerer side; specifically in regards to bloodlines.
I understand that the MT class would not grant any of the bloodline feats/powers, but does it allow the character to gain the bloodline bonus spells? His reasoning is that they are spells he would have gained as a sorcerer, and since the prestige class specifically states that only spells are gained from other casting classes, I think this seems to fit the bill.
The class description states that you gain spells in the spellcaster
ad cleric as if you have gone up a level, BUT No other benefits,
ie no bonus spells.
Based off of reading the two abilities (i.e. bloodlines, and domains)
I'm going to say no.
Here's why PFRPG wrote: At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell. See here you can clearly see that gaining new spells for your bloodline is based on hitting certain sorcerer levels. Would you gain these spells if you had levels of fighter?
PFRPG wrote: A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, Whereas here in the clerics description domain spells are granted merely by gaining access to that spell level and not dependant on cleric level at all.
So when you switch to Mystic Theurge you will gain domain spells as you gain access to new spell levels, however you won't gain new bloodline spells because you are not gaining sorcerer levels.
lastknightleft wrote: So when you switch to Mystic Theurge you will gain domain spells as you gain access to new spell levels, however you won't gain new bloodline spells because you are not gaining sorcerer levels. I see the point you're trying to make and based on the wording I submit that the issue is certainly not clear, but I disagree with your logic.
lastknightleft wrote: Would you gain these spells if you had levels of fighter? No, but you wouldn't gain access to additional cleric domain spells or spell slots by taking levels in fighter or any other class for that matter either. For example, a 10th level oracle gains access to 5th level spells and casts divine spells like a cleric, but this does not mean that an oracle who also has levels in cleric automatically gains access to 5th level domain slots and spells simply because he can cast spells of that level now. Despite the ambiguous phrasing, in my opinion both bloodline and domain spells are equally and similarly dependent on gaining access to spells of a particular level in respect to levels of Mystic Theurge.
PFRPG wrote: This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. Since the cleric progression table clearly lists domain spell slots as "spells per day", logically you would gain access to those when you level in Mystic Theurge. By extension, since bloodline spells are basically the equivalent of domain spells for sorcerers, you should receive those as well. This seems reasonable to me and would be my house ruling, but as I stated it is only my opinion. I would also suggest that until there's an official ruling, anyone who's going to house rule this should say that you receive both or neither. Otherwise it just seems inconsistent.
Zimmy wrote: Since the cleric progression table clearly lists domain spell slots as "spells per day", logically you would gain access to those when you level in Mystic Theurge. And since the sorcerer progression table clearly does not include bloodline bonus spells as "spells known", logically you would not gain access to those when you level in Mystic Theurge.
Greg Kilberger wrote: I have had a question come up that I would love to hear an "official" answer for. One of my players is a Mystic Theurge (cleric/sorcerer). He had a question regarding the Spells per Day of the Theurge and how they effect the sorcerer side; specifically in regards to bloodlines.
I understand that the MT class would not grant any of the bloodline feats/powers, but does it allow the character to gain the bloodline bonus spells? His reasoning is that they are spells he would have gained as a sorcerer, and since the prestige class specifically states that only spells are gained from other casting classes, I think this seems to fit the bill.
He's absolutely and utterly wrong. The devs did answer. In short, unless the prestige class says different. (and there is exactly ONE... and only ONE prestige class from Paizo that does.) the only things your sorcerer will advance in his MT levels are the caster level, spells known, and spells per day tables. That's it... And in case you haven't figured out what that one PrC is.... it's Dragon Disciple. reread it and see my answer demonstrated in that class description.
Quantum Steve wrote: And since the sorcerer progression table clearly does not include bloodline bonus spells as "spells known", logically you would not gain access to those when you level in Mystic Theurge. Logically only if you prefer inconsistency. However, until there's an official ruling, it is subject to interpretation so you're certainly welcome to your opinion as am I.
LazarX wrote: He's absolutely and utterly wrong. The devs did answer. In short, unless the prestige class says different. (and there is exactly ONE... and only ONE prestige class from Paizo that does.) the only things your sorcerer will advance in his MT levels are the caster level, spells known, and spells per day tables. That's it... And in case you haven't figured out what that one PrC is.... it's Dragon Disciple. reread it and see my answer demonstrated in that class description. If this is the case, I would certainly be interested in reading the thread. Can you provide a link?
Unholy thread necromancy!
Zimmy wrote: LazarX wrote: He's absolutely and utterly wrong. The devs did answer. In short, unless the prestige class says different. (and there is exactly ONE... and only ONE prestige class from Paizo that does.) the only things your sorcerer will advance in his MT levels are the caster level, spells known, and spells per day tables. That's it... And in case you haven't figured out what that one PrC is.... it's Dragon Disciple. reread it and see my answer demonstrated in that class description. If this is the case, I would certainly be interested in reading the thread. Can you provide a link? I assume you're referring to the FAQ
This, of course, is the support for my very logical argument up thread.
I would say no. It a class abilty that you gave up for the MT presstiege class.
Quantum Steve wrote: I assume you're referring to the FAQ
This, of course, is the support for my very logical argument up thread.
While it is possible that clarification could be used to justify sorcerers not receiving bonus bloodline spells which is not certain, I fail to see any logic in your argument what so ever when it is completely invalidated by the inconsistent fact that clerics are allowed to receive their domain spells. However, you cannot be held responsible for the inconsistency of the authors, only for the logic of your arguments.
Zimmy wrote: Quantum Steve wrote: I assume you're referring to the FAQ
This, of course, is the support for my very logical argument up thread.
While it is possible that clarification could be used to justify sorcerers not receiving bonus bloodline spells which is not certain, I fail to see any logic in your argument what so ever when it is completely invalidated by the inconsistent fact that clerics are allowed to receive their domain spells. However, you cannot be held responsible for the inconsistency of the authors, only for the logic of your arguments. Sigh.
The ONLY things you get (according to the FAQ) are: Spells per day, Spells Known (for spontaneous casters), and caster levels.
Clerics get domain spells because their domain spells are included in their "Spells per Day" table. Wizards do not get School spells Sorcerers do not get bloodline spells because their bloodline spells are not in their "Spells known" table.
How much simpler can it get?
Quantum Steve wrote: Sigh.
The ONLY things you get (according to the FAQ) are: Spells per day, Spells Known (for spontaneous casters), and caster levels.
Clerics get domain spells because their domain spells are included in their "Spells per Day" table. Wizards do not get School spells Sorcerers do not get bloodline spells because their bloodline spells are not in their "Spells known" table.
How much simpler can it get?
I agree, sigh.
Although I stated it as fact, in truth nowhere in the rules or FAQ does it actually indicate that clerics receive domain spells for levels in Mystic Theurge. It is a reasonable assumption based on the progression table, but it is only an opinion and not supported officially. So, despite the fact that nowhere in the rules does it state either is allowed, you choose to argue that one is allowable, but not the other? Nonsensical as far as I'm concerned since domains and bloodlines are simply variations on similar themes. It makes no sense to allow one and not the other.
And again:
PFRPG wrote: This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. If your so determined to argue your point based strictly on the letter of what is stated, then domain spells should most definitely not be allowed since they are not mentioned as any kind of exception. An exception which would be completely ridiculous and illogical even if it were specifically included. What it comes down to is that until there is a more definitive ruling aside from what is currently in the FAQ which does not even discuss bloodline or domain spells at all,
PFRPG wrote: He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. is and will be subject to interpretation.
So you tell me. How much simpler can it get?
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Quantum Steve wrote: Sigh.
The ONLY things you get (according to the FAQ) are: Spells per day, Spells Known (for spontaneous casters), and caster levels.
Clerics get domain spells because their domain spells are included in their "Spells per Day" table. Wizards do not get School spells Sorcerers do not get bloodline spells because their bloodline spells are not in their "Spells known" table.
How much simpler can it get?
Although, there is an entry in the FAQ for the APG which is slightly more relevant and unfortunately does support your argument.
FAQ
This does make it somewhat more official in my mind, but I still maintain that it is ridiculous and illogical. In my opinion, either both should be received or neither. It is an annoying inconsistency. After all, aren't domain spells as much of a class feature as bonus bloodline and patron spells?
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Actually, I think that the FAQ entry you talk about supports the opposite argument. A cleric doesn't receive domain spells for levels in a prestige class just as a witch doesn't receive patron spells, an oracle mystery spells and a sorcerer bloodline spells.
It's not official, but here's a 3rd party thread that seem to support this thesis.
Bardess wrote: Actually, I think that the FAQ entry you talk about supports the opposite argument. A cleric doesn't receive domain spells for levels in a prestige class just as a witch doesn't receive patron spells, an oracle mystery spells and a sorcerer bloodline spells. Possibly. The only problem is that while a witch does prepare spells like a cleric, their bonus patron spells are not listed on the witch progression table as additional spells per day as domain spells are for clerics. This is the one single point which argues for clerics potentially receiving their bonus spells while apparently nobody else does, but it is seriously inconsistent if so.
If you read the text for the individual classes, it becomes clearer.
Cleric wrote: A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Wizard wrote: In addition, specialist wizards receive an additional spell slot of each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up. Sorcerer wrote: At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 3-15 Wizard wrote: Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. Domain slots and specialist slots are both dependent on casting, not on class level. Bloodline spells know and the free spells in a Wizards book are dependent on class level.
In this way, Domain slots are not very like Bloodline Spells, but more like Specialist slots. They are both bonus spell slots the are a function of casting.
Bloodline Spells are more like bonus spells in a spellbook, both are a function of class level, hence why neither Sorcerers nor Wizards get them.
Greg Kilberger wrote: I have had a question come up that I would love to hear an "official" answer for. One of my players is a Mystic Theurge (cleric/sorcerer). He had a question regarding the Spells per Day of the Theurge and how they effect the sorcerer side; specifically in regards to bloodlines.
I understand that the MT class would not grant any of the bloodline feats/powers, but does it allow the character to gain the bloodline bonus spells? His reasoning is that they are spells he would have gained as a sorcerer, and since the prestige class specifically states that only spells are gained from other casting classes, I think this seems to fit the bill.
No, you do not get the bonus spells. Quantum Steve and others have already provided the reasons and explanations for it, so I don't need to get into it :-)
Am I think only one that sees things much simpler?
All you have to do is copy past the part about 'spells' from the relevant class and paste it under the Mystic Theurge.
The spell part of the wizard does not mention additional spells in his spell book, therefore, he doesn't get them.
The spell part of the sorcerer does not mention bloodline spell, therefore, she doesn't get them.
The spell part of the cleric does not mention domain spells, therefore he doesn't get them.
Quite sure you can continue if desired.
The only thing that is not explicitly mention is the caster level though if you have to put it under a class ability, it would be spell without a question.
Quantum Steve wrote: Domain slots and specialist slots are both dependent on casting, not on class level. Bloodline spells know and the free spells in a Wizards book are dependent on class level.
In this way, Domain slots are not very like Bloodline Spells, but more like Specialist slots. They are both bonus spell slots the are a function of casting.
Bloodline Spells are more like bonus spells in a spellbook, both are a function of class level, hence why neither Sorcerers nor Wizards get them.
Yes, I understand the logic and it still seems as flawed as the first time it was posted. We could debate this point all day, but the fact still remains that all of the arguments as to why clerics do and nobody else does are obscure reasoning which can only be defended by semantics. You have two class features which are essentially the same thing mechanically for all practical purposes, but yet one is treated as some kind of rare nonsensical exception that can only be supported by a turn of phrase which might or might not have even been thought of at the time of writing. It's easy to use minor differences in how two similar things are worded after the fact as a convenient explanation, but whether this is what was originally intended I suppose we'll never know.
PFRPG wrote: He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. LOL I suppose we'll simply have to start redefining the word "benefits" to allow for these types of unfathomable exceptions.
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Zimmy wrote: We could debate this point all day, but the fact still remains that all of the arguments as to why clerics do and nobody else does are obscure reasoning which can only be defended by semantics. Because clerics get their spells from their deities, who want their followers to promote their portfolios through their domains; the bonus prepared spells are specified in the Domains class feature (note domain powers are gained only with actual cleric levels). Also, specialist wizards gain the bonus prepared spells through the Arcane School class feature (again, the school powers are gained only with actual wizard levels).
Sorcerers, on the other hand, list the bloodline spells as separate class features on Table 3-14 (see Core Rulebook, pg. 72), just as oracles list mystery spells on Table 2-5 in the Advanced Players Guide (pg. 44) and witches' patron spells have been specifically addressed by the developers. This isn't semantics; this is following the rules as written. If it's listed on the class progression table, then you do not gain it past your actual levels in that class when you multiclass or prestige class, unless specifically stated otherwise.
Ambrus wrote: Unholy thread necromancy! I know, right? I think there's some sort of conspiracy.
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