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Allip
Stronger Than 3.5: Allips have 4 more hp than their 3.5 counterparts, as well as more Intimidate and better hearing and searching capabilities. Their Fortitude save has gone up by +3 as well. As with all undead, allips have the medium BAB progression now, so they have +1 BAB.
Weaker Than 3.5: The save DC for their babble effect has dropped by 1, as has their AC, both the result of 2 fewer points of Charisma. Their touch of insanity ability now only deals Wisdom damage rather than Wisdom drain, except on a critical hit (which still only deals 1 point of drain).
Different Than 3.5: Babbling is no longer described as a hypnotism-like effect, receiving instead a self-contained description about fascination, but it’s not clear if there’s actually any difference. Allips are not known for giving their victims instructions, so the suggestion option of hypnotism seems irrelevant. There’s no sign that being in combat might give a +2 bonus to the save, as the hypostism spell implies, but neither does a solitary creature outside combat receive a penalty – in neither case, however, was it ever completely clear that such considerations applied to 3.5 allips either, based on the wording of the ability. As with all undead, allips have a d8 Hit Die but add their Charisma bonus to their hit points with each die (instead of their Constitution).
Dragonne
Stronger Than 3.5: Dragonnes have an extra +1 to their natural armor over the 3.5 version, and have picked up both Power Attack and Flyby Attack. Their claw attacks are made at the same bonus as their bite attack (this appears to be a general change to the way natural attacks work*), and receive their full Strength bonus (also apparently a general rules change*). The save DC against their roar has gone up by +2.
Weaker Than 3.5: Nothing.
Different Than 3.5: Their roar ability is no longer exhausts opponents within 30 ft who fail their saves; instead, they are deafened. The save is now a Fort save instead of a Will save.
Hag, Annis
Stronger Than 3.5: Annis hags have 21 more hp than their 3.5 counterparts, thanks to an improved Hit Die and 4 extra points of Constitution. The same boost has increased their Fort save by 2. Their bite attack is at the same bonus as their claw attacks, and receives their full Strength bonus. They have gained the Intimidating Prowess feat, vastly improving their Intimidate modifier; they also have increased Diplomacy, Stealth and Perception bonuses.
Weaker Than 3.5: Annis hags have 2 points less Spell Resistance and have lost their rake attacks. The caster level for their spell-like abilities has dropped by 1. Their Bluff bonus has likewise dropped by 1.
Different Than 3.5: Nothing.
Lammasu
Stronger Than 3.5: Lammasus have two more HD than their 3.5 equivalent, leading to a bunch of other bonuses: +26 hp, +2 BAB, +2 Fort, +1 Ref, and +1 Will, plus two more feats, Improved Initiative and Power Attack. The Fort save and hp total are both enhanced by +2 Constitution, and of course the Improved Initiative gives the usual +4 init as well. Lammasus’ caster levels for their spell-like abilities have improved by +2. They have also received +3 damage on their rake attack. They can also hear better and are far more diplomatic.
Weaker Than 3.5: Lammasus no longer receive domains as part of their innate “cleric” casting, giving them 1 less spell at each level. They have lost 1 point of bonus off their Knowledge (arcana) and Sense Motive modifiers.
Different Than 3.5: Nothing.
Nixie
Stronger Than 3.5: Nixies have an additional Hit Die and +2 Constitution, giving them 6 more hp, +1 BAB and +1 to all their saves. Their wild empathy check is also higher by 1. The caster level for charm person is now the same as for water breathing, 12th. Bluff, Escape Artist, Perform (sing) and Swim have all improved, as have the nixies’ Stealth abilities (except in the water, which remains the same). It also appears that fey may have 8+Intelligence modifier skill points per Hit Die, but that is unclear (the listed nixie's skills don't seem to come out right mathematically either way).
Weaker Than 3.5: Nixies’ Spell Resistance has dropped by 4 points. They have lost Alertness and Dodge (and Weapon Finesse is no longer a bonus feat). They have lost 2 points of bonus on their senses and their Handle Animal.
Different Than 3.5: Nothing.
Shadow Mastiff
Stronger Than 3.5: As with all outsiders, shadow mastiffs have d10s for Hit Dice instead of d8s; in addition, shadow mastiffs also have 2 additional Hit Dice relative to their 3.5 versions. The extra Hit Dice grant them +2 BAB and a total of 21 more hit points. They have +2 Strength and +2 Dexterity, and the combination of additional Hit Dice and the ability score improvements has given them +1 Fort and +2 Ref. They also have +2 natural armor, which combines with their Dexterity to give them a total of +3 AC. They have picked up the Iron Will and Power Attack feats, and all of their skill bonuses have improved. The save DC against their bay has gone up by +3.
Weaker Than 3.5: Outsiders apparently no longer have good Will saves; at the very least, shadow mastiffs do not (even with Iron Will, their Will save has not improved). They also have only 6+Intelligence modifier skill points per Hit Die, and have lost the Dodge feat.
Different Than 3.5: The wording on shadow blend has changed somewhat to incorporate the clarified illumination rules, but the end result appears to be the same.
* Jason has said in another thread that this is not true for all attacks, but that the difference between primary and secondary attacks is not handled in the same way as in 3.5 – apparently monsters can have multiple primary attacks now, as well as multiple secondary attacks.
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Realized I forgot to do a naga comparison...
Naga, Water
Stronger Than 3.5: Water nagas have a huge +10 boost to their Dexterity. This gives them +5 initiative, +5 AC and +5 to their Ref saves. They also have 1 extra Hit Die and +2 Constitution, giving them +17 hp and +1 to their Will and Fort saves, as well as +1 to their BAB. Water nagas have +1 Charisma, enough to bump up their modifier, which increases the save DC for all their sorcerer spells by 1. They have gained Skill Focus (Stealth), and swapped Alertness for Skill Focus (Perception), partially contributing to a massive increase in their Perception bonus. They have also gained in all their other skills, including completely new abilities in Bluff, Knowledge (local) and Stealth. They can cast all the cantrips they wish.
Weaker Than 3.5: They have 1 fewer 3rd level spell per day (though that appears to be an error in the SRD).
Different Than 3.5: Water naga poison is in the new format, dealing 1 point of Constitution damage per round for up to 10 rounds, with a save allowed each time the damage is dealt. The save DC has increased by +2, but a single save ends the damage (rather than requiring two separate saves to avoid damage entirely).
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I don't think I'm going to like PathFinder undead very much. D8's + cha isn't usually that impresive, especially for guard and soldier undead. It is probably only if there is a positive mod to cha, but still. They just seem to fragile.
Perhaps they're getting a little boost elsewhere? but you can always House-rule it back...
To me, it works nice for intelligent undead.
I don't think I'm going to like PathFinder undead very much. D8's + cha isn't usually that impresive, especially for guard and soldier undead. It is probably only if there is a positive mod to cha, but still. They just seem to fragile.
I'm under the impression that overall, undead will have a boost in HP and/or damage reductions in addition. If an undead creature has +2 CHA, that almost replicates d12 hit dice and a higher bonus will net them more.
Not to mention that several undead may have had a boost in hit dice (such as skeletons & zombies maybe) to offset any loss. Several monsters in the bonus bestiary did.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that seems like a lot of tinkering to me. I'd rather see the worst offenders fixed (e.g. removing greater teleport at will from outsiders, which I hate) instead of tinkering with every monster a little bit.
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It just doesn't seem (I could be wrong and I'm still waiting for final), that undead have taken a big hit. I can't see an undead controlling necromancer being worth it. It was already very difficult and expensive to do somewhat well but it doesn't seem worth it. (If creating undead is free, maybe).
For a dm, undead don't seem all that threatening. Again I could be wrong. But it seems they are turning into the type of monster that has one cool power and dies in round 2. Except they might not have that cool one power.
For a dm, undead don't seem all that threatening. Again I could be wrong. But it seems they are turning into the type of monster that has one cool power and dies in round 2.
Except the lich sorcerer with the high Cha, who now has like double the hp of his predecessor... Pretty much all of the undead are going to end up with higher Fort saves, too, which definitely helps against things like disintegrate (which used to be a nearly infallible undead-killer).
I don't think I'm going to like PathFinder undead very much. D8's + cha isn't usually that impresive, especially for guard and soldier undead. It is probably only if there is a positive mod to cha, but still. They just seem to fragile.
Frankly, d12 with no Con bonus possible wasn't that impressive either.
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Allip
Weaker Than 3.5: Their touch of insanity ability now only deals Wisdom damage rather than Wisdom drain, except on a critical hit (which still only deals 1 point of drain).Different Than 3.5: Babbling is no longer described as a hypnotism-like effect, receiving instead a self-contained description about fascination, but it’s not clear if there’s actually any difference. Allips are not known for giving their victims instructions, so the suggestion option of hypnotism seems irrelevant.
Having recently used an allip in a published scenario, I was surprised by the power of their attack. I'm willing to believe drain was a typo.
I changed the hypnotism, as it made no sense, and made it a stunning effect, forcing the targets to clutch their heads.
Frankly, d12 with no Con bonus possible wasn't that impressive either.
And the +1/2 BAB seems to have been replaced with +3/4...
I fail to see how increasing their total hit points, their Fort saves, AND their attack bonuses makes them more fragile.
Correction above. :)
Creative Director
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As a general rule, undead are tougher in PFRPG than they were in 3.5, particularly the higher CR they get.
A 3.5 undead has an average of 6.5 hp per HD.
A PFRPG undead has an average of 4.5 hp per HD, but can gain bonuses per HD. Give an undead a CHA of only 14, and his average HP per HD is back up to 6.5. Give him a Cha of 12 and the Toughness feat and you're ALSO at 6.5 hp/HD.
For most undead, you can probably expect to see Charisma scores of 14 or higher as a result; mindless undead will generally have around 10 or 11 Cha (similar to how many mindless vermin have 10 or 11 Cha scores), but will have pretty good DR for their level (or the aforementioned Toughness feat). This does mean zombies and skeletons, essentially, are going to be a little less tough, but if that means you can throw a lot more at a low level party to get in the Horde of Undead kicks, that's good! It DOES mean that Charisma is not a dump stat for undead... I'd generally say that Wisdom's probably a better dump stat for them, since they're immune to mind-affecting effects anyway.
Let's look at 5 sample undead from the MM, and look at the difference in average hp in 3.5 and what they would be in PFRPG (assuming no other changes).
<b>Ghast</b>
3.5: 29 hp
PFRPG: 34 hp
<b>Mummy</b>
3.5: 55 hp
PFRPG: 60 hp
<b>Nightcrawler</b>
3.5: 212 hp
PFRPG: 212 hp
<b>Dread Wraith</b>
3.5: 104 hp
PFRPG: 184 hp
Certainly other undead do take a hit to their hp, but that's nothing that bumping up their charisma 2 or 4 points won't fix.
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Creative Director
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I've only recently come back to D&D, so a lot of the finer mechanics of 3.5 still escape me. I was wondering if in monster design some sort of base array of Primary Statistics (STR, DEX, CON, WIS, INT, CHA) was used as a starting point and then modified with racial and size modifiers or if the Primary Statistics were just chosen with what 'feels right'. If there is an base array of Primary Statistics, what values are used in Pathfinder?
Generally, we use the monster's HD and its Ability Scores as "sliders" to make a monster fit its CR nicely. If you have a monster that should be CR 10, for example, you can give it 10 HD and then adjust its Constitution so that it has about the right amount of hp, but that also affects its Fort save and the save DCs for many special attacks, and if those scores end up too high, you add a few HD and lower Con a few to bring the hp back to where they should be for CR 10 until the other Con-related scores fall in line as well. Repeat with all other ability scores.
In the end, that means that monsters more or less have their ability scores assigned without bothering to work up the modifiers. Once a monster's done, it's assumed to be an average monster with all 10s and 11s for its ability scores, so at that point you can reverse engineer out what its ability score modifiers are if you want to make a tougher monster with better base stats.
The Bestiary will go into all of this in MUCH more detail, in any event.
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Dread Wraith
3.5: 104 hp
PFRPG: 184 hp
I remember converting Myriana from The Hook Mountain Massacre to Beta (which had the Charisma bonus, but not the d8 HD) and staring in horror when I realized she had gained well over 100 hp in the process. Even with a d8 HD, she'd still be gaining 82 hp in the changeover...
I've only recently come back to D&D, so a lot of the finer mechanics of 3.5 still escape me. I was wondering if in monster design some sort of base array of Primary Statistics (STR, DEX, CON, WIS, INT, CHA) was used as a starting point and then modified with racial and size modifiers or if the Primary Statistics were just chosen with what 'feels right'. If there is an base array of Primary Statistics, what values are used in Pathfinder?
You might consider taking a look at the part of Chapter 12 of the Pathfinder Beta rules called "Creating Monsters". It's somewhat informative (although I don't know how good the guidelines in table 12-6 are in actual practice, so take it with a grain of salt).
I'd generally say that Wisdom's probably a better dump stat for them, since they're immune to mind-affecting effects anyway.
This fits thematically, as well, since Undead are not exactly known for their sanity.
I'd generally say that Wisdom's probably a better dump stat for them, since they're immune to mind-affecting effects anyway.This fits thematically, as well, since Undead are not exactly known for their sanity.
Of course, that also means that no one will hardly ever need fight with skeletons and zombies -- critters with no ranks in Perception and Wis as a dump stat won't notice you walking right past them!
Of course, that also means that no one will hardly ever need fight with skeletons and zombies -- critters with no ranks in Perception and Wis as a dump stat won't notice you walking right past them!I'd generally say that Wisdom's probably a better dump stat for them, since they're immune to mind-affecting effects anyway.This fits thematically, as well, since Undead are not exactly known for their sanity.
Well you could sneak past them easily enough, put you'd need some form of concealment, as they have darkvision shadows don't cut it.
You don't roll to perceive whats right in front of where your-nose-used-to-be.
The Bestiary will go into all of this in MUCH more detail, in any event.
Excellent!! I love knowing how monsters were put together so I don't break something horribly by accident. Breaking it intentionally is a different matter. ;)
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As a general rule, undead are tougher in PFRPG than they were in 3.5, particularly the higher CR they get.
A 3.5 undead has an average of 6.5 hp per HD.
A PFRPG undead has an average of 4.5 hp per HD, but can gain bonuses per HD. Give an undead a CHA of only 14, and his average HP per HD is back up to 6.5. Give him a Cha of 12 and the Toughness feat and you're ALSO at 6.5 hp/HD.
For most undead, you can probably expect to see Charisma scores of 14 or higher as a result; mindless undead will generally have around 10 or 11 Cha (similar to how many mindless vermin have 10 or 11 Cha scores), but will have pretty good DR for their level (or the aforementioned Toughness feat). This does mean zombies and skeletons, essentially, are going to be a little less tough, but if that means you can throw a lot more at a low level party to get in the Horde of Undead kicks, that's good! It DOES mean that Charisma is not a dump stat for undead... I'd generally say that Wisdom's probably a better dump stat for them, since they're immune to mind-affecting effects anyway.
Certainly other undead do take a hit to their hp, but that's nothing that bumping up their charisma 2 or 4 points won't fix.
Just a question, why use Charisma to add bonuses to Hit Points? It seems an odd choice. I know the 3.5 rules state to use CHA instead of CON, but since you are changing quite a bit. Why not this?
Especially since you changed the undead to d8s instead of d12s, why not give the undead a CON score? Or use another state, like STR or INT?
-Pete
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Creative Director
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Just a question, why use Charisma to add bonuses to Hit Points? It seems an odd choice. I know the 3.5 rules state to use CHA instead of CON, but since you are changing quite a bit. Why not this?
Especially since you changed the undead to d8s instead of d12s, why not give the undead a CON score? Or use another state, like STR or INT?
The concept of undead not having a Constitution because they're not alive is fun, for one. And anything that makes Charisma more useful overall is also good for the game. And of the three mental stats, Charisma is the one that's closest to "strength of personalty." Of the three, it's the high Charisma scores that get folks famous, basically, or into positions of leadership and thus secure them a form of immortality even after they die.
And honestly, all of the five other stats already have ENOUGH good reasons to have high scores. Putting bonus undead hp on any of those others makes that stat too good for undead.
And there is more.
Many of the classic immunities for undead stem from the lack of a Con score. Adding a Con score changes that mechanic and requires revisiting the lack of a Con score in animated objects for unification of the rules.
Strength is out because the incorporeal undead don't have a strength score. And Intelligence is limited at best due to the mindless undead not having much to speak of - if any.
That leaves Dex, Wis, and Cha.
Of those three, Dex makes the least amount of sense no matter how you look at it. Leaving only Wis and Cha.
At this point, I can go either way. Both make sense, and would require a little bit of a stat rewrite to fit well.
Wis has the added effect of adjusting Will saves, so it would require more attention.
And Cha was used in 3.5, and needs a little more love as Mr. Jacobs alluded to.
Is Charisma the best choice? That is debatable. But it is certainly the best choice that is the easiest to implement and has tradition behind it as well.
Random question for jj or other paizono's: i see that the bonus bestiary says all artwork is not open content. I'm going to go way out on a limb and assume that none of the monster pics can be used in an online bestiary? I'm adding the beasties from the bonus bestiary to http://www.d20pfsrd.com and wanted to include pics but i would understand if it was disallowed (as it appears to be).
Images are not open content.
Images are not open content.
Fair enough. For everyones information then, all of the monsters should be available at http://www.d20pfsrd.com in an hour or two. I already have most up there, including the rules info from the beginning.
Contact me at jreyst@gmail.com if you have corrections, suggestions, or would like to help.
All monsters from the Bonus Bestiary are now online here.
All monsters from the Bonus Bestiary are now online here.
That's an excellent resource! I'll be saving the main page under "favorites" as soon as I get home.
All monsters from the Bonus Bestiary are now online here.
Awesome. You're doing a great job on this BTW.
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Creative Director
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Random question for jj or other paizono's: i see that the bonus bestiary says all artwork is not open content. I'm going to go way out on a limb and assume that none of the monster pics can be used in an online bestiary? I'm adding the beasties from the bonus bestiary to http://www.d20pfsrd.com and wanted to include pics but i would understand if it was disallowed (as it appears to be).
All of the art in our products is closed. You can't reuse any of it without getting our permission. Note that a fair amount of our art is in the fan resource kit, but for actual products that won't work.
EDIT: Should read all posts before replying to make sure questions aren't already answered...
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Creative Director
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I have a question considering faerie dragon: what happens if a wizard has faerie dragon familiar and that familiar gains levels in sorcerer class?
As a general rule... a familiar has its own progression for gaining in power, just as an animal companion. It can't gain levels or advance in hit dice in other ways. If the wizard wants to "transpose" the faerie dragon into a cohort from a familiar by taking the Leadership feat, that's one way you could have a sorcerer faerie dragon buddy... but a sorcerer familiar is not really allowed because it's not balanced.
Of course, if in your game giving a spellcaster a free bonus sorcerer buddy won't disrupt your game or inspire jealousy in the other players... give it a try!
All of the art in our products is closed. You can't reuse any of it without getting our permission. Note that a fair amount of our art is in the fan resource kit, but for actual products that won't work.
Thanks for the response James. I wanted to make sure before I posted anything. I think I've followed the community use guidelines pretty well so far and made sure to check inside the front cover of the bestiary for what the rights are. It was pretty clear that art work was *not* community use but just wanted to make sure.
On a side note, does anyone know if the images Jans uses on d20srd.org are available in one package somewhere? I may just use those, or not use any. Alternatively I was considering contacting artists on deviantart or elfwood to see if anyone had art already for certain creatures that they would let me use. I really want some sort of art, preferably Paizo art, but I understand that they have to keep *something* for themselves :)
Oh wait, it almost slipped past me.. you mentioned not being able to use it without your permission. How does one go about getting said permission?
I have a question considering faerie dragon: what happens if a wizard has faerie dragon familiar and that familiar gains levels in sorcerer class?
Or what happens if a faerie dragon sorcerer casts a Find Familiar spell and gets an elf wizard to be his familiar?
Oh, wait, where did that Find Familiar spell go...
Funny true story:
I had a player who usually was way too wrapped up in his character, to the point of tantrums when bad things happened in game to his character. And this player was about to cast a fairly high level spell he had researched to replace his puny cat with a cool high-level kind of familiar.
So I told him that I would make up a chart of suitable mosters from all my various monster books and next week he could roll on the table to see what he would get (that's how Find Familar worked in those days). I really made the table with cool stuff.
But I also got together in advance with another player and we worked out a prank.
On the fateful day I opened up my notebook and my in-on-it friend wanted to see the chart so I held it where we could both look. The mage player rolled his d% and got something in the 80s. Too high for my plan, so I ad libbed and told him "oh, sweet, you go to subtable A". Then he rolled a 50. My friend and I looked at each other in surprise and my friend laughed while I just shook my head.
The mage player asked what he had rolled up. I said "This creature has several different types. You need to roll one more d% to see which type you get." So he rolled. We looked at the chart (which didn't exist the but the mage player didn't know this) as I ran my finger across the page and my friend swore. Bad word. I won't repeat it. Then my friend said "Why did you put him on the list?" I replied that I thought it would be funny and besides, who would ever roll it. My friend immediately answered "Apparently Robert would." And we both looked at him, dragging out the suspense.
"What did I get? What did I get?" he kept asking. My friend said "You have to let him reroll. He can't have him. No way!" to which I said "Heck with it, he rolled it fair and square, so I say let's do it." My friend's only response was to shake his head.
I then went off into a dramatic description of the Find Familiar spell seeming to do nothing at first, which is normal. It sometimes takes the new familiar some time to arrive. Then a light appears out of a tiny hole in the ground, that grows and spreads into a small brillian fissure and then expands into what can only be an extra-dimensional Gate. The smell of sulfur fills the air and nearly gagged our mage.
And out of the portal stepped...
Orcus.
"No way!" the wizard's player cried in disbelief. I just nodded and said "you rolled it." and my friend pointed at the imaginary chart and just nodded like he was in shock. I think the wizard's player really was in shock.
Then Orcus looked down at this little puny wizard and said "No f***ing way! I summon a new familiar and I get you! I'm screwed!"
I thought my player was going to have a heart attack. His face turned purple and blotchy. "What do you mean I'm his familiar. I am the one who cast Find Familar".
I said "Apparently, so did Orcus. Magic can be funny that way. You didn't think someone your level could have him for a familiar did you? Who gets to be whose familiar is decided by who is the most powerful. That ain't you."
"Come along," Orcus said, reaching for the stunned wizard. "You better not piss me off too much. I've been known to eat my familiars even if it means going a year without one."
"But... But..."
And then followed a heated argument about how I can't just kill off his character like that because of a stupid idea of putting Orcus on the familiar table. We argued for a few minutes, with my in-on-it friend taking my side until the player was about to start throwing heavy appliances at me before we told him it was all a joke.
I'm not sure if he has forgiven me to this day.
His actual roll resulted in a young gynosphynx familiar. He was quite happy with that, considering the alternative.
On a side note, does anyone know if the images Jans uses on d20srd.org are available in one package somewhere? I may just use those, or not use any. Alternatively I was considering contacting artists on deviantart or elfwood to see if anyone had art already for certain creatures that they would let me use. I really want some sort of art, preferably Paizo art, but I understand that they have to keep *something* for themselves :)
The images Jans uses for d20srd.org are actually hotlinked/leeched from the art galleries hosted at wizards.com.
The images Jans uses for d20srd.org are actually hotlinked/leeched from the art galleries hosted at wizards.com.
Hey Ross - I didn't realize it before, but it looks like you are the main guy behind the Wayfinder Google Site? I emailed the webmaster email address earlier. Does that go to you? I was wondering if there is a reason your Google Site is still password access only? Mine is open to the public and I want to make sure I am not stepping on anyones toes or violating any rules I am not aware of.
Ha ha ha!
Of course, *I* would probably have called your bluff, and taken up the role play challenge/opportunity to learn all the ins and outs of Orcus and his posse while I figure out a way to end the Familiar-tude or wait for the 1 year to end or whatever... But I am not that player :-)
Art stuff.
I think that a cool option would be to start a thread asking members of the community for art. Hugo Solis (butter frog on deviant art) in particular, would be a good place to start. You can check out the Wayfinder fanzine for some samples of art from the community.