My group will be meeting for session #3 in a little over a day, and they will most likely be entering the Catacombs of Wrath. I'm pretty comfortable with most of the material they will encounter, but I'm concerned about how the showdown with Erylium will go.
I have read in several blogs that the battle tends to go one of two ways:
A. The quasit consistently becomes invisible at will and pelts party members with her dagger until they get frustrated and leave, OR
B. The quasit takes enough damage that she retreats, only to live for another day.
I know from past experience that dealing with creatures that have the abilities that Erylium has can lead to very tedious, frustrating combat episodes, and I desperately want to avoid that while staying true to the rules.
Could some of you who have DM'ed for RotRL please let me know exactly how you handled the battle and your results? Also, please share any tips that you wish you'd known when you ran it?
Thank you!
I ran it mostly as written we had a Druid with Fairy Fire memorized and we have a deep gnome who blinded Erylium so they ended up defeating her with the help of the Druids giant gheko
My group got so absolutely sick of her DR 5 that the Monk drowned her in the decorative pool.
For my group, the Damage Reduction was not the problem (Annoying as it was ...)but, I use Epic Build so the fighter and rogue had good damage bonuses.
The huge issue that they had was the Invisibility at will. This is what kept defeating them.
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In my campaign, it went like this:
On their first encounter, the characters used Diplomacy to avoid getting attacked by Erylium, and they left the room.
They came back a second time, and she wasn't as nice. Invisible, she summoned 2 spiders to attack the group, in addition to a Sinspawn. After they had dispatched them, the group used Diplomacy again, enhanced by the offering of a bottle of wine.
They got a good roll, so Erylium flew down, reappeared and took the bottle. At that point, the paladin tried to grapple her, but missed. Erylium started flying up, but the wizard stunned her with a Color Spray spell. Then, the paladin grappled her again. Seeing that they had trouble damaging her with weapons and spells, they tied her up, gagged her, put her into a bag, and brought her (furiously struggling) aaaalll the way back up to the Sandpoint Cathedral, hoping that one of the priests would know how to handle her.
So it became more a cinematic encounter. I decided that Madam Mvashti was present at the church when they got there, and she killed Erylium with a few Shocking Grasp spells.
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She was one of the reasons it took my PCs three attempts to clear the Catacombs. The cleric's and sorcerer's touch attack spells came in handy through the fight, but the party finally got her when one of the guys made a desperate leaping attack with the blanket from his bedroll. She failed the 50% miss check from invisibility and the player ended up rolling a 20 on the attack with another 20 for the crit confirmation. Once she was on the ground, the PCs, proceeded to pound the crap out of her, throwing additional layers of cover on her as she started to cut her way out. It cost the party a few bedrolls and a cloak (from being cut, slashed and covered in quasit goo), but they did finally defeat her.
Contributor
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That's funny, zylphryx. Reminds me of a battle I had using one of my favorite characters from many years ago. He was a fairly high-level wizard and ended up in a huge spell duel with Manshoon (from FR). Both of us used up every spell we had memorized. I finally won by effectively bull-rushing him off of a cliff. Not exactly the most "wizardly" way to win, but it served the purpose. (Of course, the jerk still had several clones tucked away and eventually came back, but victory was mine that day.)
I'm slightly more optimistic about how my players will handle this encounter. I know it's probably not necessary at this point, but I'm going to go ahead and spoilerize my comments, anyway:
One thing I haven't heard many people talking about is how they used the information in Tsuto's journal.
My PCs couldn't quite get to Tsuto before he fled. Two of the party members went after him while the others looked around for Ameiko. When they headed down the tunnel after him, they took a wrong turn and ran smack into the first sinspawn. They were nearly killed, but I let them escape by having the sinspawn stop chasing them before they left the tunnels.
When they found Tsuto's journal, which clearly mentions a quasit, a succubus, and a being called Malfeshnekor, they made a few knowledge (the planes) rolls and did some research at the Cathedral and with Madame Mvashti and learned about how quasits and other demons have a weakness for cold iron weapons or those magically aligned with the forces of goodness.
Then, after some diplomacy and shopping around, I let them purchase a few, basic items made of cold iron (a matched set of 3 cold iron daggers and a cold iron spear tip from Savah's Armory, and a cold iron hand axe from Ven Vinder, who they managed not to seriously offend in the situation with his daughter). Since the normal versions of these items are relatively inexpensive and cold iron just doubles the cost of the items, I let them purchase normal cold iron weapons (i.e., not masterwork). It was in their 2nd-level characters' budgets and gives them a better chance to survive without offering up an unrealistic array of cold iron weapons matching everyone's "favored" weapon choice.
I also had Father Zantus offer to prepare scrolls of align weapon at cost (75gp), but that was still a bit too steep for them at the time.
Das Korvut at Red Dog Smithy might have been able to make their preferred weapons for the right price, but time is of the essence. They think Nualia is in the Catacombs below the city, so the urgency is even greater for them.
I'm a little concerned about the invisibility thing. One of my PCs is a wizard who knows guiding light from the Spell Compendium, but that doesn't work when the target has total concealment (a la invisibility), so they'll have to be clever and lucky. I'm thinking initiative will play a key role in how well they do.
One minor problem is that the same wizard PC, who came into the game late, started with a 2nd-level character and chose to buy some cold iron arrows. This would be fine, but the players all seem to think the sinspawn is some variety of demon and keep using their cold iron weapons on it. Hopefully, they'll figure out the truth after the first encounter and won't waste any more cold iron ammo on them.
I'm also considering using Erylium's invisibility and her awful breath as a story device by having her follow the PCs around for a bit before they finally meet up with her. They might hear a hideous rasping voice just behind them, accompanied by a horrible smell. The sounds will quickly disappear as the character turns around, but the smell will remain. They're bound to think the place is haunted. ;)
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spoilerized some stuff
The party I DM'd for had quite a bit of trouble at first. In a fit of rage, the Cleric of Gorum, went for a grapple and succeeded... it was all over after that.
The group did this fight before heading to Thistletop, and it kind of set the stage for all of the adventure path we've played since then. They originally didn't take things very seriously when encountering the Goblins, but Erylium sobered them, and they're now a little more jumpy about most every fight.
Our cleric had a pretty mean Perception score, so she pointed us in her direction while my character started spraying her in the blood of her own dead sinspawn. Once reasonably visible, my character lassoed her to melee range... end of Erylium... and of the campaign, as the GM was sadly the kind of control freak who can't stand his players thinking outside the box, so he tried to godmode Erylium, the players unanimously vetoed the godmode, he threw a fit, and that was pretty much the end of that campaign.
Our gaming table is pretty much fine though, as we're all GMs too, and we take turns at GMing our respective campaigns, it was only this control freak who left.
Morale: A GM without players is a general without an army, the GM screen confers you no privileged status. Think about it next time you think of telling your players you're doing them a favor by GMing.
The group I was DMing fought her for a while, but her AC, DR, invisibility, fast healing and resistance to fire (fire domain druid in party) caused them to become frustrated after a while.
In the end, they did grapple and drown her, but by then, most of the players felt that they were not able to make a meaningful contribution to the encounter, and didn't feel very satisfied in victory. Some players may view an experience like that in a different way, but my group felt that they were out-classed. (I hate telling my players that the 19 they rolled to hit misses!)
If I were to do it over again, I would change the encounter so that the players had a real chance without using the grapple method. I think getting her AC to something like a 20, and switching 2 points from Dex to Str, would have made her less invincible. I would have also given her some consumables, so that the party would have a strong incentive to drop her ASAP.
One result of the encounter was that everyone discovered how cheep cold iron was. Since then, everyone always has cold iron and a little silver weaponry by third level.
Note: I'm not against encounters that require different tactics. I just think that this one was a little too impossible, unless a single alternate method (grapple) was used.
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Note: I'm not against encounters that require different tactics. I just think that this one was a little too impossible, unless a single alternate method (grapple) was used.
No, there are different methods that can be effective. Touch attacks (such as Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, etc) have a much better chance against her. Cold iron is effective. Obscuring Mist can level the playing field a bit. True Strike, Magic Weapon, Protection From Evil and Magic Missile all have their place within the encounter.
The encounter is going to be very tough any way you look at it due to the invisibility at will, but as long as the Dice Gods do not frown on the PCs, then it is still possible to get through the encounter.
Thanks for all the feedback and ideas - I really appreciate it. We will be meeting in the morning, so I have precious little time left - but I need help with one more thing.
If Erylium can go invisible at will, does that mean she can begin her round invisible, then become visible when she attacks, and then end her round by becoming invisible again (like a free action?) - does she have to wait until the next round to go invisible?
If Erylium can go invisible at will, does that mean she can begin her round invisible, then become visible when she attacks, and then end her round by becoming invisible again (like a free action?) - does she have to wait until the next round to go invisible?
In Erylium's stat block, Invisibility is listed as a spell-like ability. Spell-like abilities have a "casting time" of one standard action unless otherwise specified (PHB 180). The at-will portion refers to how many times per day she can use it.
Hope this helps.
It still was nasty.
For our original group as well. Im about to start another group through in 2 weeks.
Okay, session #3 complete: Basically, after encountering the initial sinspawn in the first cave, the heroes went straight to Erylium's throne room before hitting anything else (I was worried this might happen). They were very cautious, but were not prepared for this particular fight - the wrong spells were memorized, etc. After realizing how difficult Erylium was to hit, and dealing with her summoned monstrous spiders, they finally succumbed to her "cause fear" spell in which all but one party member fled. They managed to rescue the lone incapacitated party member and ran back to the glassworks to once again board up the entrance. They were clearly overwhelmed, but they have gotten together and come up with a strategy for going back and taking her next time. I don't know what that strategy is, but I hope it works!
I felt like I played Erylium fairly. After the initial summoning round with the runewell, I basically alternated each round between spell casting and turning invisible, or dagger throwing and turning invisible. A couple of rounds she remained visible because she chose to move instead. The party never hit her once, and her +12 attack with dagger startled them, though she still missed a lot with it.
Our group will meet again on Monday, so I will try to post the results of "Erylium - the Return" that evening. Thanks again for your insights.
If Erylium can go invisible at will, does that mean she can begin her round invisible, then become visible when she attacks, and then end her round by becoming invisible again (like a free action?) - does she have to wait until the next round to go invisible?In Erylium's stat block, Invisibility is listed as a spell-like ability. Spell-like abilities have a "casting time" of one standard action unless otherwise specified (PHB 180). The at-will portion refers to how many times per day she can use it.
Hope this helps.
The other thing to remember is that her +1 Tiny Returning Dagger returns to the square she left it from. If she moves after throwing it, it won't come back to her. So, she throws the dagger, is no longer invisible, and now has to wait around until her next turn to get it back. All the while she's no longer invisible and easily targeted.
If they run away then they should check to see if anyone in town has a scroll of Glitterdust for sale. It's only a DC4 caster level check to cast from the scoll since I assume they are not 3rd level yet.
My players ended up coming back a second time to fight her after retreating. They got a few weapons that would effect her, but for some reason didn't really stock up much on ranged stuff (they seem range averse for some reason, with the exception of the guy planning on going Soulbow eventually).
They used Faerie Fire to good effect (readied action to cast it on her should she appear until they got it on her).
The final piece that took her out was a natural 20 on a roll to hit her with a tanglefoot bag. She failed some rolls and fell into the pool in the room (not the runewell)... where they drowned her.
I like encounters like this since they force the players to remember things like Aid Other actions and the like... how quickly such lessons are forgotten.
Sean Mahoney
"No, there are different methods that can be effective. Touch attacks (such as Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, etc) have a much better chance against her. Cold iron is effective. Obscuring Mist can level the playing field a bit. True Strike, Magic Weapon, Protection From Evil and Magic Missile all have their place within the encounter."
Hmmm, I can't say that they would be "ineffective", but I really don't see how a 2nd level party is going to defeat her with those things. Keep in mind that she has a touch AC of 19 once her Shield of Faith spell is cast. The average caster is lucky to have a +2 melee touch or a +4 ranged touch. In the event of a miss the melee touch will stay charged, the ranged touch is gone forever. Combining True Strike with Shocking Grasp is the most effective I could come up with, but even if done twice, that is an average damage of about 14, during which time she heals 8. 4 magic missiles comes up with the same average damage over the same 4 rounds. Both of those examples use up 4 spells, and assume she can be targetted right away.
Cold iron weapons are nice, but she still has a 24 AC vs attacks, and most characters are lucky to have a +7. Considering her flying (50' Perfect) and additional powers, I just don't see her taking enough damage to end the fight before her fast healing and invisibility save her. The players would each have to roll 17's on consecutive rounds, AND do fairly well on damage. Unlike other fights where you can keep going around the table hoping for a 20 (lame in my opinion) she is just going to keep healing, and doing a little damage every round. It is possible to get lucky, but if I was a player, I would not be too hopeful.
A 3rd level party is a somewhat different story, but she is still no easy mark.
The other thing to remember is that her +1 Tiny Returning Dagger returns to the square she left it from. If she moves after throwing it, it won't come back to her. So, she throws the dagger, is no longer invisible, and now has to wait around until her next turn to get it back. All the while she's no longer invisible and easily targeted.
If they run away then they should check to see if anyone in town has a scroll of Glitterdust for sale. It's only a DC4 caster level check to cast from the scoll since I assume they are not 3rd level yet.
When I had her throw her +1 returning dagger, I was having it immediately return during that same action. Does the dagger not return until the next round? I was not aware of that.
My group will be meeting for session #3 in a little over a day, and they will most likely be entering the Catacombs of Wrath. I'm pretty comfortable with most of the material they will encounter, but I'm concerned about how the showdown with Erylium will go.
I have read in several blogs that the battle tends to go one of two ways:
A. The quasit consistently becomes invisible at will and pelts party members with her dagger until they get frustrated and leave, OR
B. The quasit takes enough damage that she retreats, only to live for another day.I know from past experience that dealing with creatures that have the abilities that Erylium has can lead to very tedious, frustrating combat episodes, and I desperately want to avoid that while staying true to the rules.
Could some of you who have DM'ed for RotRL please let me know exactly how you handled the battle and your results? Also, please share any tips that you wish you'd known when you ran it?
Thank you!
The first time my party went after her, I had her effectively take out the one person who would have been able to hit her with any consistency. Namely, the fighter. Glob of goo, fear effect, etc. Then it was invisible, hit and run on the party, invisible again. She even bullrushed the halfling into the fountain of much painful cold and rage. It helped that the wizard early on decided the fight was pointless and chose to leave. Had she stayed, it might have been different. However, as it went, the party got frustrated and left.
They came back a couple of levels later and then toasted her in two rounds. No chance to run.
The other thing to remember is that her +1 Tiny Returning Dagger returns to the square she left it from. If she moves after throwing it, it won't come back to her. So, she throws the dagger, is no longer invisible, and now has to wait around until her next turn to get it back. All the while she's no longer invisible and easily targeted.
If they run away then they should check to see if anyone in town has a scroll of Glitterdust for sale. It's only a DC4 caster level check to cast from the scoll since I assume they are not 3rd level yet.
When I had her throw her +1 returning dagger, I was having it immediately return during that same action. Does the dagger not return until the next round? I was not aware of that.
DMG p.225 "...It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn)...if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown."
Hmmm, I can't say that they would be "ineffective", but I really don't see how a 2nd level party is going to defeat her with those things.
I think the main balancing factor is that she isn't dishing out much damage either. This means that a party of 4 gets a LOT of tries to hit her. They should be able to grapple her and take her out at some point. Good tactics like grapple and/or aid other make this a TON easier though.
All that said, it is indeed a tough fight. I LOVE that it exists in a way that isn't deadly right at the beginning of the AP to help teach some lessons.
Sean Mahoney
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It was rather embarrassing. I was the DM and at the time she was flying and happened to stop over the fountain. The halfling bard cast hideous laugher and I rolled a one for the save. She fell in the water ... and I failed the next two saves for drowning ...
Yeah, embarrassing.
Andrew
LOL! That's awesome!
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LOL! That's awesome!It was rather embarrassing. I was the DM and at the time she was flying and happened to stop over the fountain. The halfling bard cast hideous laugher and I rolled a one for the save. She fell in the water ... and I failed the next two saves for drowning ...
Yeah, embarrassing.
Andrew
My players thought so, in fact the bard is still giddy. Too bad he died the next session and then they all died in the Misgivings for being really really really dumb (ran past all the ghouls to get the to big fight at the end of the night and got hit by 4 groups of ghouls).
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We had highflying action in our battle with Erylium. One of the players jumped over the pulpits balustrade and caught her mid-air. He made a really bad grapple check, which led to quite some concern about the outcome of this action (my players don't care for stat blocks, MM entries and special size modifiers), so there was a lot of cheering when I managed to generatee a negative grapple check result for E.
She's still living though they decided to bind her instead of killing her, so she may escape her bindings via her raven alternate form.
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My PC had a single levitate potion which they had from an introduction scenario. After 1 hour and a half of meaningless fight, where they tried to grapple it. The monk with +11/+12 Jump drank the levitate potion went under ERylium and jumped up.
After a few tries he rolled a 20 to grap and went down with Eryllium in his arms.
The same round, all guys made excellent rolls to hit (hopefully as they could have hit the monk) and killed him in one round ....
Now I don't understand how people can use touch spells since the Quasit is flying at 20' high (height of the ceiling). Am I missing something ?
Both of my groups ultimately defeated her through some sort of grappling. I let it play out for a little while with Summoned Monsters and the dagger and other spells, but then eventually had her:
1.) Come down low enough that a monk made a flying tackle off of the edge the platform that the minor runewell sits on. He caught her in flight, and they both fell down to the lower floor below. The staircases on either side are gradual.
2.) Conversely a fighter in the second group jumped and grabbed/grappled her while she hovered over that same platform that the runewell rests on. Then she just yanked Erylium down.
I ruled that the ceiling was a uniform 20' high, but if you're standing on the upper balcony the ceiling is a lot lower. If Erylium hovers nearer to the minor runewell, they can reach her with a reasonable effort. When I wanted the fight to play out a little, I had her hover away from the balcony where they couldn't reach her as easily.
Btw, I forgot to add how my group dealt with Erylium.
From what I remember most physical attacks (arrows/bolts, etc) missed. Casters did him in, mostly by delaying their actions until Erylium attacked then casting immediately, mostly magic missiles.
I usually start all my campaigns with Mage/Sorc characters getting a Wand of Magic Missiles (half charged) and the healer type gets a Wand of CLW (also half charged). Non-Casters get a masterwork weapon (or composite bow if Ranger is present) and a single Pot of CLW.
Im still doing this when I start RotRL again this friday night, even though the healer type will be using the PFRPG Channel Energy rules.
:)
My group used lassos to rope her, drag her down and grapple her. It took some time, but after dealing with the Sinspawn and Summons, she didn't do more than a few points of damage each round. I did play her as insanely overconfident, because otherwise there is very little chance of an unprepared party of that level to beat her. Flight, Fast Healing and Invisibility, wow.
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Hmmm, I can't say that they would be "ineffective", but I really don't see how a 2nd level party is going to defeat her with those things. Keep in mind that she has a touch AC of 19 once her Shield of Faith spell is cast. The average caster is lucky to have a +2 melee touch or a +4 ranged touch. In the event of a miss the melee touch will stay charged, the ranged touch is gone forever. Combining True Strike with Shocking Grasp is the most effective I could come up with, but even if done twice, that is an average damage of about 14, during which time she heals 8. 4 magic missiles comes up with the same average damage over the same 4 rounds. Both of those examples use up 4 spells, and assume she can be targetted right away.Cold iron weapons are nice, but she still has a 24 AC vs attacks, and most characters are lucky to have a +7. Considering her flying (50' Perfect) and additional powers, I just don't see her taking enough damage to end the fight before her fast healing and invisibility save her. The players would each have to roll 17's on consecutive rounds, AND do fairly well on damage. Unlike other fights where you can keep going around the table hoping for a 20 (lame in my opinion) she is just going to keep healing, and doing a little damage every round. It is possible to get lucky, but if I was a player, I would not be too hopeful.
A 3rd level party is a somewhat different story, but she is still no easy mark.
Oh I agree, I was just making the point that there was some measure of potential for 2nd level characters to have a better chance to hit utilizing ranged touch attacks and the like. It won't kill her, certainly, but it can hurt her.
In the end, however, for the group I am running through there currently, it all came down to the bard deciding enough was enough, pulling out her bedroll, attempting to capture the quasit with it and rolling a 20. After that, it was basically a matter of all the PCs pounding the bejeesus out of the writhing mass within the bundle of fabric.
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Could some of you who have DM'ed for RotRL please let me know exactly how you handled the battle and your results? Also, please share any tips that you wish you'd known when you ran it?
Thank you!
Funnily enoug, I DMed it last week, so probably at the same time than you.
The party first had a rather rough time, as they were not really prepared for the fight. They had found clues in Tsuto's journal and deduced that they would face demons of some kind. So they bought a cold iron longsword.
They had not anticipated a 3D fight however, and did not have much in the way of ranged weapons. Especially not damaging ones.
Now the fight was not as deadly as it could have (I'd have wished to sacre them a bit more. The good damaging part was the Inflict moderate wounds, but the summon monsters were rather abject failures.
This devolved into a kind of stalemate, until the players manouvered around Erylium, and they managed to grapple her above the pool.
I was a bit frustrated, but they were ecstastic after the fight.
I'll try to do a thread with the events in my game, if I can find the time.
I'm now realizing that there are literally hundreds of different ways that people have defeated her, and they're all awesome! The group I DM for finally defeated her with a well-timed stunning fist attack from the monk. Just as she had descended upon our rogue to inflict moderate wounds on his head, the monk had readied his action and when she appeared he stunned her knocking her to the ground. The dwarven fighter then grappled her (easily) and the rest of the party pummeled her until she was dead.
My PCs encountered Elyrium twice, with two very different outcomes.
In the first encounter the PCs (six 3rd level characters) were unprepared and rolled poorly. The quasit took to the air and harassed them for 23 (TWENTY-THREE!) combat rounds. Her high AC, decent DR, and fast healing made life miserable for the PCs. Finally, after the party Fighter hit her with a lucky heavy crossbow crit, she decided to flee.
The PCs (now all 4th level) encountered her again on their second foray into the catacombs. This time Elyrium was a little overconfident. After summoning two spiders to harass the party, she landed very close to them and attempted to use her fear ability. Only the party Monk failed his save and took off running. The other five characters - all of whom were now within 30 feet of her - attacked her. EVERYONE hit. Two of the PCs even rolled crits. Dead quasit.
The party consisted of three level 2 PCs and one level 3 NPC sorcerer (no connection to any of the official Sandpoint NPC, as I hadn't used Sandpoint) when they fought her. The NPC failed the save against fear and contributed nothing except drawing the spell towards herself. PCs killed summoned creatures very quickly, but were unable to do anything to Erylium, until she got a bit overconfident and decided to invisibility-ambush the ranger. Then they grappled her, then she wriggled out due to extremely poor check and became invisible again, then they threw a cloak on her square to pinpoint her and grappled her again. Then the ranger, the only PC capable of making some damage stick through DR and fast healing began hammering her with a guisarme (she heard the noise that PCs made in outer rooms, so the battle was outside the fountain room). She surrendered and allowed herself to be tied after being reduced to 5 hps or so and about two rounds before the ranger collapsed from the secondary damage of her poison.
Oh, and they let her live, so, considering the imminent reappearance of the Scribbler, it is probably not their last meeting.