People keep saying numbers are down - the game is under threat from new technologies.
So how do we change this?
The numbers
Maintaining the current players - This is essential as it requires far more effort to get people to buy a new product than to get repeat business.
I think Paizo is outstanding in doing this - They have the right combination of quality and approachableness, they foster a good community and respond to fan input.
Bringing back old players - I think an untapped market is those who no longer game. These people have probably put aside the toys of their youth. If gaming can be made attractive for them, you have products that you can pick up and run with with minimal time and effort for example. Then you have people with a reasonable amount of disposable income willing to spend on the game (I am close to being one of these as family and work commitments take far more precedence over gaming). This is why I like the APs as I don't have to do much.
New players - this is the hardest and where the competition with MMO's and tech.
WotC was headed in the right direction with this but went about it the wrong way. I have no Idea how to address this.
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Good questions 8th.
When I (and most of my friends) were younger, it seemed a lot easier to introduce people to the game. Since I finished high school (quite a few years back now) it's become harder and harder to find people who've never played D&D before that have the time or inclination to give it a go. I don't know, maybe I just don't sell it very well, but few of my friends have been much interested in playing.
oh thats easy, we do all that devil worshipping kidnapping, brainwashing stuff we were so famous for back in the 80's LOL
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Well, you have to get your parents out of the room. So condescending!
"Dungeons & Dragons, Dungeons & Dragons, Gaaah! Is that all you do? Aren't you ashamed of yourself? Playing pretend still?"
Really, the game will only survive if adults teach their kids. I know adults are crappy parents these days. I know the idea of spending time with your kids is like stealing time from yourself. But hey, why did you have those kids then?
What made RPGs exciting once upon a time was there ability to creep into everyone's imagination. An Adventure Story. Bravery, Monsters and Magic. All good stuff. You could not get that easily when D&D first popped up. Atari had a game called "Adventure". That was the big roleplaying game that D&D competed with.
Step into today.
Kids have RPG gaming at a push of the button. All the details are worked out and ready to play in WoW. If WoW existed back in D&D beginning days, I am not sure if these boards would even exist.
This hobby has a gap that is growing ever wider. Pathfinder and D&D is not introduced to kids by kids anymore. The children are gone from the RPG equation. Kids are console consumers. The RPG hobby is like a bacteria that cannot find a home in the high school lunch room. The only reason there is still money to be had in RPG is that 40 something demographic that has disposable income. Its like an artificial float. It seems like the money is there, but as these elder customers leave the hobby, nothing seems to take their place.
If the hobby is going to survive, parents must go to their children and involve them. The world that I grew up in where my parents were ashamed of my RPG lifestyle has turned into the complete opposite. I am ashamed that I haven't taught my children how to live the RPG lifestyle. In this vacuum, computer games such as WoW are stealing future enthuisists that are the lifeblood to the hobby.
Indoctrinate your kids, so they can go back to school and spark the lunchroom RPG games once more. Then, and only then...will it return to College Dorm Study Rooms and the empty classrooms.
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I agree but I think you answered the problem - time efficient products!
Paizo has moved in the right direction in creating AP and accessories!
Biggest problem in old players coming back, like me, is time. Jobs, family and friends. Add on top of that the same of other like mind people it is sometimes impossible to get folks together.
Take my grioup for an example. I think we have a 19, 25, 27, 34, 34 and 34. They are all male but we have a female player is out atm who is 27 and bloke who is recovering from cancer who is 33. A different mix of small motor apprentice, unemployed/student, salesman, student/basketballer through to engineer and teacher/punlic servant.
The game ONLY happens because of the time I invest and organise. AP is a breath of fresh air as most is ready to go but as you look further there is more and more to add on. I like a lot of add ons that have come out like terrain and paper minis but getting time to construct them is difficult.
I think the more of these stuff that is streamlined directly to adventure materials the better. Make battlemaps that are ready to drop straight in... you end up exciting the players who will in turn invest more money and time into the game.
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I think the more of these stuff that is streamlined directly to adventure materials the better. Make battlemaps that are ready to drop straight in... you end up exciting the players who will in turn invest more money and time into the game.
Yes, computer games are right now.
However, direct attention is what a real child craves. My best memories about RPG is the interaction with people. Seeing them talk, laugh and play upon each other. Getting kids to "feel" this is the very first step.
In multiplayer computer games, voice over internet does help, but I rather see the people I am playing with. On the single player front, there is something quiet and sad about playing single player games by yourself. For me, it becomes a bit empty.
Hearing children say they are bored is a dead giveaway that they can't appreciate the moment. If they are bored, than they lack the creative mind to entertain themselves. In otherwords, they are used to being spoon fed entertainment.
I agree with you. The more vivid maps, cool looking minis, and item cards we can throw at them, the better. These pretty things are what people expect after playing WoW a few hundred hours.
Good questions 8th.
When I (and most of my friends) were younger, it seemed a lot easier to introduce people to the game. Since I finished high school (quite a few years back now) it's become harder and harder to find people who've never played D&D before that have the time or inclination to give it a go. I don't know, maybe I just don't sell it very well, but few of my friends have been much interested in playing.
Thats where I fail I havent got anybody new into the game for years, maybe I dont sell it that well either. As you get older your opportunities to meet new people who would like the game grow less.
oh thats easy, we do all that devil worshipping kidnapping, brainwashing stuff we were so famous for back in the 80's LOL
You would think that would attract people to the game. :-)
I was around for the 80's stuff it wasn't pleasant, I had to put up with mountains of crap heaped on me because I was a visible player. I was lucky because my mum wasn't taken in by the "media hype". A friend of hers that was shocked that mum let me play that "dangerous game" Mum told her she was disappointed in her because she believed what she was being told by the media. She asked her friend if she had seen any "Reds" under the bed or run into the "Yellow Peril" or maybe her friend was thinking about organising a book burning. It shut her friend up.
Maybe this is why I am reluctant to talk to people about gaming. Gamer shame......
If the hobby is going to survive, parents must go to their children and involve them. The world that I grew up in where my parents were ashamed of my RPG lifestyle has turned into the complete opposite. I am ashamed that I haven't taught my children how to live the RPG lifestyle. In this vacuum, computer games such as WoW are stealing future enthuisists that are the lifeblood to the hobby.
Indoctrinate your kids, so they can go back to school and spark the lunchroom RPG games once more. Then, and only then...will it return to College Dorm Study Rooms and the empty classrooms.
Should we then evangelise...... Organise groups to target colleges and high schools like those travelling yo-yo teams.
Do gaming companies and FLGS need to be more proactive and explore alternate methods of getting the message out.The game ONLY happens because of the time I invest and organise. AP is a breath of fresh air as most is ready to go but as you look further there is more and more to add on. I like a lot of add ons that have come out like terrain and paper minis but getting time to construct them is difficult.
I think the more of these stuff that is streamlined directly to adventure materials the better. Make battlemaps that are ready to drop straight in... you end up exciting the players who will in turn invest more money and time into the game.
I think that is something that all gaming companies need to take note of.
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I agree with you. The more vivid maps, cool looking minis, and item cards we can throw at them, the better. These pretty things are what people expect after playing WoW a few hundred hours.
I guess you could take that statement two ways, well in my paranoid mind.
Honestly, I have never played WoW. I am a computer geek with up to the eyeballs in power computers. Only game I play is CoD:WaW which is not as good anger outlet as boxing training or . I have played NWN single player a few years back but that was because I got hooked on the story and before I got involved with my future wife. :)
The direct point I am making is that it takes time. People grow up and get jobs and have families. I do not have to time to invest in creating my own stories. Neither do I have time to catch up with my friends regularly. What Patherfinder did, and originally the D&D 3rd module serious, was give a reason to meet regularly and sell to our partners, family and strained bank balances that it is a worthy reason to return to RPGing.
I completely get your point about hooding creativity and the ability to think for yourself. But I would hasten that you can not judge a book by its cover. There is a market for providing the works, just as there is a market for sowing the seeds and creating the system to unlease the next great RPG creative mind. I think Pathfinder is very close to the mark with their products. For me, the only beef I have is the lack of battlemaps. I recently purchased a Paizo battle map and got my self some dry markers. This will mean I can do the maps up quickly now so I can get the guys playing and talking faster.
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I haven't played for two years now. I have the time and resources, but I'm lacking the peer group--no-one to play with. My contemporaries are too busy with work and/or family, or simply not interested.
I haven't introduced the game to anyone in years. All my gamers in the past decade have been drawn from the preexisting strata. My profession perforce keeps me away from an extremely large group of gamers-- my subordinates :-(
A few times in the last year and so, I have run across someone I thought might be interested, but when I mention the game I get a funny look--kind of something between disbelief and sardonic bemusement-- and a, "Yeah, I played once or twice, when I was a kid."
I tend not to bring it up again after that.
I think the mistake is Computer RPG = role playing. Let’s face it, it is impossible to beat a computer in visual stimulation and instant rules adjudication in a tactical war game. Role playing games need to focus on their strengths, things computers are still incapable of. As good as the quality of Paizo’s Adventure Paths are, they are largely plug and play. As such, it is easy to match with a computer. RPG’s need to move away from their tactical wargame roots to hope to compete with computer games.
While I personally prefer my RPGs in huge, comprehensive tomes, I think 500+ page books tend to put some people off. Hero Games is splitting its forthcoming 6th edition into multiple tomes. I know "phonebook aversion" was one (though probably not the only) factor.
<NOT a flamewar invitation>I think WotC has the right idea as far as creating new gamers. Larger print, smaller page counts, and a emphasis on playability over simulation. Unfortunately, these changess (or at least the way WotC made them) seem to have cost them many of their long term customers. Assuming one agrees they at least had the right idea, the question becomes: Can the game be made more appealing to more casual games without alienating the existing fanbase?
Well, you have to get your parents out of the room. So condescending!
"Dungeons & Dragons, Dungeons & Dragons, Gaaah! Is that all you do? Aren't you ashamed of yourself? Playing pretend still?"
Really, the game will only survive if adults teach their kids. I know adults are crappy parents these days. I know the idea of spending time with your kids is like stealing time from yourself. But hey, why did you have those kids then?
What made RPGs exciting once upon a time was there ability to creep into everyone's imagination. An Adventure Story. Bravery, Monsters and Magic. All good stuff. You could not get that easily when D&D first popped up. Atari had a game called "Adventure". That was the big roleplaying game that D&D competed with.
Honestly I think it all starts with reading books to your kids. I'm a parent, and kids really get into the books and stories you read them. They ask you about them over and over and they never seem to foget them.
My pal has older childern and he games with both his sons, also paints mini's with them.
RPG’s need to move away from their tactical wargame roots to hope to compete with computer games.
Interesting point. Do you mean something much more tactically abstract (Storyteller, etc), rule-lite (Savage Worlds), or both?
Simple answer, gamers must breed more.People keep saying numbers are down - the game is under threat from new technologies.
So how do we change this?
Which requires gamers getting laid more often.
Good luck with that. ;-)
While I personally prefer my RPGs in huge, comprehensive tomes, I think 500+ page books tend to put some people off. Hero Games is splitting its forthcoming 6th edition into multiple tomes. I know "phonebook aversion" was one (though probably not the only) factor.
<NOT a flamewar invitation>I think WotC has the right idea as far as creating new gamers. Larger print, smaller page counts, and a emphasis on playability over simulation. Unfortunately, these changess (or at least the way WotC made them) seem to have cost them many of their long term customers. Assuming one agrees they at least had the right idea, the question becomes: Can the game be made more appealing to more casual games without alienating the existing fanbase?
Ok not a flame I don't know why WotC did the fat print and large amounts of empty space. It did turn me off though, I felt I was getting less for my money. I also think the rules for 4e read poorly, play ok, but the first read is brutal. I do not think 4e as a game is a bad table top game, it plays fine espically using cards with each power and minis nicely painted to add a really nice touch to it all. It can be very nice evening relaxing with pals. I think the marketing was just as bad as you can get though when it comes to keeping long term D&D players.
The question you ask though is can a game be made that is more appealing to new players without alienating the existing fans. I think you need to first deal with what do the two different groups seek in a game or what will draw them into a game.
My thoughts on this are:
New Players
1) Has to be easy to play with a quick read of the basic rules, which should be in as few books as possible.
2) Has to be attractive with nice art and the ability to get say decent minis for a good price. ((WotC has a nice line for this but buying them individually is what I would suggest to a new group of players buy the one that looks like your character and when your ready go buy a metal mini and paint it up, some people really enjoy this aspect of the game))
3) You need easy to run pre-made moduals that teach the dm as well as the players how the game runs. A good story is very important the better the story the better the fun will be. ((RotRL is excellent in my veiw though might be a bit tough for a new DM, still it offers so much that I would suggest it to any non-novice GM))
4) Computer support is a really plus, even more a computer game that uses the rules will help teach the basics in a fun and interesting manner.
Old Players (Respect the classic man!)
1) Whatever edition needs to allow for converse of the previous edition and it needs to have that to start with.
2) Cover the classes and races from the previous edition right off before introducing new classes/races.
3) Do not write the PHB/DMG for a single world new or vastly changed one. It puts older players off.
4) Do not destroy the worlds. (FR got punched in the nuts here, I am not a FR fan but many are and they seem very upset over what 4e did to the Realms.)
5) Do not change the feel of the core classes/races. (To me the classes and races do not feel like they did in 3.X, ask for specifics if you care but it isn't the point here the point is the feel of the classes/races changed and that isn't seen by me as a possitive.)
The new players things are just my ideas of what would draw them in. The old player stuff is what turned me off about 4e and what others have mentioned bothered them.
Now can it be done? I don't know. I think it would be a great game if someone could pull it off.
Now can it be done? I don't know. I think it would be a great game if someone could pull it off.
I think Paizo might be able to do it with Pathfinder, but they would need:
1.) Pathfinder Lite. $10 to $20 (preferrably $10) loss-leader; free in PDF. 128 pages, lots of pretty art, as complete as possible rules for, say, levels 1-3 of Sorceror, Fighter, Cleric, Rogue. Include human, dwarf, elf, halfing. Toss in a basic selection of low-level monsters, and a short (4-8 page) intro adventure. In fact, I'd be shocked if something like this isn't on the radar...
2.) Robust character generation software. I think this is a must-have for many younger (heck, and some older) gamers. It can be done for less than ONE MILLION DOLLARS if you get the right guy on it (read: good designer and coder, MUST play the game). Alternatively, perhaps you could do something like Herolab Pathfinder Edition? You would probably only need the dataset, and the Herolab folks might be willing to flex on the price of the engine if it moves units (the vast majority of their costs are already incurred...I bet it sure would be nice to spread them over several thousand more units.)
3.) This is less of a need, but something I'd look hard at; Pathfinder branded, integrated version of a VTT, preferably extending something that already exists. Way down the road you could look at automated Pathfinder Society reporting, but focus on getting something out there ASAP. Avoid DDI-like debacle at all costs.
Interesting point. Do you mean something much more tactically abstract (Storyteller, etc), rule-lite (Savage Worlds), or both?
Less focus on combat. Those who want to get their dungeon delving hack-n-slash on are better served by beautifully rendered computer games where all the mechanics are hidden away.
Now can it be done? I don't know. I think it would be a great game if someone could pull it off.
I think Paizo might be able to do it with Pathfinder, but they would need:
1. Robust character generation software. I think this is a must-have for many younger (heck, and some older) gamers. It can be done for less than ONE MILLION DOLLARS if you get the right guy on it (read: good designer and coder, MUST play the game). Alternatively, you could do something like Herolab Pathfinder Edition? You would probably only need the datagase, and the Herolab folks might be willing to flex on the price.
2. Pathfinder Lite. $10 to $20 (preferrably $10) loss-leader; free in PDF. 128 pages, lots of pretty art, as complete as possible rules for, say, levels 1-3 of Sorceror, Fighter, Cleric, Rogue. Include human, dwarf, elf, halfing. Basic selection of low-level monsters. In fact, I'd be shocked if something like this isn't on the radar...
Could not agree more about the need for a Robust character generator. And it could be done on the cheap relatively. Heck you could make one using just Excel, given enough time and talent. I have seen a few already that are pretty neat, Pathfinder could do this for a ton less then 1 million.
A box set with the character generator software, thin set of rules for say dwarves, elves, humans, and halflings to play Wizards, Fighters, Rogues, and Clerics. And the very basic rules (skip things like grappling and anything but simple combat). Put in a few plasic minis for each iconic class/race ( Dwarven fighter, Human Cleric, Elven Wizard, Halfling Rogue) a simple game board map and a quick easy to run adventure. Cost maybe 30 bucks and call it a beginners box set.
Put in a couple paper minis for the villians in the set too...
Hey, if I can find a woman and create gamer offspring, anyone can.Simple answer, gamers must breed more.People keep saying numbers are down - the game is under threat from new technologies.
So how do we change this?
Which requires gamers getting laid more often.
Good luck with that. ;-)
Oh cool Dave you have done so already..... I thought you were propositioning me before. I was trying to think of a well crafted let down - Like Dave mate... I'm flattered but as sexy as your avatar is, its biologically impossible and my wife would not be happy. ;-)
I've introduced maybe two dozen people to D&D. Not because I care about the industry (as an AD&D player I rarely buy WoTC products) but because I love D&D - it rocks - and I believe others will love it too!
Here are my personal top two approaches to the mission of gamerising the world!
1. Keep it simple. I run a rules-lite version for new players which is very easy to pick up in half an hour. It's like a super-simple version of AD&D. I'm sure any DM can develop a 'lite' version of D&D for new players. Why? So new players can get on with having fun roleplaying their characters and trying to hit stuff. Then you can focus on creating a great story and gripping situations so they want to come back!
2. Just invite them for a game! Go on just do it! Work colleagues, friends, your wife's friends, family members. I've never regreted running a game for someone who has never played before and they've, at the very least, always found it more diverting than they expected. Some have found a new hobby for life.
That's it - keep the mechanics simple, and get over yourself and invite people to try!
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Really, the game will only survive if adults teach their kids. I know adults are crappy parents these days. I know the idea of spending time with your kids is like stealing time from yourself. But hey, why did you have those kids then?
I asked my sister that the other day. She was complaining about not getting to live "her" life (she has three boys, 14, 8 and 4), so I asked her why she feels entitled to "her" life when she has three kids to raise. She just gave me a look...
As to the topic, well, TTRPGs involve books, which are (to steal a line from CR) kryptonite to kids these days, or so it seems. I can barely get my nephews off the X-Box or the computer long enough to go outside and play some ball, let alone sit down at a table and play a game with books and dice.
That being said, I'm more concerned about kids not exercising that not playing a game that isn't any less sedentary than the X-Box. Get kids outside together, running around, getting the blood pumping, and the creative juices flowing, and maybe D&D will seem more appealing...
I think my generation took to D&D so well because we were the last generation that didn't have home computers and console games when we were little (I was in 6th grade before I saw an Atari, they existed before then, but we didn't see them), and we went outside and made games up for ourselves. D&D could compete with Atari and Nintendo back then, since we were already programmed to use our imaginations.
I pass parks and playgrounds every day that were full when I was in high school, standing empty and unused 9 out of 10 times I pass them now. The kids that used to populate those parks, making stuff up and running around, are glued to their computers and console games now, enjoying some passive entertainment where the software programmer does their imagining for them.
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Interesting point. Do you mean something much more tactically abstract (Storyteller, etc), rule-lite (Savage Worlds), or both?Less focus on combat. Those who want to get their dungeon delving hack-n-slash on are better served by beautifully rendered computer games where all the mechanics are hidden away.
Well, the gaming population has declined since the 80s, after games became less focused on combat and more focused on the "story". Maybe, just maybe, computers and console games are winning because they give gamers what they want, and don't try to force "amateur dinner theater hour" down their throats...
I'm not saying I don't like role playing, I'm just saying if you want to attract more of something, you need to appeal to what the masses want, and "Vampire: the Angst Factory" isn't it...
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There is some merit for rules lite version. I recall the red box being followed by the blue box... each getting more complicated. Similar to ICE MERP and Rolemaster. What has been suggested here is most certainly not new and is vital. Not all players are at the same level as you and not all products need to build off one another to make the game more complex.
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The second point I wanted to respond to was that Computer RPG is not the same as Table Top RPG. I can see how computer games have corrputed old table toppers.
My play group can be divided into two groups - those who know the rules and those who don't. Those who know the rules want to min and max and use every bastard rule/variant to squeeze their character's mechanical potential. This also leads to arguements about rules - blurring of the role of the DM.
The second group I like DMing for. They are out for a good time and dice rolls and killing things is appealling. The dont know the rules and trust the DM to craft a good story.
Old gamers themselves, by human nature in my experience, corropt the game. Systems that build rule upon rule eventually tumble down or fall. Hence games go in cycles so new people can join and old hands get a fresh perspective.
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The second point I wanted to respond to was that Computer RPG is not the same as Table Top RPG. I can see how computer games have corrputed old table toppers.
My play group can be divided into two groups - those who know the rules and those who don't. Those who know the rules want to min and max and use every bastard rule/variant to squeeze their character's mechanical potential. This also leads to arguements about rules - blurring of the role of the DM.
The second group I like DMing for. They are out for a good time and dice rolls and killing things is appealling. The dont know the rules and trust the DM to craft a good story.
Old gamers themselves, by human nature in my experience, corropt the game. Systems that build rule upon rule eventually tumble down or fall. Hence games go in cycles so new people can join and old hands get a fresh perspective.
Yeah, I agree to a point. I would love nothing more than to find people interested in playing an old 1e game and just have fun, but it doesn't seem to appeal to people who need fourteen million options and ways to break the game in their favor any more...
I'm not saying I don't like role playing, I'm just saying if you want to attract more of something, you need to appeal to what the masses want, and "Vampire: the Angst Factory" isn't it...
OUCH
The problem with refocusing on combat is that the computer games do it so much more visually and quickly.
Personally I think it is a losing battle. TTRPGS will never recapture the numbers they had in their heyday. Not that it was ever more than a 'niche' hobby anyway. As long as you can find someone to play with (and in this day of computer connection it is easy, I haven't run a meatspace game in a decade but I get my gaming fix thru PbPs now) the games will endure. After all, horses aren't ever going to be as popular as they were a century ago, but there are still plenty of stables around for the hobby rider. TTRPGs will survive, just not expand, IMO.
I'm not saying I don't like role playing, I'm just saying if you want to attract more of something, you need to appeal to what the masses want, and "Vampire: the Angst Factory" isn't it...
I agree and disagree. I think the masses have spoken. For killing things and taking their stuff, computer games are tough to beat. I grant you that some people play role playing games for the social interaction. For those players, role playing games must compete with board and card games. Many of which are far cheaper and easier to pick up. For us angsty drama queens, there are LARPs.
I guess role playing games appeal mostly to people who want a little bit of all of the above. For those who focus on one aspect, they are likely to go elsewhere.
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Hey, if I can find a woman and create gamer offspring, anyone can.Simple answer, gamers must breed more.People keep saying numbers are down - the game is under threat from new technologies.
So how do we change this?
Which requires gamers getting laid more often.
Good luck with that. ;-)
Agreed, especially after my wife's discovery on Saturday ...
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Agreed, especially after my wife's discovery on Saturday ...Hey, if I can find a woman and create gamer offspring, anyone can.Simple answer, gamers must breed more.People keep saying numbers are down - the game is under threat from new technologies.
So how do we change this?
Which requires gamers getting laid more often.
Good luck with that. ;-)
Congrats. Start buying dice now.
Frankly, I think WotC has taken the correct step to amend this trend. "Rules-lite" isn't what's needed to push RPGs into a much, much larger audience, it's "rules-simple". The basics of 4e are easier to understand than 3.5e...it's easier to make a character, easier to understand your options during play, etc.
Whether you like 4e or not, I think it's hard to argue with that point.
GURPS, on the other hand, is difficult for a newcomer (and some veterans) to understand. The "lite" version, frankly, doesn't amend that situation...it just includes fewer rules and options. I love GURPS but, then again, I've been playing RPGs since Star Wars came out - and I've delt with every kind of whacko system from Star Frontiers to MERP.
My hope is that WotC's new edition will bring more people in the door and they'll branch out from there.
M
PS Please, no 4e arguments (either direction) based on anything I've said.
I have several suggestions.
1. Read great heroic fantasy to your kids. Lawrence Watt-Evans has some wonderful books. 1,001 Arabian Nights and mythology collections are excellent choices. Mark E. Rogers has some great books (with some on-the-spot parental editing).
2. Play "gateway" games like the Haunting of Hill House or Dungeon with the kids and with other adults. Sponsor gaming nights at your house.
3. Put on one-shot demo RPG games for friends and close family members.
4. Do some volunteer work with kids and use abbrieviated versions of RPGs.
5. Most of all, I would use games that encourage folks to engage their imaginations.
Check out this WWW site that tells the early part of a campaign story that I ran in the late 90s with three kids 8-11 years old and four adults 26-42 years old:
The game had combat in it, but there were whole sessions where we never took out a battlemat. We used second edition AD&D, RuneQuest, and sometimes Role-master rules. All those gaming systems shared the feel of trying to recreate a fantasy world that you could imagine.
IMHO, D&D 4.0 has a difficult time effectively competing with WOW, because D&D 4.0 really is very close to a table top version of WOW.
We can increase the number of tabletop RPG players, but we probably need to use a multi-pronged approach and use some of the established, imagination based gaming systems.
Hail Paizo!
In service,
Rich
Labyrinth Lord and the Swords & Wizardry Oe clone are both good for introduction.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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There's also always stealth. (Note these tactics work best if you look mostly harmless, are female, or have kids of your own. Too many people look at me funny when I say "I'll keep the attention of the 6-10 year olds while the adults have fun.")
Halloween parties: If you can handle 6-8 kids, making pre-gens having minis/dice/maps ready you can teach them a new way to 'tell a ghost story'
Birthday parties: Do something similar. Have a boxed/introduction set ready as a 'surprise' birthday gift when you have 'em hooked.
Other events: I ran D&D 3x for some kids at free comic book day. They all got to keep their sheets and miniatures, and I declared a 'winner' who got some dice. Her mom was kind of shocked, since she played D&D 'as a kid' and the daughter was happy that mom played once. (Aside: The girls were rolling better than the boys, so it was funny watching the high fives and 'girl power' cries)
The family that slays together stays together. Even better than luring the kids in is when you can lure the parents too. Kids love parent/child interaction, and there are various ways to make it easier for the parent (modules or starter sets) and who doesn't grin when the child goes "Can I DM Daddy?"
School clubs: Again, this requires kids of your own (calling them 'bait' is bad form) If you have a son or daughter who games, offer to help out with a 'gamers and stratigists club' The school might even cover expences too.
Social Interaction: I've introduced a couple people to gaming by taking them along to a gaming/venting/getting together session. "Come for teh conversation, stay for the gaming" is a valid trick.
I kind of wish I had started some of my real-life group off with Swords and Wizardry. It's ace.
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I actually got got hooked in to D&D from reading choose your own adventures. Interplanetary spy was my series as a kid - I loved it. From there I read "time machine" series and then onto Fighting Fantasy. Then the red box.
Only after playing D&D and then reading the AD&D players guide I got into high fantasy novels. I have to say that the points of kids reading as a catalyst is a good point.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I believe that an organized play program like the Pathfinder Society is a great way to grow the hobby by supporting a player and GM network as well as a built-in environment in which to fraternize with other players and hook up with like-minded players for home games.
I think a lot of the changes from 3.5 to 4e represent an attempt by Wizards of the Coast to standardize the rules of the game and make it more interesting to more casual players as well as younger players raised in the era of video games. They are the industry leader and the ones who can afford to sink millions of dollars into new player acquisition, so this design strategy makes sense, and may serve to widen the demographics of gamers across the board (even while alienating a significant cadre of the core 3.5 audience).
I think, so far as Pathfinder is concerned, that there is a certain onus on the publisher to produce a low-cost "here's the deal" player intro supplement of some kind, preferably something that doesn't cost a lot and that's easy for a total, complete newbie to understand. Getting the core rules set down within the traditional 3.5 context was the first priority for us with Pathfinder, but this type of introductory product is very much on the agenda.
And, you know, I think it helps to always try to make better books and come up with cooler ideas that grab people and keep them engaged in the game.
There is still the stigma that goes along with dnd. I am a 38 year old gamer who doesn't hide his love of the hobby. I get razed at work with the usual comments like: " Do you guys dress up like wizards" or " are you guys gay?", as if that has anything to do with playing dnd. Hell, even my children, mainly my 17 year old boy, considers dnd as for nerds. I have gotten a couple of people I work with to actually create pc's but when one of the guys heard the phrase role-play he freaked out.
As for the answer to the question of how do we reach new gamers, heck, I don't know, I was able to successfully recruit my 17 year old nephew into playing, so it is possible. And lately when I go to gaming stores I do see a lot of younger people, playing 3.5 or 4.0, so I know that is encouraging.
I am sure the MMO's have stolen some of our membership if you will, but we have always been a niche hobby, and to expect anything else I think is unrealistic.
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I just approach people with honesty and the same energy other guys use for sports, for example. By using that energy, I have found that most people will either politely say no or at least sit down and try it out. I have had much success "recruiting" this way. I have also found that if you are honest and upfront with what you do, they might talk behind your back, but most of the time they won't to your face.
I think, so far as Pathfinder is concerned, that there is a certain onus on the publisher to produce a low-cost "here's the deal" player intro supplement of some kind, preferably something that doesn't cost a lot and that's easy for a total, complete newbie to understand.
Something like Micro20 so you can jump into the story and not get bogged down in huge tomes of mechanics.
...Getting the core rules set down within the traditional 3.5 context was the first priority for us with Pathfinder, but this type of introductory product is very much on the agenda...
I personally think you guys are right on target with this idea, Erik. Please tell us more, if you can, at Paizocon. I imagine you've discussed how to get it out beyond the hardcore gamer distribution channels as well?
M(BTW I saw the Pathfinder Campaign Setting at B&N a couple of weeks ago! Had no idea you guys had distribution there.)
Not every aspect of gaming is going to appeal to everyone. I advertise that D&D is a very social game, something electronic media just doesn't have. D&D is also very personal. Bioware's games are fun, but they are not very personalized. You create unique characters, but the storyline is always the same. Pen & Paper RPGs are more fluid, dynamic. This is really the most brilliant part. Encourage players to make a story with you. That's how I sold to my newb group. They were creative people and liked that idea very much.
You can totally cheat and use pre-gen material. Try and personalize it by having dynamic NPCs who interact with the PCs. My players really like that, and it makes them feel like the game is about them.
Recently there was a huge train convention in Calgary. It was very successful because it advertised to everyone. The vendors and modelists were very friendly and had lots of demos and hands-on things. You could ask questions and not feel ashamed. I encourage vetrans to hold similar conventions, but on a smaller level. Come out at Club Week in college and show people D&D's dynamic side. We aren't freaks and weirdos, just creative people who enjoy living stories.
I think that neutral venues to game together are getting harder to find, and a potential new player can certainly be intimidated by a 500+ page tome. I know James Jacobs has put forth a very intriguing idea for a $20 introductory PFRPG book, which is a perfect price point to intro new people to the game.
The larger issue is how many of us actively go out and seek out new players? How many of us go to the local game store (if you've got one) and post a flyer? Go to the library/bookstore/etc and do the same thing? Something I have noticed over the years is this insular trend among gamers that seems to put down those that are not familiar with a product (or system), or assume that when somebody posts for the first time on a messageboard that they are a troll. Is this "us vs them" mentality really necessary? If the tabletop hobby is truly shrinking, then this attitude is precisely what will kill it utterly.
I do think the tools in the toolbox are changing, but at the heart of it, no matter the system, amount of funny shaped dice or widgets in front of you, it's still a couple of people getting together and having fun. Paving the way to get more people to do that does require some dedication (and time *shakes fist*), but in the case of rules-heavy games, I think it's best to start small, and with as little accoutrements as possible.
1.) Play a game where everybody gets a random role. Lupus in Tabula comes to mind. A game like this would help introduce the concept of taking on a role, of being an actor.
2.) Without ever looking at a rulebook, talk to your potential player(s) and find out the kinds of characters they like. Ask them about their favorite movies, books, TV shows, etc. Run a scenario, a quick background story with this nascent character of theirs.
3.) Introduce the rulebook - a small one please. Keep the character sheet really simple. Show the funny dice (if you're using a system that requires them).
4.) Play a few sessions with the Lite version. If they find they're liking it, then show them the full range of options they can have.
Above all, patience and a positive attitude, and none of the "This class sucks" or "Don't do that, take these three feats instead" etc, etc. The video game crowd is used to what you can't do - show them instead what they CAN do.
Don't forget the gateway drugs of the gaming world - CCGs and video games. If you know somebody that likes a card game, but hasn't played a tabletop game, use that to draw them in. Same with video games. If they like a particular setting, like the obvious WoW or the less-obvious Guild Wars, Halo, GTA or a more classic setting like Metroid, use that as well.
Or we could offer them some of Lilith's cookies.
I *did* mention gateway drugs...:P