The adventure says the party should be 6th level, minimum, before reaching the lower areas. To all DMs: that's an imperative, not a suggestion.
A party of four (5th level, with full hp and full resources) enters the compound via the gargoyles' tower, finds area D, knocks open the door, and descends to I4. Ghartok hears them coming down; when they emerge, the fighter walks into a full attack and dies instantly. The bard takes out the wives with a spell and moves to flank; the barbarian rages, swings, and misses; and the cleric casts spiritual weapon. Round two: Ghartok reduces the barbarian, extra rage hp and all, to -10 hp. Everyone misses him except the bard; cleric attempts to revive barbarian with a cure wounds and fails, because he's dead. Round three: Ghartok kills the bard. Cleric tries to heal bard, but fails to revive him, too, because he's also dead; spiritual weapon crits Ghartok -- a minor flesh wound. Round four: Ghartok kills the cleric. End of AP.
The moral of the story: if your group is 5th level and/or lacks a meteor swarm scroll, a couple of dozen wishes, and an army of high-level mercenaries, DO NOT LET THEM REMOVE THE ARCANE LOCK ON THE TOWER DOOR. Just don't. It's not a difficult fight; it's an absurd, very quick straight-up slaughter with absolutely no chance of survival whatsoever, and no chance to flee, either.
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Wow, that's brutal.
I think James Jacobs has suggested somewhere on the boards that the characters should be level 6 or 7 before facing the Carrion King (although obviously, if they find and use the minaret entrance they can get to him at 5th level), not sure what difference that would have made though.
Was he getting particularly good to hit or damage rolls (or the players poor ones) or is that pretty much the way it would have played out regardless of the luck of the dice?
I wonder if he would have waited and attacked first round as you described, or whether he would have tried to capture the PCS for sacrifice in the pit, or something?
Was he getting particularly good to hit or damage rolls (or the players poor ones) or is that pretty much the way it would have played out regardless of the luck of the dice?
The best AC in the party was the fighter's (AC 22), which was hard for him to miss. Everyone else had AC 17-18, which means he basisically can't miss unless he fumbles. And his damage output is just outrageous.
I wonder if he would have waited and attacked first round as you described, or whether he would have tried to capture the PCS for sacrifice in the pit, or something?
Having him attack non-lethally is a great idea -- it would drop his attack bonus a bit, and also prevent an instant TPK. Thanks! My goal with this thread isn't just to warn DMs, but also to provide a "toolbox" of options for dealing with it. Your suggestion makes perfect sense in-story, and works mechanically as well. Good show!
Another option I'm considering is to allow the characters a check to recognize that he was raging, and hint to the cleric (who has the Charm domain) that a calm emotions spell will end his rage, if he fails the Will save.
I have to ask, but would being 6th level made enough of a difference? Maybe the damage the party took was really close to not killing them/knocking them out, but a level's worth of hit points isn't that huge, and level 6 doesn't give any 4th level spells or anything.
It seemed like, at 6th, a full attack would have knocked the fighter out rather than killing him outright, so the cleric could have brought him back into the fight -- and he'd have 2 attacks/rd. instead of one (not that an attack at -5 would have any chance of hitting!) at that point.
With optimized characters, at 6th level you've got a number of 3rd level spells to fling around; displacement spells on the melee guys would sure have been a help. With a lot of multiclass characters, it's probably not enough, though.
Creative Director
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This is sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't type problem. There's a few other threads out there that are criticizing Pathfinder for being too "railroady," a claim I think is unfairly applied, since we do try to present a story with multiple options for resolutions.
Ghartok IS supposed to be a tough foe, though, and the way the adventure's set up, it's a bad idea to bypass the rest of the dungeon and go straight to the main bad guy. This is actually something that I try to build into most of the dungeon crawls we publish; I try to ensure they're not linear, but put in plenty of rewards for PCs who take their time and are careful and explore fully. There's a lot of places in the upper levels where a party can learn about Ghartok or recruit allies in thier fight against him, needless to say gain XP or gain magic items to help them in the fights to come.
That said, if you ARE running the adventure and the PCs are heading toward Ghartok or another encounter that'll destroy them immediately, you should give the PCs plenty of hints that they're heading into danger. Not allowing them to bypass the arcane lock's a good way to do that.
This is sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't type problem.
Yeah, I can see exactly what you mean. In this case, I was impressed enough at the "sandbox/multiple options" approach to play out a few possibilities ahead of time, which is why this thread came up. To a certain point, more options = better, even though they create a concurrent need for an increased "toolbox" of mitigation strategies. I figure, if Paizo keeps including the options, the community can contribute plenty of "what to do if..." ideas!
So far the list of possibilities includes (but is by no means limited to) the following:
If the PC's are captured, the adventure has a built in "ally" in the form of the mysterious stranger who sent them here in the first place. You might also allow the PC's to interact with some of the gnolls and somehow make friends.
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The other thing to consider is that Ghartok won’t just be waiting around in I4 for PCs to turn up for him to slaughter; he’s there sleeping or eating or cavorting with his wives, anyone of which activities is liable to see him distracted or inattentive, potentially allowing the PCs (if they show at least a bit of stealth) to get the drop on him. It may also mean that he does not have Goreshred in hand (though doubtless close by) and his armour may be partially or completely off.
The other thing to consider is that Ghartok won’t just be waiting around in I4 for PCs to turn up for him to slaughter; he’s there sleeping or eating or cavorting with his wives, anyone of which activities is liable to see him distracted or inattentive, potentially allowing the PCs (if they show at least a bit of stealth) to get the drop on him. It may also mean that he does not have Goreshred in hand (though doubtless close by) and his armour may be partially or completely off.
Yeah; I gave the characters a Stealth check, and the king an opposed Perception roll. After all, they're descending a metal ladder in full armor; auto-surprise against Ghartok seems a bit absurd.
This is sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't type problem. There's a few other threads out there that are criticizing Pathfinder for being too "railroady," a claim I think is unfairly applied, since we do try to present a story with multiple options for resolutions.
For what it is worth James, I don't think that Pathfinder, especially as it has become of late, is railroady at all. I personally feel you have struck a fantastic balance.
Sean Mahoney
A 6th level party that finishes off the gnolls in I1 quickly and has time to buff stands an even chance... although in my test run, (a) the cleric used calm emotions to end Ghartok's rage, and (b) the fighter (who had a shild other spell to keep him from instant death) managed to confirm crits with both attacks one round.
P.S. Ghartok, while raging, should attack at +18/+13 (2d6+17), or else 3-point Power Attack for +15/+10 (2d6+23). The stats given for him seem to include the -3 for Power Attack, but not the feat or spell damage bumps.
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*casts thread necromancy*
I am very concerned for the health of my players when they face Ghartok. I just can't see how they are going to deal with him...
Currently the party is as follows:
Human Cleric of Sarenrae
Human Bard
Human Rogue (should be an assassin by the time he gets to this stage)
Halfling Monk
The players are just about to enter the battle market. They have had tough fights against Moknokk, Halruun and the Geier. I foresee continued tough fights against Kezurkian, Kardswann and Xulthos (although the bard's countersong should help on the last one.)
Having said that I see no way that they can survive the monster that is Ghartok. A few hefty whacks and he will turn my party into little red stains...
If the party TPK against Kardswann I have a work around. Same for Xulthos. But if they wipe against the Carrion King then that puts the continued campaign in peril as the Carrion King will still be alive and the scroll will not be found.
I have already decided to replace the Human Bane quality of his axe with Keen instead. Does anyone have any suggestions about how to run or modify this encounter to give my PC's a chance?
You might want to add an NPC if you dont mind running on. The PCs could rescue a fighter type from the battle market. You could make him another one of the members of Oxvard and Felliped's group.
The battle with Ghartok is really rough. Because I had more than 4 characters and NPCs I added some additional Carrion guard, regular gnolls and a gnoll cleric of Rovagug. The gnolls were aware of the PCs and were waiting for them after losing several patrols to the PCs.
The party I was DMing was composed of:
Dwarven Barbarian (Died to Ghartok)
Human Paladin (was near death and saved by his high Smite AC)
Human Summoner (Eidolon was killed by Ghartok)
Human Sorcerer
NPC Oxvard human Cleric - killed by Ghartok
NPC - Felliped Human Bard
Dwarven druid/monk
After the battle I had Zayfid barter with them and sold them a resurection scroll (to bring back the dwarven barbarian who returned as a lizardman) in exchange for Ghartok's gear. This is an option to bring back PCs that fall during the battle.
Kelly
In general, I've found many TPKs come from the players not taking the situation seriously until round 2 when they realize the situation is already hopeless.
In the case of an uber opponent like Ghartok - make sure they know what they're up against. Take a cue from James Bond and have him narrate about his master plan (in this case which would probably be just "sacrifice them to Rovagug", but play it up!). And create your own boxtext description to really drive things home. Personally, I would end the narration with something along the lines of "your bones shake from the noise as he leans his head back, letting out a powerful yell: the Howl of the Carrion King." to remind the players that this is the enemy that they've been psyching up for for the past 2 books!
A little planning, a little extra daring, and willingness to burn every resource imaginable can go a long way.
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Thanks for your responses guys.
All useful stuff here. What I have decided to do is to send them in with some backup in the form of Felliped, Haleen and/or Oxvard. I have also statted Oxvard to be fond of using Summon Monster spells to give ol' Garthok something else to aim at :).
I will play up the danger of Garthok. I have also prodded the PC's to take him seriously from a very early point.
Hopefully it will lead to a good fight but not an impossible one.
Thanks for your responses guys.
All useful stuff here. What I have decided to do is to send them in with some backup in the form of Felliped, Haleen and/or Oxvard. I have also statted Oxvard to be fond of using Summon Monster spells to give ol' Garthok something else to aim at :).
I will play up the danger of Garthok. I have also prodded the PC's to take him seriously from a very early point.
Hopefully it will lead to a good fight but not an impossible one.
My players have just about finished HoTCK. I plan on running some side quests before they begin this book which will introduce them to just how bad ass Ghartok is. Hopefully they will take the hints they will receive seriously.
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Something else that helps reinforce how scary Ghartok is: do what I accidentally did.
Off-handed remark right after initiative is rolled:
"What the... Did they just start adding abilities to this guy? What does... oh." *chuckle*My players immediately got worried, as they should've, and treated him as befits hit stature.
It's what I call an "Are you sure Gary?" moment after an infamous quote one of my GM's gave when running "Against the Giants"...
Finished HotCK on Saturday with a near party wipe on Xulthos. Haleen and the PC Cleric were brutally ripped to shreds and the rest of the party survived by playing possum and running away (mainly due to a lucky hideous laughter that managed to get through Xulthos' will save.)
Poor old Felliped has steadfastly refused to continue adventuring because he has almost been brutally murdered twice...
So the party will head into House of the Beast with Oxvard providing clerical duties and a new Sorceress NPC to accompany the party.
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So this weekend we finished House of the Beast.
Ghartok appeared, charged and missed. Then on the second round he used his fear inducing roar which only the fighter failed provoking an AOO which did 29 damage to the fleeing dwarf.
Ghartok didn't get a chance at a third round and instead got brutally stabbed to death...
So much for my fear of the Carrion King wiping my party huh? He got precisely 2 attacks off and did a measly 29 damage.
Frankly they had more of a problem with the Carrion Guard and Hyenadon's in the first fight than with the Carrion King himself.
Ah well, on to Katapesh.
We played this last night, we had just gained 6th level after clearing out most of the adventure. The party:
Human Fighter (Aldori Dueling Master) Primary Damage Dealer
Dwarven Fighter (Reach Weapons) Tank & Trip
Half Elven Cleric (Battle Healer)
Elven Sorceress (Fey Bloodline) Charm & Enchantment Control
After resting in the slave area (whom we had gained as allies) the Carrion King attacked us.
Wave one, four Unchosen, they died pretty easily.
Wave two, four Gnolls riding large a little more difficult but still went down.
Wave three, more Unchosen. Looks start to be exchanged between the players.
Wave four, a large Air elemental and the Carrion King. TPK. The large Air elemental used its whirlwind to mess with our formations, keep the cleric off guard, and prevent us from retreating. My fighter (the primary damage dealer) failed his fear save, then took 54 (out of 67) points of damage from the Carrion King in a single hit.
Our allies developed brain damage, doing everything possible to die quickly including leaving flanking positions, attacking piecemeal, and retreating out of healing range
Our enchantress was rendered ineffective by by the ever-present immunities the Gnolls possessed. The Dwarf tried to keep the Carrion King on the ground while we went after the the Elemental, in the end though we were overwhelmed.
Anyone else go through this ?
I would give each of them a cohort of their level, because AP isn't really made for 2 PCs and usually they'll be far beyond the level they're supposed to be and have an easier time due to their higher level spells.
This is sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't type problem. There's a few other threads out there that are criticizing Pathfinder for being too "railroady," a claim I think is unfairly applied, since we do try to present a story with multiple options for resolutions.
I think the problem is that D&D is railroady. It's a basic fact of any system that uses levels. You have two areas, one designed for level 5 characters, one for level 6 characters, so of course you're going to force players to do the level 5 area first then the level 6 area. If you want an adventure path that isn't railroady, paizo will have to start using a system like Savage Worlds.