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Why should I switch to Pathfinder? I started 3.5 only half a year before 4e came out. I'm not sick of 3.5 and like it alot. Why should I switch to Pathfinder? I guess part of that wants to find something besides 3.5 is that it is damn hard to find players for it now that everyone has jumped onto the Pathfinder/4e bandwagon.
I've heard of things getting simpler. What exactly? I see new skills like fly which I think is a pointless addition. Linguistics? There's also things like Challenge Bases to figure things out like grappling and such. Seems just as hassling and complex as 3.5 grapple.
Convince me if you'd like.
Why should I switch to Pathfinder? I started 3.5 only half a year before 4e came out. I'm not sick of 3.5 and like it alot. Why should I switch to Pathfinder? I guess part of that wants to find something besides 3.5 is that it is damn hard to find players for it now that everyone has jumped onto the Pathfinder/4e bandwagon.
I've heard of things getting simpler. What exactly? I see new skills like fly which I think is a pointless addition. Linguistics? There's also things like Challenge Bases to figure things out like grappling and such. Seems just as hassling and complex as 3.5 grapple.
Convince me if you'd like.
Honestly, I don't think it's necessary to convince you. 3.5 stands as a good game in it's own right. Pathfinder isn't necessarily a "better" game. It's really just addressing issues that players have noticed occurring in D&D once you add in the sum total of D&D content that's out there.
In other words, Pathfinder really just makes the core game work better with all the existing material out there. In addition, if you run across rules in 3.5 that are confusing, download the Pathfinder Beta PDF and see if those rules have been simplified or are more to your liking. It's really about what you want your game experience to be.
I've heard of things getting simpler. What exactly? I see new skills like fly which I think is a pointless addition. Linguistics?
Yeah, fly is a weird choice, and I suspect that it will be gone in the final game. One of those "pushing the envelope, see what we can do with the game" experiments they've been doing in the Beta. Take a look at the final book (or come here and ask once it's out) before making decisions based on the handful of weird things that are in.
The skill system is getting simpler. Gone is the whole class/cross-class skill system, where the maximum rank and cost per skill point depend on what classes you have and what class you are buying skills for right now.
Everyone who has created higher-level multiclassed characters in both systems can tell you what a godsent that is.
CMB (combat manoeuvre bonus) will replace the different mechanics for grapple, trip, disarm, bullrush, overrun. All you do is roll your CMB against a DC (right now, that's 15 + the enemy's CMB, but it's quite possible the 15 will be changed to 11, and if not, it's easy enough to adjust the number to your preference). If you succeed, you have done what you wanted.
No more remembering whether the manoeuvre in question was a touch attack followed by an opposed strength check or whether you roll opposed attack rolls, or whether you go ahead and roll strength against each other right away...
Multiclassing also never incurs XP penalties any more. No more calculations to determine whether the current setup means you'll need extra XP to advance, complete with a total rework of hte XP chart for you.
And if you're behind the screen, the XP chart is now independant of the character's levels again. No need to cross-reference party (or individual player) level to CR and all that. (And there's now three charts for different advancement speeds)
Those are among the greatest examples of how the game was made simpler.
Another reason was to attempt to give all the classes more options, and give classes that have been weak a bit more of a punch. Those changes include the elimination of "empty levels".
For example, sorcerers now get a lot more abilities than just "familiar". They can also now choose among a number of "bloodlines" to indicate the nature of their supernatural/magical ancestor (or, alternately, if you don't like that flavour, what kind of power influences your character the most. Never fear, there's a neutral "arcane" bloodline as well).
In the end, if you don't think you need the new rules, you don't have to get them. PFRPG will be compatible with 3e, so you can use core rules, supplements, campaign settings, accessories and modules interchangeably.
But PF has one advantage: You can just walk into a store and buy it (well, not yet, but you will be able to when it's released this August). 3e/3.5e aren't produced any more, which makes it hard to get extra rulebooks.
One thing I have noticed since I started using PF rules instead of 3.5e rules: Several of the races and classes that hardly ever saw some action are now more common.
In fact, our party powergame played a bard. And I can tell you that's quite a ringing endorsement: If he plays it, and for more than a session before he becomes bored, it's a decent, viable class.
For me, it's not a matter of switching. I'll use the bits I like from 3.5 and I'll use the bits I like from Pathfinder.
In general, I agree with the stream here that says, You don't need convincing, keep playing what you like. That said, I think that if you look further into CMB and skill consolidation, it is something new to learn, but it simplifies things such that on the making-things-easier balance it is worth the learning. While I like these, my personal favorite reason to convert is Sorcerer Bloodlines. The Beta's free--download and take a read, if you haven't already.
As far as sticking with 3.5 and using Paizo products, there's lots of folks that say they're not even bothering doing the minimum conversions and they're getting away with it, so I assume that would work in reverse too.
Just two coppers.
Add my agreement to the general way everybody has answered the question. 3.5 is fine system, use if that's your cup of tea. Nothing I have to say will nor should change your mind. For me Pathfinder is more along the lines of an additon of options to 3.x. Using 3.0, in 3.5 and adding other ogl stuff including Beta rules have really been easy. Conversion gets down to two things.
1. are you going to play the race/class whatever if so convert to the rule set your playing.
2. is the race/class whatever going to be a major bady and not just the monster of the week, if so convert.
Hograth has it right, take what you like. I've added a modifed version of conan dodge and parry rules, while keeping the importance of AC. So take what you like from the Pathfinder ruleset. Really all role players fall into one of three basic categories.
1. thouse who like a rule set for a game and don't change it at all. They may or may not play a lot of other game, but generally they don't houserule.
2. Those like me who love to take what I want, houserule it to fit, and add into my game. While rules lite systems are better for this I've found that the nature of the OGL has allowed 3.x to be very good at this. I mean by its vary nature ogl allows people to add rule ideas to the core game.
3. the actual players who in many cases just want to play.
Whats really nice about Pathfinder is the CMB, in general 3.5 is a little more ehm 'realistic' in how they do all these things, but good lord is CMB so much easier and quicker, that by itself will have be buy the book. Moreover if you are a GM I'll point out that the new skill system is so much better in terms of running the game, character creation, and leveling up. The skill system for 3.5 was the hardest thing to learn for my players, and the thing that gave me the most fustration because I had to re-explain it over and over again to middle aged adults. I recently had a game with some kids of about 8-10 years of age. I explained the new skill system once and they got it right away. On the other had I perfer the 3.5 skill list + a few more so that is a keeper.
As for fly, I kinda like Fly, I think the reasoning behind it was the fact that all Dragons of a typ and Age category mostly fly the same. If fly is a skill well you might get a Dragon that flies top heavy like Draco in Dragonheart, but you also might get a supersonic Dragon like the one in Dragonslayer (I forget if that Dragon had a name).
Like KaeYoss the best endorsement about the new classes comes from the players. In my case I've had a guy always play a Elven Barbarian up to level four, then multi-class into a Fighter for the feats. Under Bata printed rules he like the new Barbarian so much he just stayed with it. Personally the Sorcerer finally fits my concept of the Sorcerer. No longer is the Sorcerer just the class for a martial character who wants some Arcane options without all the work of a Wizard.
Whatever you decided, I wish you a great game.
TTFN Dre
P.S. damn that was a lot of copper.
A good cropper of copper, actually.
I hate to repeat, but take this as a popular view.
At my table, Pathfinder is an optional rules manual for 3.5.
When the book is released, it may become the default ruleset, but only because it is more convenient to play a game that is currently in print.
Functionally, there isn't enough difference between the systems for me to consider it a "switch". You're using all the same books, there are mostly cosmetic changes. If you're happy with your game as it stands, don't change anything, and only pick up Pathfinder RPG if you are interested in a thoroughly playtested optional rules manual.
I wonder if we would be justified in saying, "the most play-tested version of the rules book"?
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I wonder if we would be justified in saying, "the most play-tested version of the rules book"?
I imagine this is probably true.
As for the OP's request: I have to concur with most of the opinions expressed in this thread. A few of the selling points for me:
- CMB
- consolidated skills
- improved skill selection system
- class improvements
- removal of XP costs
Just download the Beta and see if the rules can convince you. That's what happened at my table and already we would rather play Pathfinder over D&D 3.5. (Not that the differences are all that big--I'm running RotRL without significant changes.)
Really all role players fall into one of three basic categories.
1. thouse who like a rule set for a game and don't change it at all. They may or may not play a lot of other game, but generally they don't houserule.
2. Those like me who love to take what I want, houserule it to fit, and add into my game. While rules lite systems are better for this I've found that the nature of the OGL has allowed 3.x to be very good at this. I mean by its vary nature ogl allows people to add rule ideas to the core game.
3. the actual players who in many cases just want to play.
4. Those who use different game systems for different campaigns, depending on how the strengths and weaknesses of the game system match up with the setting and style of play desired. Just sayin'.
Use the system that does what you want it to do (with or without house-rules, supplements, etc.).
Things I love that I didn't see mentioned (but I may have missed it):
Clerics turn undead now just deals damage to undead. So now a Cleric 2/Bard 5 still has a useful Turn Undead ability.
Fighters get more than just bonus feats; they get bonuses to their attacks and AC.
Gnomes make good Bards since they get a CHA bonus.
Elves make good Wizards since they get an INT bonus and can penetrate SR better.
Races are adjusted so that they are the equivilent of +1 LA races, so if you want to play a +1 race from anywhere in 3E, you need no adjustment to play it.
But its single best advantage to a 3E staying group (as previously mentioned) is as a set of optional rules. If you prefer the Pathfinderized PHB races and want to steal the cleric's version of turn undead, its easy to do.
(Plus, if your 3e group breaks up at some point in the future and can only find a Pathfinder group, you already have the book.)
As you can see, most people aren't interested in doing the hard-sell here. Feel free to kick the tires, take it for a test drive, and switch (whole or in part) if you like it.
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As you can see, most people aren't interested in doing the hard-sell here. Feel free to kick the tires, take it for a test drive, and switch (whole or in part) if you like it.
Totally agree here. Any game system is only as good as you think that it is. If Pathfinder is for you then I don't think it will take much to convince you if you like 3.5. If Pathfinder isn't for you, then you'll figure that out pretty quick I think.
Anyways, good gaming!
Regards,
StudPuffin
Why should I switch to Pathfinder? I started 3.5 only half a year before 4e came out. I'm not sick of 3.5 and like it alot. Why should I switch to Pathfinder? I guess part of that wants to find something besides 3.5 is that it is damn hard to find players for it now that everyone has jumped onto the Pathfinder/4e bandwagon.
I've heard of things getting simpler. What exactly? I see new skills like fly which I think is a pointless addition. Linguistics? There's also things like Challenge Bases to figure things out like grappling and such. Seems just as hassling and complex as 3.5 grapple.
Convince me if you'd like.
First off, I agree with prior posters :) If you enjoy what you're playing, no need to switch. All the goodies coming out are compatible with 3.5, so you can use modules and APs and any of the rest as you like without needing the master rules.
But, if you really want to be convinced ::chuckle::
1) Availability of rules for you and any new players -- much easier to find once August comes out, and will remain easy to buy, long after the prices for the hardcover 3.5 books are going thru the roof on ebay and such. This could be a big one, depends on your group and how many books you own and feel are needed around the table.
2) Skills have been combined downward in a pretty logical manner (though I know of a lot of houseruled bits already from reading the boards). Also, elimination of cross-class skills makes life a LOT easier for checking points, spending them, and most especially for the GM that is trying to make up NPCs.
3) Fly is kinda strange, I agree, but is used for folks that get wings or spells that give them long term flight and want to do more difficult things -- like most folks can ride, but not many can joust or fight from horseback without the skill.
4) Linguistics is an easy way for characters to gain new languages after creation, and it also incorporates deciphering unknown languages and detecting and creating forgeries.
5) The grappling rules are, from my experience, MUCH simpler in pfRPG. Everyone has a figured CMB on their character sheet, just like a melee attack or ranged attack ... so you roll, add CMB to set mods, and compare to the opponents CMB plus set mods ... much easier.
Those are in answer to your specific comments above, and are one gamer/gm's opinion of the new rules. Check out the free download of the Beta rules, keep your 3.5 handy since anything not in the Beta is as it was in 3.5, and see if you like :)
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The biggest reason, which only comes into play if you're dealing with new players, is finding Pathfinder will be easier than finding 3.5 books. As oft repeated here, there is no real reason to change, however if you end up dealing with new players who would most likely only be able to get ahold of Pathfinder you won't have many problems getting everyone a copy of the book(s). It's always nice when everyone is on the same page when it comes to rules, by everyone owning the same books, but that's just a mater of personal taste as well.
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Convince me if you'd like.
Having only jumped on the 3.x bandwagon around three or so years ago, I think I know where you're coming from. Thus, if you like 3.x, stick with it. You'll just have to work a little harder to 1) get players (as you said, many are switching to either 4E or PfRPG or -- rarely -- both) and 2) getting the 3.x books. Especially the Core books. Recommend used book stores and ebay. Note they're not legally available in pdf format anymore.
Enjoy! :)
Clerics turn undead now just deals damage to undead. So now a Cleric 2/Bard 5 still has a useful Turn Undead ability.
Not to mention that, as positive energy, it also heals living creatures now. That means that clerics will get some use out of channel even if the campaign never has a single undead (so you won't have to beg your GM to keep using undead ;-)) It also frees up some healing, so the cleric will be able to use more of his spells for what they're actually prepared as, rather than turning them into healing.
It also rewards clerics whith better charisma (which I think is important for a priest, anyway, and it's nice that the game supports this more). It means they're getting better and more versatile at healing people, but at the same time, they're no longer quite as good with the pure offensive stuff.
The offensive part is more generally true as well: They're no longer quite as good at supplanting fighters in the fighter role. Combined with strengthened warrior classes this means things look more like they should.
Fighters get more than just bonus feats; they get bonuses to their attacks and AC.
Yeah. Fithters still have the same role: Fighters fight. They're not really good at anything else (though it's a bit better than before, since you can be better at cross-class stuff now, and due to consolidated skills, you can make your skill points last longer. Plus, with more feats than before, they can better afford using feats for non-combat things now).
But they've just become a lot better at what they do.
3) Fly is kinda strange, I agree, but is used for folks that get wings or spells that give them long term flight and want to do more difficult things -- like most folks can ride, but not many can joust or fight from horseback without the skill.
You know what? You're right! I haven't really seen it from that angle, but it really is a lot like ride: It's nothing you can do all by yourself, and it will often be useless (since you can't ride in a narrow, low dungeon corridor, or in a lot of other places where adventures happen for that matter), but the skill isn't necessary to do that stuff casually, either.
But if you really want to invest in this special form of movement during combat, you can do so.
Other, more modern games (contemporary or future/science-fiction games) also have different skills/abilities for different modes of movement (there's usually ride, drive, pilot, often with specialties like feats required to apply some of those skills to certain types of conveyances.)
4) Linguistics is an easy way for characters to gain new languages after creation, and it also incorporates deciphering unknown languages and detecting and creating forgeries.
It is weird, though, in that it has the side effect of turning them all into polyglots. But then again, languages in D&D aren't exactly realistic to begin with (see the ease with which to gain new languages even in 3e). I wonder if they can come up with something that better reflects this, but if not, I won't lose any sleep over it.
One thing I have noticed since I started using PF rules instead of 3.5e rules: Several of the races and classes that hardly ever saw some action are now more common.
In fact, our party powergame played a bard. And I can tell you that's quite a ringing endorsement: If he plays it, and for more than a session before he becomes bored, it's a decent, viable class.
Bah!
Now you've gone too far, sir.
Too far I say!
Bah!Now you've gone too far, sir.
Too far I say!
I tells em as I sees em.
Ah yes...channel energy!
If we're all giving specific rules to switch to:
#1 Channel Energy
#2 Sorcerer Bloodlines
#3 Simplified skills
#4 Combat Maneuvers
#5 New Polymorph spells
Taking a slightly different approach, there are things I don't like at all about the new system (Fly skill, Arcane Schools, Domains, and a few more) but they don't add up to a reason not to "switch". I already draw heavily on optional rules and house rules for my 3.5 game. The new rules from Pathfinder that are good are easy to implement, and the bad ones are trivial to revert to 3.5. They are that similar.
Taking a slightly different approach, there are things I don't like at all about the new system (Fly skill, Arcane Schools, Domains, and a few more) but they don't add up to a reason not to "switch". I already draw heavily on optional rules and house rules for my 3.5 game. The new rules from Pathfinder that are good are easy to implement, and the bad ones are trivial to revert to 3.5. They are that similar.
That's pretty much where I am. I'll pick out the bits I don't like (e.g. nerfed grapple/trip/power attack, Perception skill) and revert them to the 3.5 version.
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As you can see, most people aren't interested in doing the hard-sell here. Feel free to kick the tires, take it for a test drive, and switch (whole or in part) if you like it.
I agree with Veector on this. I am a big advocat for Pathfinder RPG, however, it is built on OGL and v.3.5. My players have played Alpha, now Beta, and will play the full Pathfinder RPG in August. That said, there are a handful of marvelous enhancements and tweaks worth incorporating into your game. My recommendation is to pick up SORD Plus for Pathfinder from RPG now, etc. There you can see in perfect conciseness exactly what improvements have been made. The document costs less than 2 bucks, and skinnys down the Beta for your players.
I play in a v.3.5 game monthly, and run a Pathfinder game weekly. However, I am also open to running a first edition game from time to time as is my want, using the OSRIC 2.0 system.
I would say that if you discovered v.3.5 this year.... enjoy it! It is a marvelous, sophisticated, dungeons and dragons game system. As long as you're having fun - that's what matters. If you're trying to gain some efficiencies and improve a few areas of v.3.5, then Pathfinder is unquestionably the way to go.
Good luck.
-Pax-
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One other thing.................... because wotc has abandoned us, the players of v.3.5, in a very real way by no longer keeping that system in print or creating new materials, I would check out Pathfinder so you can ostensibly continue buying and enjoying new "third-edition-style" game materials via the Pathfinder Role-playing game.
Again, even if you don't select this option, you can continue enjoying v.3.5 for many long years to come. There is so very much still available such as the adventure paths 1 thorugh 24 from PAZIO, plus also about 20 modules to select from that are newly written for v.3.5 over this past year and a half.
Additionally, you could enjoy Ptolus, check out Necromancer games' Tome of Horrors series 1-3 (these are fantastic!), or you can just homebrew - which is the most yummy kind of gaming imo. Have fun!