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From EN World:
I know 3.5 High level rules were not the best, but how many of you got to this revelation after playing any of the Paizo's APs? How many of you gave up on 3.5 shortly after that?
Did Paizo actually helped a lot of people move to 4E?
(PS I love and I am currently running AOW under 4E)
How...bizarre. What was this person smoking?!?
Something that was highly flammable.
Of course, I'm sure that folk never post something that is just created for maximal pot-stirring.
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I agree with this guy:
Those over the top, very maximized, near impossible end battles can be easily toned down to a more appropriate level of difficulty.
Should they be tough? Sure. Should they have the potential for character deaths? Sure.
Should they be TPK with little chance of survival? No.
I never understood the " DM versus players" mentality some groups have. I've read about and watched games where TPK resulted with the DM simply shrugging their shoulders and saying "that's what the module said." Or that dice are not fair. This isn't chess; this is suppose to be a shared experience.
I have always liked the thought of adventure paths and over time I think they have gotten much better. But truth be known I much prefer a set of modules all set within the same region but leaving areas outside that region for the Gm to expand. Campaign Arcs did that much better and though I understand that the likelihood of Paizo doing such it doesn't keep me from wanting more. Hmm maybe I should just make some myself and then I have the type of books I want.
That's funny. 4e was only a glimmer in the designer's eyes at the time the AP started.
To be fair, Shackled City was brutal, and built for a group of 6 who worked together rather than being a group of individuals. It could be very easy for any sort of combination of the various "issues" new gamers often have to get frustrated with Shackled City. Attention span, never retreating due to video game rpg conditionion, not working together, etc, etc.
To nitpick, the quoted material says Shackled City, but the title implies all APs. Definitely smells of pot stirring to me, either that or sloppy writing.
To me, giving up on 3rd edition after experiencing something unfun in one campaign (made by someone else) seems like giving up on eating fast food in general after one restaurant forgot to hold the mayonaisse.
My overall response to this is Meh.
Hmmm. The smurfy fires of edition flamewars look to me to be still burning bright over there.
James Jacobs has been posting over on the EN World thread in question, so Paizo are aware of the situation and keeping abreast of developments; I'm really not sure that talking about that thread here can serve any peaceful purpose.
Edit:
Hmmm. The smurfy fires of the edition flamewars look to me to be still burning bright over there.
James Jacobs has been posting over on the EN World thread in question, so Paizo are aware of the situation and keeping abreast of developments; I'm really not sure that talking about that thread here can serve any peaceful purpose.
Absosmurfly
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According to this article:
"Nope, what made many of those ultra-deadly encounters tough was that each author felt obliged to come up with unique, compelling, and integrated encounters. They felt that, to do the campaign justice, they needed to make the most of their encounters, using a combination of monsters working together with terrain in an elegant, symbiotic, and often fatal, dance. In many ways, they were following the 4th Edition encounter design philosophy—using monsters, traps, and terrain all together in a wonderful stew—before 4th Edition was even a glimmer in anyone’s eye. Kudos to those authors!"
So it seems what made SCAP so lethal was made a defining element of 4E.
There ya go. At the word of Wizards, all we be settled.
Salami...baloney...pastrami...
Edit: (On point) Using all those elements in a stew...hmm...
It could be very easy for any sort of combination of the various "issues" new gamers often have to get frustrated with Shackled City. Attention span, never retreating due to video game rpg conditionion, not working together, etc, etc.
Wow. Am I the only one who routinely runs away in CRPGs, then? ;p
/threadjack
I agree with this guy:
I never understood the " DM versus players" mentality some groups have. I've read about and watched games where TPK resulted with the DM simply shrugging their shoulders and saying "that's what the module said." Or that dice are not fair. This isn't chess; this is suppose to be a shared experience.No offense to anyone, but I wouldn't blame Paizo for this...I'd blame the DM's. As a DM you have to know what your players can handle, and what constitutes a balanced or tough encounter for them. (and when to recognize an impossible encounter).
Those over the top, very maximized, near impossible end battles can be easily toned down to a more appropriate level of difficulty.
Should they be tough? Sure. Should they have the potential for character deaths? Sure.
Should they be TPK with little chance of survival? No.
Sorry Joela, but large section of text flashing a link is hard on my eyes. The above is a slightly better format.
I agreed with the poster on ENWorld and I agree with it again. I can certainly see someone FEELING that the APs are to blame, but Paizo just followed the rules of what makes a good adventure. A DM that expects something off the shelf to be optimized for his/her group is sadly mistaken. If that means weakening Orcus because no one has a BAB greater than 12 or spells above 6th level, than that's what it means.
If you're driving a nail into a board and you strike your thumb with a hammer, is it the hammer's fault? No. You should have not been so careless. You might be mad at the hammer. You might want to blame the hammer. But it is not the hammer's fault that you're an idiot.
So yes, I did compare Lisa's company to a hammer. So then ... who is the analogus to Dr Horrible?
A Rpg is never any better than the gamemaster running it.
A Rpg is never any better than the gamemaster running it.
QFT
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JOELA - I AM ABOUT SICK OF THIS S*&!.
Earlier in the week you were b$*&@ing about an email communication PAIZO sent that you thought meant the company wasn't doing so well. At the end of that OP by you, you mentioned 4e. Now again, you're bringing this crap in here?!
I'm calling you out on it. Head yourself over to the 4e threads since that's where your passive-agressive posts belong.
Wow. Am I the only one who routinely runs away in CRPGs, then? ;p/threadjack
No, but depending on the game, if there's a recent save point, you might as well suffer the kill and reload. You may get lucky and, chances are, retreating and recovering takes less time than reloading from the saved game.
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I'm calling you out on it. Head yourself over to the 4e threads since that's where your passive-agressive posts belong.
I'm here. What do you want to say? And before you start ranting I'm a so-called "4E crusader", please note I am 100% in support the Pathfinder RPG and the OGL. Check my profile.
Back to the topic....
Re: DMs. I agree. Response to the original article seems to put the onus the 3.x system, that Paizo was simply working with the system it was given. Several posts then discuss the DM's responsibility to adjust scenarios appropriately. Counter-argument, of course, is that published modules are suppose to be played "as is" since folks buy them to make gaming easier.
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Sorry Joela, but large section of text flashing a link is hard on my eyes. The above is a slightly better format.
Sorry, DMcCoy16393. I'll just refer to a link to the original post next time instead of making the entire snippet link.
I agreed with the poster on ENWorld and I agree with it again. I can certainly see someone FEELING that the APs are to blame, but Paizo just followed the rules of what makes a good adventure. A DM that expects something off the shelf to be optimized for his/her group is sadly mistaken. If that means weakening Orcus because no one has a BAB greater than 12 or spells above 6th level, than that's what it means.
If you're driving a nail into a board and you strike your thumb with a hammer, is it the hammer's fault? No. You should have not been so careless. You might be mad at the hammer. You might want to blame the hammer. But it is not the hammer's fault that you're an idiot.
So yes, I did compare Lisa's company to a hammer. So then ... who is the analogus to Dr Horrible?
I like how Paizo, when it ran Dungeon magazine, always included level adjustment side notes. I once posted here in the forums if Paizo would consider doing the same for its Pathfinder mods, but Eric(?) said that the company couldn't foresee gaming group's campaigns and rightly put the responsibility back in the DM's court.
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Hmmm. The smurfy fires of edition flamewars look to me to be still burning bright over there.
James Jacobs has been posting over on the EN World thread in question, so Paizo are aware of the situation and keeping abreast of developments; I'm really not sure that talking about that thread here can serve any peaceful purpose.
Edit:
Oh! Thanks, Charles. I haven't seen them yet. I'll check it out.
It seems that I lock horns with the same people over there over and over again. Maybe I need to add to my ignore list...
It seems that I lock horns with the same people over there over and over again. Maybe I need to add to my ignore list...
Paizo's messageboards have an ignore list? O.o
Sorry, DMcCoy16393. I'll just refer to a link to the original post next time instead of making the entire snippet link.
Thank you. Much, much appreciated.
Paizo's messageboards have an ignore list? O.oIt seems that I lock horns with the same people over there over and over again. Maybe I need to add to my ignore list...
No, no, no. ENWorld. The place with the ongoing discussion that inspired this thread.
No, no, no. ENWorld. The place with the ongoing discussion that inspired this thread.Paizo's messageboards have an ignore list? O.oIt seems that I lock horns with the same people over there over and over again. Maybe I need to add to my ignore list...
Ah, okies - for a minute there I was wondering when I missed out ... :)
Are we in Paizo or ENWorld messageboards ?
The communities are different, as the attitude and the topics.
I don't see the need for referencing other forums here, especially if it is to start forum wars...
As Seldriss speaks, the strains of the Battle Hymn of the Republic swell in the background, the choir humming, and the drums accenting his words.
No, no, no. ENWorld. The place with the ongoing discussion that inspired this thread.Paizo's messageboards have an ignore list? O.oIt seems that I lock horns with the same people over there over and over again. Maybe I need to add to my ignore list...
Strange. You quote Turin the Mad, and yet I can still see your quote. I put him on my ignore list a while ago. I think I shouldn't see his name in your post either.
And a wondrous innovation that was. I did the same...but I guess it can't hide everything.
What a load of nonsense. And yes, that is not the choice of words I'd actually use.
Unless you use the standard assumptions the system does, you might have to do some tweaking in a published adventurer. That's true in every RPG, not just 3e.
And even if AoW or SC sucked, that wouldn't mean that 3e sucks. Sometimes, a crappy adventure is just a crappy adventure.
Urgh, I want my 20 minutes back. Why do I even bother going over to that site? I swear, I thought the flame wars were bad here. Oooh 3E broke up my marraige and kicked my dog!
All I read is 10 pages of sour grapes that amounts to nothing constructive. I think the demarcation lines have already been pretty well drawn. Certain folks like 3E, certain folks like 4E. No amount of system bashing is going to change anyone's mind.
I'll just sit back in the choir and listen to the preaching from now on, I'll be less insulted that way. Why give Enworld more click thrus?
I guess that I can see where the guy is coming from, but only if Shackled City was his first (or near that) time with 3.5. I actually had a similar experience with Keep on the Shadowfell. It was my first experience with 4th ed and I thought it was pretty mediocre. I was ready to suck it up and just run the whole thing anyway, but then I discovered Pathfinder (through a link on the WoTC boards ironically) and picked up Burnt Offerings. It was like night and day. I scrapped the 4th ed game, we rolled up new characters and started RotRL the next week. Since then, I've played in a couple of one shot games of 4th ed and found that I actually like it. So I think that this is pretty indicative of how a bad first impression or an adventure that isn't for you, can spoil your view of a game. After all, there are a lot of good games out there, if you have a bad time with one, there isn't much to stop you from checking out something different.
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Urgh, I want my 20 minutes back. Why do I even bother going over to that site? I swear, I thought the flame wars were bad here. Oooh 3E broke up my marraige and kicked my dog!
All I read is 10 pages of sour grapes that amounts to nothing constructive. I think the demarcation lines have already been pretty well drawn. Certain folks like 3E, certain folks like 4E. No amount of system bashing is going to change anyone's mind.
I'll just sit back in the choir and listen to the preaching from now on, I'll be less insulted that way. Why give Enworld more click thrus?
I love EN World. Love it love it love it. Because every time someone around here starts talking about how "bad" the edition wars have gotten, I can just think about how it could be EN World instead, and everything is okay again...
Let's say that I have experienced something similar that the post quoted in OP, but I didn't draw the same conclusions. I came to notice that for the gaming style I and many people I played with preferred, the level recommendations in Dungeon adventures were too low. So we just changed them. For the most cases, problem solved.
I love EN World. Love it love it love it. Because every time someone around here starts talking about how "bad" the edition wars have gotten, I can just think about how it could be EN World instead, and everything is okay again...
Well, every time I follow some link posted to something on that site I get to see dozens of folks writing about how stupid and broken 3E/Pathfinder is and how stupid and broken the folks sticking with 3E/Pathfinder are. Doesn't really make me believe they are an oasis of peace and love. Meh, I've got better things to do with my time. You like it, by all means more power to you. I am personally not going to frequent it anymore. I'm sure they will do fine without me. I'm really tired of this edition wars crapola.
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Well, every time I follow some link posted to something on that site I get to see dozens of folks writing about how stupid and broken 3E/Pathfinder is and how stupid and broken the folks sticking with 3E/Pathfinder are. Doesn't really make me believe they are an oasis of peace and love. Meh, I've got better things to do with my time. You like it, by all means more power to you. I am personally not going to frequent it anymore. I'm sure they will do fine without me. I'm really tired of this edition wars crapola.
I love EN World. Love it love it love it. Because every time someone around here starts talking about how "bad" the edition wars have gotten, I can just think about how it could be EN World instead, and everything is okay again...
Sorry. That was irony, man. I mean, I love EN World because it helps me remember what a lovely thing we got going on here.
Sorry. That was irony, man. I mean, I love EN World because it helps me remember what a lovely thing we got going on here.Well, every time I follow some link posted to something on that site I get to see dozens of folks writing about how stupid and broken 3E/Pathfinder is and how stupid and broken the folks sticking with 3E/Pathfinder are. Doesn't really make me believe they are an oasis of peace and love. Meh, I've got better things to do with my time. You like it, by all means more power to you. I am personally not going to frequent it anymore. I'm sure they will do fine without me. I'm really tired of this edition wars crapola.
I love EN World. Love it love it love it. Because every time someone around here starts talking about how "bad" the edition wars have gotten, I can just think about how it could be EN World instead, and everything is okay again...
LOL, sorry man. My irony detector is clogged with phlegm right now :)
As someone who was a player in the Shackled City AP when it first came out I can say you don't need an optimized group. We had only four player (and one cohort) and nobody really min/maxed. I will say the later adventures felt like a grind but the high level play of 3.5 always feels that way to me. Maybe the GM toned the AP down for us, but I doubt it since he is typically a by the book kinda guy. The AP's are agressive because of word count requirements and the idea of going from 1 -20 level. They are in no way an absolute definition of how 3.5 should be played. To me the switch to 4e based on one AP is a flawed conclusion.
Also, please notice that this entire post is one big link, which is the new ettiquette for the Paizo forums.
Bah.
After running several 3e campaigns that petered out around 7th to 10th level, I successfully ran the entirety of Age of Worms and the first half of Savage Tide in 3e. Now I'm running RotRL in 4E. My decision to switch editions has everything to do with my preferences in the game system design itself, and nothing at all to do with Paizo adventures.
(Although I'll admit, it was only through the APs that I was able to experience high level play and high level DMing, and so indirectly, the APs did allow me the opportunity to realize things about 3e that made it not the ideal system for me, personally, and for my group.)
In fact, my determination to stick with Paizo adventures despite my switch to 4E is much more valid as a measure of the incredible value of Paizo's adventures - and the OP's source post extrapolating from the first Paizo AP to all Paizo APs is pretty silly, to boot.
I will say the later adventures felt like a grind but the high level play of 3.5 always feels that way to me.
Yep. And if the DM spends more time fighting that feeling than he does running the game, then maybe, just maybe, high-level play in 3.5 needs to be examined a bit more carefully -- not just hand-waved with a blanket statement like "if the DM is good enough the rules can suck." Fine, OK, yes, a good DM can indeed compensate for some of the rules shortcomings -- but I feel that he shouldn't have to put quite so much work into it. Otherwise, just toss out the rules altogether and have DM story hour, and be done with it. Then 3e vs. 4e becomes meaningless, because it all defaults to "0e."
To put it another way, just because 4th edition doesn't look like I'd enjoy it too much, doesn't automatically imply that 3e is perfect. And a flawed system can be fixed -- rather than abandoned on the one hand, or put on a pedestal on the other. Blaming the DM for rules problems is absolutely appropriate for small things, but it's a bit nearsighted when dealing with broad system aspects (like most of high-level play) -- even if it's a lot easier than taking a careful look at what might be askew in the rules.
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4e is for people who can't handle an AP!!!
*runs*oh, and.....j/k!!!
4e is for people who like an adventure linked by battlemaps, I wonder if they've ever played Warhammer Quest... ;)
I have never said I thought 3e was perfect "just for the record", in addition, I'm sure I'll have houserules for Pathfinder also...
Especially lifting weapon speeds from Everquest RPG.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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In fact, my determination to stick with Paizo adventures despite my switch to 4E is much more valid as a measure of the incredible value of Paizo's adventures - and the OP's source post extrapolating from the first Paizo AP to all Paizo APs is pretty silly, to boot.
Thanks, Cintra! That is really great to hear. Your "sticking with us" is greatly appreciated.
4e is (by a considerable margin) not the game for me, but one of its best qualities, in my opinion, is that it's pretty easy to run conversions of adventures from other editions. In this regard, I'm always thrilled to hear about 4e players who continue to use our products.
I like turtles.
I have nothing of note to say I just wanted the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you contribute something to a truly worthwhile thread. :D
I buy paizo products for the fluff, not the crunch. And when it comes to fluff, Paizo cannot be beat.