Let me start by admitting that WAR has never been my favorite. He was okay, but he always seemed liked a "comic-y"* step back from Todd Lockwood (who's probably my all-time favorite, or maybe tied with Keith Parkinson). And I was a little uncertain about Paizo leaning so heavily on him when he was also defining 4e visually -- would Pathfinder have a distinct look, or would it blend on the shelf with 4e? But I didn't say much of anything because it kind of felt like sour grapes.
But I've been looking at WAR's recent works for Pathfinder. And I've been loving them. So this has me thinking: is WAR just growing on me? Is he improving? Or are the orders that Paizo is placing drawing a different look that WAR is also capable of producing?
I really don't think that it's just me. Instead, I think that either WAR was capable of the kind of art he's produced for the cover of Gods and Magic and The Great Beyond all along and I just didn't see it because people were placing more "comic-y" orders or he has significantly grown in his craft. Perhaps a part of that growth has been the kind of orders Paizo has been putting in and the kind of feedback they've given him. Perhaps there's even a cost dimension to this. But if this keeps up, maybe some day I'll have to revise my list favorites list, and I wouldn't mind that at all.
Am I the only person seeing a difference in WAR's work? What do you think?
*No slam against comics, I just am not sure what else to call it.
I've been a big fan of WAR's work since day one, but I see what you're saying - Wayne is steadily honing his craft with each new piece he submits to Paizo. I've been looking a lot at his art recently as well, and it struck me that one of the most appealing aspects of his latest art (more than his sense of action, which has always been a staple of WAR's art) is his amazing use of color. It just blends perfectly, and is vibrant without being garish. The cover of The Great Beyond is a perfect example of this.
I have never been particularly a fan of Wayne's work either. I find his creatures just don't look realistic (even in a fantasy sort of way). I don't mind cartoony pics but with a lot of Waynes work, even the humans and human-like creatures always seem to be contorted into all different weird ways that just seems so unnatural
However, I do agree that the work he has done for Pathfinder has been an improvement over a lot of his other stuff. I think a large part of that is that the most visible pieces (the portraits of the iconics on the first two APs) are characters posed in relatively static positions. The problem I referenced above seems to crop up most in action shots. Also, his action shots tend to be way too busy, in my opinion.
Overall, I would prefer to see Paizo lean more heavily on other artists.
Jokes about Picaso's Blue Period aside, don't make the mistake that an artist cannot evolve, change, or simply have more then one trick poney. Writers are more often placed in a box, fantasy, mystery, Sci-Fi, romance, ect. ect. but I've seen it happen to artist.
As for the comic booky style, I've always kinda enjoyed it, and WAR is good at that. However I'm a little unique in that art even very bad art rearely moves me one way or another in terms of game books. Nor will very good art make me want or like a book any greater.
TTFN DRE
I love WAR, alot.
But one thing that is of major note with him is that he is great at fitting his employers wants and desires, making him very good artist comercially. (Which is why I think thst his 4e stuff appeals to me alot less.)
And I'm glad of it, because nothing on the blog fills me with more excitement or love for paizo than new WAR covers.
I feel so-so about Wayne, though I do agree the last few covers have been good. I don't care for the human faces he creates, as they always seem a little too "comic-y" to me.
I would prefer Paizo go with someone like Parkinson or Komark. Someone with a more realistic and gritty feel.
With that said, I'm not unhappy with the artistic direction.
Best.
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I love Wayne Reynolds artwork. He's my favorite D&D artist since Denis Beauvais used to draw those chessboard / dragon covers for Dragon magazine. (I didn't much get into the Parkinson / Elmore style paintings, 'though, even if the Laurana-standing-over-Sturm picture was a spectacular exception.)
My only real quibble with his artwork, and this was Eberron specific, is he often drew his Warforged fighters as Size Large, and opening up the book to find out that they were Medium sized with an average Strength of 10 was kind of a disconnect from how powerfully he drew some of them. :)
If anything Todd Lockwood's art feels more 'comic-book' to me (in a good way, as I've been a fan of comics longer than D&D), but I still love his concept art for the iconics , particularly the ones that didn't make it into the book, up on his website.
I've liked Reynolds and then disliked him and then started to like him again. I do prefer Steve Prescott's work on the PF AP covers (I think in part because he gets color into his shadows, which helps with shifts in mood). I didn't like him because he was so prevalent; I couldn't turn around without seeing his work somewhere. But once my fatigue with him wears off, I think he does some pretty bad ass illustrations. Especially since he works with acrylic or gouache rather than oil or digital; takes a lot of patience to do nice blends with fast drying mediums like that.
Jokes about Picaso's Blue Period aside, don't make the mistake that an artist cannot evolve, change, or simply have more then one trick poney. Writers are more often placed in a box, fantasy, mystery, Sci-Fi, romance, ect. ect. but I've seen it happen to artist.
As for the comic booky style, I've always kinda enjoyed it, and WAR is good at that. However I'm a little unique in that art even very bad art rearely moves me one way or another in terms of game books. Nor will very good art make me want or like a book any greater.
Joke? Picasso was still an artist during his blue period. Later he was a joke.
I'm enjoying reading how different folks are on this. It does me good to hear you say, Andre, that art doesn't motivate you when it comes to books or games. I'm very visually motivated, myself.
I like WARs style. Always have, always will I think. I think that War is for fantasy in color, what Ron Spencer is for fantasy in black and white.
I too am a fan of Wayne Reynolds. And I was musing to myself today (while prepping my game room for tonight's first foray with "Crucible of Chaos") about how GREAT it would be if Paizo commissioned WAR to do a GameMaster's screen for them (either NOW... heh heh... or shortly after the PFRPG final is out) and do that nice HEAVY cardstock like the ones WotC did for 4e or Star Wars Saga. So... okay I've posted my request here... since it was a discussion about Wayne and his artwork... but as a "product" request... should it go elsewhere?
PS: I like Steve Prescott as well... but WAR slightly more. :)
Regards;
The_Minstrel_Wyrm
Big fan of WAR, mainly due to the phenomenal panoramic pieces he made for the Eberron sups. Want to check out an amazing action scene? Look no further than the Eberron DM screen!
I have to admit that his earlier work around the 3e release (Dungeon/Dragon covers) never really sat well with me. Detail was there, but it seemed a little too "in your face" as compared to the previous generations more artsy approach.
I love the detail he puts into the characters - trinkets, baubles, scars, worn cloaks, etc. I also appreciate that he doesn't overdo the gaudy (Caldwell, ugh) and though obviously not "realistic" but holds a sense of "realism"
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I love Wayne Reynolds artwork. He's my favorite D&D artist since Denis Beauvais used to draw those chessboard / dragon covers for Dragon magazine. (I didn't much get into the Parkinson / Elmore style paintings, 'though, even if the Laurana-standing-over-Sturm picture was a spectacular exception.)
My only real quibble with his artwork, and this was Eberron specific, is he often drew his Warforged fighters as Size Large, and opening up the book to find out that they were Medium sized with an average Strength of 10 was kind of a disconnect from how powerfully he drew some of them. :)
If anything Todd Lockwood's art feels more 'comic-book' to me (in a good way, as I've been a fan of comics longer than D&D), but I still love his concept art for the iconics , particularly the ones that didn't make it into the book, up on his website.
I'm more in the Elmore (and that generation or group of artists) camp than the Reynolds camp. I think my first recollection of WAR was in the Eberron stuff and it just didn't really call out to me. A little too busy, too many sharp angles I think. I prefer a sparser, more muted style in painted-type covers than those, though perhaps a touch MORE action and cleaner lines than more classic fantasy painters like Vallejo and Hildebrand. Dragon 52 comes to mind as a really neat cover painting, though I have no idea how to link to it.
For a "comic booky" style in the old-school D&D modules, I liked Jeff Dee and Bill Willingham the best. In B&W, Jim Roslof and Dave Trampier did a lot of good stuff as well, and I liked Arnie Swikel's style a lot in the late 90s.
P.S. Those chessboard covers were some of the best ever in Dragon, but I actually think my favorite of Beauvais was the "flying dragon over the bridge" one from Dragon #92, which is also on the page under the link above. I was looking at the beautiful #98 cover (busy, and yet so rich) and I was amused to see a chessboard and a large black chess piece among the loot in the lower right corner. Funny...
I love WAR's work, both the color stuff and his B&W work from the 3.0 class splats. If there's a WAR illustration for something, I'm almost guaranteed to like it. I like some other artists, too, but I'm certainly not complaining about the amount of work Paizo's sending his way.
I really don't like terming it "comic-y", though. I can't recall the last time I looked at a comic book and saw art anywhere near as intricate and amazing as his. "Stylized" may be an appropriate term, but it's not exactly guys in tights and capes with overly square jaws and perfect abs, y'know.
The problem with the newer works is not the artistic style, but what he's drawing. When the customer wants bare arm plate mail and spiky swordblades, the customer gets.
When you look at older works, for example for L5R or Birthright, it's clearly his style, but he drew very different things.
And when he works for 4e and Pathfinder, which demand that comic-look, the characters he draws will look like that.
Creative Director
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We generally give Wayne very VERY little direction, actually. He knows the game very well, and knows what's cool and exciting. For the PFRPG cover, for example, we basically just asked him to paint a picture of Valeros and Seoni fighting a red dragon in a dungeon.
I'm a huge fan of his art (as is most everyone at Paizo), in any event. It's not everyone's favorite style, of course (as evidenced by this thread), but if everyone liked it, it wouldn't be art.
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We generally give Wayne very VERY little direction, actually. He knows the game very well, and knows what's cool and exciting. For the PFRPG cover, for example, we basically just asked him to paint a picture of Valeros and Seoni fighting a red dragon in a dungeon.
I'm a huge fan of his art (as is most everyone at Paizo), in any event. It's not everyone's favorite style, of course (as evidenced by this thread), but if everyone liked it, it wouldn't be art.
The first thing I thought of when I saw it was the old '80 Red Box image. There are obvious differences, but the idea of a manly-man and a womanly-woman taking on a dragon in a dungeon IS DnD! Thanks!
Gods yes! I miss his art so much.
I'm more in the Elmore (and that generation or group of artists) camp than the Reynolds camp.
Did Larry die? Or are you lamenting that he hasn't done much as of late? I preferred the heavy look that Brom has, myself. But Wayne Reynolds has a great sense of movement and his style works for the games I play.
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Did Larry die? Or are you lamenting that he hasn't done much as of late? I preferred the heavy look that Brom has, myself. But Wayne Reynolds has a great sense of movement and his style works for the games I play.
He's alive and well, I just miss his art. I don't see much from him anymore. I like the look of Brom's art as well, he does 'dark' very nicely.
Don't get me wrong, I like Wayne Reynolds as well, I just miss some of the old artists from time to time. :D
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I'll weigh in on the "huge fan" side. I loved the Eberron work and was stoked when Pathfinder chose him for the iconics. I personally find his detail--the costuming, the personality, and the amazing <i>movement</i> in his art is well beyond the quality of most fantasy art. Plus, having had a breif opportunity to corrspond with him, I'll add he seems like a cool guy---responsive, gracious ... I'm a fan. ;-)
I personally love Reynolds' art. I think he's the best artist I've ever seen working in RPGs (Though, pretty much all of the pathfinder art has been good (The art directors really know how to do their jobs). When one of my friends showed me the iconic artwork, I looked at it and said "this is absolutely what RPG art should look like". The characters all look well-traveled and worn out, with actual places to keep gear on their person and decent sized equipment, and the women all look like actual adventurers and not the chainkini pornstars we got with 2e D&D. The two exceptions that prove the rule are Seoni and the barbarian, and really, that makes sense. Sorcerers and barbarians are supposed to be flamboyant (as opposed to the wizard and fighter, who both look so very practical). And nothing has that glowy/spikey shoulderpads-of-doom look that WOW favors so heavily.
And really, I've been surprised with how little art Reynolds has done for 4e. He's done some covers, but, mostly, 4e has had that guy who draws transformer dwarves and hellboy tielflings with midriffs midriffs midriffs!
I've gotta be honest, I've never really gotten Elmore's stuff. To me, it looks like there's no sense of motion. Everyone's just posing and it's too clean. Also...big 80s hair.
I'll weigh in on the "huge fan" side. I loved the Eberron work and was stoked when Pathfinder chose him for the iconics. I personally find his detail--the costuming, the personality, and the amazing <i>movement</i> in his art is well beyond the quality of most fantasy art. Plus, having had a breif opportunity to corrspond with him, I'll add he seems like a cool guy---responsive, gracious ... I'm a fan. ;-)
Yeah, he's lovely. My girlfriend was corresponding him because she notice how much I loved his stuff. She now adores him and his art. A real gentleman.
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Did Larry die? Or are you lamenting that he hasn't done much as of late? I preferred the heavy look that Brom has, myself. But Wayne Reynolds has a great sense of movement and his style works for the games I play.
He's alive and well, I just miss his art. I don't see much from him anymore. I like the look of Brom's art as well, he does 'dark' very nicely.
Don't get me wrong, I like Wayne Reynolds as well, I just miss some of the old artists from time to time. :D
I've got a great fondness for the old 1st/2nd edition artists too. But my all-time favorite had to be the one that most differed from all of them: Tony DiTerlizzi. I still adore his work as much as I did when I was first introduced to Planescape.
By the way, the artist that passed away was Keith Parkinson. Another guy whose work I enjoyed. Loved his landscapes.(that's one thing about the 1st/2nd edition artists that stands out to me, realistic landscapes. I need to go back and check some day, but that's what comes to mind when I think of Elmore and Parkinson: detailed forests and such). He also did quite a bit of Rifts work, as well as some art for Everquest IIRC.
Oh right, Wayne Reynolds? Love his stuff too. It was his Eberron work that first caught my eye. I liked his stylization(a term someone mentioned they prefer over the blanket "comic" comparison, and I have to agree) and crazy character and clothing designs. I just loved the look he established for that setting. Yeah, his art isn't for everyone, but I'm quite happy with it. Looking forward to his first artbook...
(much love to Todd Lockwood too, of course)
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Well, I love most of Wayne's stuff (Still don't like Seoni...breast implants and all...), but Lini is my fantasy girlfriend (I like short girls), and his pics of her are quite awesome.
As far as older artists, both RPG and otherwise, I love Brom, Matt Wilson and Simon Bisley, Frank Miller, as well as Frazetta, for my 'painting' art, and good old Roslof and WIllingham for my old-school D&D artists...Oh, and Jeff Dee...with his D&D Basic Set characters all having bell bottoms...Haha, the 79s!!!
-Uriel
The comments about "stylization" are on target. The more highly stylized illustration is, generally, the less favorably it will compare in my eyes with more realistic illustration, although of course my tolerance/enjoyment of any given style will vary. Thanks for the few comments that relate to my original question about WAR's development. Since he gets little direction from Paizo's orders (somewhat surprising to me, but thanks to JJ for enlightening us), this bolsters my sense that he is developing as an artist. I hope it continues.
Ubermench - your bringing in Brom suggests to my mind (of course, highly opinionated) that certain artists are best used for certain kinds of work. Brom to me is good for outsiders, aberrations, and other freaky things. DiTerlizzi kind of goes with goblins for me like the Frouds. That said, I certainly like the stupid-vicious-brutal WAR goblins. I want to kick those heads, but only with tooth-proof footwear.
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Well, I love most of Wayne's stuff (Still don't like Seoni...breast implants and all...), but Lini is my fantasy girlfriend (I like short girls), and his pics of her are quite awesome.
As far as older artists, both RPG and otherwise, I love Brom, Matt Wilson and Simon Bisley, Frank Miller, as well as Frazetta, for my 'painting' art, and good old Roslof and WIllingham for my old-school D&D artists...Oh, and Jeff Dee...with his D&D Basic Set characters all having bell bottoms...Haha, the 79s!!!-Uriel
breast implants?! what ever they are, it is all natural here! how rude! nothing has been enhanced by magic.
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iWell, I love most of Wayne's stuff (Still don't like Seoni...breast implants and all...), but Lini is my fantasy girlfriend (I like short girls), and his pics of her are quite awesome.
As far as older artists, both RPG and otherwise, I love Brom, Matt Wilson and Simon Bisley, Frank Miller, as well as Frazetta, for my 'painting' art, and good old Roslof and WIllingham for my old-school D&D artists...Oh, and Jeff Dee...with his D&D Basic Set characters all having bell bottoms...Haha, the 79s!!!-Uriel
breast implants?! what ever they are, it is all natural here! how rude! nothing has been enhanced by magic.
Magic bra by Fredricks of Absalom.
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WaR's overrated, and the preponderance of his artwork on Paizo products is the one bad mark against them. Wouldn't stop me buying them, of course, but it's still annoying. He can draw, sure, but his style is just so bland and uninspiring.
Give me Michael Komarck anyday. Or Todd Lockwood. Much more inspiring and much more D&D.
With permanent invisibility?
It might be good to look at it, to see how it looks.
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...and the preponderance of his artwork on Paizo products is the one bad mark against them.Maybe for you...
Of course it's for me. I wasn't stating it as some universal principle!
Still, I'd by far prefer something like this for the cover of the PFRPG. Just replace the 3.5 Iconics with Merisiel, Seoni and Valeros.
Wow, I'm feeling that hardcore.
...and the preponderance of his artwork on Paizo products is the one bad mark against them.Maybe for you...Of course it's for me. I wasn't stating it as some universal principle!
Still, I'd by far prefer something like this for the cover of the PFRPG. Just replace the 3.5 Iconics with Merisiel, Seoni and Valeros.
Magic bra by Fredricks of Absalom.S
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iWell, I love most of Wayne's stuff (Still don't like Seoni...breast implants and all...), but Lini is my fantasy girlfriend (I like short girls), and his pics of her are quite awesome.
As far as older artists, both RPG and otherwise, I love Brom, Matt Wilson and Simon Bisley, Frank Miller, as well as Frazetta, for my 'painting' art, and good old Roslof and WIllingham for my old-school D&D artists...Oh, and Jeff Dee...with his D&D Basic Set characters all having bell bottoms...Haha, the 79s!!!-Uriel
breast implants?! what ever they are, it is all natural here! how rude! nothing has been enhanced by magic.
I thought it was her Silicone Elemental bloodline.
I'll side with the other folks who like the W.A.R. Eberron panoramas. You can just feel the action!
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Still, I'd by far prefer something like this for the cover of the PFRPG. Just replace the 3.5 Iconics with Merisiel, Seoni and Valeros.
Cool, where's that from?
...and the preponderance of his artwork on Paizo products is the one bad mark against them.Maybe for you...Of course it's for me. I wasn't stating it as some universal principle!
Still, I'd by far prefer something like this for the cover of the PFRPG. Just replace the 3.5 Iconics with Merisiel, Seoni and Valeros.
Very cool, but I adore the PFRPG cover, so I'll never be swayed! NEVER! :D
Nice pic though, really panoramic and epic.
Yeah, I gotta say my tastes are closer to Uzzy's (not that that's what I really intended the thread to be about). It does illustrate what I meant by more realistic, however, if that was unclear.
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I have always liked WAR's art. The little details and the fact the I could imagine someone actually wearing the cloths and them being functional adds a lot. I mean I like looking at the bikini chainmail girls and all but not something I would expect to see as a practical outfit.
I have always like Elmore's work for sure all though I also think some of them are a little posed.
Brom does do some good work and I think it worked great for the Dark Sun books but that is about the only RPG art of his I like.
This has got to be my favorite WAR piece.
That fire giant is awesome!
If I could make a caption for it, it would be something like this:
"Hello, this is Dungeons & Dragons."
Really, it's just awesome.
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iYeah, I gotta say my tastes are closer to Uzzy's (not that that's what I really intended the thread to be about). It does illustrate what I meant by more realistic, however, if that was unclear.
*Seonis not amused look*
You want amusement?