RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I think this fits more in the magic items section than any other. It would be good to have a clarification about what happens when you put one extra dimensional space inside the other. Currently, there are rules under bags of holding and portable holes about how they interact with each other, but that's it. There are none for efficient quivers or handy haversacks and the rope trick spell indicates that "It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing
extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an
existing one."
It would be nice to move all of this text from the items and the spell to the glossary, and have a standard rule about what happens. This would also cover any other new sources of extradimensional spaces down the road.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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And please don't continue the silliness of the FAQ ruling that a BoH can go inside another BoH to be an extradimensional Nesting Doll.
No Extradimensional items should mix without some consequence. However some of those consequences should be less than tearing a hole into the astral and losing your stuff or shunting you into the astral. Maybe 1d6 force damage per difference in CL or an item like an Efficient Quiver or HHH is dispelled for 24 hours.
Trying to nest extradimensional effects = dividing by zero? :lol:
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My suggestion for extradimensional spaces inside extradimentional spaces is simple: they just stop working, in that they cannot be accessed. You take your handy haversack into a rope trick, no problem, but you can't retrieve anything from it or add anything to it.
Having catastrophic things occur is a sacred cow -- a little one -- but it's a pain in the ass that basically renders a large number of spells all but worthless. And that's if it's remembered in the first place.
-- Jeff
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My suggestion for extradimensional spaces inside extradimentional spaces is simple: they just stop working, in that they cannot be accessed. You take your handy haversack into a rope trick, no problem, but you can't retrieve anything from it or add anything to it.
Having catastrophic things occur is a sacred cow -- a little one -- but it's a pain in the ass that basically renders a large number of spells all but worthless. And that's if it's remembered in the first place.
-- Jeff
The problem with this is nesting bags of holding for massive increases in carrying capacity. A Type I bag of holding can carry 16 Type ones with some change, a Type IV can store 25 of itself, or 100 Type Is. So at that maximum you can carry 37,500lb of stuff. Sure you lose the ability to access the stuff in your sub bags, but It's still a lot of stuff.
How about this as a rule: You can't bring an extradimensional space into another if doing so would violate the capacity of one of the spaces.
So you can still bring your Handy Haversack into a Rope Trick, since the Rope Trick isn't capacity limited. YOu can't access your stuff temporarily, but since Rope Tricks aren't portable, there's not really an exploit there.
And you can stuff a Bag of Holding into another Bag of Holding, if they're all empty. But it you try to pack a full Bag of Holding into a Haversack, it'll be exactly as if you tried to pack the contents of the bag into the haversack directly: it will feel 'full' and you won't be able to get it in.
As for the bag of holding/portable hole thing, since the portable hole is volume-limited (so my rule above doesn't fix it any more than the rope trick), the classical solution is a sacred cow and it works.
Doesn't mean I like it, though. I feel the current ruling is a bit 'everyone dies' answer to exploiting players. As it is, newbie players who haven't read the whole DMG can accidentally throw themselves into the astral plane, while experienced players know better and occasionally use it as a WMD.
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We could always KISS this. Simply indicate that a portable extradimensional holding item cannot be placed inside of another portable extradimensional holding item under any circumstances. The receptacle item acts as if "full" with respect to the other item.
Yes, this could lead to bags of holding floating on top of a portable hole. Hmm, that could be a really funny trap...
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We could always KISS this. Simply indicate that a portable extradimensional holding item cannot be placed inside of another portable extradimensional holding item under any circumstances. The receptacle item acts as if "full" with respect to the other item.
Yes, this could lead to bags of holding floating on top of a portable hole. Hmm, that could be a really funny trap...
Bag of holding and interaction with other items
side note would be great, adding that items and things that are sucked into it are scattered across the planes through the planar conduits in the astral plane.
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I like ross's answer. Extra dementional space takes up the another EDS area. hence a larger item cannot be placed in a smaller item. Now that is KISS.
Oh, and if a weapon has a sheath, then it is not sharp. i always wondered why there are all these weapons lying around without a sheath of some kind. jeck a blanket would logically nullify sharp objects.
KISS usually stands for "Keep It Simple Stupid". There are several variations on that theme, but that is how I learned it. Sorry if it offends anyone.
Just my 2 cp.
Doesn't mean I like it, though. I feel the current ruling is a bit 'everyone dies' answer to exploiting players. As it is, newbie players who haven't read the whole DMG can accidentally throw themselves into the astral plane, while experienced players know better and occasionally use it as a WMD.
I have a friend of mine that did just that in a game he was in a few years back! Handy Haversack + Portable Hole + Spider Climb = bye bye pesky Worm That Walks! You're someone else's problem now! :lol:
I'll keep two of them and summon a demon to put them together when I'm out of range... as others have said, it's a last ditch WMD.
The problem is no matter what happens to "solve" some of these problems, someone will find a way to exploit it as a character. I don't see this as bad, it's a good thing really. We used to congratulate people for thinking so well when they came up with these ideas, not tell them that they are "powergamers" who are trying to "break" the game.
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The problem with this is nesting bags of holding for massive increases in carrying capacity.
Honestly, it doesn't really bother me. First, it's nice not to have to actually worry about whether or not PCs can carry around a bunch of miscellaneous stuff. (Have you seen how many prepared adventures give treasure in the form of multiple -- like dozens -- of suits of armor and such?) As long as it can fit in a bag of holding cart it on out. Second, if PCs want to spend that much gold and resources for a carrying solution, again it's fine with me.
The only thing I want to worry about with regard to bags of holding and other extradimensional spaces is, "Will whatever fit?" (And by this, I mean physically fit past the mouth of the bag.) I don't want to have to constantly be calculating capacity and such. If it matters, my perspective is as a DM.
-- Jeff
Bags of holding inside bags of holding are like an array of arrays of arrays of arrays.... It works, while bags within holes or vice versa doesn't.
That proves to me that the creator didn't use C++ (the C stands for Creation), but some weird derivative that doesn't implement its principles consistently. That's what you get for creating your worlds with C#! Might look good at first, but sooner or later, you'll run into unhandled exceptions and crashes are preordained.
I hear if you place a bag of holding into a bag of holding, and put that into a bag of holding, and put THAT into a portable hole, you unmake creation. The whole multilevel interaction between pointers, uh, I mean, extradimensional spaces, is too much for the universe to handle, and the bags will take the place of, and supersede, space, time, and all natural laws, respectively.
... So what you are saying is that if I crawl into the first one before I dump them all into the portable hole I'm safe?
And just so I know...
How much exp is an encounter with the universe worth?
... So what you are saying is that if I crawl into the first one before I dump them all into the portable hole I'm safe?
And just so I know...
How much exp is an encounter with the universe worth?
None. You blew up the concept of XP along with the universe;p
WOOT! I'M LEVEL UNLIMITED!
WOOT! I'M LEVEL UNLIMITED!
Actually, the concept of 'level' went up with the universe too. As did words, thoughts, life . . . .
But the roaches are still there. And Pizza Hut. It won the merchandise wars too, you know.
I need my pills.
... So what you are saying is that if I crawl into the first one before I dump them all into the portable hole I'm safe?
Are you sure you'll withstand replacing space? Not some space, but all of it? The very concept? *I* don't know what that would do to a mix of body, mind and soul, but I suspect it might not be nice.
Are you sure you'll withstand replacing space? Not some space, but all of it? The very concept? *I* don't know what that would do to a mix of body, mind and soul, but I suspect it might not be nice.... So what you are saying is that if I crawl into the first one before I dump them all into the portable hole I'm safe?
::Shrugs:: I'll either survive or I'll make Cthulhu blush, both of which are equally good in my book.
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KISS usually stands for "Keep It Simple Stupid". There are several variations on that theme, but that is how I learned it. Sorry if it offends anyone.
Just my 2 cp.
Pretty much what I was referring to with KISS.
Of course there are always the more friendly definitions:
Keep It Simple, Silly!
Keep It Simply Simple
Kids In Satan's Service
***Whow, 70's flashback there.***
Back on post's target: The use of the Bag of Holding/Portable Hole combination as a man portable thermonuclear device does sound a bit problematic to a long term campaign. Let's go with either they fit within each other and take up the appropriate mass, or they can't be placed in one another at all. Definitely no explosions.
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OK so a portable hole is a sort of on again, off again” gateway to a specific pocket of some (presumed the astral) plane in the form of a cylinder 10’ long and 6’ in diameter. A bag of holding is a small gateway to a spongy elastic “nondimensional space” that due to its violent reaction when brought into contact with a portable hole would seem to also be associated with the astral plane. I don’t know if any of the following have been addressed elsewhere by some d20 or pathfindery authority but here are some of my questions I would like to see answered eventually.
- If these things act like gateways to these other spaces why does cutting the outside of a bag of holding rupture the “nondimensional space”? One would suspect that since the portable hole has no sides and is the same type of space as a bag of holding, the “bag” is just a way to let people wrap their heads around it for familiarity. Otherwise it would just be a small “hole” but is sewn into a real bag. Except the bag gets larger and weighs more as it is filled which makes no sense.
- Other ”nondimensional space” space items (as mentioned above) do not say specifally how they interact with these items so can se assume they all act as bags of holding?
- If it is bad to take Bags of Holding, Haversacks or Magic Quivers into a rope trick which is an “an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”)” which seems to be separate from the “nondimensional space” of the other times that the Portable hole is in fact an “extradimensional space” not a “nondimensional space” as defined in the description?
Perhaps the terms Extradimensional and nondimensional could be better defined or unified.
Then you come to the question of what happens to any of these items in the area of effect of a dimensional lock spell or if hit with dimensional anchor?
Or
Do these devices even function beyond the reach of the prime material?
Whatever the rulings are, they should certainly go in a sidebar somewhere. It saves room and confusion.
I think something along the lines of the old Potion Miscibility table might be in order, where you've got a few extra options. Something like this:
Dimensional Stability
Whenever any item with an aperture leading to an extradimensional space (portable hole, bag of holding, efficient quiver, handy haversack, etc.) is placed within another item of the same variety, consult the following table to see if the extradimensional pockets remain stable or become unstable. This situation also applies to items temporarily enchanted with similar effects via spell (secret chest, rope trick, mage’s magnificent mansion, etc.)
Once the interaction is determined for any two given items, it remains constant. This case also applies to any given instance of a spell, so long as the same individual item is used as focus for the casting (same miniature chest, rope, model door, etc.)
Roll Percentile:
1-30 Stable. Both extradimensional apertures and spaces function normally.
31-55 Unstable. Both extradimensional apertures cease to function.
56-60 Outer stability, inner instability. The outer item functions normally but the inner item does not function until removed from the outer.
61-65 Outer instability, inner stability. The inner item functions normally but the outer item does not function until the inner is removed or otherwise disabled.
66-70 Pinhole Tear. Both items appear to function normally, but there is a slight tear in space and a random item within one is lost to the Astral plane.
71-75 Astral Packrat. Both items appear to function normally, but the dimensional instability has drawn the attention of some astral entity which takes something from either space but leaves something else in its exchange.
76-80 Astral Flotsam. Something item lost in the Astral Plane, never to be seen again, suddenly is--in the bottom of one of the extradimensional spaces.
81-85 Dimensional Merge. Outer item destroyed but contents and capacity of outer item added to space of inner item. Inner item continues to function.
86-90 Dimensional Merge. Inner item destroyed but contents and capacity of inner item added to outer item. Outer item continues to function.
91-95 Rupture! Both items destroyed and all contents are sucked into the Astral Plane, forever lost.
96-97 Vacuum! Both apertures destroyed and everything within a 10-foot radius sucked into the Astral Plane.
98-99 Surprise! Some entity usually only encountered on the astral plane is sucked into the prime material.
100 Portal Creation! Both items now lead to the same extradimensional space, with the capacity and contents of both.
What percentages would you suggest? I modeled off the 1st ed Potion Miscibility table from the DMG and some of the notes in the 1st ed version of Leomund's Secret Chest from the PHB, where there was business about beings in the astral plane occasionally stealing, swapping or adding items.
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well i would start by making the benign effect less likely to happen and increase the harmful effect change and also i would add more harmfull effects. The effect of moving items like that one inside the other has always been harmful and it would be nice to continue as that however it doesnt mean that once in while we get reports of people that survived the effects of mixing such dangerous items together or even got benefits from it.
I just dont like the idea of players mixing these items so they can increase the capacity or influence the roll by the aid of limited wish or wish spells.
Well, I could see adding a few more harmful effects, certainly. But if your players have wishes and limited wishes to burn just to get a bigger magic purse, I think you've got other issues. Not the least being that they could just wish for a new purse with the desired capacity, rather than wishing to influence tables they shouldn't know about anyway.
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Unfortunately I dont even have players to have issues with. Just me i am afraid. My point was not about the wish stuff, that is not it, the point was to many good effects or that are more likely to happen then the very few harmful ones. basically the harmful effects(specially the rift one) should happen more often in fact al most always with very few rarely seen or heard off exceptions.
Okay then. Try this on for size.
Dimensional Stability
Whenever any item with an aperture leading to an extradimensional space (portable hole, bag of holding, efficient quiver, handy haversack, etc.) is placed within another item of the same variety, consult the following table to see if the extradimensional pockets remain stable or become unstable. This situation also applies to items temporarily enchanted with similar effects via spell (secret chest, rope trick, mage’s magnificent mansion, etc.)
Once the interaction is determined for any two given items, it remains constant. This case also applies to any given instance of a spell, so long as the same individual item is used as focus for the casting (same miniature chest, rope, model door, etc.)
Roll Percentile:
1-15 Astral Tear. Both items destroyed and all contents are sucked into the Astral Plane, forever lost.
16-30 Astral Rift. Both items destroyed and everything within a 10-foot radius sucked into the Astral Plane.
31-45 Astral Burst. Both items destroyed and contents violently ejected, pelting everything in a 10-foot radius. Treat all contents as projectile weapons and roll for breakage.
46-60 Astral Breach. Not only is there an explosion, but some entity usually only encountered on the astral plane has been sucked through as well. It is not likely to be pleased.
61-75 Stable. Both extradimensional apertures and spaces function normally.
76-80 Unstable. Both extradimensional apertures cease to function.
81-85 Outer stability, inner instability. The outer item functions normally but the inner item does not function until removed from the outer.
86-90 Outer instability, inner stability. The inner item functions normally but the outer item does not function until the inner is removed or otherwise disabled.
91-92 Inward Merge. Outer item destroyed but contents and capacity of outer item added to space of inner item. Inner item continues to function.
93-94 Outward Merge. Inner item destroyed but contents and capacity of inner item added to outer item. Outer item continues to function.
95 Maw of the Devourer. Both items appear to function normally, but the dimensional warps have attracted the attention of an astral devourer which replaces the apertures with its own orifices. When next opened, original contents will be lost and both will operate as Bags of Devouring.
96 Transmutation. The magical field wavers and the contents are transmuted to valueless analogues: gold becomes lead, gems become glass, and all items are stripped of their magic. What happens to living flesh is anyone’s guess.
97 Pinhole. Both items appear to function normally, but there is a slight tear in space and a random item within one is lost to the Astral plane.
98 Packrat. Both items appear to function normally, but the dimensional instability has drawn the attention of some astral entity which takes something from either space but leaves something else in it in exchange.
99 Flotsam. Something item lost in the Astral Plane, never to be seen again, suddenly is--in the bottom of one of the extradimensional spaces.
100 Wormhole. Both items now lead to the same extradimensional space, with the capacity and contents of both.
Glad you like it.
Now I guess it's just time for playtesting.
(If anyone from Paizo likes it enough, I've done a lot of writing over the years for White Wolf and other companies, so it's available and so am I.)
I don't know, I would like to see a little more chance of "Nothing happens" effects.
After all it's a bit mean spirited to go "you thought of something and tried something different! PUNISHMENT!" all the time.
Well, it's currently 60% bad, 30% indifferent, and 10% weird, with the weird ranging from the very bad to the very good, with a small bit of the mildly puzzling thrown in.
And the bad now has only a 15% chance of losing all your possessions (maybe 18% if you count the bad weird stuff) which is a significant improvement over the previous scenarios.
But that's still 60% bad. Which means experimenting is bad, which isn't a message I like to send to players.
Now I realise it all comes down to personal taste but I think I would perfer a mix more like: 50% indifferent (wierd little real effect things) 35% bad 15% good. With this it is more likely that things just don't work... like trying to connect components together that aren't made to go with each other, however if you aren't careful (35%) of the time you plug straight into the powersource (Ouch!) but you get those weird serendipity moments (10%) when it all goes together and you have a flux capacitor in the back of your dolorian.
Okay, how about this one then.
Dimensional Stability
Whenever any item with an aperture leading to an extradimensional space (portable hole, bag of holding, efficient quiver, handy haversack, etc.) is placed within another item of the same variety, consult the following table to see if the extradimensional pockets remain stable or become unstable. This situation also applies to items temporarily enchanted with similar effects via spell (secret chest, rope trick, mage’s magnificent mansion, etc.)
Once the interaction is determined for any two given items, it remains constant. This case also applies to any given instance of a spell, so long as the same individual item is used as focus for the casting (same miniature chest, rope, model door, etc.)
Roll Percentile:
1-8 Astral Tear. Both items destroyed and all contents are sucked into the Astral Plane, forever lost.
9-16 Astral Rift. Both items destroyed and everything within a 10-foot radius sucked into the Astral Plane.
17-24 Astral Burst. Both items destroyed and contents violently ejected, pelting everything in a 10-foot radius. Treat all contents as projectile weapons and roll for breakage.
25-32 Astral Breach. Not only is there an explosion, but some entity usually only encountered on the astral plane has been sucked through as well. It is not likely to be pleased.
33-57 Stable Juxtaposition. Both extradimensional apertures and spaces function normally.
58-67 Unstable Juxtaposition. Both extradimensional apertures cease function.
68-77 Outer stability, inner instability. The outer item functions normally but the inner item does not function until removed from the outer.
78-87 Outer instability, inner stability. The inner item functions normally but the outer item does not function until the inner is removed or otherwise disabled.
88 Inward Merge. Outer item destroyed but contents and capacity of outer item added to space of inner item. Inner item continues to function.
89 Outward Merge. Inner item destroyed but contents and capacity of inner item added to outer item. Outer item continues to function.
90 Aperture Swap. There is a violent twist of the dimensional warp. Once settled, the aperture of the first item leads to the former interior of the second and vice versa. This can lead to oddities such as extremely capacious quivers with invisible valets or magnificent mansion doors that lead to sporting goods closets.
91 Enchantment Transference. The enchantments and extradimensional pockets detach from their related items but reattach to the nearest examples of similar objects not already enchanted.
92 Maw of the Devourer. Both items appear to function normally, but the dimensional warps have attracted the attention of an astral devourer which replaces the apertures with its own orifices. When next opened, original contents will be lost and both will operate as Bags of Devouring.
93 Dyspepsia of the Devourer. An astral devourer has discovered the dimensional warps but finds their undulations extremely unappetizing. It vomits the contents of one of its orifices into both.
94 Negative Transmutation. The magical field wavers and valuable contents are transmuted to valueless analogues: gold becomes lead, gems become glass, and all items are stripped of their magic. What happens to living flesh is anyone’s guess.
95 Positive Transmutation. The magical field wavers and mundane contents are transmuted to precious analogues: lead becomes gold, glass becomes gems, and mundane articles become magical. What happens to living flesh is likewise a mystery.
96 Pinhole. Both items appear to function normally, but there is a slight tear in space and a random object within one is lost to the Astral plane.
97 Astral Packrat. Both items appear to function normally, but the dimensional instability has drawn the attention of some astral entity which takes something from either space but leaves something else in it in exchange.
98 Flotsam of the Astral Seas. Some item lost ages ago in the Astral Plane, never to be seen again, suddenly is--in the bottom of one of the extradimensional spaces.
99 Wormhole. Both items now lead to the same extradimensional space, with the capacity and contents of both.
100 Well of Many Worlds. One of the items becomes a Well of Many Worlds, casting the other and the rest of its contents into another world. The lost possessions may be retrieved by those who dare to journey through the aperture of the first item.
Now that looks interesting! Consider it swiped! Got some really interesting ideas there... we tend to ramble in our adventures around here so this could get us a lot of new hooks. Thank you.
You're entirely welcome. Tell me how it goes. It's nice to see something playtested by someone other than the designer.