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What are you looking for conceptually?
What are you looking for mechanically?
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
Any deal breakers?
1) Although the prime can still be made interesting at epic level, I've always envisioned those at epic levels to brush shoulders with the multiverse. It's no longer the local mayor asking for help, it's a Deva, or some alien from a far off world. Wherever one goes, people are more inclined to know about them.
2) I'd enjoy anything that simplified complex effects. Maybe fireballs just do an automated 60 damage without rolling. Maybe a simple diplomacy check to get two warring towns to make peace. Lower level spells 0 - 2 become silly at this point, so maybe they all merge into a cantrip-like effect or can be swapped out for more effective supernatural abilities
3) I'm not skeptical, but I would also like to see support in terms of modules and/ or some kind of AP that would be made for 13+ or epic level of play.
4) I can't think of any deal breakers.
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
Tough sell for me because, in the 29 years I've been playing D&D, I've yet to have a campaign last long enough to reach levels greater than 20.
As an addendum to my previous "And make sure things don't continue scaling exactly the same way. If a natural 20 is no longer enough to succeed without the rule of automatic success..." statement, here's an example:
Spellcasters taking caster-level penalizing classes get burned big time by epic progressions of those classes under the current epic rules. In no time they simply can't keep up with a straight-classed wizard or members of other prestige classes. Virtually all spellcasting classes should have full 1-to-1 ratio of caster level to class level advancement in order to prevent this from happening. (I would extend this even to half-casters, like rangers and paladins.)
I did not read the entire thread, but want to add my 2c nevertheless.
I´m mildly interested in Paizos take of epic play, for the sake of it. I don´t see a group I´m part of playing in that league anytime soon.
I think epic should intergrate two different aspects: one being the continuation of "normal" play beyond level 20 - with or without any caps (if using caps, I would not cap levels, but abilities - e.g., maybe base save can´t get any higher than, say, +25 or +30). This would need to be a seamless fit to the existing game. It should include things others proposed, like empire-building, reforming entire countries etc, but remain on a mortal level. As examples, take the FR NPCs or folks like Mordenkainen and Rary from Greyhawk - they don´t bomb their ways through their enemies, but have proxies handle that. They shape the world they live in, but still stay part of it. It would be "just" very high level gaming, actually.
The other epic aspect should be similar to the old Immortals set from the BECMI D&D line - as James Jacobs supposed, something very different and perhaps wildly over the top, with characters being redefined and perhaps an epic progression of its own, which may or may not result in godhood. This would necessitate some mechanical changes to the characters, I guess. I would make level 20 or 21 a minimum requirement for this. The designers could really go wild on this one, it will and should be a planes-spanning game. This would be epic or "divine" or superhero gameplay for sure.
The game mechanics should remain close the the normal rules, and KISS should be the most important design rule. OTOH, just getting Epic Improved Initiative (+8) as feat is just plain boring. Now, if your initiative is twice the result of the enemies, you get to act twice (like in shadowrun), it is getting epic. So, do not pile more bonuses, change the capabilities of the characters.
Epic adventures are important as well, one adventure (or even one AP) altering the world, and one leaving the world.
Just some ideas.
Stefan
This may seem like a ridiculous idea, but I'm wondering if epic levels could be redesigned so that players still advance in feats and special abilities, but never advance in terms of Hit Dice, attack bonuses, and saves. Perhaps monsters could use similar rules too, so that they don't need a truckload of Hit Dice to present a challenge to the PCs.
I think this idea might eliminate some of the math bloat that happens at epic levels, and it would certainly make the transition feel more seamless than an entirely new ruleset for epic level characters, as has been suggested.
Anyway, I just thought I'd throw that idea out there.
I have been wondering the same thing. Of course, it might require characters to enter some form of "epic class" to function correctly.
On Epic Magic Items...
Just an idle wonder. These should not be purchasable in most people's campaigns unless you're wandering in the planes and a Mercane pops out of the woodwork.
Instead, Epic Magic Items can only be created by Epic Wizards in certain circumstances- OR infused into player's already existing weapons (Weapons of Legacy-style evolution) when they slay a particularly magical or powerful being. By doing that, the players' gear takes on extra-special qualities, once again determinable and moddable by a long list of rated and evaluated "powers" that can be swapped between items.
ex:
The +5 Sword that slay a powerful demilich takes on an ochre glow and emits Finger of Death every time it is used on someone.Why?
The demilich, in its dying throes, attempted to activate a contingency Finger of Death spell on the hero, and instead, the power became absorbed by the highly unstable, and highly magical sword.
Too Bad Weapons of Legacy stole the idea from Earthdawn threaded items, then added penalties to using the abilities...who wants those constraints?
I eliminated the penalties for Legacy items in my games. They're legacy, you have to do stuff to unlock them, stop the insanity!
I agree that it would take epic level wizards to create the items, then again in Eberron, epic items are left over from the ancient ages, from Dhakaan, and the Age of Demons. So in Golarion, these epic level items would be from Aztlant, and Osirion, or amongst the other lost civilizations.
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Like others, I would like to see a continuation of advancement for characters beyond 20 but in a way that's playable. I would also like to see a rule set to make opponents (the monsters that the PCs would be facing from the bestiary) get "beefed up" to be a challenge as well as a repeat of some of the Epic Monsters from ELH (I have always want to unleash the Hecatoncheires on my players to see if they can truly save the world from destruction). I would also like to see rules for making Deities which would be way above Epic Level characters as Epic Level characters are above non-Epic level Characters. As someone said, both ELH and D&DG seemd to have been created in a vacuum. Anyway that's what I'd like to see.
Another tricky subject is Epic spells. Should they be as powerful as Epic powers? Are they simply spells level 10 and up? What is more powerful than the Wish spell? No matter what, I'd get rid of the Epic Level Handbook system of spell seeds and ultra high skill DCs in order to cast Epic spells. Perhaps, speaking from a 'Lore' perspective, spell levels 1-9 are 'mortal' magic and spell levels 10+ are just something else. Hence the Wish spell (and Miracle) are simply the most powerful 'mortal' magic spells. There'll need to be ALOT of thought put into Epic spellcasting; it'll be one of the most heavily scrutinized systems however you choose to implement it.
That just reminded me of the old Mayfair Games box "Archmagic" I happen to have sitting on my shelf. IIRC, it contains spells along with stories for these spells which can achieve more than a wish could, and which go beyond level 9 - might be worth another look.
Stefan
Epic level play is very important to our gaming group, we played AD&D for a long time without ever seeing 11th, but with 3.0 we played a game last lasted until 33rd lvl. With 3.5 we played several games into the high teens.
We have never been happy with the ELH, especially its rules for epic spellcasting. What I, and the rest of my group, would like to see is a return to 10th level and higher spells. Actual spells, not seeds and modifiers and spellcraft checks that dont work in a real game.
The epic level handbook should look just like the players handbook, except epic, with epic class abilities, epic skill uses, epic feats and epic spells. The ELH handled a lot of these things well, but the epic spells were far too different and difficult for most players to want to deal with.
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The current Epic Level rules are a mess.
The way to make the game more mythic in scope is not to make it more bloated with math.
So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do. With that in mind, I'm very curious to hear what people think about the idea of play beyond level 20.
What are you looking for conceptually?
What are you looking for mechanically?
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
Any deal breakers?
My deal breaker would be to re-do the Epic Level rules as they stand now in the OGL, so I'm really, really glad to read you won't be doing this. The ELH SUCKS.
For me, Epic means tone first and foremost. It makes me think, as far as fantasy's concerned, about characters like Elric or Hawkmoon, or Companions of the Champion thereof. It makes me think of worlds, universes hanging in the balance, of incredibly strange friends and foes, of whole new dimensions to explore.
It does not mean the same old same old with more math and a sh!tload of dice thrown for damage. It does not mean a bloated character sheet.
The idea of a clear cut from the core rules, for instance the "Epic Level 1" idea of James Jacobs, seems to be the good way to go. Powers could be conceptually based off the character classes' archetypes, but would have broader effects and more... imagery to them. Think "Mage: The Ascension" Spheres or high level Vampire Disciplines, when the actual powers become more free-form in nature, but with a little more structure/limits to them.
I think the D&D Classic Immortals box would be a good starting point (but just that, for the base inspiration, not the mechanics themselves). Something still playable, that is still D&D in nature (tactically, with team-work, clear roles in a party, some exploration of "dungeons" though the concept of dungeon itself could/should be dramatically broader at this point).
I guess what I would not want would be a "superhero"/goofy/anime emphasis to it. That's not what I'm looking for when I think "Epic". I'm thinking more about the Abyss of Nihrain, the end of the Million of Spheres, Adventurers on the Seas of Fate... if you see what I mean.
I haven't taken the time to read this thread in its entirety, and this is my opinion.
I think the current epic rules have a good concept in progressing the characters beyond level 20, but just have some problems that need to be fixed:
* I didn't think that switching all classes to a wizard's BAB and a monk's saves was very difficult to apply. High-level play to epic play transitioned rather smoothely in that respect. It cushioned the difference between classes at advanced levels of epic play.
* Epic spellcasting allowed for too much abuse and needs to be fixed, reworked, rewritten, or even redefined.
* Epic magic items got out of hand, specifically with the bonuses and their prices.
* Balance between the strength of the monsters and the characters is out of sync.
* Epic levels allowed access to a new circle of feats. This is fine but, as a minor gripe, I too did not like epic feats that later turned into non-epic feats.
* There never was enough epic psionic content. I didn't like the do-it-yourself magic-to-psionics conversion.
I don't think epic should equal godhood, perhaps a road to godhood, but not godhood. Surely not all, but even epic characters worship gods.
I wouldn't think that one would need rules to make the scope of their game epic. Epic in scope to one gaming group could be levels 12-15, while to another group is no less than level 18. These would be playing styles and are much more difficult to codify. But, I do think that to better handle challenges that are epic in scope, characters would need more power and/or control; how much power would be left up to the DM.
If one doesn't like the fact that the ELH rules allow for +infinity bonuses, saves, and levels, the only solution I can think of for that would be to apply a cap to it. Sometimes the cap says that levels don't progress beyond this point, or maybe it's once we hit this level, we start over at level one w/ different rules, or even saying that beyond this point is beyond the scope of these rules. That would be a deal breaker for me.
I like most of what Pathfinder has to offer, and I plan on buying it. Odds are high that I'll invest in the epic book as well, but I would be disappointed if that book were the only support epic gameplay received. I was truly looking forward to a Complete Epic.
Read thru the 1st page, but haven't made it thru the rest [yet].
To answer EM's original question, to me Epic calls to mind characters such as: Hercules, Achilles, Samson, Elminster, Conan, The X-Men, Buddha, and perhaps even Jesus (if we're talking about playing along-side a deity anyway).
In terms of mechanics, I think of Epic characters as all being 20th level. They still advance, but instead of gaining hit-dice etc., they instead gain other boons over and above what a character who has just attained level 20 does.
I see this as a new feat at every epic level — no HP, skill points, BAB or save increases, just a feat at each level.
Of course, when we are talking epic feats, you may very well be selecting from feats that increase your attack bonus, increase you spell capacity/max spell level, increasing levels of skill focus, additional HP thru toughness, and even increasing levels of supernatural and spell-like abilities.
Consider that Hector and Achilles might have both been 20th level, only the A-man had a stack of epic feats on top of that.
Another somewhat more complicated method I've thought about before is that Epic characters become Gestalts (sort of) upon hitting level 21. For each level they gain, that new level gets stacked along-side an existing level. The player then reaps any benefits for overlapping stats: perhaps rerolling that level's hit die, improving the 0.333 save increment in a poor save to the 0.5 increment of a good one, gaining a couple skill points, etc.
Of course, that's only feasible if you use a mondo spreadsheet that keeps track of everything (I do), but it's just another idea...
The current Epic Level rules are a mess.
IMO...
I think the above statement is almost universally accepted. There's always a draw to play the uber-powerful heroes against the most iconic foes. The problem with ELH was that, after progressing your PC for 20 levels, the new ruleset killed the fun.
I loved the D&D Immortals box, but I think that might be a step beyond epic... perhaps levels 40+. :) For epic, I'd see them as a progression from hero to demi-god (like). I'd like to see content and adventures that take the PCs to the edge of mortal powers, with an end goal of reaching some level of immortality.
For the rules, I would avoid any new systems (epic magic, for example). The more I think about it, I like the "epic class levels", somewhat like advanced prestige classes, building on iconic models. Meet the prerequisites and advance to "Epic Barbarian" 1 - no matter what your 1 - 20 class break-out is. This is kinda like the 4e epic model, love it or hate it.
Lastly, like some have said, if you renew the epic rules, support them! Adventures in the form of a PF adventure path would be fantastic! Perhaps a planar world guide tailored to those levels. That would be something I would love to play - and by focusing on other planes you can avoid "breaking" the material plane establishments.
Good luck! And if you need help, I'm available... :p
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I've never taken a group to epic levels yet, nor have I played to epic levels. That said, I've read the 3E epic level rules and... I don't particularly care for them. I don't like the idea that once a character tops 20th level, everything changes. Suddenly, you use a different mechanic for almost everything your character does. I would like to see new abilities come into play at epic levels, abilities that aren't just "an old ability taken to the X!". More than anything, though, I'd like to see good epic level support; adventures, hooks, fluff and the like. I want epic level rules that make me really want to get into epic levels!
1. What are you looking for conceptually?
Epic PCS must be able to forge their destinies. An epic pc isn't a puppy in the hands of fate (and DM), nor they are a group of idiot munchkin badasses.
2. What are you looking for mechanically?
A fast and easy way to bring my characters past level 20, without linear or worse increasing of power and overcomplicated math. I WON'T give apenny on a system tnat forces me to spend whole hours only to create a single epic npc. And it has to be balanced, with a precise niche for every role. I'd prefer a level cap, however. No infinite progression, please.
Finally, epic play has to be different from non epic one. Not a different game, but I'd like different mechanics.
3. If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
An open beta of course ;)
4. Any deal breakers?
All I said.
To me, Epic play is something like this:
You can make mythal-type things. You can cast a spell that creates a mountain in minutes. You can live forever. You can spam charm person on every sentient humanoid that ever comes within 100 feet of you. You live in a posh stronghold that spans several demiplanes that you created yourself. You have another mansion-sized stronghold that can earth glide, fly, spelljam, go underwater, greater teleport, and plane shift (it's your "RV"), or you can leave your stronghold to any point in the multiverse. You have an army of a few thousand soldiers at your command. You rule a small kingdom (or a few worlds). Your BBEG's are abominations (hecatonchieres), deities (Bane), cosmic entites (Cthulu), elder evils (atropos), planet-sized monsters (AD&D 2e MC9 stellar dragons), and other epic level NPCs.
Epic rules should be a simple extrapolation of non-epic.
1. No epic attack bonus or epic save bonus. Just keep the non-epic going.
2. Replace epic spellcasting with regular spellcasting for spells levels 10-19 at least; maybe higher levels. Make all the SRD epic spells regular spells with the appropriate levels. Make a repeatable spellcasting progression for casters.
3. The epic rules should scale out to infinite levels. This means hardening the CR scale, and that means as much playtesting as possible against as many levels as possible.
4. Incorporate epic into non-epic seamlessly mechanics wise (i.e. planar metropolis should be there from the start).
5. Make spell creation rules that can't be abused as easily as epic spellcasting.
6. Add some rules for ruling dominions.
7. And some rules for epic-sized battles (up to millions of combatants).
8. Don't put in the x10 cost multiplier for magic item bonuses beyond +5 for weapons, +6 for ability scores, etc. One formula for all magic items.
9. Keep the class features coming. It's boring if it's all just bonus feats and d6 more hp.
10. Allow prestige classes to gain levels past 10th BEFORE you go epic. It doesn't make sense to me to go fighter 1/wizard 5/eldritch knight 10/wizard +4 instead of fighter 1/wizard 5/eldritch knight 14, simply because you have to be 21st character level to take eldritch knight 11.
That's my input. Just extrapolate levels 1-20 out to 40 or 60 or whatever, with no sudden changes. I always thought that epic felt disjointed from non-epic because the whole game changes considerably at 21st level.
So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do. With that in mind, I'm very curious to hear what people think about the idea of play beyond level 20.
Well Mr. Mona, for me, epic = past 15th level. At this level, characters are already quite "epic." Beyond 20th they really should be actively in the planes, fighting demon lords, etc.
The word epic has been extremely misapplied in the existing rules, where making something epic seems to mean adding the word "epic" as a prefix. Please avoid this. In fact, if the only use of the word "epic" was on the cover or not at all, I would consider this a service to the English language. The same goes for psionics: don't just spam us with a word you think is cool until it's not cool anymore.
I think such a book should be 10% rules on how to play past 20th and 90% DM's guide. There's no point in creating such a thing unless the book makes it clear what these characters are doing that sets them apart from everyone else.
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Here are my suggested adjustments for 20+ (Epic) characters:
Basic Changes:
- Saves: Get rid of the Epic save bonus, just continue the Save progression as is.
- BAB: Get rid of the Epic bonus. Just continue the BAB progression as is.
These are nonchanges:
- Skill points continue to be accrued as normal.
- Feats are doled out at the same rate as before, but new Epic feats become available.
- Ability increase continue at the same rate as before.
- HP accrues as before.
These are big changes
- Create more Epic feats
- Create Epic class features, or improve existing features.
- Dump the whole Epic magic thing. It is awful. Instead let spellcaster keep adding additional spells (just continue the progrssions so they continue past the maximum, such as at 50th level a Wizard would have 10 first level spells instead of six. Also add more Epic metamagic feats so the spellcaster can really take advantage of extra slots.
- Adventures: 20-29 should be World Shattering adventures. Also, add a cool meta game where PCs in this range gain status in organizations so powerful they can direct their activities. I see this as similar to AD&D’s Birthright campaign. The PCs still adventure, but have another game they play around that.
- 30+ Adventures should basically ascend to the planes as these character are demigod like, running into Planar Dungeons. Then extend the metagame to the PCs controlling worshippers on the prime plane. Minor Gods would be the nobility of this level.
- 40+ continues this at a Minor God level, where other Minor Gods are allies or rivals. The Major Gods in this case act like the nobility.
- Make 50 the top level. Call it Major Deity and retire them if they hit 51, like they ascend beyond the planar level to an existence we cannot even match.
- Create Epic Prestige Classes
What I am trying to say is that the game itself needs to change scope at higher levels.
I agree with most of the ideas here, but I liked epic spells to a degree. I would rather see them pushed off to the side as a sort of option. I could see some spell casters getting interested in them, but not forced into them.
And while Glorion may not be epic, there are other worlds in the solar system with it that might be epic. I have always thought that perhaps a world of giants might make for a interesting jaunt for epic characters. Characters that start on a non-epic world should have a way to migrate to an epic world.
Also, don't invalidate my newly minted Pathfinder RPG book. I don't want a whole new system after I just got a system that just got fixed.
Seriously consider mixing in some stuff from the dieties and demi-gods stuff from the SRD. But as for retiring a character who just becoems a divine being, that's the begining, not the end. Just because you have a single divine rank, doesn't make you onmipotent.
Consider creating something that works as a replacement for currency rather than more gold than a planet can provide. Perhaps raw mana that can be formed into a bonus to a item or an actual item.
Get the Gods involved. If kings call upon characters 10 and higher, Demi-gods call on characters 20 and higher, and so on. Show players that they have steped up on to a higher stage. I presume that Gods and Demons have sway over multiple worlds not all worlds need to be fleshed out but adventures could move players to worlds devistated by epic creatures thant need to be brought back from the brink. This allows for devistating battles, but doesn't "Break the toys of Glorion" so much.
I took a look at the old Immortals set for the first time. It's amazingly similar to a system I had thought out myself. In my "system", XP = # of worshippers, which is reset to 0 after ascending to godhood. The "levels" of godhood would be worked into the already established ranking system (Demi, lesser, Greater, etc.). At each level, you have a certain amount of godly power you can use at one time. Gods technically wield infinite power, so this power system is more like, "how many tasks can a god do in a round?” He would have to devote so much of his attention/power to empower his worshippers (divine magic), form and power an avatar/aspect, to the # of actions that he can take in a round, etc. In addition, as written in the Deities and Demigods, their divine rank gives them certain bonuses.These are some ideas, let me know what you think.
Your ideas are quite good, but unfortunately they are (IMHO) more in tune with a 'God management game' (like the old computer game 'Populous', or the more recent 'Black & White') than with an Heroic RPG like Pathfinder.
I really do not envy Paizo for the titanic effort to create a playable Epic system; the old Immortal 'Gold Box' BECMI rules were not really playable, the 'Wrath of the Immortal' BECMI rules were more in tune with a super-hero system, and the Epic Level Handbook... well, we all know its problems (number crunching and all... I still remember a 2-sessions long fight against an Abomination Phane...).
I truly hope to see a High-level game system that works, but more importantly I would like to see a 'guideline' to suggest how to manage plane-shattering, world-saving adventures. This is the real issue, IMHO: when the characters are of a real high level, there is simply no more (manageable) things a GM can let them do. A 20th-level (or higher) character has the resources, the power, and the acquaintances to simply solve any 'mortal' adventure a GM throws to them - and, being human himself, a GM cannot easily conceive high-level, shattering, credible menaces to unleash against such characters (excluded the omnipresent cliche of 'abominable beast escaped from the darkest pit of unconceivable horror'...). And even a perfect (rule-speaking) system would lead to boredom, if a GM cannot write - or find - an interesting adventure for such a system.
Just my 2c.
Our group has never had a problem using the epic mechanics. While some of it doesn't make much sense (then again no large crocodiles is in the same boat) they still work. Our problem was a lack of material as you progress your characters get more and more options till you reach lvl 21 then you are stuck with 3 or 4 choices and you are done. Also having the epic adventures (particularly adventure paths) would make things alot easier - I can run a campain on the fly through levels 1-10 with only a sentence or two of plot but it gets more complictated as you level.
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What might be a good idea is how it was done in the first edtion. You didn't get more Hit Dice but you did get a set ammount of Hit Points for every level beyond 20th. This is why the module Throne of Bloodstone (I think that I have it right) was leveled from 18-100th level. In those days, there wasn't THAT much difference between the two. I also think that Saving Throws did improve all that much beyond 20th level either (I don't have access to a copy of my 1E Book at the moment so I could be wrong). So here are my suggestions:
- No more hit dice after 20th. Instead, a set hit point ammount of hit points per whatever level (One at every level for Fighters, every other level for Clerics et cetera)
- Saving Throws should be given a similar treatment
- Have 9 STILL the maximum spell slot but increase the amounts in each slot (See 1st Edition Magic-User spell progression chart for inspiration)
- Have the same class abilities that EHL had for the Epic Levels. The Players worked hard for them so why not give them out?
Anyway this is all that I can think of now but I think all of you can catch my meaning. :-) This rule set could have a 100th level Character STILL wet his armor at the thought of a Tarresque (did I spell that right).
Another thing, if there are any of the Epic Monsters that could be given the PfRPG treatment (In other words, OGL) then bring them on! Furthermore, bring on the Artifacts from EHL as well becasue if Epic level characters aren't going to be as powerful as they used to be in OGL 3.X, then they will need some help taking on one of the Hecatoncheries (are those guys OGL?)!
What are you looking for conceptually?
I see epic as demigod/superhero level play perhaps progressing into god level. Characters can do stuff that mere mortals are incapable of. Good examples of rules are White Wolf's Scion and Exalted RPGs and the D&D Immortals box set. Glorantha's heroes and superheroes such as Harrek and Jar-eel also provide good examples of epic level NPCs. I believe there are D&D stats in the Wyrms Footprints collection.
What are you looking for mechanically?
Some way to represent superhuman abilities in a way that isn't going to lead to lots of book-keeping.
Any deal breakers?
While I liked the monsters I thought the rest of the book was highly uninspired. The ELH treatment was just more of the same with a few new feats. Please don't fall into this trap.
I've read through some of the stuff and played a little epic 3.5 so my 2 copper..
First, avoid Immortals DnD at all cost. That was a god-awful system. The last thing I want to do after 36 levels of grinding and clawing my way to the top was to become 1st level again, complete with first level immortal goblins to kill and et cetera. Ew. You'll notice that when they put together the DnD rules compendium they omitted the Immortals rule-set and said 36th level = end. The whole idea of the heierarchy and combat was just annoying. And the "power points" system felt a little too much like spell points.
It "helped" that the Gazeteers brought out several 'loopholes' for the Immortals. Why bother clawing your way up through the ranks when you can jump into the middle of the pack and be the leader of all dragons instead? (at least thats what Wszebor did).
Having said that, the modules DnD put out for the immortals were much better, particularly the ongoing story line with the demon Alphaks. This was a story line which started when the characters were still a few levels away and continued through the lower immortal levels. Introducing a long-term nemesis is an excellent way IMHO to keep the party going. Actually the one long campaign I DMmed I had two parties which absolutely hated each other and we alternated between the two. The PCs essentially provided their own nemeses. (and later on lots of wars.. lots and lots of wars)
Playing high level PCs in 1st Ed wasn't terribly bad, but it did suffer from a certain amount of "beating down" a character because the weapon damage did not keep up with the HP. DnD alleviated that to a great deal by the use of weapon mastery skills. For example a grand master in the longsword did 2d6+8 dam as a primary attack and 2d4+8 as a secondary (not counting STR bonuses). he could also deflect any 3 attacks and attempt to disarm his enemy (save at +4). Lastly he could throw the sword 15 feet at secondary damage level. With being able to attack a primary and a secondary per attack and having 4 attacks per round a 36th Level Ftr could do 8d6 + 8d4 + 64 points of damage per round (assuming he hits) not counting strength bonuses. A good fighter could cut a swath through goblins and combats with high level NPCs turned into this sort of thrust block thrust block affair.
1st Ed magic users were great for one reason alone- there was no upper limit to the d6 for damage spells :) BOOM. 100d6 fireballs! (of course 1st Ed fireballs generally kicked posterior anyways)
Playing 3.5 epic (as a mage) at the 20 - 25th level pretty much meant just keeping to the same grind, but with a few new tricks up my sleeve. I enjoyed aspects of the epic spell creation, but found the rules to be confusing (which seed? why can't I find a seed to go with what I want? Is this epic or just a good high level spell?). One of the interesting things about epic spellcasters is that much if not most of what they do is behind the scenes - creating magic items, for example. Epic mages, at least, are a great source for non-epic quests.
I know what people are saying with the whole demi-god aspect, but I would seriously shy away from any sort of godhood. It's too big a jump and should be handled on a case-by-case basis. When I think epic hero, particularly the fighter-rogue adventuring kind, what comes to mind are the action movie stars. For example the sort of swashbuckling Errol Flynn type character able to keep ten people at bay with his sword fighting skills. Or your costumed super-hero being able to sneak around with thirty people underneath him. In movies / media like that there is generally that one moment where the 'star' is able to do something completely over the top and perhaps thats where epic characters should be able to focus. Like I said, I'm used to being a mage so I'm uncertain how that would translate over to the non-spellcasters.
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The current Epic Level rules are a mess.IMO...
I think the above statement is almost universally accepted. There's always a draw to play the uber-powerful heroes against the most iconic foes. The problem with ELH was that, after progressing your PC for 20 levels, the new ruleset killed the fun.
I loved the D&D Immortals box, but I think that might be a step beyond epic... perhaps levels 40+. :) For epic, I'd see them as a progression from hero to demi-god (like). I'd like to see content and adventures that take the PCs to the edge of mortal powers, with an end goal of reaching some level of immortality.
For the rules, I would avoid any new systems (epic magic, for example). The more I think about it, I like the "epic class levels", somewhat like advanced prestige classes, building on iconic models. Meet the prerequisites and advance to "Epic Barbarian" 1 - no matter what your 1 - 20 class break-out is. This is kinda like the 4e epic model, love it or hate it.
Lastly, like some have said, if you renew the epic rules, support them! Adventures in the form of a PF adventure path would be fantastic! Perhaps a planar world guide tailored to those levels. That would be something I would love to play - and by focusing on other planes you can avoid "breaking" the material plane establishments.
Good luck! And if you need help, I'm available... :p
I would suggest the following:
High Level Pathfinder--Weapons of Legacy-type crunch binding a high level character to an iconic item of his choice, allowing the character to gain increasing power beyond 20th level (But not HP, BAB, STs, etc.). Simply max out the character's progression at level 20, but allow them to apply their XP to improving their legacy item. (Think Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon).
Pathfinder Immortals--Port over the D&D Immortals Box Ruleset, leavening it with the Power of Faerun to create a path for roleplaying Demigods (Achilles, Perseus, Imotep, Roland). This needs to be crunch lite and allow for the character to truly break the baseline rules. I would again not have it represented as Level 21+ but rather Immortal Powers that are accumulated by sacrificing some monster pile of XP and satisfying other requirements (think Hercules Labors).
In both cases, do not treat anything above level 20 as if it is a simple matter of accumulating XP. All the monsters we presently have with a 20+ ECL are members of magical or godlike species (demons, devils, dragons). Ordinary races should have a 'level cap' (truly old-school concept that) of 20.
(For bona fides I can report having played D&D immortals, AD&D 1st through 40th level, and currently running a PFRPG Beta Game at level 15. The math IS a problem and the game design needs to assist the DM in focusing players on 'epic' not on linear mathmatical progression.)
The current Epic Level rules are a mess.
The way to make the game more mythic in scope is not to make it more bloated with math.
So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do. With that in mind, I'm very curious to hear what people think about the idea of play beyond level 20.
What are you looking for conceptually?
What are you looking for mechanically?
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
Any deal breakers?
I do a lot of writing, and naturally when you write stories as a gamer, you tend to 'levelize' your characters.
To me, the d20 system breaks down as follows.
1-6th - The 'human' levels. You are a Platoon. This is the area where Melee excels under the current rules. Your foes are mundane, hit points and AC are your best protection, and your foes are powerful but something a human can realistically beat. Your worries here are 'silly' things, like: Do we have enough food and water? Seek shelter from the snow storm. Will I survive this fight? how's my family? Do I have a couple grand around for better gear? Don't fall in the pit! Am I even going to have the chance to die of old age or disease?
7th-10th - the 'post-human' levels. You are a Fellowship. Video game levels. The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Your characters can now punch through walls, outrun horses, teleport across the world, and raise the dead back to life. Magic starts to dominate at this level in the rules, because magic has to be good at combat AND gets immense function and utility outside combat. melee characters have no such alternative, NOR do they have the standard resistance to such forces as is common in literature. In short, if all you do is fight and kill things, mere spells are not going to stop you any more then swords will.
These are the levels of the Local Rulers of Men. They are clearly better then normal people, with superhuman capabilities, but they haven't really gone past what normal people are capable of by much. They are still bound to mortal concerns. The key thing for these levels is I double the lifespan for characters that reach them, to really show that they aren't just normal mortals anymore.
Your worries here are: The coming army is large enough to take out the town? Can I solo this adventure/monster? If I die, is my body recoverable? Can I one-shot or nova this bastard? Do I have a million dollars around for my 'next' gear upgrade? Hmm, it's only a hundred-foot cliff...geronimo! Nah, the wall's only a foot thick..
11-15 The 'Superhuman' levels. You are a Great Master. These are the levels of people who control the fates of tens of thousands, or millions. They are clearly far beyond normal mortals in capabilities and skills, capable of routinely pulling off deeds that a mortal in perfect circumstances could not accomplish. The threats they face are broad and massive in scope, threatening nations, and in teams, the world. This is basically about the level the EXALTED RPG starts at. At these levels, lifespans go to five times normal.
Worries: A hundred million dollars? I can get ahold of it. Am I still on good terms with my cleric buddy if I die somewhere? Some army is trying to take over the country? Which country? You know, we could totally conquer that country over there. yeah, I can jump off the back of a dragon at any height and live. Giants raiding? How many at one time?
16-20 'The Superhero' levels. You are a Living Legend, so completely beyond the capabilites of normal people they have almost nothing in common with you. Spellcasters, especially showcase this, with the advent of 9th level spells. Melees...right. But even Melee combatants are going to yawn through fights with stuff that would conquer whole towns of lower level folks. The dreams and needs of common folk are just background to people of this level. These people are dealing with primal universal forces, able to look at planets and nations as just pawns in the hands of the Gods, and are looking to break free of that role and become players themselves. Lifespans are ten times normal here.
Worries: How many billions do you need? Something is trying to change the nature of magic. nature is rebelling? The evil madman is trying to do WHAT to the planet? I've got fifty million people depending on me, and you want me to take time off to do what? Gods, if I sleep in today, I just know some fruitcake is going to conquer the world.
21-30 Epic levels. Think Justice League. You represent an ideal now, and you stand in the way of anyone who threatens that. You defend the whole world. You can see the implications of the actions of gods and demons, and you dig your foot in the line and say 'no.' You change the world by the sheer power you have invested in yourself...you are NOT reliant on other beings to do so. Your enemies are those with concerns that span multiple worlds, times, dimensions, and you bring them down. You are nigh-unkillable by lesser beings, and capable of being a threat to the Divine themselves. For an EXALTED comparison, this is where you are telling the gods what to do! At these levels, you basically become Outsiders...you don't age or have any of the infirmities of mortals for eating, sleeping, etc, forever cutting you off from the needs and basic drives of mortal creatures. You are Eternal...but you are not Immortal.
Worries: You know, we should just extinguish that religion, it doesn't do anyone any good. Okay, it's going to try to eat the world? So, you need to sacrifice a million people to create an artifact? Now, exactly how do we go about killing a Divine power? Ten million people need to be involved in this ritual, no problem. Money? WHo needs money? My personal branch of the church is now the Orthodox, of course I can change the doctrine. No, no, go tell that solar the proper way to do things. Do you really need to have a sit-down with Dispater, everything tastes like rust around him.
31+ Divine levels. This is where Immortals rules begin. World creation, planar creation, hobnobbing with other representatives of cosmic forces, you are no longer a Fellowship or Adventuring Band or League, you are a Pantheon.
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Epic Rules should be set up in context with Mortal Levels. Mortal Levels are about Adventure. Epics are about building something and defending it against all comers, one way or another, or tearing down barriars that have been put up to let others follow behind you.
There should be an end to mortal lives and an 'ascension' to Epic lives. Even if they interact, it should only be in Epic circumstances. Epic people don't deal with trolls. Epic people deal with Epic threats, and raise up those under them so THEY can deal with trolls.
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Deal breakers: A city like UNion is NOT a deal breaker. Such a thing already exists in MMORPG's...we call it the City of heroes! When you are dealing with ALL of Creation...the multiverse, alternate realities, higher and lower dimensions, past and future, the number of Epics is nigh-infinite, even if they are restricted by world. An Epic City is not going to exist without Epic enforcement...there won't be any respect for the order there.
NO FR-type worlds where Epics are running around anywhere. Mutually Assured Destruction does NOT work when you are dealing with radical and powerful individuals, especially of Evil alignments. Such folk are arrogant and either do not care about consequences or figure they won't have to suffer them. It also means you ahve a continual "mexican standoff", where one tiny action would realistically explode into a shooting war that should have long ago taken out half the Realms and pared the number of powerful individuals way, way down.
NO pissing on Melees. Gods, I get SO tired of how Melee is shafted in the higher level game. Melees are THE best creatures alive at killing other creatures. Better then spellcasters. Spellcasters are the most FLEXIBLE creatures alive at doing things. Spellcasters can create demiplanes. Melees should be able to punch into them and put the spellcasters to the sword. Spellcasters can travel across worlds. Melees can stop them from doing that. Spellcasters can make mountains fly. melees can cut them out of the air.
More then anythign else, the idea of magic as be-all and end-all of power annoys the hell out of me, especially at high levels. Melees are supposed to be the dominant combat force at high levels, because combat is what they ARE. Casters support Melees, they don't overcome them. Casters take out armies and cities in one fell swoop. Melees take out armies and cities by the blade, by themselves...and the city-killing casters who run them, too.
Unless you give Melees clear dominance and ability against magic at high levels, this will simply NOT WORK. Casters will dominate everything. Unless you grant Melees abilities that magic CANNOT duplicate, and are useful for more then just combat, this will not work.
And unless you address the change in perspectives as characters grow, you'll never be able to properly 'set the tone' for Epic. Becoming Epic is more then simply level-gaining and being able to take on bigger and badder foes. It's being able to see what's behind the scenes, to recognize implications on a broad scale, an upping of awareness that goes beyond petty mortal concerns. Without tapping into that kind of perspective, Epic levels are going to fall flat as just more video gamer levels, with bigger swords and higher numbers, and that's all.
===Aelryinth
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Here are my suggested adjustments for 20+ (Epic) characters:
Basic Changes:
- Saves: Get rid of the Epic save bonus, just continue the Save progression as is.
- BAB: Get rid of the Epic bonus. Just continue the BAB progression as is.
This would be a terrible idea. After a few Epic Levels, because of the way things scale, classes with a high save never, ever fail, while characters with a low save can not ever save except with a nat 20, (which even then might not help). Same with base attack. In order for a fighter to be challenged, the touch AC would get so high as a result that caster would never agian be able to use touch or ranged touch spells. These things tend to start happening after maybe 4 or so Epic Levels.
What would I like to see?
An analysis of where the classes stand at 20th level, and then bump up the power, but for every amount you get, you have to give some up.
For example, spell casters at level XX now drop their level 1-4 spells to 4, with no bonus spells allowed. Instead, these spells are in effect cantrips. As magic-users grow in power, they can't bother themselves with the triviality of low-level spells.
The numbers game:
As far as math goes, we treat many things like we treat mass attacks. Instead of rolling 30d6, we look up an equivalent table. Instead, we roll 3d12 (reroll 1s until they are something else), and multiply by 10. Make some use out of the d12s! (Byproduct? Damage is always in increments of 10.)
Use d4s? d8s. d6s? d12s. d10s? d20s. Don't forget to reroll 1s.
Another variant? Simply do damage in 10s, rounding all the while.
Epic levelling options?
Extend existing. But providing actual abilities for others than just wizards.
Multiclass option.
Gestalt rules and options (low leveled characters with high ECL, doing higher CR quests)
Additional rules?
Assuming the new bestiary doesn't provide it, describe how to bump up monsters and NPCs to epic levels, but to keep them interesting.
What does epic mean to me?
Well two things: you have your epic campaigns, games where the themes and scope are universal (like Planescape...or anything written by Boomer). They are best played from first level, but thrum with the power of eternity. Anything dealing with Thassilon and their ancient city is going into Epic Campaign turf. This has nothing to do with characters who are superheroes, it has to do with themes and the revealing of much guarded metaplot secrets. I love this.
Then you have your sunset character epic stories. These are the stories of epic CHARACTERS, who have spent their entire lives fighting the good fight and are now concidering retirement--but something keeps driving them. They're in their fifties, or maybe older with white hair or speckled balding heads. Their bodies look like a greek statue of hard marble covered in an old potato sack made of scar tissue. These guys have family, wives and sons and daughters that pull them from the adventuring path to deal with problems at home. They have followers, orders of paladins who beg them to teach them what the real way is to serve the gods. They have organizations they may have started along the way, like the Harpers or the Pathfinder Society, that they must see along the way so that when they pass on to their destiny that their organizations will survive them. These are the legends we roleplayers pass on to the next generation. They're the Melf's, the Mordenkainens, the Elminsters. They aren't superheroes, they're real men and women who have earned a pinnacle of honor in a fantasy world and have peeled back the curtains to unravel a settings secrets.
Mechanically what I'd like to see is an end to the stupid, Exalted-esque definition of Epic. Epic guys can't track people across water, when they blink the Bifrost Bridge doesn't appear. They don't do stupid, unrealistic things.
That said, I would like to see them have their whole own progression, with flavorful new abilities that reflect the aging paragons of a particular profession. Their feats and abilities should feel less like superpowers and more like institutions.
I'd also like to see rules for running an epic game right from first level. I hate this idea that once you hit level twenty you suddenly end up in this bizarre world of only epic characters, where suddenly only now you can planeswalk or deal with immortal supergroups. I want my epic characters to be the big important characters in the same game setting, and I want my epic settings to be open to characters of any level.
Hi guys,
sorry about this but, id like to see something like in the MMORPG I play, AA (alternate advancement) to where you wouldn’t level past level 20 but you would gain AA points to where you could buy abilities or enhancements for your character.
It would be like continuing to level but it would be a little faster as you would need to spend multiple points to get some of the better things. Characters would be ably to buy things such as more hit points a higher attack bonus heightened magical ability or even greater resists. This allows for greater character customization and a way for characters to continue adventuring even after reaching level 20.
If I were to create the system, once characters reach level 20 (or even sooner) they would start gaining AA points as if they were a lower level (something like level 15) so they would gain AA somewhat quickly but abilities would get more expensive the more you buy into them,
An example would be something like an extra hit die, where the first level would be only 1 AA point but the second level/tier would be 2 AA and then 3 AA points. Abilities would have AA level/caps on them so a character couldent buy an unlimited number of certain abilities, but IMHO if a character really wants to spend something like 100 AA points to receive 1 extra hit die that is there choice.
Once again sorry about suggesting something from an MMORPG but one of the reasons I like this system is that it doesn’t just add more and more levels onto a character, it adds a lot more customization and the ability for more people to come up with cool abilities for there own campaign and it should decrease the amount of math involved as once you reach level 20 you stay level 20 and start adding special abilities onto the character. In the MMO it actually starts before the end level and the more basic AA are available sooner but the better and more powerful AA require a higher levels.
PS,
As far a legal things goes I don’t think it will be much of an issue as it works like a point buy system. The dev team would just be adding a point buy system on the class based system to allow for added customization, and the name could be EE for Extended Experience.
In my usual style of showing up after a few months' absence, reading the first page and skipping to my own opinion...
I'm gonna throw in with the "epic = demigod" crowd. Frankly I've always thought the power level in D&D starts getting out of hand when levels hit double digits! Wish and Miracle really should be the absolute limit of mortal power. Levels in base classes should stop at 20.
This doesn't mean advancement stops, or even that it stops being XP- and level-based; only that it changes focus. Ideas --
* While on a mortal plane, your total hit dice cannot exceed 20 and you cannot gain any benefits from class levels lost to this limit except for hit points and skill ranks. Starting at 21st level, you may choose to temporarily lose any number of levels from any of your classes to meet this 20 HD limit. Racial hit dice also count toward this limit and may not be lost (races with 20 or more hit dice keep all of them, but cannot keep any class levels). If you wish, you may reduce yourself below 20 hit dice. You may change your selection of lost levels by spending eight hours in uninterrupted concentration.
* You gain additional levels through experience as usual, which can be in any mortal class or an epic class. Epic classes do not grant hit dice, so their benefits are not lost to the 20-level limit. Epic classes would represent the various possible interests of a growing demigod; one might grant bonuses to physical attributes which carry over to the material plane, another might concern itself with the gathering and exploitation of worship, etc. Potentially this could be handled with epic feats as well, but I kind of like the idea that you have to choose between becoming more versatile (or outright powerful on other planes) through mortal methods, or immortal ones, with good reasons to choose either.
I have a similar but rather irrelevant rule for Faerûn, in that no one can take advantage of more than 36 racial hit dice plus class levels (or no class levels at all if they have more than 36 racial HD). Of course, the closest we ever got to that rule was 27th-level, but still.
I don't think 20 should be the cap. But there should be one. I suggest 36, since that was the cap in BD&D. I'd also like to see the possibility of ascending to demigodhood, like certain of the members of the Company of Seven in Greyhawk. If not actual rules for playing one, then at least advice on how to handle the transition.
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Epic means the next step in the how the game fundamentally changes as you level.
I've seen a system that "fixes" higher levels by making them just like lower levels but with bigger numbers. It isn't enough. I wouldn't want to level a PC for two years of gaming in a game that doesn't change.
Currently, I see 4 stages of play in DnD. The fragile levels (1-4), taste of power levels (5-9), expert levels (10-13) and do-the-wrong-thing-and-you-die-in-round-1 levels (14+).
I don't know what Epic levels should be like, frankly.
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I don't want a situation where the numbers just keep getting bigger (ie, level 21, level 40, level 75, whatever). Starting over again with Level Epic-1 through Epic-20 might be interesting, as would capping out at level 20 but having some means of continuing to gain new stuff. Maybe "epic prestige classes" that all PCs have to take to go past 20th level? So, there are no 25th-level fighters; instead, you have a Fighter 20/Warrior of Fate 5. Or something like that.
"Epic magic" should exist in the hands of player characters, but the current system is just plain terrible. A better system might be the old Dark Sun way: there is a set list of epic-level spells that casters can learn (maybe a feat to learn each new epic spell?) and if the character wants to come up with a new one, the player and GM have to sit down together to figure out what it does.
PCs should have a chance to transcend their mortal states, whether by transformation into a new creature type, becoming an outsider (with an option for PCs who have already become outsiders to become something cooler), ascending to demi-godhood, becoming a paragon of their race, or something similar. (Epic Destinies from 4E are actually a really good idea, and it's a shame that they just suck so much in execution.)
Bringing the martial characters into epic will be a big problem in some ways, and incredibly easy in others. Assuming that "epic magic" is difficult to take (the equivalent of a feat or something to learn each new spell), then the benefit of a martial character would be more open advancement. But if we discount "bigger numbers" as the point of epic levels, then the fighter/rogue progressions particularly become problematic. A possible solution might be to allow access to epic martial feat chains that offer benefits like "ignore all damage for X rounds" or "automatically succeed at all saves of one type for X rounds" or "all of your attacks are sneak attacks for X rounds."
There are a lot of possibilities right now, and the only one I can think of that I absolutely do not want is the one that's already been explored with the ELH.
Jeremy Puckett
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I agree with you on the Epic Destinies, but I'm also not a fan of 4E. I think a problem with the idea, however, is that not all characters will want to become outsiders, or deities, or demon lords, or whatever. If that was the scope of Epic Level Play, either it is weak and essentually a second alignment that you write and never use, (hey I'm an outsider), or good enough that those that don't want to change must anyway or become noticably weaker characters.
What I would normally suggest is that characters, races, etc. . . be allowed to overcome many of the restrictions that they have always had. I say normally, because well, later 3.5 material and now PF have already really did this. Things like allowing the rogue to sneak attack a golum, a wizard to train and cast in fullplate, a cleric to toss out positive and negative energy bombs like fireball, and fighters to take hundered of points of damage in one hit and survive.
That sort of thing is already allowed normally, so Epic has to be even more rediculous in what can be done. Something I would absolutely love is if skill ranks had a cap. Once you have trained a skill to 20 ranks, you just can not ever learn any more, so the only way to improve it is through other modifiers, which are rarer. I think that would greatly help when those epic characters have to make a dc 80 jump check in fullplate actually be something superhuman.
Another idea that might work well for an Epic Game direction is that the players themselves don't really get so much xp for adventuring as they do for maintaining some sort of community while they are called to adventure. The Fighter is a general, the Cleric a high priest that is both a political ambassador/councilor and also has an actual temple to keep running, the Wizard has a tower and apprentices. They have to both go out and slay dragon-of-the-week, save the world/universe/multiverse, and also make sure that their community is safe an functional. If the Clerics temple is burned down while he is out fighting above dragon, well, the deity just does have the faith in them anymore. The fighter not only gets demoted to peasant status, but might have some gear stripped away. In other words, they can't just ignor the rest of the world any more. Again though, this isn't such a good example of what to do for the entire Epic game, just a direction that could be included. Particularly if the factions are used.
As it is, however, I think we had best concentrate on making levels 16-20 playable and fun instead of worrying about level 21 and up.
-DM Jeff
Agreed
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It looks like my thoughts are duplicated here already but I think that levels 15+ are epic. I think that the epic feats should be moved down into that range. I think that were spellcasters get some of their most powerful spells in that range (spell levels 7-9) the non-spellcasters are squandering waiting to gain access to powerful epic feats. I think a lot could be done to improve this range. I don't think the game should end at 20 I think it should keep going but I think that mystical magical point where you are considered epic should happen around 15 not 21. When the spellcaster grabs that first 7th level spell the fighter should be able to grab that 1st epic feat to make him just as ridiculous.
Again I don't think the game should end at 20, after 20 just give everyone +1/2 BAB and saves and +1d6 HD (corresponding with BAB) and be done with it, they still collect Skill Points (perhaps a set amount and they should max out at +20) and feats as normal but all class features end. Class features can be improved with feats.
No new rules really have to be written. In fact these simple rules could have very easily been incorporated into the main Rulebook.
With the following rules above I think the epic feats is where you could make a whole supplement (along with a DM section and a bestiary). Make feats that give bonus spell slots, feats that give all manner of pseudo class features to those of a particular class. Again access to these feats should begin at 15.
So my vision of how an epic character would be stated out would be:
fighter 4/Wizard 16/epic 10 this would be a level 30 character. The epic levels would give +5 BAB and saves, it would give 5 more feats and 2 more ability boosts etc. And then of course epic feats would be available at level 15+. So this character could have up to 8 epic feats (15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27 and 29). Easy sweet and intuitive.