|
Adonis, Eros, Apollo, Baldur, Dionysus, Enki…
I’m curious if there are any male gods in Golarion who are associated with sexuality, beauty or even fertility. Not necessarily within their portfolio, but just by natural association. It’s common in the real world, but Golarion seems slanted toward a decidedly mainstream, western, division between feminine and masculine aspects. I'm not in possession of the main G&M sourcebook, but it wouldn't surprise me if the gods who would most logically encompass a good dose of sexuality (Erastil, Gozreh, Cayden maybe) are whitewashed in this regard.
I’m not intent on turning this into a thread about objectification or homosexuality, but the recent discussions about Seoni Santa, Shelyn and Calistria has me interested.
Which male gods are idealized men?
Edit: Double posty funkiness going on. My apologies if this creates confusion.
Gozreh is actually written up in Gods & Magic as alternately male or female depending on which aspect you're dealing with. She's a goddess when in relation to the sea and a he's a god when he's in relation to the skies or land-bound nature, if I remember correctly. There is a cool illustration of the two aspects reaching up a touching finger tips Sistine-Chapel style, with male Gozreh reaching down from a thundercloud and female Gozreh reaching up from the ocean.
I can't recall any particular sexual associations in the Erastil or Cayden entries but I could have just forgotten them.
Wow. Another thread inspired by the Seoni/Santa thing.
I think Asmodeus has got that devilishly handsome thing going for him...:)
That was in the double post thread, thought I'd move it here. Also I see him as a god of marriage oddly enough. And sexual dominance, no more so relationship and personal dominance.
Torag technically covers dwarven propagation and sexuality, though that's obviosuly not major among his human or otherwise followers.
Erastil, family and birth.
Cayden, drunken trists and the courage to ask out a beautiful woman, that whole swashbuckling, chivalrous hero thing.
Abadar, lawful marriage, leaves the passion of the bedroom to other gods just keep it by the book! :D
Irori -not so much- Idealised figure/man, but trancendant of sexuality.
Nethys, again not strongly, except for magic including acts.
Gozreh, do what comes natural, etc. A pragmatic yet wonderful in its own way approach, he also has a dual gender aspect so can cover many natural sexual/gender inclinations.
Gorum, numerous unfortunate conotations, a few, no most of which are deeply and blackly evil.
Zon-Kuthon, strongly into bondage. As in his article, highly sexual faith.
Norgorber, hehe its hard to know, but secrets and sex have gone together for aeons.
Rovagug, most of the worst of Gorums associations.
And we're probably all better for it! Good point though.
|
but Golarion seems slanted toward a decidedly mainstream, western, division between feminine and masculine aspects.
I would tend to agree with you with the sole exception of Iomedae.
That to me a female whose portfolio consists of ideals that are traditionally "male" concepts: chivarly etc, have always been ideallistically boasted by men.
Justice - has been dubbed "lady justice" true, but the rest of it have always IMO been more comfortably portrayed by male/men
Then again, a couple of the roles of the PC iconics in the core book that are "traditionally male" (paladin and especially Barbarian) are both portrayed by females, so it is a noticed trend. There are of course exceptions (Red Sonja, and amazonians for barbarians, and that ridiculous pathetic looking paladin portrayal in the 3rd ed PHB).
Robert
|
|
but Golarion seems slanted toward a decidedly mainstream, western, division between feminine and masculine aspects.I would tend to agree with you with the sole exception of Iomedae.
That to me a female whose portfolio consists of ideals that are traditionally "male" concepts: chivarly etc, have always been ideallistically boasted by men.
Justice - has been dubbed "lady justice" true, but the rest of it have always IMO been more comfortably portrayed by male/men
Then again, a couple of the roles of the PC iconics in the core book that are "traditionally male" (paladin and especially Barbarian) are both portrayed by females, so it is a noticed trend. There are of course exceptions (Red Sonja, and amazonians for barbarians, and that ridiculous pathetic looking paladin portrayal in the 3rd ed PHB).
Robert
I should have written, "the Golarion gods seem...". When dealing with ideals, the editors like to keep the sexier ones to the female gods. The iconics however (accusations of cheesecake aside) are a diverse crew.
|
|
Although I don't remember any of the write ups having much of a sex or fertility theme to them, the picture of Erastil has a 'Herne the Hunter' vibe to it.
The god of family and the hunt. Ok, there must be a plethora of tales about Erastil fathering offspring with widows, jump-starting families and sewing seed in a mysteriously respectful manner. Virility is strongly suggested between those two portfolios, and I don't think most goodwives would pass on the implications. There might even be a place for the concept of a divine cuckold.
I hope people don’t think I’m trying to cheapen the gods here. Adding a dose of sexuality just seems more holistic and compelling when it comes to god design. It’s so readily done with female gods, but the men…not so much.
but Golarion seems slanted toward a decidedly mainstream, western, division between feminine and masculine aspects.I would tend to agree with you with the sole exception of Iomedae.
I would add Sarenrae to that. From Ra to Pelor, Sun has often been considered male (vs. Moon female). Also the Redemptive and truth aspects.
But to the OP's point, I think the goddesses of Golarion are rather more compelling in general, and have a lot of the better/more adventurer portfolios.
To the specific point on sexuality, I don't find it overly skewed, but its there.
Director of Brand Strategy
|
The god of family and the hunt. Ok, there must be a plethora of tales about Erastil fathering offspring with widows, jump-starting families and sewing seed in a mysteriously respectful manner. Virility is strongly suggested between those two portfolios, and I don't think most goodwives would pass on the implications. There might even be a place for the concept of a divine cuckold.
I hope people don’t think I’m trying to cheapen the gods here. Adding a dose of sexuality just seems more holistic and compelling when it comes to god design. It’s so readily done with female gods, but the men…not so much.
I disagree. I think that a LG god with the family domain would wish to establish secure family units and the idea of a bunch of kids running around without fathers is much more chaotic than lawful. Just look at Torag's clan of demigods; they're all mothered by Folgrit and seem to maintain familial connections more than Zeus and his offspring did.
I think Erastil is more about Masculinity than Virility, if that distinction makes sense.
|
The god of family and the hunt. Ok, there must be a plethora of tales about Erastil fathering offspring with widows, jump-starting families and sewing seed in a mysteriously respectful manner. Virility is strongly suggested between those two portfolios, and I don't think most goodwives would pass on the implications. There might even be a place for the concept of a divine cuckold.
Local legends of that sort might involve women reporting amorous encounters with their husbands only to discover days later that their husband had died on a hunting or fishing trip or whatever. This unexplained encounter would always
In other cases, a woman whose husband is sick or dying or otherwise incapable of fathering an heir before he dies might have an encounter with her mysteriously revitalized husband, who manages to give her a child before his illness claims him.
In other protection of the family / community roles, children who have been orphaned might find hunted game waiting outside when they wake up, leading the community to the conclusion that the childrens lost parents are somehow still providing for them.
|
|
I disagree. I think that a LG god with the family domain would wish to establish secure family units and the idea of a bunch of kids running around without fathers is much more chaotic than lawful. Just look at Torag's clan of demigods; they're all mothered by Folgrit and seem to maintain familial connections more than Zeus and his offspring did.The god of family and the hunt. Ok, there must be a plethora of tales about Erastil fathering offspring with widows, jump-starting families and sewing seed in a mysteriously respectful manner. Virility is strongly suggested between those two portfolios, and I don't think most goodwives would pass on the implications. There might even be a place for the concept of a divine cuckold.
I hope people don’t think I’m trying to cheapen the gods here. Adding a dose of sexuality just seems more holistic and compelling when it comes to god design. It’s so readily done with female gods, but the men…not so much.
Interesting point, but if we're talking about demigods, they would hopefully inherit their father's acumen. A fatherless child who grows up to hunt for his/her mother with remarkable skill wouldn't exactly be a detriment. I'm imagining it more in a gift of strength to a family way, not in a crazy babymama way.
I consider Erastil a male fertility deity, and very paternal. Compared to the rather progressive other gods, he's almost sexist in some of the language used in his writeup:
Erastil is a fatherly mentor-figure, not one who
spouts philosophy but instead gives practical advice and
hands-on teaching. Stern but loving toward his mortal
children, Erastil is a protector and a provider. He
believes it is man’s duty to help others, cooperation leads
to friendship and safety, and if man respect the gifts of
nature she will sustain him. He loves old customs that
encourage strong family bonds, no matter how quaint
they are by modern standards, and enjoys hunting for
sustenance but not for sport.
He's old-school, "the man is the head of the household" sort of thing.
The god of family and the hunt. Ok, there must be a plethora of tales about Erastil fathering offspring with widows, jump-starting families and sewing seed in a mysteriously respectful manner. Virility is strongly suggested between those two portfolios, and I don't think most goodwives would pass on the implications. There might even be a place for the concept of a divine cuckold.Local legends of that sort might involve women reporting amorous encounters with their husbands only to discover days later that their husband had died on a hunting or fishing trip or whatever. This unexplained encounter would always
In other cases, a woman whose husband is sick or dying or otherwise incapable of fathering an heir before he dies might have an encounter with her mysteriously revitalized husband, who manages to give her a child before his illness claims him.
In other protection of the family / community roles, children who have been orphaned might find hunted game waiting outside when they wake up, leading the community to the conclusion that the childrens lost parents are somehow still providing for them.
I like all of this. :)
|
|
He's old-school, "the man is the head of the household" sort of thing.
Old-school, before the Aspis flagship incident of 3628 and the Duchess' Rebellion ruined everything! I swear to Abadar, it looked like Chelaxia was burning to the ground with all those bloomer bonfires. And now you can't even find a pretty girl who can make a decent crockfire pudding.
*mopes*
And now you can't even find a pretty girl who can make a decent crockfire pudding.
*mopes*
Perhaps it's time you learn to cook, don't you think?
Cayden Cailen's herald was a prostitute before he made her his herald and she's written-up as being bi-sexual and amorous with deities and mortals alike. She's so much hotter than Calistria that the Savored Sting needs to worry about losing her portfolio of Lust, if you ask me. (Of course I don't find Calistria particularly attractive or desirable, she seems like a shrew.)
That all having been said, while it does say he was just good friends with the prostitute who became his herald and the two weren't romantically involved, you can be pretty sure Cayden Cailen did leave a few prostitutes and barmaids talking about how they had been with a god. The only problem is Cayden was too drunk to remember them later and he never called.
Seriously though, I'd say Cayden has the whole romantic hero thing going on and has plenty of women who would do more than just drink ale with him.
(Sorry if I misspelled the proper names, going from memory right now.)
|
|
(Of course I don't find Calistria particularly attractive or desirable, she seems like a shrew.)
Everyone who has said something along these lines in this thread or another and is an elf, raise your hand. I'll wait.
...
Yeah, thought so. The Savored Sting is an elf goddess who embodies traits elves find desirable in their Goddess. She's not meant for stolid, short-lived, thick humans.
Agreed, also she looks like a bit of b+!+@, which is almost more important to her, and she may not inspire human lust in the same way as Cayden's herald, but I'm sure she has more, and I'd be afraid to say no.
Also ah friend of mine who's a little more into calistra's thing thinks she's hot, so she caters to her crowd, it'd be impossible to cater to everyone in so subjective an area.
|
|
Perhaps it's time you learn to cook, don't you think?And now you can't even find a pretty girl who can make a decent crockfire pudding.
*mopes*
Rubbish! If a man even touches a crockfire pudding pot he'll be struck blind. Everyone knows that. Set still has yet to fully recover his vision, and he merely grazed the ladle.
|
|
Set still has yet to fully recover his vision, and he merely grazed the ladle.
It's true, everything's all blurry. I just wanted to lick the spoon!
Having looked over the 'core' deities of Golarion again, both Abadar and Asmodeus might be considered themselves the patron of good husbands and the oaths of marriage. Whether or not that relates to fertility or sexuality isn't as clear, but 'wealth' could serve as a metaphor for fertility (or abundance), in the case of Abadar.
Both deities would have a set of clearly defined husbandly duties or roles or expectations (with Asmodeus having a much less balanced view of the wife's 'duties,' I'd expect, but also supporting harsher penalties for breaches of both wifely *and* husbandly 'duty' or the heirarchy of the family than Abadar). A wife who has read quite closely the relevant legalist minutiae could quite likely use the arcane rules and strictures of Asmodean 'husbandly duty' to manipulate her husband into some sort of breach that could end up with her getting the lion's share of his holdings in the divorce settlement. Husbands might have an easier time of it, so long as they very precisely followed the rules to ditch their wives, but the laws of the church would be slippery and some traps would be sewn into them that could end up biting either or both parties on the rear...
Abadaran matriomonial duties and expectations would be less byzantine and treacherous, and more iron-clad, I'd imagine. They might also be terribly, terribly stodgy and traditional, to the point of seeming hidebound, sexist and / or archaic, to the minds of Andoran freemen or elven society.
Between Abadar and Asmodeus squabbling over the 'god of husbands' role, Cayden Cailean's role as drunken lover-of-many, Erastil as patron of farming, family and the hunt and Zon-Kuthon's forays into sadomasochism, the current gods have the male side of sexuality covered, I'd think.
And, as I've mentioned in another thread, Calistia could certainly cover male sexuality, despite being female, what with all inject-the-venom / daggers / stings of vengeance motif. Ever since Corellon Larethian, elven gods have had a tradition of androgyny, so perhaps Calistia was designed with that thought in mind.
And, as I've mentioned in another thread, Calistia could certainly cover male...
This is definitely true. A sting as an analogy for sex has a lot of phallic implications.
It's true, everything's all blurry. I just wanted to lick the spoon!
That was me! Next time don't just sneak in my kitchen like a thief *sighs* ...men.
Not quite what the OP's looking for, but check out the Empyreal Lord Arshea (PFCS p 175). He/She is currently our only divine power with concerns specifically on physical beauty and sexuality.
Pudding witch!
Ooh no, you didn't just say that! I have some "pudding witchery" for you right here!
|
|
Pudding witch!Ooh no, you didn't just say that! I have some "pudding witchery" for you right here!
Ooh, yes I di'id just say that, you...you Varisian tent twirler. I know you think you're all butterscotch, but from where I'm standing I just see tapioca.
*snap snap* don't hurt meee!
Thanks for the lead Wesley. I'll be sure to look the lord up when I get home.
|
You know some sect somewhere in Golarion features Asmodeus/Abadar yaoi in their divine texts. I imagine the Darklight Sisterhood are big fans.
I consider Erastil a male fertility deity, and very paternal. Compared to the rather progressive other gods, he's almost sexist in some of the language used in his writeup:
Erastil is a fatherly mentor-figure, not one who
spouts philosophy but instead gives practical advice and
hands-on teaching. Stern but loving toward his mortal
children, Erastil is a protector and a provider. He
believes it is man’s duty to help others, cooperation leads
to friendship and safety, and if man respect the gifts of
nature she will sustain him. He loves old customs that
encourage strong family bonds, no matter how quaint
they are by modern standards, and enjoys hunting for
sustenance but not for sport.He's old-school, "the man is the head of the household" sort of thing.
I got a kind of "marriage is for a man and a woman; if they can't make a baby they're doin' it wrong!" vibe too, but I thought I might have been reading too much into it. I had read some bit about Erastil's under-the-radar political incorrectness here before getting the book, hence the possible reading-into. (though his church going kill-crazy on lycanthropes in Varisia probably counts)
Yeah, thought so. The Savored Sting is an elf goddess who embodies traits elves find desirable in their Goddess. She's not meant for stolid, short-lived, thick humans.
Maybe at first, but then she got syndicated. If she wants the humans' worship, which she does, she's got to appeal to them, too.
Maybe at first, but then she got syndicated. If she wants the humans' worship, which she does, she's got to appeal to them, too.
Yeah, thought so. The Savored Sting is an elf goddess who embodies traits elves find desirable in their Goddess. She's not meant for stolid, short-lived, thick humans.
As long as there are straight men attracted to women like Natalie Portman, Kate Moss, Shannyn Sossamon, and Keira Knightley, Calistria has no worries that there are humans who will find her elven beauty alluring.
As long as there are straight men attracted to women like Natalie Portman, Kate Moss, Shannyn Sossamon, and Keira Knightley, Calistria has no worries that there are humans who will find her elven beauty alluring.
Check
Uhm....*Check
Check
*When I see that woman, I want to do something with her. You know, the F-Word. Four letters, starts with f:
|
|
Both deities would have a set of clearly defined husbandly duties or roles or expectations (with Asmodeus having a much less balanced view of the wife's 'duties,' I'd expect, but also supporting harsher penalties for breaches of both wifely *and* husbandly 'duty' or the heirarchy of the family than Abadar). A wife who has read quite closely the relevant legalist minutiae could quite likely use the arcane rules and strictures of Asmodean 'husbandly duty' to manipulate her husband into some sort of breach that could end up with her getting the lion's share of his holdings in the divorce settlement. Husbands might have an easier time of it, so long as they very precisely followed the rules to ditch their wives, but the laws of the church would be slippery and some traps would be sewn into them that could end up biting either or both parties on the rear...
I'd actually think Asmodeus would have a relatively neutral stance on male or female dominance in any given relationship; the only important thing to him would be that one of the partners is dominant. Golarion doesn't seem to have the most strictly enforced gender roles, and I don't think Asmodeus would favor one role over another. In a Golarion society where females are dominant, Asmodeus would enforce that norm, and vice versa. I think Asmodeus likes specifics only because they are specifics. He is interested in the letter of the law, and not the spirit of the law, and thus doesn't have any overarching objectives as to which spouse would be dominant. As long as at least one of them is being oppressed, Asmodeus is happy. :D
I'd actually think Asmodeus would have a relatively neutral stance on male or female dominance in any given relationship...
Where Asmodeus has direct control over a culture you can expect to see a masochistic society, especially in Hell where he holds complete dominance. So far we can see this in his selection of lieutenants via the all male archdevils, though you can expect to hear more about his chauvinism in a few upcoming projects.
I hope this isn't too off topic but I just import the forgotten realms gods into the world. They work just fine in what ever setting in I am playing or running in plus theirs soo much info on them. We keep it pre time of troubles. no cyric no shadow weave(dumb idea) and plenty of "male/fatherly" figures to chose from but most all the player clerics are clerics of mystra so we have never had anyone do the whole father thing.
I can only remember 1 game in 20+ yrs of play that my character even got married and had kids. I did find out that I could use the spell limited wish to make sure that I fathered only males.
Does anyone else import or realign the deities of a world?
|
I have to say that I really like The Book of the Righteous from Green Ronin, for the detail its given the deities, and their associated churches.
I haven't gone thru all the Pathfinder material yet (I'm planning on getting the big Pathfinder book when the final rules come up later this year), because My one weekly game is 3.5, and it's staying that way, but I have liked what I've read, and this thread has been nice as well.
But the Book of the Righteous is the standard I use to compare other RPG deity writings.
~Donald
|
|
Does anyone else import or realign the deities of a world?
I never do it for established settings(if I'm running Krynn, I want Krynn's gods, etc.), but I did bring specific established deities into my homebrew alongside my originals, some of whom had new roles(Elistraee was the only deity of elvenkind; no Corellan or Lolth, for example).
I have to say that I really like The Book of the Righteous from Green Ronin, for the detail its given the deities, and their associated churches.
I haven't gone thru all the Pathfinder material yet (I'm planning on getting the big Pathfinder book when the final rules come up later this year), because My one weekly game is 3.5, and it's staying that way, but I have liked what I've read, and this thread has been nice as well.
But the Book of the Righteous is the standard I use to compare other RPG deity writings.
~Donald
It's an extremely well made book, but I could never use it as-is. Some elements just bugged me, like only player races having souls(I could be remembering that one wrong though. It may have been an in-setting theory rather than in-game fact). But as far as keeping the gods and their roles interrelated and the religions that came from that, it hit a lot of high marks.
Where Asmodeus has direct control over a culture you can expect to see a masochistic society, especially in Hell where he holds complete dominance. So far we can see this in his selection of lieutenants via the all male archdevils, though you can expect to hear more about his chauvinism in a few upcoming projects.
I'm wondering if you used the term(s) which you had intended to use, as I don't see a logical, direct connection between masochism, male archdevils, and (presumably male) chauvinism.
And I guess that the "upcoming projects" in question might include the Princes of the Damned vol. 1, or something in the Council of Thieves adventure path.
|
|
but Golarion seems slanted toward a decidedly mainstream, western, division between feminine and masculine aspects.I would tend to agree with you with the sole exception of Iomedae.
That to me a female whose portfolio consists of ideals that are traditionally "male" concepts: chivarly etc, have always been ideallistically boasted by men.
Justice - has been dubbed "lady justice" true, but the rest of it have always IMO been more comfortably portrayed by male/men
you forgot Athena, she was not only goddess of wisdom, but of tactics, war and civilization
Minerva, goddess of the hunt, and she actually preffered to hunt skirts than pants
Ishtar was a very combative goddess but also quite sexual, from there comes Venus
Valkiries were warriors and guardians of those who died, they chose the champions and the courageos to head to Valhalla
there must be others, but this are the ones that came to mind... so not so strange
|
|
Fortunately we are not going the way of a certain horror film where the male aspect of a Coyote God was so overly large they dragged on the ground...and inflicted terrible damage on any female "Recipient".
I do however disagree with Erastil being a Love God. A Lawful Good God of community with Paladins is likely to be considerable distance from the BEAR GOD of the Belgariad who serviced his followers directly as to make sure they would be in large numbers in the future...
In a primitive world the God of Sex is not going to be the Idealized Man. He is going to be Breeder and violator. The future "God of Love" will begin as "Shogo the Violator".
|
|
In a primitive world the God of Sex is not going to be the Idealized Man. He is going to be Breeder and violator. The future "God of Love" will begin as "Shogo the Violator".
Golarion is a post-apocalyptic world with over 10,000 years of nearly continuous civilization. If it weren't for the Starfall, they'd be in advance of us technologically.
I'm pretty sure that Erastil can, by this point, be a love god.
In a primitive world the God of Sex is not going to be the Idealized Man. He is going to be Breeder and violator. The future "God of Love" will begin as "Shogo the Violator".
Not necessarily. Remember, we're talking about a world where the gods existed before the humans, not the other way around. The gods created people, and the gods may have pre-existing modernish portfolios (like family, and vengeance), rather than evolving from base human feelings with different standards of what is acceptable or not.
|
|
the gods may have pre-existing modernish portfolios (like family, and vengeance), rather than evolving from base human feelings with different standards of what is acceptable or not.
This is an interesting thought, as it suggests that Gods have hidden Domains that will only 'pop' when humanity reaches a certain level of development, and presents the interesting Villain possibility of a mortal tampering to access those Domains before the world is ready for them, and the consequences. Imagine the look on your PCs faces when the Cleric of Brigh drops a Nanotechnology Domain spell on them, or Rovagug starts in with the Industrial Genocide.
Kinda how like in Civilization III, resource nodes for oil wouldn't appear until you had petroleum-based technology, nuclear deposits wouldn't appear until you had atomic tech, and so on. I like it. :)
you forgot Athena, she was not only goddess of wisdom, but of tactics, war and civilization
Minerva, goddess of the hunt, and she actually preffered to hunt skirts than pants
Ishtar was a very combative goddess but also quite sexual, from there comes Venus
Valkiries were warriors and guardians of those who died, they chose the champions and the courageos to head to Valhalla
there must be others, but this are the ones that came to mind... so not so strange
Ummm, don't you mean Artemis/Diana instead of Minerva? (Minerva is the Roman equivalent of Pallas Athena.)
But I'm with you on the other stuff! And you can add Sumerian Inanna as an equivalent to Babylonian Ishtar (okay, maybe not so much with regard to attitude/alignment, but they both have the "Love and War" portfolios).
|
|
Ummm, don't you mean Artemis/Diana instead of Minerva? (Minerva is the Roman equivalent of Pallas Athena.)
Athene herself being the Hellenic amalgamation of the Mycenean Atana potina, a specialized form of their Mother goddess; an Achaean warrior goddess who bore the titles Kore, Parthenos, and Pallas (girl, virgin, and maiden, repectively); and an aspect of the Cretan "Palace Goddess" who was known for her feminine intuition. These would all date back to 1700 BCE or older.
I have no doubt Atana potina (or her Achaean and Cretan counterparts) had ancestry in even OLDER Indo-European and Indo-Semitic goddess complexes. A case can be made tracing the Cretan goddess back to Ishtar (2000 BCE), and Ishtar to Inanna (4000 BCE), IIRC. Inanna was, herself, probably derived from either the civilization that founded Catal Hayuk in Anatolia, or the pre-Sumerian Ubaidians that inhabited Mesopotamia before the Sumerians arrived. This now puts us at a bit less than 10,000 years ago. :)
I can do the same thing for Diana -> Artemis.
Now imagine a world where the Gods actually participated in the formation of the world, and think about the transformations they'd have undergone! Some of the male deities *could* have been females to the Serpent Men or Elves; hunting gods can become war gods, or war gods can become gods of the city.