Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Since this idea was hatched some 300+ posts into the Paladin Upgrade thread I thought I'd throw this out as its own thread.
For those paladins who go with the divine bond (celestial spirit) angle, I thought it might be a nice idea to allow them to apply their divine bond bonuses to either their weapon or their shield (or both). I think a full double-dip would be too much, but I could certainly see splitting the bonus between them.
My suggestion would be to add an enhancement bonus to the shield (as you would with a weapon) or one of the following additional abilities: arrow catching (y'know, to protect your allies!), arrow deflection, bashing, blinding, fortification (light, medium, or heavy), ghost touch, reflecting, spell resistance.
And yes, I intentionally left off animated because animated shield SUCK!!! :)
I am all for this, split the bonus between them.
And what is wrong with animated shield? I really like it actually.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I am all for this, split the bonus between them.
And what is wrong with animated shield? I really like it actually.
I just don't like it. Never have. I know it lets you TWF/THF and still have a shield, but that is just blech to me. Even when I had a character use one I felt kinda dirty about it.
In the world of Jason, the heroic ideal of an adventuring shielded warrior involves that shield being strapped to his/her/its stout left (or whichever) arm; it does not involve his shield floating around in front of him on its little graviton rails.
Blech. Blech. And double-blech.
Hah, okay...to each his own on that one. Flavor for flavor.
Though I do love your additon of adding the bonded weapon bonus to the shield!
I like the idea of the Shield enhancement, but dislike spliting up the bonus. I rather like the idea of giving the paladin access to Shield, Mount or Weapon and having them choose 2 of the 3 options(each at different levels of course). So, I'm for double-dipping as getting a mount or enhanced shield might just give the paladin class the "oomph" it's been needing.I think a full double-dip would be too much, but I could certainly see splitting the bonus between them.
That could definitely work too!! I like the idea of getting 2 of the 3.
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I'm for it too, I think it's simplist to just let you choose between either shield or weapon when summoning the spirit each time, basically you automatically get the ability by choosing bond, but the spirit can only inhabit one or the other at any given time, allowing you to choose whether you want AC boost or Weapon boost each fight. I'm not for getting both at once.
Plus this would end the Enemys always trying to sunder a paladins weapon on sight, since they never know if its the weapon or shield that's got the bond. If they waste several rounds sundering both, well that's just icing on the cake since that's several rounds they aren't hitting your allies.
I'm for it too, I think it's simplist to just let you choose between either shield or weapon when summoning the spirit each time, basically you automatically get the ability by choosing bond, but the spirit can only inhabit one or the other at any given time, allowing you to choose whether you want AC boost or Weapon boost each fight. I'm not for getting both at once.
Plus this would end the Enemys always trying to sunder a paladins weapon on sight, since they never know if its the weapon or shield that's got the bond. If they waste several rounds sundering both, well that's just icing on the cake since that's several rounds they aren't hitting your allies.
I agree with you except that I am for both, with either splitting the bonus how you see fit or at some other level you get to pick up a second choice, picking from mount, weapon or shield. I really like this idea! But yet another area where it is not over powered, no reason to make the paladin only choose one.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I like the idea of the Shield enhancement, but dislike spliting up the bonus. I rather like the idea of giving the paladin access to Shield, Mount or Weapon and having them choose 2 of the 3 options(each at different levels of course). So, I'm for double-dipping as getting a mount or enhanced shield might just give the paladin class the "oomph" it's been needing.I think a full double-dip would be too much, but I could certainly see splitting the bonus between them.
Actually, you really don't have to choose, once you get to 9th level.
The often-forgotten part of Divine Bond (weapon) is that you can do it multiple times per day. It's 1/day at 5th, then again at 9th, 13th, 17th.
At 9th level, you can power up your weapon AND power up your shield.
Or your weapon twice.
Or your shield twice.
Heck, for that matter, if people didn't have the apparently deep-seated hatred that they do for the "pokemount" summoned from the celestial realms, Divine Bond would be very simple. You could use it to:
1. Boost your weapon with goodness for 1 minute/level
2. Boost your shield with goodness for 1 minute/level
3. Summon your faithful paladin mount for 1 hour/level
One ability, three applications, all paladinly.
BTW, I was going to ask the following question as a side note:
"Why are people so afraid of a paladin's divine bond weapon getting sundered?
With the DB ability, the paladin has the LEAST to worry about of anyone about his weapon getting lost/disarmed/destroyed. The juice he's channeled into it is temporary. At 9th level and up, his weapon gets sundered/destroyed, he just draws another weapon, Divine Bonds it up, and then goes to town."
But then I looked again, and it's that pesky restriction of 30 days of mourning or gain a level before you can use the ability again. Which is extremely lame. I rather like the heroic angle of the postulate above - your weapon gets blasted, you just summon that celestial spirit back and get back to smiting. The spirits understand that you're a WARRIOR and that stuff gets busted from time to time. They won't hold it against you.
Just my thought...
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"Why are people so afraid of a paladin's divine bond weapon getting sundered?With the DB ability, the paladin has the LEAST to worry about of anyone about his weapon getting lost/disarmed/destroyed. The juice he's channeled into it is temporary. At 9th level and up, his weapon gets sundered/destroyed, he just draws another weapon, Divine Bonds it up, and then goes to town."
But then I looked again, and it's that pesky restriction of 30 days of mourning or gain a level before you can use the ability again. Which is extremely lame. I rather like the heroic angle of the postulate above - your weapon gets blasted, you just summon that...
Honestly I think it has nothing to do with the weapon, I think it has to do with the Animal part of the divine bond, the weapon just got thrown in as a victim of the system unification everyone on these boards cries about. I understand if your horse dies having a mourning period (although it's lame because it's the same even if the friggen horse is raised.) but I agree that the paladin should be able to just Divy up a new weapon if one gets sundered.
But I love the idea that it's fixed by allowing it to be either or, I have this image in my head of when Roy from OotS had his sword destroyed. If he had been a sword and board pally instead it would have been classic, the lich destroys the weapon thinks his work is done, and the pally bashes the crap out of him with his (as it turns out) divy'd shield.
Also I disagree I think it is unbalanced to have both weapon and shield going up at the same time, and it also discourages alternate paladins like the TWF or the THF. Why would you choose either of those if it meant loosing out on half your abilities bonus.
But then I looked again, and it's that pesky restriction of 30 days of mourning or gain a level before you can use the ability again. Which is extremely lame. I rather like the heroic angle of the postulate above - your weapon gets blasted, you just summon that celestial spirit back and get back to smiting. The spirits understand that you're a WARRIOR and that stuff gets busted from time to time. They won't hold it against you.
Just my thought...
This is another one of those, give the paladin but be careful you dont hurt anyone's feelings because you gave the paladin something so we have to take something away or put another restriction on it ideas. I am sorry, there are just to many people that scream "the paladin is to powerful" even though they dont want to play one because they can not play the restrictions....THAT is why the paladin looks over powered (or SHOULD look over powered) at first look, because they have many other things holding them back and so many of their bonuses are so situational!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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"Why are people so afraid of a paladin's divine bond weapon getting sundered?With the DB ability, the paladin has the LEAST to worry about of anyone about his weapon getting lost/disarmed/destroyed. The juice he's channeled into it is temporary. At 9th level and up, his weapon gets sundered/destroyed, he just draws another weapon, Divine Bonds it up, and then goes to town."
But then I looked again, and it's that pesky restriction of 30 days of mourning or gain a level before you can use the ability again. Which is extremely lame. I rather like the heroic angle of the postulate above - your weapon gets blasted, you just summon that...
Honestly I think it has nothing to do with the weapon, I think it has to do with the Animal part of the divine bond, the weapon just got thrown in as a victim of the system unification everyone on these boards cries about. I understand if your horse dies having a mourning period (although it's lame because it's the same even if the friggen horse is raised.) but I agree that the paladin should be able to just Divy up a new weapon if one gets sundered.
But I love the idea that it's fixed by allowing it to be either or, I have this image in my head of when Roy from OotS had his sword destroyed. If he had been a sword and board pally instead it would have been classic, the lich destroys the weapon thinks his work is done, and the pally bashes the crap out of him with his (as it turns out) divy'd shield.
Also I disagree I think it is unbalanced to have both weapon and shield going up at the same time, and it also discourages alternate paladins like the TWF or the THF. Why would you choose either of those if it meant loosing out on half your abilities bonus.
I don't mind that so much, since we already have classes that give you oodles of juice if you use TWF (rogue, ranger) or THF (fighter, barbarian). Shouldn't at least ONE class have class abilities that synergize nicely with good old sword & board?
Also, as far as missing out:
1. It's only a potential miss-out from 9th level on. Before that, you only get one a day.
2. You can still use a buckler to juice up with divine bond, if you want to use it with bow, TWF, or a weapon you can use one or two-handed.
3. It is a limited resource. If you use 2 uses to do weapon and shield, that's great for the one or two combats you squeeze in during the powers' duration. Once it runs out, you may be done for the day.
If you just do it on your weapon, you have another use in reserve for later on when an hour later you run into another encounter, or when all of a sudden you get jumped by an entirely different set of monsters against whom your previous divine bond isn't so great, and you want to reconfigure your divine bond to bring the pain to the new targets.
Y'know, you went in with keen flaming burst against the frost giants but then you run up against a frost giant priest with a bunch of undead minions using mass resist energy (fire), you might like to be able to spend an action and switch up your weapon to something more killerific.
I think there is still a ton of utility whether you ever use the shield factor or not.
I don't mind that so much, since we already have classes that give you oodles of juice if you use TWF (rogue, ranger) or THF (fighter, barbarian). Shouldn't at least ONE class have class abilities that synergize nicely with good old sword & board?Also, as far as missing out:
1. It's only a potential miss-out from 9th level on. Before that, you only get one a day.
2. You can still use a buckler to juice up with divine bond, if you want to use it with bow, TWF, or a weapon you can use one or two-handed.
3. It is a limited resource. If you use 2 uses to do weapon and shield, that's great for the one or two combats you squeeze in during the powers' duration. Once it runs out, you may be done for the day.
If you just do it on your weapon, you have another use in reserve for later on when an hour later you run into another encounter, or when all of a sudden you get jumped by an entirely different set of monsters against whom your previous divine bond isn't so great, and you want to reconfigure your divine bond to bring the pain to the new targets.
Y'know, you went in with keen flaming burst against the frost giants but then you run up against a frost giant priest with a bunch of undead minions using mass resist energy (fire), you might like to be able to spend an action and switch up your weapon to something more killerific.
I think there is still a ton of utility whether you ever use the shield factor or not.
I agree here, you are not missing out if you want to use TWF or THF, you get bonuses from that alone. I love this idea, and I like your explaination of switching it up for the situation.
I am still on lin with the idea that the divine bond should have 3 forms, you should get to pick 1 at 5 and then another one sometime later on, maybe 9th?
I also like Robert Brambleys idea that the bond hould not have to be the full paladin level of minutes per usage (this might mess with the times per day that you can summon it, im not sure) but I want it to be usable in more encounters than it currently is. Right now it is good for one (more at later levels, takes a VERY long time for that). But then again if it was for my weapon AND my shield I would not have a problem with this.
Then I dont think you should in turn have to use 2 uses of your only 2 uses a day to power both abilities, not necessary.
This also goes for if you dont want to use a shield then pick the mount as your other bond, done and done!
I really like this idea. I would love to see it implimented. However, I would want to apply it to the paladin's armor, not his sheild.
I'm more with shield for theme and the ideals the shield represents over armor.
I would like a Minutes per day or Rounds per day that can be split up on the divine weapon bonus, so at fifth level I'm not stuck going well I did it once so now I'm done.
The house sticks around for 5 hours which is most of an adventuring day. The once a day level number of minutes thing kind of leads more to the fifteen minute adventuring day again and I think we want to avoid that.
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I'm more with shield for theme and the ideals the shield represents over armor.
I would like a Minutes per day or Rounds per day that can be split up on the divine weapon bonus, so at fifth level I'm not stuck going well I did it once so now I'm done.
The house sticks around for 5 hours which is most of an adventuring day. The once a day level number of minutes thing kind of leads more to the fifteen minute adventuring day again and I think we want to avoid that.
Actually the horse is always with you now (Jason changed it) and several times per day depending on level the paladin may summon it to himself via a teleport.
...That's odd and kind of hokey but I can see it all the same...
But that kind of puts the divine weapon at even more of a disadvantage IMO especially at lower levels (kind of like smite at level 1).
But I think these are fairly minor thinks compared to the complete overhaul and improvement the paladin has gotten.