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interesting discussion here:
my experience with mounts in dungeons:
My current druid (Druid 10 / Beastmaster 1) doesn't go anywhere without his direwolf. thats a given to the party as well, since he's one of the primary damage dealers (bardic music + girallon's blessing is a beautiful thing).
That being said, he has the handle animal (+19 or so IIRC) to make him do things he may not want to and bonus tricks to compensate without resorting to pushing.
He also has Reduce Animal prepared (lasts hours/lvl) in case there's a need for small-passageway-navigation. if the medium mount can't fit, the rest of the human/dwarven party won't either.
so, he became more of a party-member than your average mount, anyways
The second member of that party with a mount (now deceased paladin) had a flying mount (pegasus) and would usually NOT summon it when going through a long interior dungeon segment. when outside or going from point to point, the mount was always in play, so there were some "raid the castle" type adventures that resulted in a pegasus being inside a building. most often, however, he was left outside or simply un-summoned.
-t
Another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a half ling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign) may be allowed as well.I nearly fell of my chair laughting when I discovered this. I'm pretty sure Jason is a fan of Rich Burlew's Order of the Stick and the addition of the shark was mostly intended as a pun to this strip.
Yes, a bit more diversity in the choice of the paladins mount would be nice. How about adding some sort of favored mount(s) to each deity? A dwarven paladin of some propper dwarven deity should imho ride on a large lizard and not on a stupid needs-to-be-chopped-at-the-knees-to-have-the-right-height horse.
War Goat. Think either big horned sheep or mountain goats from the rocky mountains. My dwarven paladin HATES horses, so the DM and I came up with some stats for a domestically bred mountain goat for size and agressivness. There is a Brixa at the back of races of the wild that we made large and there you go.
Amen!
Seriously, though, that sounds great...Besides different Mount Types, I'd also like to see more unique ways it scales:
Different than Animal Companions or Familiars, but overlapping with both where it makes sense.
Sharing the Paladins' buffs and Class saves/ immunities is a great start...
Ideally, the Mount should synergize with both the Paladin's Martial Combat AND Divine Spells/ Powers,
while being especially potent against/protected from Evil/ Extraplanar Enemies.
What I've done with my dwarven paladin's war goat is apply templates to the base creature as I've gained levels. the total CR for the mount cannot be greater than your level-2. The system seems to work well into the low teens. Right now I'm 9th level and my War goat has been made dire (cr 3) half celestrial (cr 2 +1 for flying) and the warbeast template (cr 1).
By rule, horses make no more noise than any other creature... Horses are Large and suffer -4 to Stealth, so now their base Stealth is -3. (we should note that this penalty also applies to ANY large creature, including tigers, polar bears, rhinoceri, giant crocodiles, dire wombats, and all the rest) Not great, fair enough, but hardly an auto-detect for any monster. For that matter, any character in your party wearing medium/heavy armor (with a probably low DEX) is going to make a frak of a lot more noise than your horse is.
If your campaign features magically-stealthful horses, OK, I understand that's certainly not any crazier than people who throw fireballs. If I were one of your players, I wouldn't complain.
On the other hand... why do the rules assume that? Is there any good reason, or is it simply an oversight? I mean, have you ever actually heard a horse clopping along a stone floor through a tunnel? As DM, I'd (with clear notice) give iron horseshoes on a stone floor a -15 to the Listen DC, for starters, unless someone could give me a compelling reason why in-game horses are so much quieter and so much more agile than their real-life relatives. When the rules make no sense, I feel free to houserule contrariwise.
P.S. If we argue rules-as-written only, most dungeon doors are only 5 ft. wide...
By rule, horses make no more noise than any other creature... Horses are Large and suffer -4 to Stealth, so now their base Stealth is -3. (we should note that this penalty also applies to ANY large creature, including tigers, polar bears, rhinoceri, giant crocodiles, dire wombats, and all the rest) Not great, fair enough, but hardly an auto-detect for any monster. For that matter, any character in your party wearing medium/heavy armor (with a probably low DEX) is going to make a frak of a lot more noise than your horse is.If your campaign features magically-stealthful horses, OK, I understand that's certainly not any crazier than people who throw fireballs. If I were one of your players, I wouldn't complain.
On the other hand... why do the rules assume that? Is there any good reason, or is it simply an oversight? I mean, have you ever actually heard a horse clopping along a stone floor through a tunnel? As DM, I'd (with clear notice) give iron horseshoes on a stone floor a -15 to the Listen DC, for starters, unless someone could give me a compelling reason why in-game horses are so much quieter and so much more agile than their real-life relatives. When the rules make no sense, I feel free to houserule contrariwise.
P.S. If we argue rules-as-written only, most dungeon doors are only 5 ft. wide...
LOL. That is true. If we're going to argue that the simulationist rules are wrong, then the simutationist rules that a horse can be as stealthy as a human are wrong too, aren't they? Is 'sneak' even a trick? I mean, sure, intelligent mounts could do it, but a normal horse?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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By rule, horses make no more noise than any other creature... Horses are Large and suffer -4 to Stealth, so now their base Stealth is -3. (we should note that this penalty also applies to ANY large creature, including tigers, polar bears, rhinoceri, giant crocodiles, dire wombats, and all the rest) Not great, fair enough, but hardly an auto-detect for any monster. For that matter, any character in your party wearing medium/heavy armor (with a probably low DEX) is going to make a frak of a lot more noise than your horse is.If your campaign features magically-stealthful horses, OK, I understand that's certainly not any crazier than people who throw fireballs. If I were one of your players, I wouldn't complain.
No, they're not magically stealthy. They are exactly as stealthy as any other size Large creature with a 13 Dex.
Also, the loud horse hooves problem, to the extent that it exists, is the easiest problem to fix with a Stealth-boosting skill item, or, better still horseshoes of a zephyr which are pretty cheap at 6000 gp an resolve every footing-related issue (they ignore unstable surfaces, can walk on water, and their hooves don't actually touch the ground so they effectively make no noise).
Perhaps the rule solution is to rule that horses (and any creature with hooves) have a racial -10 penalty to Stealth checks indoors. That would presumably have to apply to minotaurs and other hooved monsters as well.
So the point is:
If you get the above horseshoes or stealth item, or assume there are not specific anti-horse rules about Stealth (which at present there are not), we have conquered the notion that horses are a monster magnet of epic proportions.
Now is it okay to bring the horse in the dungeon?
On the other hand... why do the rules assume that? Is there any good reason, or is it simply an oversight? I mean, have you ever actually heard a horse clopping along a stone floor through a tunnel? As DM, I'd (with clear notice) give iron horseshoes on a stone floor a -15 to the Listen DC, for starters, unless someone could give me a compelling reason why in-game horses are so much quieter and so much more agile than their real-life relatives. When the rules make no sense, I feel free to houserule contrariwise.
As well you should. But as we are working through a playtest, why not just consider the problem and actually fix the rule.
You are suggesting that a horse walking is not only substantially louder than a battle with shouts and screams and cries of pain and metal ringing on metal (at -10), but also incredibly louder than an armored person walking (5). Have you ever heard a person in full armor clomping along a stone floor through a tunnel? As Gene Autry sang, "I got them spurs that go jingle jangle jingle... " Guys in the middle ages weren't walking around with rubber-soled sneakers. Combat-grade boots, greaves, and all the rest weren't exactly stealth gear when they hit the stone floor either.
I've been around horses a good bit, and they do make noise walking on dirt and grass and they make more noise walking on asphalt pavement and cobblestones. But not more noise than a riot, or a car driving by.
Perhaps the house rule you're looking for is one that penalizes stealth based on the surface you're walking on. Dirt gives a bonus or stone gives a penalty, either way. Or perhaps like swimming the armor check penalty to Stealth is doubled on a stone floor.
P.S. If we argue rules-as-written only, most dungeon doors are only 5 ft. wide...
Depends on the module you're running, of course, but sometimes you're right. Maybe even often.
That means the horse can move through it at half speed by squeezing. Since the horse has plenty of movement (50), he can afford to burn 20 squeezing through a door and still be moving as fast as (or faster than) the rest of the party. Now if the horse is STUCK while squeezing, then the horse has problems - squeezing is a bad combat position. That's why anyone wanting to mount up should probably take Trample or have their mount learn Improved Overrun or Improved Bull Rush (yes, animals get feats as they go up in HD) so you can hulk enemies outta your way.
Anyway, none of this answers the question of whether horses are easier or harder to manage in dungeons than giant crocodiles, tigers, dire lions, or any other Large creature.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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LOL. That is true. If we're going to argue that the simulationist rules are wrong, then the simutationist rules that a horse can be as stealthy as a human are wrong too, aren't they? Is 'sneak' even a trick? I mean, sure, intelligent mounts could do it, but a normal horse?By rule, horses make no more noise than any other creature... Horses are Large and suffer -4 to Stealth, so now their base Stealth is -3. (we should note that this penalty also applies to ANY large creature, including tigers, polar bears, rhinoceri, giant crocodiles, dire wombats, and all the rest) Not great, fair enough, but hardly an auto-detect for any monster. For that matter, any character in your party wearing medium/heavy armor (with a probably low DEX) is going to make a frak of a lot more noise than your horse is.If your campaign features magically-stealthful horses, OK, I understand that's certainly not any crazier than people who throw fireballs. If I were one of your players, I wouldn't complain.
On the other hand... why do the rules assume that? Is there any good reason, or is it simply an oversight? I mean, have you ever actually heard a horse clopping along a stone floor through a tunnel? As DM, I'd (with clear notice) give iron horseshoes on a stone floor a -15 to the Listen DC, for starters, unless someone could give me a compelling reason why in-game horses are so much quieter and so much more agile than their real-life relatives. When the rules make no sense, I feel free to houserule contrariwise.
P.S. If we argue rules-as-written only, most dungeon doors are only 5 ft. wide...
Well, we're mostly talking paladin mounts here, so they are super-intelligent, but it's a moot point. "Sneak" doesn't need to be a trick. You move half speed (25' for a horse, about the same as your typical adventuring party), you suffer no penalty to Stealth.
In fact, that's another point where horses in the game are pretty similar in stealth to adventurers: Because they have a higher speed, they can move at half speed (no penalty) while the PCs are moving at full speed (taking a -5 penalty), which pretty much equilibrates the -4 size penalty the horse takes to Stealth.
So, typical 5th-level paladin's horse moving 25' = 13 Dex (+1), Large (-4), half speed (0), masterwork chain chirt barding (-1) = -4 to Stealth.
Typical 5th-level paladin moving 20' = 12 Dex (+1), Medium (0), full speed (-5), magic/masterwork full plate & shield (-6) = -10 to Stealth.
Even if the paladin maxed out his Stealth ranks (fat chance) he'd still be behind the horse.
Ironically, the paladin would be MORE stealthy riding the horse (cuz then he doesn't take the movement penalty to Stealth) than he would walking the same speed on foot. And he still wouldn't be as stealthy as the horse.
Jason, I can see where you're coming from: in the RAR, horses are nearly as agile and as stealthy as tigers. In real life, they aren't. Maybe the solution is to add/alter rules: penalties for surfaces/hooves/horseshoes; reduction to the horse's base Dex score, etc. Those would be great additions for a Complete Animal Companions and Mounts supplement. They seem a bit corner-case for the core rules to spell out in detail, though, for as long as the paladin's steed is a vanishing "pokemount." As referenced in another thread, by the RAR, giants cannot die by falling off of thousand-foot cliffs, either -- nor can they even break a leg doing so. Some things aren't going to come up often enough to need a rule, so when they do come up, they require some adjudication by the DM.
Now, if paladins keep their horses all day, and if the mounts are good enough to provide an advantage in dungeons, then (a) horses in dungeons go from being a corner-case to being commonplace; and therefore (b) some guidelines better than the current ones are definitely needed.
Well, we're mostly talking paladin mounts here, so they are super-intelligent, but it's a moot point. "Sneak" doesn't need to be a trick. You move half speed (25' for a horse, about the same as your typical adventuring party), you suffer no penalty to Stealth.
Huh? Are you saying that you're automatically being sneaky just by moving slow? I can walk half as fast but still make noise. I'm pretty sure there's more to it, and, I have limited experience with horses, but I think it'd be a hard thing to teach them to do. I also don't think that's written in the book and, if it is, that's stupid.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Huh? Are you saying that you're automatically being sneaky just by moving slow? I can walk half as fast but still make noise. I'm pretty sure there's more to it, and, I have limited experience with horses, but I think it'd be a hard thing to teach them to do. I also don't think that's written in the book and, if it is, that's stupid.Well, we're mostly talking paladin mounts here, so they are super-intelligent, but it's a moot point. "Sneak" doesn't need to be a trick. You move half speed (25' for a horse, about the same as your typical adventuring party), you suffer no penalty to Stealth.
Stealth is a skill that can be used untrained. By anyone or anything. Even mindless creatures like vermin can be quiet. Your stealth check is your Dex check and your size modifier. Someone trying to hear you has to beat that with a perception check. Stealth sets the DC.
That's why the default DC to hear an unarmored person walking is 10.
A typical person has DEX 10 (no modifer), no armor (no modifier), and is walking each round (moving only its normal speed instead of double-moving each round) (no modifier). = DC 10
The sample "armored person walking" DC assumes the same defaults but generalizes to a typical -5 penalty for armor check.
Sure, you CAN make as much noise as you want (talking, banging your stuff together, whatever); Stealth refers to if all you're doing is walking, not trying to be loud on purpose.
In the rules, if you move your full move, you take -5 to Stealth. If you move at half speed you take no penalty to Stealth.
It's all right there in the book.
I also don't think that's written in the book and, if it is, that's stupid.It's all right there in the book.
Maybe we need to all decide on
(a) Which RAW exist and make sense;(b) Which RAW are lacking/make no sense, but aren't worth adding/changing; and
(c) Which RAW are lacking/make no sense, and need to be added/changed.
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Huh? Are you saying that you're automatically being sneaky just by moving slow? I can walk half as fast but still make noise. I'm pretty sure there's more to it, and, I have limited experience with horses, but I think it'd be a hard thing to teach them to do. I also don't think that's written in the book and, if it is, that's stupid.Well, we're mostly talking paladin mounts here, so they are super-intelligent, but it's a moot point. "Sneak" doesn't need to be a trick. You move half speed (25' for a horse, about the same as your typical adventuring party), you suffer no penalty to Stealth.
Um you can easily put wrappings over a horses foot to muffle the noise made by their horseshoes, it in essence makes them sound the same on dirt as they do in a dungeon. So the noise issue even if it exists is easily reduced and since the paladins mount is intelligent it can step lightly to make less noise.
As a simulationist I have to agree that the paladins mount can in fact go into a dungeon as long as the cieling isn't to low. However there are things that will make it stop that while they aren't features of every dungeon do make taking a horse in there less palatable because you wouldn't want to have to leave your horse alone in the middle of the dungeon.
These are ledges that you have to climb up or down to advance. sometimes hallways are small tunnels that are less than 5 feet, a medium creature could squeze through but a large one couldn't. These are issues that can be resolved though, As one poster said, reduce animal (if you have access to it) would allow your horse to squeeze through such spaces, spider climb would bypass surfaces that require climbing. So if the party is prepared and ready to deal with such situations then no there is no reason they can't take the horse into the dungeon. For some groups though that is more hassle than it's worth so they can just leave the horse at the door.
Other than those issues then the only things affecting horses are the same things that would prevent any quadraped or large animal from going in, and a clever party with the right spells/items can take the horse with them if it is important to them.
A normal horse though, good luck.
Hey there all,
I am seriously considering a large change to the paladin mount, moving it back to its roots a bit. This would mean that it would work quite a bit more like an animal companion and be with the paladin 24/7. In addition, this would give us the flexibility to add other mounts to the list for the paladin to gain access to as they gain levels.
Thoughts?
Superb idea! I (and I am sure many other DMs) have house-ruled the callable mount from my campaigns long ago, but it is always good to have this be backed up by the official rules and not have to explain this to every new player in my campaign. Paladins should get a real mount not some dimensional destrier!
First off, the same issue of dungeon exploring exists with all animal companions, although you can usually trust the dire bear to get its own food.
I think this might be easily solved with a paladin ability that allows him to teleport his mount to his location, although this would not be a low level ability.
Thoughts?
Not a very good idea... I suppose if it were a very high level ability it would not be so bad, but as others have pointed out it is unnecessary: The mount can still be useful in guarding the ordinary horses while in a dungeon and in any case not all class features need to be equally useful all the time.
Not a very good idea... I suppose if it were a very high level ability it would not be so bad, but as others have pointed out it is unnecessary: The mount can still be useful in guarding the ordinary horses while in a dungeon and in any case not all class features need to be equally useful all the time.
I agree, however, I'm loathe to completely take things away from players who like them. I'd prefer to compromise. The pokemount thing is cheesy and apparently oft-maligned, but I see a world of difference in summoning a mount from across the country and sending your mount back and forth to the big stable in the sky.
As you said, it'd need to be a high level ability...