Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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A simple ability, and probably the single best class ability the paladin has.
Kind of a boring schtick to be awesome at: Fighter- FEATS! Barbarian - RAGE! Ranger - FAVORED ENEMIES! PALADIN - ummm... I'm good at saving throws?
Still, it is the most disgusting ability for level-dipping. Perhaps others haven't seen this as much in their campaigns, and some will argue that kicking two levels of anything is dumb, etc., but I've seen it enough with the disgusting save bonuses that tend to go along, so just to humor me...
Why not invoke the duelist's AC bonus rule for the paladin's CHA-based bonus to saves?
To wit, rather than a flat "CHA bonus = bonus to saves," add the caveat "up to a maximum of the paladin's class level."
Doesn't matter if you have a CHA of 30, if you're only 2nd level as a paladin, you get +2. Period.
It's a pretty simple fix that rewards single-classers and limits the abusability of dipping.
Just adding my support for this idea. I heartily agree, and have used that same level-based limiter in some of my own classes.
@Jason
I totally agree with you here. It is a shame that the BEST paladin ability is for saves. It should be their ability to smite! As I have said in my other threads.
I like your fix here but wouldnt it be simpler just to make Divine grace a higher level ability? Possibly lvl 3 or 5 or something?
Though I would not be against your fix either. I really dislike level dipping! especially with paladins. I think people forget that if you dip for even 1 level you also gain his code of conduct!
I don't mean to discount this, but I've never seen anyone dip into paladin for a level for divine grace. I guess its probably happened, but it seems like a pretty steep code of conduct to adopt just to get a save bonus.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I don't mean to discount this, but I've never seen anyone dip into paladin for a level for divine grace. I guess its probably happened, but it seems like a pretty steep code of conduct to adopt just to get a save bonus.
I suppose a lot of folks in games I've played in or run have been playing LG anyway, so they figured it wasn't much of an imposition to add paladin LG onto regular LG.
The dips I've seen have been paladin/cleric, paladin/sorcerer, paladin/fighter, paladin/ranger, paladin/psychic warrior, and paladin/monk (truly disgusting saves).
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I don't mean to discount this, but I've never seen anyone dip into paladin for a level for divine grace. I guess its probably happened, but it seems like a pretty steep code of conduct to adopt just to get a save bonus.
I have. Sorcerer, Cleric, and Bard are all usual suspects of this _ i've seen LG Fighters (swashbuckler types specifically) and Monks also take advantage of it.
My houserule for a while now which I'll support here is a +1 to all saves at 2nd level and a +1 every 2 paladin levels after - to a max of CHA mod.
This I believe will help the level dipping - which is FAR less prevalent than level dipping in Fighter, Barbarian or Rogue, but I'll sign on for it nonetheless with the following caveat - that the rest of the offensive and defensive capabilities of the paladin get signifant boost - they already need some boost but if the paladin's only true great ability is getting reduced the boosts otherwise need to be not only slightly improved but signifantly improved.
Robert
...I'll sign on for it nonetheless with the following caveat - that the rest of the offensive and defensive capabilities of the paladin get signifant boost - they already need some boost but if the paladin's only true great ability is getting reduced the boosts otherwise need to be not only slightly improved but signifantly improved.
In terms of defensive abilities, I've always liked the idea of Charimsa adding to AC as well. Sort of like the Divine bonus that deities get to their AC, or the AT Field generated by the "angels" in Evangelion. While that may be a bit too much of a reliance on a single ability, if we limit the total bonus by level, I don't see it out-classing the benefits that any SAD classes get. As it is, the paladin has always been one of the classes that suffers from MAD the most.
Director of Games
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Interesting,
Although I have not seen this happen too often myself, I am aware of this issue. Some of the limiters mentioned here seem reasonable. That said, I have been trying to tackle this from the other angle (ie making the classes better so that multiclassing itself is less attractive). Has anyone seen this abuse using the Pathfinder rules?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
...I'll sign on for it nonetheless with the following caveat - that the rest of the offensive and defensive capabilities of the paladin get signifant boost - they already need some boost but if the paladin's only true great ability is getting reduced the boosts otherwise need to be not only slightly improved but signifantly improved.In terms of defensive abilities, I've always liked the idea of Charimsa adding to AC as well. Sort of like the Divine bonus that deities get to their AC, or the AT Field generated by the "angels" in Evangelion. While that may be a bit too much of a reliance on a single ability, if we limit the total bonus by level, I don't see it out-classing the benefits that any SAD classes get. As it is, the paladin has always been one of the classes that suffers from MAD the most.
The idea of adding Char mod to AC is awesome...perhaps a divine feat? I like it!
I think there were at least a couple of 3.0 and 3.5 splat books that had such feats. However, these were always along the lines of: "Use a turning attempt to add your Cha modifier to AC for x number of rounds."
I had something a bit more continuous in mind. However, your suggestion made me think, "Wouldn't it be cool if the paladin got bonus divine feats, similarly to how the fighter gets bonus combat feats?"
That could open up some interesting options, and add some diversity to the Paladin.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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...I'll sign on for it nonetheless with the following caveat - that the rest of the offensive and defensive capabilities of the paladin get signifant boost - they already need some boost but if the paladin's only true great ability is getting reduced the boosts otherwise need to be not only slightly improved but signifantly improved.In terms of defensive abilities, I've always liked the idea of Charimsa adding to AC as well. Sort of like the Divine bonus that deities get to their AC, or the AT Field generated by the "angels" in Evangelion. While that may be a bit too much of a reliance on a single ability, if we limit the total bonus by level, I don't see it out-classing the benefits that any SAD classes get. As it is, the paladin has always been one of the classes that suffers from MAD the most.
I don't know what Evangelion is, but I like the idea, especially if we include the level-limiters in with it.
It also gives the paladin an interesting defensive AC boost that doesn't just copy the fighter's "armor training" schtick. Perhaps something like:
Sacred Aura (Su): At 5th level and above, a paladin is surrounded by an aura of holy warding that provides a sacred bonus to AC equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus, up to a maximum of 1/2 her paladin level. A holy bonded mount shares the benefits of this sacred aura.
Either as an extension of the same power or perhaps as a separate power at 10th level:
A paladin may share this AC bonus with one ally within 30 feet for every 5 levels beyond 5th. An ally who is lawful good gains the full bonus. One who is lawful or good but not both gains only half the normal bonus. An ally who is neither lawful nor good gains no benefit.
It's funny, I thought about an ability like this that DR/evil would be a great ability, but, paradoxically, this has the opposite of the intended effect. The paladin becomes buff against everything BUT demons/devils/etc.! sigh...
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I don't mean to discount this, but I've never seen anyone dip into paladin for a level for divine grace. I guess its probably happened, but it seems like a pretty steep code of conduct to adopt just to get a save bonus.
Had a player in my old FR game take the paladin dip while advancing as a monk (which is allowed in FR, dependant on diety). Made one of the most broken monks ever.
As far as Divine Grace goes, why not just get rid of it all together and just give the Paladin the same saving throw bonuses as the Monk.
Also a constant Protection from Evil ability for the Paladin might help his AC. Maybe it can expand as he gains levels, eg: 5' radius at 5th level, 10' radius at 10 th level, etc…
Why not just make it simple and say that you only get divine grace if your paladin levels are higher than your levels in other classes? It would be less complicated that way, and kill dipping right away.
I have never seen this sort of abuse, but if it is common in other groups, the idea presented by the OP for preventing it seems sound.
I say remove all attribute dependency entirely and instead make it level dependent. instead of all your charisma bonus to your saves, make it +1 for every three class levels. No more paladin dipping, ever.
Sacred Aura (Su)
I like it. As you say, it doesn't step on the Fighter's toes and it avoids the weirdness of having DR against everyone except the enemies you really need it against.
BTW, the full title of the show I mentioned is "Neon Genesis: Evangelion". It's one of the more popular animé series that Japan has produced, often regarded on the same level of reverence as Akira, and Ghost in the Shell — i.e. something of a modern classic.
It actually has a lot of Kabbalistic mysticism worked into the science employed by the characters. Should you watch it and find that the last 2 episodes don't make any sense, there are 2 movies that effectively replace episodes 25 and 26 called "Death & Rebirth" and "End of Evangelion" respectively.
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It also gives the paladin an interesting defensive AC boost that doesn't just copy the fighter's "armor training" schtick. Perhaps something like:
Sacred Aura (Su): At 5th level and above, a paladin is surrounded by an aura of holy warding that provides a sacred bonus to AC equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus, up to a maximum of 1/2 her paladin level. A holy bonded mount shares the benefits of this sacred aura.
Either as an extension of the same power or perhaps as a separate power at 10th level:
A paladin may share this AC bonus with one ally within 30 feet for every 5 levels beyond 5th. An ally who is lawful good gains the full bonus. One who is lawful or good but not both gains only half the normal bonus. An ally who is neither lawful nor good gains no benefit.
It's funny, I thought about an ability like this that DR/evil would be a great ability, but, paradoxically, this has the opposite of the intended effect. The paladin becomes buff against everything BUT demons/devils/etc.! sigh...
I really like the sound of something like this.
In all the comments I've been making in trying to get the paladin the martial combat bonuses of attack/dmg and AC that he needs, I have failed to point out how cool the auras are that the paladin received in the alpha/beta rules.
I really like the Aura mechanics and hope that they continue to exist.
Such an idea by you, Jason, seems to fit in line with those auras. Many people are aware that a paladin is a selfless champion who spends as much time helping his comrades as himself. With that in mind, so long as the paladin receives the tools to make him able to help himself better and stand toe-to-toe with his enemies, then I'm definitely on board with abilities that paladins share with others (so long as he's benefitting too) - such as you suggested, Jason.
Robert
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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It also gives the paladin an interesting defensive AC boost that doesn't just copy the fighter's "armor training" schtick. Perhaps something like:
Sacred Aura (Su): At 5th level and above, a paladin is surrounded by an aura of holy warding that provides a sacred bonus to AC equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus, up to a maximum of 1/2 her paladin level. A holy bonded mount shares the benefits of this sacred aura.
Either as an extension of the same power or perhaps as a separate power at 10th level:
A paladin may share this AC bonus with one ally within 30 feet for every 5 levels beyond 5th. An ally who is lawful good gains the full bonus. One who is lawful or good but not both gains only half the normal bonus. An ally who is neither lawful nor good gains no benefit.
It's funny, I thought about an ability like this that DR/evil would be a great ability, but, paradoxically, this has the opposite of the intended effect. The paladin becomes buff against everything BUT demons/devils/etc.! sigh...
I really like the sound of something like this.
In all the comments I've been making in trying to get the paladin the martial combat bonuses of attack/dmg and AC that he needs, I have failed to point out how cool the auras are that the paladin received in the alpha/beta rules.
I really like the Aura mechanics and hope that they continue to exist.
Such an idea by you, Jason, seems to fit in line with those auras. Many people are aware that a paladin is a selfless champion who spends as much time helping his comrades as himself. With that in mind, so long as the paladin receives the tools to make him able to help himself better and stand toe-to-toe with his enemies, then I'm definitely on board with abilities that paladins share with others (so long as he's benefitting too) - such as you suggested, Jason.
Robert
Glad you enjoyed. I was thinking of adding a bit to it, though, in terms of making paladins more classically shield-oriented, or tweaking it a bit perhaps something like this:
Sacred Armory (Su): At 4th level, any armor or shield worn or used by a paladin is suffused with holy power, gaining a +1 sacred bonus to the AC they provide. If a paladin wears armor and uses a shield, this bonus applies to each item separately; the effects stack. This bonus increases by 1 every 4 levels thereafter.
And perhaps to continue the idea of the paladin, yknow, HELPING other party members:
Sacred Shield (Su): At 8th level, any ally within 10 feet of a paladin gains a sacred bonus to AC equal to half the paladin's sacred armory bonus. In addition, if the paladin is using a shield she may use it to protect a single adjacent ally. The paladin must designate this ally on her turn as a free action, and that ally shares the paladin's full sacred armory bonus to AC as long as he is adjacent to the paladin or the paladin designates a different ally.
Perhaps this is too similar in the eyes of some to a fighter's armor training, but I rather like the idea of the paladin having a type of holy defense that can be shared.
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Glad you enjoyed. I was thinking of adding a bit to it, though, in terms of making paladins more classically shield-oriented, or tweaking it a bit perhaps something like this:
Sacred Armory (Su): At 4th level, any armor or shield worn or used by a paladin is suffused with holy power, gaining a +1 sacred bonus to the AC they provide. If a paladin wears armor and uses a shield, this bonus applies to each item separately; the effects stack. This bonus increases by 1 every 4 levels thereafter.
And perhaps to continue the idea of the paladin, yknow, HELPING other party members:
Sacred Shield (Su): At 8th level, any ally within 10 feet of a paladin gains a sacred bonus to AC equal to half the paladin's sacred armory bonus. In addition, if the paladin is using a shield she may use it to protect a single adjacent ally. The paladin must designate this ally on her turn as a free action, and that ally shares the paladin's full sacred armory bonus to AC as long as he is adjacent to the paladin or the paladin designates a different ally.
Perhaps this is too similar in the eyes of some to a fighter's armor training, but I rather like the idea of the paladin having a type of holy defense that can be shared.
Absolutely!! one of my proposed fixes to help the paladin in the AC dept is a limited Armor Training (x2 instead of x4 that the fighter gets), but your suggestion carries with it a modicum of fluff and role-playing style that makes me like it even more. The end result is essentially the same - just the fluff is better fitted towards a paladin. AND the idea of adding the bonus to allies like an aura or simply wanting to protect is jewel! I mostly play paladins, and most of them that I do play are the over-protective types that spend a great deal of time protecting his friend and allies - your suggestion is right up my alley. (of course choosing to protect is also a product of never being good enough in a fight to really hit or hurt most of the tough opponent - cuz frankly paladins suck in the hitting and damage dealing dept).
Robert
I TOTALLY agree with this to...GREAT idea! I love it!
And I also agree with Robert about the weakness to paladin to hit and damage bonuses...these are were the changes need to be made!
You guys are on to something here. I hope this keeps up! I also hope the paladin to hit/damage (vs. EVIL) is boosted.