So...there seems to be a common theme emerging: If you express dislike of people using this forum as a cesspit for their hatred of 4E, you are told in so many words that "if you don't like it, just go someplace else." This comment is popping up more and more, and, even worse, it is going largely unchallenged.
The fact is, "Love it or leave it" doesn't make sense for countries, message boards, or anything else. People who care about something generally want to improve it, not run away when it is hijacked. This "Pathfinder: You're either with us or against us" viewpoint is destructive and divisive. Can we PLEASE denounce this little "gem" whenever and wherever it rears its ugly head? Sitting on the sidelines and saying "well, most of us don't feel that way" isn't good enough any more.
I know of no other way of salvaging this board as a place for Paizo customers who happen to like 4E to be able to discuss the game. At the risk of appearing melodramatic, a few are driving those among us who chose the "wrong" system away, and the rest are assenting (f by nothing more than their silence) to this witch hunt.
I'll second that Bugleyman. We all need to realize that we are not going to like the same things. Some people who play 4e are in love with the gripping storylines that Paizo produces. Others enjoy the (usually) more mature tone here. We need to be respectful of other people's preferences.
Oh, and if anyone comes back with "Well, WotC didn't respect us with that cartoon" I will just point over there:
Points to a road winding up through high distant mountains
See that? It's called the high road. Let's try and take it shall we?
Oh, and that also goes for the 4e folks, especially the ones who use the old trope "Oh you'll all switch over eventually." That to me is just as disrespectful and patronizing as the whole "If you don't like 3e/Pathfinder why are you here?" trope. Let's all try and get along for the sake of our forum and our hobby... PLEASE
There definitely seems to be an "us vs. them" mentality from many on the boards, including those who play 3e or 4e. Many 3e players feel the need to insert their anger into every 4e topic and many 4e players feel that defending 4e means arguing with anything remotely anti-WotC.
I plan on staying with Paizo - even though I play 4e I still use their adventures and supplements. I don't really want to go to another board. WotC is not perfect in my eyes and has made many frustrating mistakes and continues to do so.
There have been times I have not felt welcome here, not because of the staff but because of people's anger. But I've come to realize that there are certain things that instigate conflict. I just try to avoid it.
Even though I still check out Paizo 4e boards and even post occassionally, I don't find coming here very fun anymore. The constant fighting (not arguing) and the behavior of a select group of posters has sucked all the enjoyment I used to get from coming here.
IMO, self-moderation has failed (as evidenced by this thread, the latest of many). Paizo has two choices: shut down the 4e forum or impose moderation (which they should have done six months ago).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Although I haven't played 4e other than once on D&D Game Day, I have never and would never tell anyone to 'just go someplace else'.
I'm sorry bugleyman, but can you really say that this is becoming common or widespread? It seems more like a vocal minority of loudmouths to me. Don't generalize this sentiment to the Paizo boards as a whole.
Although I will be first to plead for civility, I will also be the first to argue against a moderation presence. Has it helped the tone of WotC's boards? From what little I have seen by casually perusing that board, not really. We are all nominally adults here. Can't we let this go? Do we need babysitters? Moderation of the boards becomes a slippery slope. People need to a) ignore the snarky comments against their game of choice and b) ignore the posters. Remember, trolls only thrive if you feed them. Speak up if you think someone is being rude, just like we all are in this thread. that is self moderation, and it does work.
Before this ill-received cartoon, we were doing much better with the tone on these boards. We just need to let the perceived insults slide and get on with the real purpose of these boards, discussing RPGs (of ALL stripes)
Back this up. C'mon CWM, you know that this is only a small fraction of those who post here on Paizo.
This whole board is becoming a "let's beat up on the 4e splitters" board.
On Paizo or in the 4e boards?
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Back this up. C'mon CWM, you know that this is only a small fraction of those who post here on Paizo.
This whole board is becoming a "let's beat up on the 4e splitters" board.
True - if you are talking about all of the boards combined. Here on the 4e board we have a high concentration of thread crappers and trolls.
Every once in a while we seem to have a stretch where people actually talk about the game. Then some bonehead takes a crap in a thread and pisses in some folks corn flakes and we are back to the same old dog and pony show.
Have you noticed the number of smurfings going on here? That is a clear indication that there are problems.
Sir you have impunged on the honor of Smurfs. The presence of Smurfs in a thread indicates a high-toned civilized discourse. Smurfs are unlikely to start trolling, in fact they try their hardest to difuse angry situations with their witty banter and erudite observations.
Please do not insult my people in such a fashion.
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As a lurker in the 4e threads, it has been my observation that the most recent rounds of bickering can mostly be laid at the feet of WotC's fecund humor. Those who felt it childish said so, some using it as an excuse to bemoan the perceived downward spiral of WotC which brought forth the 4e defenders.
Seems like there would be a lot less arguing if people on both sides were to be a little slower to become defensive.
That said, the call to leave the boards was unwarranted. On the other hand, posters should stop threatening to leave because they feel unwelcomed. Both responses are a churlish.
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As a lurker in the 4e threads, it has been my observation that the most recent rounds of bickering can mostly be laid at the feet of WotC's fecund humor. Those who felt it childish said so, some using it as an excuse to bemoan the perceived downward spiral of WotC which brought forth the 4e defenders.
But why come here if it was WotC that pissed people off? Since they can't kick WotC they come here to kick the nearest 4e player? WTF?
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Both responses are a churlish.I had to look up that word..;-)
I agree the call for to go somewhere else is unwarranted.
That said the flying hatred poo has not been one sided.
Does that even matter? This is the 4e board. Do you expect the people here to welcome all of the poop being flung at them just because they play 4e?
If you come here to fling poo at 4e then you should not be shocked when that poo is flung back at you.
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As a lurker in the 4e threads, it has been my observation that the most recent rounds of bickering can mostly be laid at the feet of WotC's fecund humor. Those who felt it childish said so, some using it as an excuse to bemoan the perceived downward spiral of WotC which brought forth the 4e defenders.But why come here if it was WotC that pissed people off? Since they can't kick WotC they come here to kick the nearest 4e player? WTF?
Actually..that particular thread did not start that way,there was not hatred for 4e players, but to WotC.
And they came here because this is their community.
It did not go into a 4e vs 3.5 until someone said that their opinions where childish..then it went all to shit.
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Sir you have impunged on the honor of Smurfs. The presence of Smurfs in a thread indicates a high-toned civilized discourse. Smurfs are unlikely to start trolling, in fact they try their hardest to difuse angry situations with their witty banter and erudite observations.
Please do not insult my people in such a fashion.
No insult intended - the presence of the wee blue folk is a positive sign. It shows that peace may break out at any minute with the help of little azure friends.
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As a lurker in the 4e threads, it has been my observation that the most recent rounds of bickering can mostly be laid at the feet of WotC's fecund humor. Those who felt it childish said so, some using it as an excuse to bemoan the perceived downward spiral of WotC which brought forth the 4e defenders.But why come here if it was WotC that pissed people off? Since they can't kick WotC they come here to kick the nearest 4e player? WTF?
The cartoon was a perfectly legitimate topic of conversation. People who were upset by it had every right to complain about it.
4e promoters would do better to simply say, "Sorry you feel that way," and move on.
As it is, many of the pro-4e crowd has been a little... ambitious in defending against any and every percieved slight. I have even recently observed a trend of mindlessly attacking other 4e players on the assumption that anyone making a criticism must be a hater. FWIW, its not just here, I've noticed the same thing on ENWorld.
But why come here if it was WotC that pissed people off? Since they can't kick WotC they come here to kick the nearest 4e player? WTF?
I'll agree with CWM here. As I posted on those cartoon threads in an effort to avoid the oncoming trainwreck I suggested those offended write an angry email to WotC customer service. The 4e folks here aren't WotC. It's not their fault the PR at WotC is insensitive, and posting angry about perceived 'insults' isn't getting us anywhere. Transference of your anger on someone else isn't fair. It's no more justifiable than the guy who gets dumped on at work and comes home and beats his kids to feel better.
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Actually..that particular thread did not start that way,there was not hatred for 4e players, but to WotC.
And they came here because this is their community.
It did not go into a 4e vs 3.5 until someone said that their opinions where childish..then it went all to s@&#.
So all WotC complaints must be posted to the 4e board? Makes no sense to me.
Maybe we need a 'argument' section of the boards where everyone still angry about the 3e/4e split can kvetch to their heart's content.
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So all WotC complaints must be posted to the 4e board? Makes no sense to me.Actually..that particular thread did not start that way,there was not hatred for 4e players, but to WotC.
And they came here because this is their community.
It did not go into a 4e vs 3.5 until someone said that their opinions where childish..then it went all to s@&#.
How is that not make sense?... WotC is 4e... what should have it been posted in the Pathfinder forums?.. or the 3.5 forums?.. It is perfectly on topic to post in the 4e forums. 4e forums Can be used for criticism, as long as it is kept civil, once it goes uncivil towards other posters is when it no longer belongs anywhere.
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So all WotC complaints must be posted to the 4e board? Makes no sense to me.Actually..that particular thread did not start that way,there was not hatred for 4e players, but to WotC.
And they came here because this is their community.
It did not go into a 4e vs 3.5 until someone said that their opinions where childish..then it went all to s@&#.
Where would you suggest they be put? This is the board for talking about 4E. The cartoon in question is an advert, of some sort, for 4E. To me it makes a lot of sense that it be discussed here. Which board would be more appropriate in your opinion?
As a lurker in the 4e threads, it has been my observation that the most recent rounds of bickering can mostly be laid at the feet of WotC's fecund humor. Those who felt it childish said so, some using it as an excuse to bemoan the perceived downward spiral of WotC which brought forth the 4e defenders.But why come here if it was WotC that pissed people off? Since they can't kick WotC they come here to kick the nearest 4e player? WTF?
Sadly, some posters seem to imagine that they can kick Wizards of the Coast by posting something on the 4E section of the Paizo boards.
Or maybe they think it's like sticking pins in a voodoo doll, and that by insulting someone on the 4E Paizo boards, they cause a WotC excutive to resign their job.<Shakes head sadly and mumbles 'smurf!'>
Maybe we need a 'argument' section of the boards where everyone still angry about the 3e/4e split can kvetch to their heart's content.*Smirk*
Try this..
PERFECT! Just make it an entire subsection like 'Gamer Life' is
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As a lurker in the 4e threads, it has been my observation that the most recent rounds of bickering can mostly be laid at the feet of WotC's fecund humor. Those who felt it childish said so, some using it as an excuse to bemoan the perceived downward spiral of WotC which brought forth the 4e defenders.But why come here if it was WotC that pissed people off? Since they can't kick WotC they come here to kick the nearest 4e player? WTF?
Sadly, some posters seem to imagine that they can kick Wizards of the Coast by posting something on the 4E section of the Paizo boards.
Or maybe they think it's like sticking pins in a voodoo doll, and that by insulting someone on the 4E Paizo boards, they cause a WotC excutive to resign their job.
Charles, People post where they feel comfortable, where they are part of the community. this is their community so they posted here.
The thread was a vent. I am sure the poster was not disillusioned in thinking they good change anything with WotC by posting here.
The 4e folks here aren't WotC.Granted.
But does this not also imply that complaints about WotC are not implicitly complaints about 4e folks.
Absolutely. There are too many thin-skinned individuals on both sides of this argument. People take this whole thing way too seriously.
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How is that not make sense?... WotC is 4e... what should have it been posted in the Pathfinder forums?.. or the 3.5 forums?.. It is perfectly on topic to post in the 4e forums. 4e forums Can be used for criticism, as long as it is kept civil, once it goes uncivil towards other posters is when it no longer belongs anywhere.
How about the Gamer Life board. How about the off topic board? This is a board about 4e. It is not a board about WotC PR or 4e marketing.
Oh, and look at the "terms" at the top of the board. This is not the place to lambaste WotC.
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How is that not make sense?... WotC is 4e... what should have it been posted in the Pathfinder forums?.. or the 3.5 forums?.. It is perfectly on topic to post in the 4e forums. 4e forums Can be used for criticism, as long as it is kept civil, once it goes uncivil towards other posters is when it no longer belongs anywhere.How about the Gamer Life board. How about the off topic board? This is a board about 4e. It is not a board about WotC PR or 4e marketing.
Oh, and look at the "terms" at the top of the board. This is not the place to lambaste WotC.
I think our deffintion on personal attack is different..
I did not see the original thread as a personal attack but as a Criticism of WotC.
Criticism and personal attack are different.
From there it did go into personal attacks though.
And even if you don't want to Admit it, WotC is 4e and criticism or praise for them fits in the 4e forum.
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And even if you don't want to Admit it, WotC is 4e and criticism or praise for them fits in the 4e forum.
And WotC is also 3.5 - why not post there?
Look - if people come here and crap on 4e and WotC then there will alway be people who will fire back. This is especially true when the complaints are clearly without merit.
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And even if you don't want to Admit it, WotC is 4e and criticism or praise for them fits in the 4e forum.And WotC is also 3.5 - why not post there?
Look - if people come here and crap on 4e and WotC then there will alway be people who will fire back. This is especially true when the complaints are clearly without merit.
If the cartoon in question had been about reaction to 3.5, sure. It wasn't. A lot of the complaints about the cartoon are legitimate. Overblown, quite possibly, but basically legitimate. Some of the criticisms against 4E are also legitimate, but it takes more digging to find those, and most come down to personal taste rather than anything else.
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And even if you don't want to Admit it, WotC is 4e and criticism or praise for them fits in the 4e forum.And WotC is also 3.5 - why not post there?
Look - if people come here and crap on 4e and WotC then there will alway be people who will fire back. This is especially true when the complaints are clearly without merit.
WotC is no longer 3.5....They no longer print 3.5 or support it..
Much of the problem is you are firing back at opinions..Opinions are opinions, they are neither right or wrong. people don't like being criticized on their opinions especially if the person firing back is rude about it.
Let me make something clear, in no shape or form am I defending those that are rude or use poor etiquette on the forums, I am just saying it is not one sided.
Oh, and that also goes for the 4e folks, especially the ones who use the old trope "Oh you'll all switch over eventually." That to me is just as disrespectful and patronizing as the whole "If you don't like 3e/Pathfinder why are you here?" trope.
As someone who has been guilty of saying something similar in the past: I apologize, I was wrong. I accept that 4E doesn't do it for some people, and never will.
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As someone who has been guilty of saying something similar in the past: I apologize, I was wrong. I accept that 4E doesn't do it for some people, and never will.
Oh, and that also goes for the 4e folks, especially the ones who use the old trope "Oh you'll all switch over eventually." That to me is just as disrespectful and patronizing as the whole "If you don't like 3e/Pathfinder why are you here?" trope.
I for one may someday use 4e. At this time though I have no interest in it because of their choice of starting classes. I am waiting for PHB 2 and Eberron.
Also truthfully I am not even using 3.5 right now, since I have 0 players.
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WotC is no longer 3.5....They no longer print 3.5 or support it..
Sure they do. They still have a ton of 3e content on their site and they still have 3e boards.
Much of the problem is you are firing back at opinions..Opinions are opinions, they are neither right or wrong. people don't like being criticized on their opinions especially if the person firing back is rude about it.
Let me make something clear, in no shape or form am I defending those that are rude or use poor etiquette on the forums, I am just saying it is not one sided.
The fact that it is two sided is not a good excuse for bad behavior. This is the only board at Paizo that has this level conflict. Are there anti-Pathfinder rants on that board? Are there anti-3e rants on that board? No and no.
So why are anti-4e tolerated here?
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I currently play 3.5, and will eventually migrate to Pathfinder, but have no interest in playing 4E in the foreseeable future with my current DnD group. However, I also play with another group, many other systems, none of which are DnD. I have no problems with 4E itself. To me, it's just another system. I'm sure it's fun for those who play it, and i may play it one day myself.
With that said, i find it hard to understand why people would have negative comments to say to someone about a system that they themselves don't play, or plan on playing. People have different preferences, styles of play, and systems they play. Why can't we just appreciate this and move on?
Charles, People post where they feel comfortable, where they are part of the community. this is their community so they posted here.
I'd like to steal part of your previous post if you don't mind. This is my point. I used to feel comfortable here. I used to feel like I was a part of the Paizo community. In the past 48 hours I've been told, not once, but twice, and by two different people (one of whom I've never "seen" before a few months ago), that if I didn't bash 4E/WoTC, or at the very least stop defending them (irrespective of the merit of what was being said), that I should go post on some other message board. Stopping THAT was the purpose of my post. As Paizo has explicitly stated that they wish this board to be self-moderating, the only way I can see to do that is by asking everyone, 4E and Pathfinder fan alike, to call bullshit whenever and wherever that happens.
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The fact that it is two sided is not a good excuse for bad behavior. This is the only board at Paizo that has this level conflict. Are there anti-Pathfinder rants on that board? Are there anti-3e rants on that board? No and no.
So why are anti-4e tolerated here?
Oh I agree, it is not an excuse... For Either side..
I have seen you many times say Anti 3e things..And i have seen posters say Anti Pathfinder things, so yes there are anti 3e posts on these boards, just not as many since the company that owns these boards is not supporting 4e.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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So all WotC complaints must be posted to the 4e board? Makes no sense to me.Actually..that particular thread did not start that way,there was not hatred for 4e players, but to WotC.
And they came here because this is their community.
It did not go into a 4e vs 3.5 until someone said that their opinions where childish..then it went all to s@&#.
So, you mean that those who are upset at the way WotC is promoting 4e should go elsewhere. I must have misunderstood the thread title.
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I'd like to steal part of your previous post if you don't mind. This is my point. I used to feel comfortable here. I used to feel like I was a part of the Paizo community. In the past 48 hours I've been told, not once, but twice, and by two different people (one of whom I've never "seen" before a few months ago), that if I didn't bash 4E/WoTC, or at the very least stop defending them (irrespective of the merit of what was being said), that I should go post on some other message board. Stopping THAT was the purpose of my post. As Paizo has explicitly stated that they wish this board to be self-moderating, the only way I can see to do that is by asking everyone, 4E and Pathfinder fan alike, to call b%~&@&~& whenever and wherever that happens.
just a reminder of something I am sure you know... 2 people do not make a community..
Other then that your complaints against those 2 people is warranted.
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Amen brother! I wish we could all just play nice and be happy. Honestly, in this case, everyone wins. Those who like 4E have 4E. Those who like 3.5 have 3.5 or Pathfinder. We all have a fun game to play. Everybody Wins! How often in life do we get to say that. Everybody Wins!
Seriously, some one please explain to me why we are *still* having this argument.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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As Paizo has explicitly stated that they wish this board to be self-moderating, the only way I can see to do that is by asking everyone, 4E and Pathfinder fan alike, to call b%%%@#!# whenever and wherever that happens.
I'd like to suggest that smurfings and attacks by poodles are the way that Paizonians call bullshit on rudeness and aggression. I'd also like to suggest that when you paint all Paizonians with the same brush as those 4e-bashers, you are sinking to their level.
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I have seen you many times say Anti 3e things..And i have seen posters say Anti Pathfinder things, so yes there are anti 3e posts on these boards, just not as many since the company that owns these boards is not supporting 4e.
I am not talking about posts - I am talking about rants, insults, and general hostility. I dislike 3e but I do not believe the system to be unworthy of play. In fact I completely understand why some folks would choose 3.5 over 4e. You don't see me posting my gripes in the 3e boards do you? No.
Just because Paizo does not publish materials for 4e does not mean they want their customers to crusade against it.
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I'll agree with CWM here. As I posted on those cartoon threads in an effort to avoid the oncoming trainwreck I suggested those offended write an angry email to WotC customer service. The 4e folks here aren't WotC. It's not their fault the PR at WotC is insensitive, and posting angry about perceived 'insults' isn't getting us anywhere. Transference of your anger on someone else isn't fair. It's no more justifiable than the guy who gets dumped on at work and comes home and beats his kids to feel better.But why come here if it was WotC that pissed people off? Since they can't kick WotC they come here to kick the nearest 4e player? WTF?
I thought the cartoon was kind of silly, and that's it. But even if I had been genuinely offended, that's not CWM's fault, or Bugleyman's or anyone else who happens to enjoy 4E. To take it out on them would be, at the very least, not cool.
Seriously, there are so few of us RPGers, can we quit fighting each other? [joke] We've got jocks lining up to steal our milk money. We need to stick together [/joke]