This has come up while preparing for our new campaign. Our DM grants a bonus feat at 1st level as a "regional" feat from a list. One of the feats on the list is Toughness and it seems to have become extremely popular now.
My interpretation of the feat is that it grants 4 extra hp at 1st level (3 hp + 1 per hit dice) then an additional hp per hd/level gained. The DM thinks it means 3 hp at first level and +1 hp each level after.
Of course, I don't care either way but I was wondering how others were reading the feat description as I thought it was pretty clear.
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It seems pretty clear to me too that it should be +4HPs at first level.
Since we're all agreed on that, I'll ask: does anyone think the PF version of Toughness is a bit too generous? Would 3 + 1/2 HD be more balanced?
I'm not sure about this myself. 3.5 Toughness was definitely underpowered, but I feel like PF's version is perhaps a bit much. On the other hand, HPs are a lot easier to come by in PF, so maybe it needs such a big increase to remain worth taking?
Any comments?
i don't think one hp per level is too overwhelming, actually. you'd net a total of 23 extra hit points at twentieth level, which would keep you in the fight, at best, one round longer. the overall effect isn't much different than raising con two points, but that modest hit point increase would be a boon in a game where stats are rolled, not assigned, and allow for more flexibility in character creation.
the above opinion assumes a "normal" gaming style. i think the PF toughness feat would be a bit underwhelming in an epic style game, and more significant in a low fantasy style game.
It seems pretty clear to me too that it should be +4HPs at first level.
Since we're all agreed on that, I'll ask: does anyone think the PF version of Toughness is a bit too generous? Would 3 + 1/2 HD be more balanced?
I'm not sure about this myself. 3.5 Toughness was definitely underpowered, but I feel like PF's version is perhaps a bit much. On the other hand, HPs are a lot easier to come by in PF, so maybe it needs such a big increase to remain worth taking?
Any comments?
Uh, no. Making it not suck makes it worth taking. In a sense. My current wizard took it, though he would trade it for Arcane Strike in a heartbeat (if Arcane Strike weren't poop).
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23 extra hit points at twentieth level, which would keep you in the fight, at best, one round longer. the overall effect isn't much different than raising con two pointsThe "raising two Con points" thing is kind of what I was thinking of. Raising Con by two points costs two epic feats. Epic feats are (as a rule of thumb) worth about two non-epic feats. So it should cost four feats to raise an ability score by two. Even when you allow for the fact that the extra also Con raises your Fortitude save, your Endurance checks, and possibly class abilities, it still comes out to +1HP/HD being worth about three feats.
you can raise your con by two points by just taking the 4th and 8th level ability increase. what i meant by adding flexibility is you can, by taking toughness, assign an ability score to something that makes more sense from a roleplaying, character concept perspective, rather than put a really good score in con just to get some extra hp. yeah, you're still s.o.l. on the fort save bonus, but that's part of the "give" in the "give and take" when you're trying to realize a concept...
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I wasn't disagreeing with the part about it adding flexibility. I was just saying that as far as I can see, PF's Toughness is overpowered compared to other feats. To be honest, I didn't expect many people would agree, but I was interested to know if people thought it was balanced, and if so, why.
BTW, what does s.o.l. mean?
s**t out of luck ;)
Wasnt there a feat called Improved Thoughnes in one of the complete source books that gave 1HP/HD?
OK, here is another question.
Say you pick up toughness at lvl 7. The way it is written says 3+ 1 per hit die, not one per level. Thus if you pick it up at lvl 7 wouldnt that give you 10 HP? Just curious as if this is the way it works it is something I would think about picking up later and would still make it worthwhile to spend a feat on later in the game.
I wish they would make more feats scale like Toughness does!
OK, here is another question.
Say you pick up toughness at lvl 7. The way it is written says 3+ 1 per hit die, not one per level. Thus if you pick it up at lvl 7 wouldnt that give you 10 HP? Just curious as if this is the way it works it is something I would think about picking up later and would still make it worthwhile to spend a feat on later in the game.
I wish they would make more feats scale like Toughness does!
sounds right to me. level 7 + toughness = +10hp
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The "raising two Con points" thing is kind of what I was thinking of. Raising Con by two points costs two epic feats. Epic feats are (as a rule of thumb) worth about two non-epic feats. So it should cost four feats to raise an ability score by two. Even when you allow for the fact that the extra also Con raises your Fortitude save, your Endurance checks, and possibly class abilities, it still comes out to +1HP/HD being worth about three feats.
Epic feats should be worth two non-epic feats, but I don't see that happening. Spend a feat to raise CON 1 point? I'm better off taking Great Fortitude. Epic feats should give you more than that in my opinion. Things like some of the feats Monte Cook put out in Book of Experimental Might 2. But the big problem is that everyone publishes regular feats, leaving epic feats with no support because people perceive so few players of it. So you have thousands of feats doing their best to get people's attention with their worth, that epic feats get outshined.