House Rule 3: Knock Down.
The game the way I read it deals with this through tripping, and possibly varied Bull-rush effects. But those are active attack options, and there are many situation that have effects of active actions that should be considered, like taking alot of damage.
Now I know there are massive damage rules but this is not what I am getting at. Anyone who has ever been in fight or physical sport knows that you can get knocked down without being completely debilitated.
What I propose is a rule to deal with that; Knock-Down.
Basically, if damage taken from a physical attack matches or beats half your Strength stat, you could be knocked down (with all the fun stuff that goes along with it). Reflex saves checks are used to maintain a standing position, which can be modified by Balance skill.
This basic rule is modified by two main factors.
1. number of legs; see Bull Rush rules. The legs you have, the harder you are to knock down.
2. Size Modifier. The bigger you are, the easier it is to knock down creatures smaller than you, and the harder it is for them to knock you down.
3. The DC to remain standing is Damage taken + size modifier of attacker - Size modifier of the defender.
4. For every 3 ranks of Balance, a +1 Ref bonus is given to beat a knock-down effect. Characters can take 10 to resolve this affect.
Example: A 4th level hafling rogue with 17 DEX and Balance skill of 9 ranks is attacked by an ogre who hits him for 15 points of damage with a club. Providing, he is not squished outright, the hafling (whose strength is 11) has to beat a knock-down roll. The Hafling must beat a DC of 21 (damage + size mod of the ogre - size mod of the hafling). He has a +7 to the roll, so chances are he will be on the ground, or sailing through the air, depending on how cruel the DM will be!
Possible Feats:
Sturdy: Character gains +4 to avoid knock-down effects in combat. This includes attempted trip attacks by an opponent. ( Dwarves in my home group got this feat automatically)
Improved Knock-down: Prerequisite: Str 15, Power attack. Characters gain a +2 bonus to the DC of foe suspectible to their knock-down effects.
I admit, this rule sounds ugly against the PC's, who will be suffering the most (monsters are often bigger and deal a lot more damage, not to mention all of the Attacks of Opportunity). But, I'll play with almost any rules as long as the game stays fun.
Well, fun is the main point. I am no dictator. If the group does not wish to use the rule, then we won't. I take no offense.
Just to clarify before we decide ( besides Wellard who seems pretty adamant :):
Knock-down the way I use it is not a standard action like trip, grapple or sunder. It is a passive effect of a combat action. It in and of itself, does not start an AoO. If we were to use this rule to indicate that a knock-down affect sends victims 'flying' due to impact, the victim leaving the threatened square does so in such a way (speed, angle etc) as to not provoke an AoO for leaving that square.
Also, there is nothing to say that attacks can't continue from the ground ( e.g. prone attack feat), or that there can't be a feat that circumvents the AoO for standing in a threatened square.Like Mobility or something similiar. Tumble would also be a likely action to circumvent this IMO.
When my old gaming group originally used this rule, we were wondering how the men of Sterich dealt with the giants that overran their lands. Of course they used polearms and distance weapons primarily, but for us, the mechanics of this rule made that strategy make that much more sense. Why go toe to toe with something that outwieghs you and has double your strength? We thought that you didn't do that if you could avoid it. For us, it also mixed combat up a bit more and forced us to think more on how to overcome the larger monsters.
But again, this is about fun, and this is a new group. We won't use it if you guys really don't want to. No problem.
I appreciate the feedback you give me in this thread, good and bad. I like to think that it will help me be better skilled at the hobby I love, so please keep telling me what you think.
I will accomodate as best I can without scuttling my campaign.
House Rule 3: Knock Down.
The game the way I read it deals with this through tripping, and possibly varied Bull-rush effects. But those are active attack options, and there are many situation that have effects of active actions that should be considered, like taking alot of damage.
Now I know there are massive damage rules but this is not what I am getting at. Anyone who has ever been in fight or physical sport knows that you can get knocked down without being completely debilitated.
What I propose is a rule to deal with that; Knock-Down.
Basically, if damage taken from a physical attack matches or beats half your Strength stat, you could be knocked down (with all the fun stuff that goes along with it). Reflex saves checks are used to maintain a standing position, which can be modified by Balance skill.
This basic rule is modified by two main factors.
1. number of legs; see Bull Rush rules. The legs you have, the harder you are to knock down.
2. Size Modifier. The bigger you are, the easier it is to knock down creatures smaller than you, and the harder it is for them to knock you down.
3. The DC to remain standing is Damage taken + size modifier of attacker - Size modifier of the defender.
4. For every 3 ranks of Balance, a +1 Ref bonus is given to beat a knock-down effect. Characters can take 10 to resolve this affect.Example: A 4th level hafling rogue with 17 DEX and Balance skill of 9 ranks is attacked by an ogre who hits him for 15 points of damage with a club. Providing, he is not squished outright, the hafling (whose strength is 11) has to beat a knock-down roll. The Hafling must beat a DC of 21 (damage + size mod of the ogre - size mod of the hafling). He has a +7 to the roll, so chances are he will be on the ground, or sailing through the air, depending on how cruel the DM will be!
Possible Feats:
Sturdy: Character gains +4 to avoid knock-down effects in combat. This includes attempted trip attacks by an opponent. ( Dwarves in my home group got this feat...
Patrick, interesting idea, a couple of concerns:
First, the threshhold seems too low. Half of strength stat -- 5 points of damage knocks down the "average character". Even an 18 strength character gets knocked down on 9 hp. The bigger monsters will be knocking people down every round. I think you'd need a higher threshhold or mix strength with hit points somehow.
Second, combat will get longer. PbP combat takes long enough. In my campaign, I'm thinking about eliminating or reducing AoOs to speed things up.
Third, this kind of rule will play against PCs. Especially at higher levels.
Your modifiers 1-3 seem reasonable. Depending on the damage 4 may provide too much defense, or too little against the knockdown, especially with the auto 10. I feel characters should always have a reasonable chance to stay on their feet.
"Prone combat" may become a very valuable feat.
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its a rule that favours Monsters over PCs andis not balanced..normally I would go with the majority..but this rule is just too much for me to accept..A fully armoured trained fighting man is not going to get knocked on his ass everytime he gets hit by a 8 point punch from a zombie...and the feats to avoid this are just going to eat up feat slots for no real purpose
Plus as thom points out it's yet another set of dice rolls in PbP
If the feats keep the fighting man on his feet, then they serve a useful purpose. Heavily armored men were on horses in the middle ages for just this reason (and they were trained). Still, if the rule seems to favour monsters, maybe it would be better used as an ability that certain creatures could possess instead of a general rule.
About the slowing down of combat concern, I agree with that. The take ten was meant to alleviate that somewhat; the character could auto-balance from a certain amount of damage. Perhaps just using the damage taken as the DC would be more fair. The half-the-strength-stat criteria was a recent change, I confess. I felt that maybe the full strength stat was too high a criteria to reach what with magic items and spells and so on, but then again, half strength maybe too low, sure.
Thanks for the input guys.
I think I will leave this option open as part of the power attack feat tree and maybe an ability monsters ( aka giants) may have access to, but we will not use it as a general rule.
That cool with everyone?
I also don't like the optional Knock down rule. It seems that most of the optional rules give more power to the monsters, and we're not powerhouse creatures as it is. I couldn't put points into INT for more skill ranks...ie balance, because I don't have the points available. This is a cross-class skill for fighters so I could get 1.5 per level and there go all my skill points.
I think I might drop out of this game unfortunately. I'm sure that the difficulty level works great in a tabletop game, but I've found with a PbP we need to simplify the game not make it more complicated. I love your campaign world, and the detail you've put into it, and would love to play face to face, but Belthic seems totally inept as a character, and I don't think he would last too long in this world anyway. Lawful Good, and Heavy armor seem to spell a recepie for disaster, and I don't see any way around some of the things I have to overcome, short of shedding my armor and running around without it. That is a death sentence with my low DEX. So I'm going to bow out before I get in the way of the story.
I'll keep watching however and good luck guys.
Belthic goes down swinging under a press of evil Zombies, defending the townsfolk in a futile attempt to keep true to his heart. Moradin embraces him as he falls.
Just because things are not as you envisioned is not a reason to give up. Truly, I wish you would reconsider.
This knock down rule will not be used as stated above.
Flexibility in tactics in the game, as with life, is the key to success in my humble option. Being a tank will work in some situations but not all, being lawful good, though used as by evil to hamper their enemies is NOT a bad thing, but what most stories, many movies, and many games are based on. consider not always wearing the heaviest armor and using the biggest weapons in all situations. There is sound wisdom in dressing for the weather in the real world, the same kind of wisdom can apply here. This was our first adventure, and the initial tactic may not work quite as expected, but that is not to say you can't adapt, or that the traditional role of your character may not be useful in other situations.
Also, your character is not surrounded by zombies or alone (Sgt. Whitbourne is with you)
For my part, I am sorry I could not provide you with a better time.
Scranford,
if real life intrudes then I inderstand about leaving the game, but please consider waiting a bit before bowing out. We're really not properly through the first encounter yet. Admittedly, its not one that plays to the equipment or strengths of the group, but hopefully we'll adapt as we get a sense of Patrick's world. He's got everyone a little off balance because he's not running a standard campaign or setting, but that's why I signed up. Trying to fix the world after the last group of heroes failed and left a huge mess, where will we have more scope to be heroic?
Already I can see that Thale is going to have a lot of trouble. He's a generous guy and I can see that this world is going to teach him to keep a reserve, because you don't know when the worst is over. He's already learning, because he isn't stopping to fight zombies right now.
Basil has already faced the "paladin's dilemma". I'll bet he sees it again.
Basil and Belthic were both at a big disadvantage for the rooftop escape/chase. Thale was miserable during the combats. Garret's done fine so far, but I'm sure he'll hit a bad situation. Patrick's showing us a very "this is the world, deal with it" attitude. We'll have to be smart and adaptable, and hopefully never be caught this unprepared again. Once we get out of the city it makes a great starting point for the campaign. None of us were as heroic as we imagined coming to town. Now we've got to do the best we can. This could be a great story.
I don't think it's a deliberate attempt to screw the players. It's just starting off in a tight spot. It's non-standard and requires a bit of thought. I'd say it was a screw-job if we were being punished for any actions we attempted, but so far we're not. You fell from the roof. Are you dead? Did the bad guy automatically get away?
I know that my character has been least penalized in-game (who'd have figured, a rogue not suffering in an undead campaign), but I really like the story so far and I want to see where it goes. I hope nobody quits.
I don't think it's a deliberate attempt to screw the players. It's just starting off in a tight spot. .... I hope nobody quits.
Succinctly said, Wedge. I second it all, especially the final sentence.
Patrick, depending on work I may not be able to post today. Please DMPC Thale as needed. He's hoping to get to a better position and attempt an escape. He's also perfectly willing to talk. Although we're gonna be a zombie magnet if we all don't get out of sight.
BTW, a new character will be joining us shortly. The character is ready to go last I heard, and will be joining us shortly based on our actions ( within the week I hope).
Sorry, guys, I was sick Friday. Had house guests this weekend. I'll be catching up on work Monday. I probably won't post til Monday night.
`Wedge, don't sweat the friendly fire. We're all in a tough spot.
Sorry, guys, I was sick Friday. Had house guests this weekend. I'll be catching up on work Monday. I probably won't post til Monday night.
`Wedge, don't sweat the friendly fire. We're all in a tough spot.
I wasn't worried until I realized you were down Con.
Got another friend from Labardor thinking of taking over Sgt. Whitbourne. Hopefully that happens soon.
Very soon. ;\
The theme was indeed to keep going, but poeple can still attempt to heal. Omar did indeed have information, but that was not a lynchpin to the present events. I was working for a horror aspect for the first part of the adventure, so that is why things didn't feel heroic IMO. Still, heroic things could be attempted; saving people from fire, zombies, ordering them away from danger etc.
Other things were in place to deal with Omar in the future. The high tension was on purpose and worked to set the mood. I tried to accomodate all actions within reason. If you felt like you wanted to regroup, that could have been done. Like I said, I wanted your characters to want to chase Omar, but Dresden had enough info to keep the party going.
About Dresden not needing fear save, he looked mostly human and stayed covered most of the time. Melee combat with humanoids was also a given at 3rd level so no fear save was required. In fact, no fear save would be required for individual or small numbers of zombies either. However, I figured these were distinctly different from the zombies Belthic (thanks for still watching the thread BTW)and the others faced, AND they were in numbers your characters didn't encounter before. Still, I need to tweak the fear mechanic; I am not ready to give it up. Maybe more feats or something.
I appreciate all your comments ( even Wellard's comment of not commenting :)
So here is the pitch...
Let's start over! There is still fun to be had.
Option 1: Same scenario different part of the city. Not all areas suffered as much as Dawn Market. That way, our characters may not have died in vain.
Option 2: Pathfinder: Darkmoon Vale. I have the gear to do a campaign here.
Option 3: Somebody else run a game and allow me to join ( it would be much appreciated).
Seriously. I just want to keep playing something. Let me know your thoughts ( you too Wellard !) )