The damaging attacks I saw being most effective were crystal shard (because it was a ranged touch that bypassed DR and SR and had no save) and energy missile (both because you could choose the energy type and the save type you wanted to fit the situation and because it was selective, auto-targeting up to 5 creatures or objects (sonic was particularly handy for this, for zapping weapons, holy symbols, magic items, etc.) in the area without worrying about affecting allies).
Well, actually in the Complete Psionic (ok, I know it's a splatbook) they specifically said that Metacreativity powers such as Crystal Shard or Swarm of Crystals do not automatically overcome DR.
Character Name: The Chrono-Legionaire
I am familiar with this character. It requires you to be "ok" with this:
Control Body + Solicit Psicrystal (Available 15th level): Basically this trick gives the psion one full round of mental actions each round (which he uses to regain focus and manifest powers) and one full round of physical actions each round (which he uses to attack with). It's like a two-for-one deal.
I never would be as a DM. Using control body on yourself from your Psicrystal to gain a "physical action", um, no.
Same for me, here. Also, it would be a VERY stretching way to utilize a power which is meant - basically - to force a foe to act like a puppet AGAINST yourself. The power itself is worded horribly - from the SRD "You psychokinetically control the actions of any humanoid (including undead or outsiders with a humanoid physiology) that is within range and to which you have line of sight" ; would this also include YOU ? It's not stated clearly. As a suggested fix, I would strongly say "no" (I know that in the PFRPG there are no Psionic classes, but I strongly hope for an integration in the future, since they are in the SRD ... oh, well, a man has his dreams).
And seriously, a 4th level power which is basically a "Save or Die" power? If you fail the Saving Throw, you are under control for up to 20 minutes (Epic not included), no subsequent Saving Throw to struggle against the power. Hold Person and various other spells have been fixed in previous editions in order to allow a new Save every round, with the last addition of Glitterdust in the Beta; I say that this is a pertinent fix for Control Body as well. Come on, an unlucky 20th level Fighter can be forced to slaughter for 7 minutes his comrades by a 7th level Kineticist (with a better BaB, I would add...) !As a final note about the "Chrono-Legionaire": Assimilate. This is another horribly broken power that can and should be fixed; it is ridicolous that "sucking" into your body a squirrel or a hamster (unless it is Boo from the CRPG saga of Baldur's Gate) boosts your hp and ability scores ! There should be a minimum HD of the creature you absorb (something like HD at least equal to 1/2 your caster level) in order to gain such increments.
I have no idea why are blasting mages considered bad. Most other effects are easily stopped with Death Ward/Mind Blank/Freedom of Movement. Then all you got left is blasting spells.
Except for Destruction and Implosion but they are not arcane spells.
I will expand upon what CoL said. In D&D, hit point reduction has no negative effects whatsoever. (Beyond death when it falls at 0, that is) Casters have very finite resources, and blast spells have little efficiency. (See Col's post above) To spend those resources when a melee character (Who is actually trained to do that sort of thing) could do it all day, only better is foolish.
I agree buffs protect from many Save-or-Dies, but an even greater way to use spells is in battlefield control. If a caster can influence combat while helping his allies, he'll be even more appreciated and useful.
I forgot to mention one can still fight just as well when at max HP as when at 1 HP? Oops.
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I forgot to mention one can still fight just as well when at max HP as when at 1 HP? Oops.
One of the biggest weaknesses of the D&D combat system in my opinion. It's a trade-off between accuracy and simplicity.
In my grittier games, I use the following: 1/2 hp you are fatigued, 1/4 hp you are exhausted. Makes fights a lot deadlier, but also makes for a lot of book-keeping. These conditions do not go away, even if you receive healing, until you get 10 minutes of rest or a restoration-series spell.
But to the critique of blast spells: their job isn't to instant-win every combat. Their job is to reduce hit points across the board, forcing a change in strategy, and allowing the warrior characters to mop up the battlefield. Comparing them to save-or-die effects is not fair, because from a resource standpoint save-or-dies typically affect low numbers of opponents in a small area from a short range. Personally, I would rather deal with 10 4th-level hobgoblins at 1/2 hit points than 8 or 9 hobgoblins at full hit points, with one dead, asleep, or distracted.
Save-or-dies are for the single, tough enemy (whether in a larger battle or not). Direct damage spells are for conserving more limited resources and opening up on the hordes of peons.
Guess who your HP rule screws? Yup, the guys who make it their job to get beat up, aka the melees.
Anyways, no Wizard worth his high Intelligence score would use a single target SoD in that scenario. He'd use a Black Tentacles or Solid Fog or something and take out multiple enemies, at least for a time (easily long enough to kill the rest, dividing enemy forces). Or he'd save his spells (better than AoE blasting) and let the Fighter feel useful by smacking some mooks around.
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Guess who your HP rule screws? Yup, the guys who make it their job to get beat up, aka the melees.
Anyways, no Wizard worth his high Intelligence score would use a single target SoD in that scenario. He'd use a Black Tentacles or Solid Fog or something and take out multiple enemies, at least for a time (easily long enough to kill the rest, dividing enemy forces). Or he'd save his spells (better than AoE blasting) and let the Fighter feel useful by smacking some mooks around.
I didn't say my rule was intended to benefit anybody, it's supposed to make hit points more realistic.
Sorry, I forgot to mention that I also use a rule that forces all casters to make a percentile roll, followed by a Concentration check, to make sure their spell doesn't blow up in their face? And that fatigue increases this chance?
The easiest way to disrupt a caster in certain of my games is to hit them a few times, potentially killing them with their own spells.
Your argument doesn't make any sense, because the spell I was describing, fireball is a 3rd level spell, while black tentacles is a 4th level spell. Not the same resource, no reason not to use both. Besides the fact that the maximum range on one is 4 times that of the other. Fireball is unchanged in PRPG, black tentacles is now less effective against those same hobgoblins thanks to the CMB system.
A better comparison is ice storm, but since that wins at range, slows movement, and allows no save, it has advantages and disadvantages as well.
The reason the spiked chain is considered 'broken' is because it is frustrating mechanically for the DM to deal with. It exposes many of the frustrations of combat in one fell swoop. AoOs, threatened area, trip... etc. Not so much 'broken' as just frustrating.
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The reason the spiked chain is considered 'broken' is because it is frustrating mechanically for the DM to deal with. It exposes many of the frustrations of combat in one fell swoop. AoOs, threatened area, trip... etc. Not so much 'broken' as just frustrating.
That and it works really well (better than any other weapon) in small, cramped dungeons when it really should be worse.
10 level 4 hobgoblins = CR 11 encounter. Using a fourth level spell to do something meaningful in the fight is still superior to using a third level spell to do... little. Both are fairly minor resources at the level.
Jal, it sounds like you're just making house rules across the board to screw your players. So I'm going to avoid getting into that further as I have absolutely nothing nice to say about 'rocks fall' DMs.
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10 level 4 hobgoblins = CR 11 encounter. Using a fourth level spell to do something meaningful in the fight is still superior to using a third level spell to do... little. Both are fairly minor resources at the level.
Jal, it sounds like you're just making house rules across the board to screw your players. So I'm going to avoid getting into that further as I have absolutely nothing nice to say about 'rocks fall' DMs.
You use the 3rd level spell at range, and save your 4th level spell for when they get closer, which is what I was saying - direct damage spells are for before things get into it. I guess you could just sit there until they get within 200ft. though...
You're not reading my posts, Crusader.
1. Only in gritty games do I use these particular rules.
2. They are rules for simulation, not game balance.
3. The rules apply equally to PCs and NPCs.
4. House-rules do not equate to hand-of-god. "Rocks fall" is arbitrary.
Please don't make a statement that criticizes and generalizes my DM style, which my players appreciate and I was sharing with anyone who may be interested, and then say "I don't want to get into it further". If the best you can say is "That screws the players" then why bother to comment?
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Outside of Bo9S, XPH is uber broken. I hope PF re-does the Psionics handbook and bring their power level down about 10 steps.Wait. You judge psionics on behalf of broken combinations (Which exist in all system, a lot less in psionics) and direct damage? Is that supposed to be an argument?
And then, the Tome of battle. Where the hell did you get the idea its broken? I thought we were past that crap.
You're having a knee jerk reaction on two nigh-perfect systems. I just wanna ask; Do you think Warlocks are teh borken too?
Nigh-perfect? I don't know if you intentionally blind yourself to the broken stuff in these books or if you like the basic system and have never actually played, built or played with characters from them. There are absolutely broken things you can do with the books. The crazy thing is you don't even really have to break a sweat to find them too. ;p
Example: I played a Jade Phoenix guy at a con
I was doing like 3 attacks with his falchion that were doing like:
27d4 + 21d10 + 60 per round.
I felt like I was cheating in comparison to the other characters. The only other guy that was dropping dragons in one round was a warblade. Absolutely broken.
Nigh-perfect? I don't know if you intentionally blind yourself to the broken stuff in these books or if you like the basic system and have never actually played, built or played with characters from them. There are absolutely broken things you can do with the books. The crazy thing is you don't even really have to break a sweat to find them too. ;p
Example: I played a Jade Phoenix guy at a con
I was doing like 3 attacks with his falchion that were doing like:
27d4 + 21d10 + 60 per round.
I felt like I was cheating in comparison to the other characters. The only other guy that was dropping dragons in one round was a warblade. Absolutely broken.
Funny how personnal experience isn't worth crap, huh, because mine says otherwise. I am the happy player of a Warblade and a Psion, and I have yet to make the game explode.
Show me the numbers and equations. Then we'll how "broken" the system is.
Example: I played a Jade Phoenix guy at a con
I was doing like 3 attacks with his falchion that were doing like:
27d4 + 21d10 + 60 per round.
I felt like I was cheating in comparison to the other characters. The only other guy that was dropping dragons in one round was a warblade. Absolutely broken.
WHat Level were you? and can you break it down?
It sounds like a nova with Arcane Strike. Oh noes, he does enough direct damage to make enemies care about him!
I think some people have a problem with people making effective characters that Phonix character sounds sweet cause you are burning a 9th level spell to do the 27d4 so its not a big deal when dealing with that sort of character.
I think making effective PCs is a fun exercise and ussually is the goal of most people in my gaming group but I guess some people want to play a 20th level noble
Noble is a character concept, not a class. It can be applied to any class that can feasibly support it (gets the relevant skills as class skills).
Which means the only thing stopping you from making say... an Artificer noble is arbitrary skill lists and DM decisions regarding the above.
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WHat Level were you? and can you break it down?
Callister Pemtare, Master of the Jade Phoenix
Warblade 1st/Sorcerer 5th/Jade Phoenix Mage 10thS 12 (16) D 16 (20) C 16 (20) I 10 (14) W 9 (13) C 22 (26)
HP 12+5d4+10d6+80 ~147, Initiative +3, Speed 30 (40), BAB +13
AC 30, Touch 19, Flat-Footed 24
Fort +5+7+1+2+5 (+20), Ref +5+3+1+0+5 (+14), Will +8+3+4+0+5 (+20) [+2 to reflex saves when not flat footed]
Skills [20+15+30=65]
Concentration 19, Knowledge Arcana 6, Knowledge History 6, Knowledge Religion 6, Balance 4, Climb 4, Jump 4, Swim 4, Tumble 4, Diplomacy 4
Languages
Common
Feats
H-Power Attack, 1- Arcane Strike, 3- Force of Personality, 6-, 9-, 12-, 15-
Class Features
Spells CL14, Spells per day 9/8/8/8/8/7/6/4, Spells Known 9/5/5/4/4/3/2/1
Arcane Mark, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Open/Close, Ghost Sound, Mending, Message, Light, Mage Hand
Shield, Magic Missile, Enlarge Person, True Strike, Floating Disk
Resist Energy, Wraith Strike, Detect Thoughts, See Invisibility, Mirror Image
Fireball, Invisibility Sphere, Fly, Haste
Fire Shield, Invisibility Greater, Force Orb Greater, +1
Arc Lightning, Wall of Force, Dimension Door Greater, Blink Greater
True Seeing, Disintegration
+1 (7th)
Maneuvers IL 13, Maneuvers Known 8, Maneuvers readied 6, Stances Known 2 (+2 class feature stances)
Steel Wind (+1 attack), Action Before Thought (Concentration for Ref), Iron Heart Surge (end effect and +2 to next rounds attacks), Lightning Recovery (re-roll attack with +2 to hit), Mithral Tornado (attack all adjacent with +2 to hit), Iron Heart Focus (re-roll a save), White Raven Tactics (ally acts now and their initiative changes), Battle Leaders Charge (no AoO from charge and +10 damage)
Punishing Stance (+1d6 damage, -2 AC), Absolute Steel Stance (+10 speed, +2 AC)
Battle Clarity (INT to reflex saves), Weapon Aptitude, Arcane Wrath (burn spell for +4 to hit and 1d10 per spell level), Rite of Waking (+2 toall knowledge checks), Mystic Phoenix Stance (+1 CL, +2 dodge, DR 2x spell level burnt/Evil), Empowering Strike (Empower a spell after you hit someone with a martial strike), Firebird Stance (ER fire 10, +3 CL w/ fire spells, and create a fire aura 1d6 damage per spell level burnt DC 14+ CHA reflex for ½), Jade Phoenix Master (sense direction to nearest jade phoenix mage or jade phoenix mage candidate, perform rite of waking), Quickened Strike (Quicken a spell after you hit someone with a martial strike), Emerald Immolation (Explode in a searing 20d6 in a 20' radius ½ fire ½ raw arcane energy DC 19+CHA will or be dismissed to their native plane, you reappear after 1d6 rounds dazed for 1 round)
Equipment
Keen Falchion +4 [+20, 2d4+8, 18-20/x2]
Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt +4 [+8, +6 max dex, -0 armor check penalty] (25 lb)
Belt of Magnificence +4
Vest of Resistance +5
Ring of Protection +3
Amulet of Natural Armor +3
Explorers Outfit (0 lb)
Backpack (2 lb) [21 lb]
Bedroll (5 lb), 2 Torches (2 lb), 50’ of Silk Rope (5 lb), Waterskin (4 lb), 100 Page Book (3 lb)
Sack 1 (.5 lb) [1.5 lb] inside back pack
52gp, 9sp, 5cp
Sack 2 (.5 lb) [.5 lb] inside back pack
Belt pouch (.5 lb) [1 lb]
Flint and steel (0 lb), Ink vial and pen (0 lb), Small Steel Mirror (.5 lb)
Race- Human Male
Age- 34 Height- 5'11 Weight- 170 Hair- Red Eyes- brown Alignment- Chaotic Good
This character does not look that bad at face value. You know I don't know what feats I have looking at this character. ;p I think I went the shock trooper route at the game and then when I came back I deleted them, thinking I was going to build it different I didn't. Do whatever you want. It was a very difficult experience in the con game because here you had some characters that were woefully under this character's power level. It bread a lot of tension at the table. At the time I said just you wait 4e will fix all this garbage. Ha, how I was off on that one. It was just a shell game.
I don't even think I picked my seventh level spell for the game. Those slots were always going to be eaten up with Arcane strike and Arcane wrath anyway. YMMV, but I would consider this character over the top.
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Jade Phoenix Attack Options
(We will assume haste is in effect)
Arcane Strike + Arcane Wrath +32/+32/+27/+22 Damage if all hit 36d4 + 7d10 + 4d6 + 32
Arcane Strike + Wraithstrike + PA +15/+15/+10/+5 Damage if all hit 36d4 + 4d6 + 136
Arcane Strike + Steel Strike + Free Quickened Empowered Force Orb +28/+28/+28/+23/+18 Damage if all hit 45d4 + 4d6 + 40 + (14d6*1.5)
Note it is a Keen Falchion.
Have fun.
Has anyone looked at the nerfed wild shape in PF and compared the druid on that basis? Possibly he's Tier 2 now, whereas the cleric just got a very nice selective cure/inflict burst added to his other abilties.
P.S. I've used Jal's fatigued/exhausted hp rule before, with an additional Fort save to avoid being stunned 1 round when you dropped a band. It's absolutely awesome for stealth/investigation-heavy games with quick, deadly combat. It totally sucks for dungeon crawl scenarios.
The rule itself doesn't screw players; using the rule in an inappropriate campaign most certainly does.
That JPM is having to burn a 9th level spell every round to do that. Instead of using it to cast... well anything not named Meteor Swarm. Or maybe Summon Monster 9, but that's only because Gate is the same level and better.
The hp rule... that just makes combat even more about rocket launcher tag. Remove 25% of HP to render them stunned and therefore free targets? It doesn't even have to be in one hit (though at low levels especially you will see every single hit doing this).
Also, making Wild Shape weaker just reduces them from one of the highest Tier 1s to about the middle of Tier 1. After all, they're still full casters who can use all the tricks in the book, changing their arsenal on a daily basis. Being able to turn into an grizzly bear (with full grizzly bear stats) while shooting lightning bolts out of his ass is just icing on the cake. Also, they get wild shape a level earlier. In other words at best they went from being two melees and a spellcaster at the same time (Oh noes!) to just one of each.
The hp rule... that just makes combat even more about rocket launcher tag. Remove 25% of HP to render them stunned and therefore free targets? It doesn't even have to be in one hit (though at low levels especially you will see every single hit doing this).
Yes. You have to be VERY careful to avoid combat unless you know you can jump on someone and pummel them when they're down. It hyper-emphasizes planning, diplomacy, bluffing, and stealth, and makes a non-essential combat an eventual form of suicide. If you run a spy campaign, that really works nicely. Like I said, if your playing dungeon crawls or Paizo APs, you'd better not even think about using it.
Also, making Wild Shape weaker just reduces them from one of the highest Tier 1s to about the middle of Tier 1. After all, they're still full casters who can use all the tricks in the book, changing their arsenal on a daily basis. Being able to turn into an grizzly bear (with full grizzly bear stats) while shooting lightning bolts out of his ass is just icing on the cake. Also, they get wild shape a level earlier. In other words at best they went from being two melees and a spellcaster at the same time (Oh noes!) to just one of each.
Discount splatbook spells and look at how weak the beast shapes are...
Sounds like it emphasizes cowardice and scry and die tactics (even more than the standard) as the manifestation of that rocket launcher tag.
Also, most of the best Druid spells are core. Still Tier 1. To be Tier 2, by definition they'd have to have all the raw power of a Tier 1 but fewer options.
This is how you make them Tier 2.
Even the Wild Shape nerf... no more getting huge strength and dexterity for free, but he still gets the various utility things and such which means he still easily replaces the rogue (while still being able to cast spells), and the animal companion has the Fighter covered. It's not as big as you think it is.
Also, most of the best Druid spells are core. Still Tier 1. To be Tier 2, by definition they'd have to have all the raw power of a Tier 1 but fewer options.
This is how you make them Tier 2.
Even the Wild Shape nerf... no more getting huge strength and dexterity for free, but he still gets the various utility things and such which means he still easily replaces the rogue (while still being able to cast spells), and the animal companion has the Fighter covered. It's not as big as you think it is.
I tend to agree on the druid. Druids have a ton of great battlefield remodeling spells... people who want spells that do DD should probably look at the wizard (or sorcerer). Wild Shape is significantly less powerful than before but it's still an awesome bag of tricks.
Sounds like it emphasizes cowardice and scry and die tactics (even more than the standard) as the manifestation of that rocket launcher tag.
Yes. Everyone has an amulet of proof against location or a nondetect spell at the very least. It's not the sort of campaign that everyone enjoys; I can tell by the sneering tone of your response that you probably wouldn't. Some people really like it as a change in pace, though.
A lot of characters are "broken" when roleplay is ignored. Divine casters have the potential to be seriously abused if the DM doesn't enforce some simple restrictions that would/should be enforced by the deity granting spells to the casters. It's not really fair to look at the cleric or druid in a vacuum and say that their immense selection of abilities is unbalanced. These abilities are meant to represent the entire spectrum of alignments and gods, and they need to be varied widely. This requires a DM.
Likewise, it is completely unfair to compare "first turn damage" as an indicatior of how powerful a character is. A caster can front load a combat with lots of damage and special effects, but can't sustain that all day. A fighter can do most of his routine all day long, and has infinitely more damage potential than any caster. If you compare builds in both "one combat per day" and a "nine combats per day" situations, you'll probably find that things even out quite a bit between casters and non-casters.
As for the druid, the new Wild Shape rules reign them in A LOT. While it's easy to get variety of shapes and abilities, you just can't build a powerful caster and a powerful WS combatant at the same time. It used to be possible, but PF fixed that. The druid is still powerful, but much select which to be powerful at, rather that getting it all.
I don't think that any of the PF combos are really broken. I don't like the spiked chain, mostly because it overshadows more traditional weapons. I hate the fact that multiclassing still gives all of the "+2" bonuses to saves when you take a new level. This should have been fixed a long time ago, giving +2 to each save only once per character. It's far from broken, though. I also despise Devastating Blow, since it means that weapons with a crit range of "20" will now crit far more often than a scimitar.
When discussing PF, maybe we should stick to defining what is broken in regard to PF. There is a lot of non-core, non-PF material that can be mixed in, and some weird combo built up from several sources doesn't have anything to do with the rules this discussion board is really about.
-Scott
Sounds like it emphasizes cowardice and scry and die tactics (even more than the standard) as the manifestation of that rocket launcher tag.
Also, most of the best Druid spells are core. Still Tier 1. To be Tier 2, by definition they'd have to have all the raw power of a Tier 1 but fewer options.
This is how you make them Tier 2.
Even the Wild Shape nerf... no more getting huge strength and dexterity for free, but he still gets the various utility things and such which means he still easily replaces the rogue (while still being able to cast spells), and the animal companion has the Fighter covered. It's not as big as you think it is.
I do not like your logic. I think is it flawed big time. I also see you are a kind of player that I would not like in my games (big time powergamer).
You put numbers in placed that are not needed. All these Tier buisiness is not needed. Classes are not supposed to be looked by themselves, but in a group. There is no need to have balanced classes, there is no PvP in D&D. And this is not 4e. The balance design goal of 4e is the worst thing in that game.Also all your calculations only look at high levels, you do not care at all what is the balance at lower levels.
I wonder how many games you started at lvl 1 and played until lvl 20?!
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I won't say this is broken by any means, but I wish that you look at it a bit closer...
Cleric of Nethys 1/Barbarian <the rest>
domains: Destruction & Protection
Weapon of choice: Falchion
Before iterative attacks, the character can use the Destructive Smite almost every turn if able. It's a slight increase in the possibility to make a critical. With the barbarian levels the character gets means to boost damage, and critical chance being increased, it's worth it.
Just wanting you people to look at this. Cleric might become a dip-class too easily with the powerful 1st level abilities, not that I'm opposed to dipping at all.
Kirth: Making rocket launcher tag even worse does not interest me because it encourages disposable character syndrome.
Scotto: Show me the Fighter build with infinite HP. Oh wait, there isn't one. Oops, guess he has limited resources just like everyone else. Just, his aren't nearly as good. Also, dips favor non magical classes, and spiked chains reign supreme because everything else sucks.
Archangel: The Tier system balances parties against each other. Put a Druid and a Fighter in the same party, guess what? Fighter's going to be bored as hell, because he's outclassed by a landslide. Instead, go for a Wild Shape Ranger and a Warblade and you have the same concepts, but much more comparable abilities. That is its purpose, to try to get everyone on roughly the same page. You saying a Wild Shape Ranger and a Warblade are the same except in general scope of abilities?
By the way, the term is optimizer. And I do look at all levels. If I were only looking at high levels the Healer would rank much higher because they get Gate at level 17. Getting Gate at level 17 doesn't excuse 16 levels of crap though. And 'you become weaker as you gain levels' is simply not valid. This is what non casters do - they get weaker relative to the enemies because they do not get stronger fast enough. Linear vs Quadratic. Learn it.
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Scotto: Show me the Fighter build with infinite HP. Oh wait, there isn't one. Oops, guess he has limited resources just like everyone else. Just, his aren't nearly as good. Also, dips favor non magical classes, and spiked chains reign supreme because everything else sucks.
There is a fighter build with infinite hp (well, a LOT of hp, nothing in D&D is infinite). You boost charisma, cross-class Use Magic Device, and buy a wand of cure light wounds.
Kirth: Making rocket launcher tag even worse does not interest me because it encourages disposable character syndrome.
That's just fine; no one's forcing you to play. BTW, I wasn't trying to interest you personally; there are other people on the thread. Jal Dorak mentioned it and I corroborated that, with the right group of people and the right campaign premise, it can be fun. If it doesn't appeal to you, no sweat, don't play it. But it's fairly pointless to tell us it's "worse" than the games you play.
There is a fighter build with infinite hp (well, a LOT of hp, nothing in D&D is infinite). You boost charisma, cross-class Use Magic Device, and buy a wand of cure light wounds.Scotto: Show me the Fighter build with infinite HP. Oh wait, there isn't one. Oops, guess he has limited resources just like everyone else. Just, his aren't nearly as good. Also, dips favor non magical classes, and spiked chains reign supreme because everything else sucks.
Ok. Dependent on a limited resource, requires spending a long time on out of combat healing, doesn't always work (and if it fails, the wand shuts down for a day). It also assumes he can make it through combat on one tank of HP. Seeing as a melee brute's full attack will likely kill him in 2 rounds... have fun.
Which means that no, he doesn't get to keep going. 9 fights in a day just means anyone who slogs on dies, starting with non casters. Alternately, the fights are so easy it doesn't matter.
I won't say this is broken by any means, but I wish that you look at it a bit closer...
Cleric of Nethys 1/Barbarian <the rest>
domains: Destruction & Protection
Weapon of choice: FalchionBefore iterative attacks, the character can use the Destructive Smite almost every turn if able. It's a slight increase in the possibility to make a critical. With the barbarian levels the character gets means to boost damage, and critical chance being increased, it's worth it.
Just wanting you people to look at this. Cleric might become a dip-class too easily with the powerful 1st level abilities, not that I'm opposed to dipping at all.
This guy losses on BAB, get iterative attacks later, has less HP and is one level late in barbarian class features, not to mention he has less Rage points. Also by lvl 20 does not get lvl 20 barbarian rage.
I do not see how this is even unbalanced, not to mention broken...
Kirth: Making rocket launcher tag even worse does not interest me because it encourages disposable character syndrome.That's just fine; no one's forcing you to play. BTW, I wasn't trying to interest you personally; there are other people on the thread. Jal Dorak mentioned it and I corroborated that, with the right group of people and the right campaign premise, it can be fun. If it doesn't appeal to you, no sweat, don't play it. But it's fairly pointless to tell us it's "worse" than the games you play.
QFT
Archangel: The Tier system balances parties against each other. Put a Druid and a Fighter in the same party, guess what? Fighter's going to be bored as hell, because he's outclassed by a landslide. Instead, go for a Wild Shape Ranger and a Warblade and you have the same concepts, but much more comparable abilities. That is its purpose, to try to get everyone on roughly the same page. You saying a Wild Shape Ranger and a Warblade are the same except in general scope of abilities?
No it doesn't. It balances the parties for PvP, not for group play. It also uses flawed logic and does not represent all levels of play or either all kind of campaigns.
And, no. Fighter is not outclassed by a druid by a landslide. Druid might be better in melee after a few rounds of buffing, but there are a lot of situations where the party does not have few extra rounds, not to mention Antimagic Sphere/Antimagic Zones/Wildmagic Zones.
Druid is vurnerable to Dispel Magic while the Fighter is not.
I do not know what a Warblade is, but I mostly play core with maybe a few other PRCs from other books (none of the overpowered or broken ones).
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I do not know what a Warblade is, but I mostly play core with maybe a few other PRCs from other books (none of the overpowered or broken ones).
Basically it is a simultaneous attempt to playtest 4th Edition Power mechanics and to intentionally break 3rd Edition with classes that outperform those in the PHB and thus make claims of it being unbalanced more "legitimate".
Flavour wise, think "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon".
I do not know what a Warblade is, but I mostly play core with maybe a few other PRCs from other books (none of the overpowered or broken ones).Basically it is a simultaneous attempt to playtest 4th Edition Power mechanics and to intentionally break 3rd Edition with classes that outperform those in the PHB and thus make claims of it being unbalanced more "legitimate".
Flavour wise, think "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon".
Ahh. Something like Frenzied Beserker then?
And I never liked that movie :D (seem too unrealistic to me). Although I got used to that kind of movies later.
Well in my campaigns, each player has to clear any class, PRC, feat or spell that is non-core with me first. And I am a tough DM.
Even in 3.0e I changed Haste to work similar to the way it was done in 3.5e.
Not to mention I ban high level metamagic rods from my games (like greater quicken and maximise ones).
On the other hand I gave players more starting HP even before PF, and they get +1 to two ability scores each 4 levels. Not to mention they get one Second Wind per day. :) Got to love that SWSE :)
"And, no. Fighter is not outclassed by a druid by a landslide. Druid might be better in melee after a few rounds of buffing, but there are a lot of situations where the party does not have few extra rounds, not to mention Antimagic Sphere/Antimagic Zones/Wildmagic Zones.
Druid is vurnerable to Dispel Magic while the Fighter is not.
I do not know what a Warblade is, but I mostly play core with maybe a few other PRCs from other books (none of the overpowered or broken ones)."
Hahaha. No. Incorrect. First, the animal companion is about as good, or better without buffs. This means the Druid comes with a free Fighter.
Antimagic field is a high level, self only spell. Which means... wait for it... a high level enemy caster just shut themselves down, and unless you're stupid enough to stay within 10' of them it doesn't even effect you. Congratulations. Wild Magic is pure DM fiat. Rocks fall, everyone dies is not an argument.
Dispelling the Druid is doing him a favor. By the way, they can Dispel the Fighter too since he needs buffs just to try to keep up. They may or may not be doing him a favor then.
A Warblade is how you make melee decent as a 1-20 character without power dipping. Not great, just decent. As in good enough to be played and work, but nowhere near broken. It doesn't 'replace' core melees because core melees were already replaced. It is a bug fix, as they heavily screwed up the first time.
Didn't we get past the ToB = Anime stuff a long time ago? Hell, even if it were anime if it takes borrowing from anime to make melee non trivial then give me my Narutard inspired Weaboo Fightin Magicks damnit! Course it isn't, so that just fails.
By the way, strict core only crap is just more fighters don't get nice things. That hasn't changed.
I think we have gotten way off here showing broken characters is a good thing. It helps in multiple ways one it shows DMs this character will be trouble and could unballance the game. But on the other hand Optimized characters (Broken) is good for players to make because it makes them alot more effective characters.
Its gotten to the point in our group that you plan your character Backwards you design your finished goal and work back. When you dont do this characters seem to be a waste of table space as the player who do this are much more effective in the game. I dont think there is any thing wrong with this. Its just how the game is with all the outside sources there is possiblities for very broken characters
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That JPM is having to burn a 9th level spell every round to do that. Instead of using it to cast... well anything not named Meteor Swarm. Or maybe Summon Monster 9, but that's only because Gate is the same level and better.
This guys is 16th level with a CL or 14 and ML of 13. So he cannot burn a 9th level spell only 7th.
Arcane Strike feat is what makes this character broken. Wraithstrike is also what makes this character broken. It also, has a neat power that deals 20d6 damage, 20' radius, no save.
A Warblade is how you make melee decent as a 1-20 character without power dipping. Not great, just decent. As in good enough to be played and work, but nowhere near broken. It doesn't 'replace' core melees because core melees were already replaced. It is a bug fix, as they heavily screwed up the first time.
The funny thing is you have a very different experience than I do with this book.
7th level spell = 7d4 with Arcane Strike. You'd do more if you actually cast that 7th level spell. 70 damage is not significant. And isn't that the one that blows you up?
*lay on hands* Fighters getting nice things is not a bad thing!
*crusader chant* Fighters getting nice things is not a bad thing!
*channel divinity* Fighters getting nice things is not a bad thing!
...Did the intervention work?
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7th level spell = 7d4 with Arcane Strike. You'd do more if you actually cast that 7th level spell. 70 damage is not significant. And isn't that the one that blows you up?
Arcane Strike + Wraithstrike + PA +15/+15/+10/+5 Damage if all hit 36d4 + 4d6 + 136
Please explain, how a 7th level sorcerer spell slot can do more than that?Yeah you blow up, neat power (not overpowered).
You're still thinking direct damage is good. Apparently not.
Now let's see...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSpray.htm
4 effects are SoD, one is pick two, the others just do minor to moderate damage. It covers a fairly big area. I'd say it's better.
Now, I can pick out every SoD of 7th level or lower, but I think that's about good enough to dispel this DD myth.
That's a nice gish you have here. Good job.
Now, it saddens me. The "broken" part of your gish stems from a waste of spells through Arcane Strike (Which would be better served as actual casting), not ToB. The material is good, yet you have to blame it for everything.
To everyone who never read the Book of Nine Swords: Before listening to any random internet guy's rant, read the book. You'll see he got a knee-jerk reaction.
BTW: 1) Why 36d4? Shouldn't it be 28d4, or did I miss something?
2) Emerald Immolation has a save, deals about 70 pts of damage
and can only be used once a week.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Hahaha. No. Incorrect. First, the animal companion is about as good, or better without buffs. This means the Druid comes with a free Fighter.
People keep saying this, and I'm afraid I don't understand it.
A 13th-Level Druid may have, say, a dire rat with 9d8+1 HD (with a 12 CON, that's about 47 hp), AC 25, 14 Strength and 21 Dexterity, with Evasion, and a +4 Morale bonus to some enchantments. It knows 5 free tricks. (Do you want it to attack undead or aberrations? That's two tricks right there.)
How is that comparable to a 13th-Level fighter?
(Your Druid could trade over to a CR7 Dire Bear, which has more hit points and a nastier attack routine, but she'll need to spend time training the poor beast, because it only has 1 bonus trick).
Didn't we get past the 'ToB = Anime' stuff a long time ago? Hell, even if it were anime ... Course it isn't, so that just fails."
By which you mean, "Respectfully, -Archangel-, that hasn't been my experience."
Don't assume the Druid is stupid (A dire rat? Who would take that?) and do not put words in my mouth. The ToB = anime thing has been ongoing. I meant what I said exactly as I said it. The impatience is entirely intentional to reflect my loathing repeating myself when it doesn't even register the first time.
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A bunch of stuff and then "What is Pun Pun"
Pun Pun was a theoretical exercise in what could be accomplished within the rules as written without any thought to playing it in the game or that any sane person would either try to play it or allow it in their games. The full build can be found on character op, but it takes a Kobold named Pun Pun, uses the Pazuzu wish trick by optimizing for Knowledge the Planes, and then relies upon the official interpretation of a power possesed by the Sarrukh in Serpent Kingdoms to close the circle. If I remember right it also required taking a lizard familiar. I haven't read that build in a long time, but it is easily found with a google search.
In any event, it essentially creates an infinite power up cascade where you can increase every aspect of your characters ability scores, attack bonuses, spellcasting, damage, etc. etc. all using the loop and starting at third level. It is worth reading through once just to see the extremes you can take things to with the 3.5 raw. Even the author of the build said that it was never intended to be something even a power crazed lunatic would play but more as a mental exercise to see how far he could push it. The build has been checked and rechecked multiple times on Character Op to make sure that it does in fact work raw and without any wanky rules interpretations required.
(Thats the end of the stuff specifically directed at the quoted post, the rest is just my general thoughts on the topic of broken things in 3.5 that need to be fixed)
When talking about what is broken in 3.5 that needs to be addressed in PFRPG, I think you have to start by bridging the gap between casters and everyone else. Once you have that down and can use it as the core assumption in monster and encounter design you are a long way towards fixing what was wrong with 3.5. There will always be players who find loop holes or rules that let them do really strong stuff. At some level you have to acknowledge that the average DM will just not allow some of the really crazy stuff. Where we need to focus our energy is on the stuff that is in the core that needs to be fixed or made better. Power disparity between casters and non casters is towards the top of that list I think. I am opposed to just nerfing casters, so I think it has to be improved by making everyone else stronger.
Secondly, I think any ability that clearly lets a player do things that is out of line with the game or that allows them to clearly ruin the game for others is where the problems lie. As a DM, you don't want to spend what time you have to play and prep for games just dealing with a broken character that is making swiss cheese out of the gaming experience for everyone. CoDzilla is a key character build in core that needs to be addressed, although I think they have done that to an extent with the nerfs to some of the spells and class abilities of Clerics and Druids. Arcane casters still have some nutty stuff they can do, but some of that is being addressed by the changes to save or die and save or suck spells. Melee types are getting more things they can do in battle and that is good. Some of the obvious suboptimal classes have gotten big boosts like the Bard. Others like the Monk still need work I think. Once we get to the genuine playtest character class section of the playtest I think we can hit that harder. Spells is another area I expect there to be vigorous effort in during the beta test.
Anyway, those are my takes.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Don't assume the Druid is stupid (A dire rat? Who would take that?)
I've taken a dire rat as a companion. They're more versatile than wolves. What companion isn't "stupid"?
...and do not put words in my mouth. The ToB = anime thing has been ongoing. I meant what I said exactly as I said it. The impatience is entirely intentional to reflect my loathing repeating myself when it doesn't even register the first time.
I correct your tone of voice because we are all civil, polite, and patient with one another on these boards.
I am 'civil, polite, and patient' as long as the following conditions are met:
1: The person isn't deliberately attacking me (not happening).
2: The person isn't just ignoring all facts and evidence to the contrary as if I had said nothing (is happening).
The first warrants immediate counter attacks. The second takes a much longer trip up the annoyance meter. I am mildly annoyed. Deal with it.
He's also quite capable of standing up for himself if he has an issue with me. He does not need others to do it for him.
By the way, wolves can trip automatically. That makes them useful.
I am 'civil, polite, and patient' as long as the following conditions are met:
1: The person isn't deliberately attacking me (not happening).
2: The person isn't just ignoring all facts and evidence to the contrary as if I had said nothing (is happening).
As long as (2) doesn't become "The person isn't just ignoring my opinion as if I had said nothing," you'll be OK. Step over that line, though, and everyone will be down on you, not just Chris (whose opinions do carry a good deal of weight with the long-term regulars here, by the way).
I am well aware of the difference between fact and opinion and have made sure my language clearly reflects whichever is the case.
Actual example:
Fact: Sunder is screwing yourself via wasting actions, breaking your own stuff, or both.
Opinion: I don't like Sunder.
Solution: Make it so that Sundered stuff can be repaired on the cheap. I still won't like it, but it fixes the factual problems with it so that it is no longer objectively flawed. Well actually, it only fixes some of said issues. It still either ends up being too easy to break stuff, or too hard to be worth it. But it's a start.